FIRST PUBLIC HEARING
NEW YORK, October 10, 1911
Present — HON. ALFRED E. SMITH,
Vice-Chairman.
MR. SAMUEL GOMPERS.
HON. CYRUS W. PHILLIPS.
MISS MARY E. DREIER.
MR. ROBERT E. DOWLING.
ABRAM I. ELKUS, Counsel to the Commission.
BERNARD L. SHIENTAG, Assistant Counsel.
The act creating the Commission was read by Vice-Chairman Smith.
The VICE-CHAIRMAN: The Commission being present and ready to proceed,
we would like to hear
from counsel.
MR. ELKUS: We all regret, of course, that Senator Wagner, by reason
of his illness, is unable to be
present and act as chairman of the Commission. It is unfortunate that
the occurrence of a catastrophe is often necessary to awaken a people to
its true sense of responsibility. The Triangle Waist Company fire of March,
1911, with its attendant horrors and loss of life shocked both city and
State. The loss of one hundred and forty-three lives in one factory fire
brought to the attention of the public with terrible force the dangers
that daily threaten the lives of
hundreds of thousands of employees in manufacturing establishments
in the City of New York and elsewhere throughout the State....
MR. ELKUS: With your permission, Mr. Chairman, we will call Mr. Croker
as the first witness.
EDWARD F. CROKER, called as a witness, being
first duly sworn, testifies as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. ELKUS:
Q. Chief, will you tell the Commissioners just how long you have been
in the Fire Department, what
positions you have held, etc., so that we may have it upon the record?
A. I was appointed fireman June 22nd, 1884, and went through the various
grades of the department from time to time, until I arrived at the position
of Chief of the department; I served in that capacity for twelve years
and retired May first of the present year.
Q. During that time, did you make any study of the conditions of manufacturing
in New York City, from
a fireman's standpoint?
A. I did, sir.
Q. Will you tell the Commissioners, briefly, just what occurred during
that time that you were in the Fire
Department - the changes that occurred, in the methods of manufacturing,
the kinds of buildings formerly
used, and the kind that are used at this time?
A. The building formerly used, say twenty years ago, was the ordinary
four and five story brick building, wooden floor beams, wooden floors,
etc., up to the present class of buildings.
Q. There were no elevators in the old buildings?
A. Very few; stairways ere used - wooden stairways, not elevators.
Q. Did they have fire-escapes - were they fireproof as a rule or not?
A. No, sir. They have gradually improved to the so-called fireproof
building, which consists of buildings that you are all probably acquainted
with around New York to-day, from twelve to twenty-five stories high.
Q. These buildings from twelve to twenty-five stories are what are called
loft buildings?
A. So-called loft buildings.
Q. They vary in size from twenty-five feet wide to one hundred feet
deep, or more?
A. The average is fifty to seventy-five feet.
Q. Wide, and the depth eighty-five or ninety feet?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, in these loft buildings, there are usually a great many occupants,
are there not?
A. Generally there is a different occupant on each floor.
Q. And in some of the buildings is manufacturing carried on on each
floor?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you give us an idea of the kinds of different occupants - the
different kinds of businesses that will
be found in a ten or twelve story building of the kind that you have
referred to?
A. Manufacturers of ladies' shirt waists, manufacturer of ladies' underwear,
manufacturer of ladies' cloaks, manufacturer of ladies' suits, and the
manufacture of clothing.
Q. All under one roof?
A. All under one roof.
Q. Can you tell me whether or not these people use machines - many of
them power machines?
A. They all use machines; yes sir.
Q. How many employees are there in these buildings - in these buildings
that you refer to?
A. Anywhere from 150 to 300.
Q. On each floor?
A. On each floor.
Q. So that sometimes in a ten-story building you will find the extreme
would be, say, twenty-five hundred
persons in one building?
A. Yes.
Q. That would be almost a town in itself?
A. (No answer.)
Q. Are these lofts open, or divided off by partitions - what kind of
partitions are they?
A. Most are open lofts, and they are divided off - if they are divided
off, they are divided by 3/8 inch pins.
Q. Now, about the material used in the manufacture of goods in these
buildings that you refer to - what
about that?
A. All inflammable.
Q. Now, about the method of egress in ingress in these buildings - what
is there so far as elevators are
concerned?
A. It all depends upon the size of the building.
Q. Just tell us.
A. Take a 50x100 foot building. If it is on a corner, it will probably
have two stairways, one on each street, and a passenger elevator.
Q. Will you describe the location of the stairs with references to the
elevator?
A. The stairway is generally built around the elevator.
Q. They wind around the elevators?
A. They wind around the elevators.
Q. Now, as a rule, are the staircases divided from the elevator by walls
and partitions?
A. some are and some are not.
Q. Now, will you tell us about your experience in these buildings, if
anything is done as a rule to protect them from fire?
A. Generally there is nothing done. They use the waste, oils and such
things as that; oily waste especially is very combustible.
Q. I believe a great many of these employees smoke cigarettes and cigars?
A. It is almost impossible to stop it; a cigarette is a tonic.
Q. They consider it a tonic?
A. They consider it a tonic.
Q. Tell us about the fire-escapes - of the things you have seen?
A. Very few of the factories have outside fire-escapes; very few; they
have very few outside fire-escapes, and where they have them they are inadequate.
They use the stairways. They call those things the fire-escapes; they also
use the elevators, and they call them fire-escapes. An elevator in a building
is generally a fire shaft.
Q. Do you mean to say that under the law they can permit an elevator
to be called a fire-escape?
A. They don't permit it to be called a fire-escape, but they use it
as such and mark it as such.
Q. In the case of fire?
A. In the case of fire.
Q. Aren't they required in a ten-story loft building to have exterior
fire-escapes?
A. It lies within the discretion of the Superintendent of Buildings
- that is, in what they call a fireproof building.
Q. In other words, if a building is fireproof, the Superintendent may
not require them to have exterior
fire-escapes; and in that case they are allowed to use the elevators
and stairs?
A. Elevator and stairs.
Q. In these various buildings where there are exterior fire-escapes
built, access is had to them from the
window?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What has been your experience, Chief, with reference to the use of
these fire-escapes in case of fire? Are they used at all?
A. A great many will use them, but they are not used to advantage. Women,
and especially children - girls, such as work in these buildings, cannot
descend them.
Q. They cannot get down on them?
A. Not readily.
Q. Is it your idea if they are to continue, they should be made with
a regular staircase?
A. With regular staircase, and made to extend away from the building
- not close to the building.
Q. How far away?
A. At least four feet.
Q. Is there any other suggestion that you have to give the Commission
as to the use of fire-escapes?
A. There have been some cases where fire-escapes, by being very crowded,
have pulled away from the building. Fire-escape should be built into the
building by having the floor beams extend out to the proper width.
Q. That is, the beams should extend out from the building and the fire-escapes
supported on them?
A. Supported on them.
Q. Now, about the terminus of a fire-escape - what has been your knowledge
of that?
A. A great many terminate in a court or in a rear yard, and it is absolutely
impossible for the occupants to escape when they go down that far.
Q. That is, after they get down the fire-escape, they are in an enclosed
yard?
A. In an enclosed yard.
Q. What have you to suggest as a remedy for that?
A. They should extend to, or have an entrance direct to the street;
and in a great many cases, where the window is would make the best fire-escape
by putting a door there, and running a bridge from one building to the
other.
Q. From one roof to another?
A. Or out to another street.
Q. From the rear of one building to the rear of another?
A. By running a bridge.
Q. That would be very inexpensive?
A. Yes, make a very good fire-escape.
Q. That means getting permission, of course, of both parties, does it
not?
A. I believe so.
Q. With reference to the window or door leading to the fire-escape,
should the window be cut down and made a door?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That should be made to open inward or outward?
A. Outward.
Q. And that should be made compulsory; is that your view? A. In all
these cases, it should be mandatory. I find in my experience in and around
these buildings, that a great majority of the people who occupy the various
establishments would rather take a chance on the loss of life than spend
five or ten dollars to prevent it. Is that your experience?
A. Positively.
Q. How about the shutters leading to the fire-escape?
A. They should not be allowed.
Q. They should not be permitted?
A. No, sir.
Q. A fire-escape window or door leading to the fire-escape be constructed?
A. They should be set in metal frame.
Q. Do you recommend that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, Chief, about the occupation of these buildings. In your experience
in fighting fires, what have you found to be the condition of these buildings
so far as their occupation is concerned - material and machinery on the
floors - just tell the Commission what your experience has been.
A. Some buildings you go into are kept nicely, but the majority of others
you go in are unkept; they are dirty; they are unclean; their stock is
strewed all over the floor. Where they use machinery there are no passageways
whatsoever.
Q. Tell the Commission about the difficulties in fighting a fire of
that kind.
A. In a great many cases there is only about one door on that loft you
can get in. Goods are piled up in front of the windows, in front of the
doors, and you have got to use a battering ram to get into any of them.
Q. How about the passageways being blocked?
A. Piled right to the ceiling. Many a time the firemen get into places
in the night time and there is no room for a man to go through the passages.
Q. How about the passageway to a fire-escape? Do you find those blocked
or open?
A. Find them blocked.
Q. How about locked doors to the staircases? Have you found that?
A. Oh, yes, plenty of them. The doors going to the roof are locked.
They pay absolutely no attention to the fire hazard or to the protection
of the employees in these buildings. That is their last consideration.
Q. What do you suggest should be done with reference to these locked
doors, and things like that?
A. There should be mandatory legislation to compel them to keep the
doors unlocked during working hours. All doors should be opened up. Aisles
should be kept clear, obstructions should be moved away from doorways,
and windows and so forth; and in case of any violations of such a law there
should be a severe penalty attached to it.
Q. Imprisonment or fine?
A. You can't make it too heavy. You have got a class of people doing
business constantly, not only in New York City, with whom you've got to
deal severely, and give them to understand that there is the law, and they
have got to obey it, for the protection of property and the people that
they employ. If you don't have drastic legislation you can't get anything
from them.
Q. What have you got to say about wooden partitions?
A. If I had my say I wouldn't allow a piece of wood in sight in any
buildings of any description.
Q. You mean in the shape of a partition or a table?
A. In the shape of a partition, or window trims or door trims, or baseboards
- nothing at all in the construction of a building should be of wood.
Q. Tell the Commission your reasons for that statement.
A. The reason is because all wood is inflammable and it only adds fuel
to a fire which may occur.
Q. Well, do you believe that there would be less loss of life if those
rules were followed?
A. I do, sir.
Q. Were you present at the fire of the Triangle Waist Company building?
A. I was, sir.
Q. And you made a careful investigation of that fire, did you not?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Now, just a word about that. Was that a loft building of the kind
you described?
A. Yes, sir
Q. How many stories high?
A. Twelve stories.
Q. And this fire was on one or more floors in that building?
A. It originated on the ninth.
Q. And they had an out-door fire-escape there, didn't they?
A. On the rear.
Q. And it led down into an enclosed yard?
A. It led down into an enclosed yard.
Q. What did you ascertain were the facts there with reference to closed
doors.
A. Well, from what we could find -what was left of that place up there
- I don't think there was any doubt there was a partition inside of the
doorway leading out into the Green Street side of that building, and from
the indication of the number of people we found where that partition was,
that door was locked, and the door that opened into it, opened on the inside.
Q. Was it locked with a lock and key, or a bolt?
A. A lock and key, but it opened in.
Q. Was it a wooden door?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you referred in you testimony to the fireproof building. What
has been your experience as to
these buildings being actually fireproof?
A. They are only so-called fireproof, fireproof by name.
Q. What is the actual fact, do they burn or not?
A. They are not fireproof. They burn and they make a hot fire.
Q. Who says they are fireproof? That is a provision of law, isn't it?
A. A provision of the law.
Q. Then, as I understand you, Chief, the materials which go into making
these buildings do not make a fireproof building?
A. No, sir.
Q. Well, is it possible to create, to erect a fireproof building?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Of what material would it be?
A. Brick, stone or terra cotta. Steel construction with metal trim and
concrete floors. I would say eliminate wood, and use the steel trim and
the concrete floors.
Q. Well, as I understand you, what makes these buildings known as fireproof
buildings, non-fireproof is the fact that the trim of the interior floors
are wood or inflammable material.
A. Yes. Now, bear in mind the fact, counselor, that the shells of these
buildings may be brick and steel, and that they are advertised as fireproof,
just to fool the public. But the inside of the building contains inflammable
material
and burns with great intensity.
Q. So that when a fire occurs the inside of the building burns out and
leaves the shell which is fireproof?
A. Yes.
Q. And it is your recommendation that if they want to have a fireproof
building, a building that is
absolutely fireproof, they should not have any lumber in it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, can any reliance be placed upon these elevators as fire-escapes?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not?
A. Because they can only carry a very few people in the first place,
and they burn up quickly and the heat and smoke become so intense that
the operator can generally make only one or two trips after a fire starts.
Q. After a fire?
A. After a fire starts, and it has been my experience that in the excitement,
after they leave the floor in which the fire occurs, they generally leave
the door open, and people walk into the elevator shaft.
Q. That is to say they leave the door open and unguarded, and people
fall down the shaft?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now in this Asch Building fire did that occur or did the people jump
down the shaft as a means to try
to escape?
A. Well, we found them in the shaft. We don't know how they got there....
Q. With reference to saving life after a fire occurs, the Department
does use fire nets, doesn't it, where
people have to jump?
A. Yes.
Q. Have those proved useful, or are they not strong enough, or have
they been able to make them strong enough?
A. They are made as strong as they know how to make them, and they has
been very satisfactory. We have never had one failure up to the Asch building.
Q. What happened there?
A. They went through the net.
Q. What was the reason of that?
A. The extreme height.
Q. That is because the bodies came from such a height the net could
not held them, or did the material give way, or did the people who held
the nets?
A. Both; they all went in a pile together. It would be impossible to
hold those people as they fell there; when they hit the sidewalk or iron
gratings, the impact of their bodies was so great they drove right through
the iron gratings into the cellar.
Q. Just describe to the Commission the fire nets used at the Asch fire.
They are held by how many people, and how large are they?
A. They are ten feet in circumference, and they are held by ten or twelve
men, or more if you can get them around it, and you can catch - I have
seen people time after time jump from the fifth, sixth or seventh floor
and not get a scratch.
Q. In this case, although they were held by the same number of people,
and the material was strong enough - strong as it could be - by the way,
what are they made of?
A. The best canvas that can be purchased, and they are hung on springs.
When you strike into the net you do not get a sudden jar, but get a spring
effect. The rim is heavy steel.
Q. In the Asch fire the net went right down with all the people holding
it?
A. Yes.
Q. From the impact of the bodies?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you any suggestion to make to the Commission with reference
to the different kinds of fire nets which would hold this impact of the
body?
A. I do not think they could manufacture anything that would stand the
impact of a body from that height.
Q. Would it be possible to have a fire net on poles, for instance, that
would give enough way to it, so that a body coming from a great height
would be able to sag enough without breaking?
A. The time you get that erected and ready for the people to jump, they
would be burned to death. You have to have
something for immediate use. They ought to have something there they
can get at in case of necessity before the arrival of the department.
Q. That is to say, there ought to be a way of getting out before the
Department got there?
A. Oh, yes; you cannot wait. Like the Asch building fire, they could
not wait until the arrival of the Fire Department, even if we had
the appliances. They were jumping out of the windows before the department
arrived.
Q. So that as a practical matter if people are obliged to jump out of
the windows of a loft building which is over five or six stories in height,
there is no way of saving their lives?
A. Well, I won't say five or six.
Q. I say above five or six, or seven or eight?
A. Seven or eight stories high, if they jump, I don't know of anything
you can manufacture that will hold them. I saw it figured out for a body
weighing 150 pounds, they struck over two tons from that height when they
hit the sidewalk. I don't know but it was over that....
Q. The Building Department is responsible that the building is safe,
and that the floor has the carrying capacity?
A. The fault in New York City is that there is nobody responsible for
anything. The Fire Department is not responsible; the Building Department
is not responsible; the Police Department is not responsible; the Health
Department is not responsible. If anything happens they are all stepping
from under.
Q. In other words, when anything happens, each one blames it on the
other department, and it would be your idea, and your recommendation to
the Commission, that the responsibility should be fixed upon some one particular
head of some one department?
A. Yes.
Q. And at the same time give him the corresponding power?
A. The Asch Building fire started with the Fire Department. The Fire
Department says, "Our records are all right; everything we ordered was
complied with." The Building Department says, "Our records are all right."
The Health Department says, "Our records are all right." The Police Department
have not got through investigating yet, and I don't
think they ever will and nobody is responsible. There are just as many
factories in New York in the same condition as the Asch Building was and
probably is today.
MINUTES OF THE HEARING OF THE NEW YORK
STATE FACTORY INVESTIGATING COMMISSION,
HELD IN THE CITY HALL AT 10:30 A.M.
FIRST PUBLIC HEARING
(Continuation of the October 10, 1911 hearing)
G. I. HARMON, called as a witness, and being
duly sworn, testified as follows:
Examined by Mr. ELKUS:
Q. What is your name, sir?
A. G. I. Harmon.
Q. Are you an inspector in the Labor Department?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you been there?
A. Fifteen years last August....
Q. When was it that you examined the Triangle building prior to the
fire?
A. The 27th of February.
Q. 1911?
A. 1911.
Q. Now, when did the fire take place?
A. Some time in March; I don't recall the date.
Q. Then you examined the building within two weeks of the fire or so?
A. Well, I don't know whether it was two months or two weeks, but it
was a very short time.
Q. Within a month we will say?
A. Yes.
Q. What examination did you make of that building?
A. I made a regular inspection of each factory in the building.
Q. What did that consist of? What did you do?
A. I first go to the office and introduce myself. I get the data that
I have to have - the number of people employed, men and women. If they
have children there, I want to get their certificates, see their register,
ascertain all the information in the office, then get someone to go with
me and go through the factory. If they have machinery, look at the machinery.
In the Triangle building underneath the table I found cuttings there, and
then I looked into the sanitary conditions, examined the toilets, to see
that there are enough of them, and that they are clean, and the number
employed there, to see if there are enough of them. I see that they have
a dressing room if they have girls employed. If they have a fire-escape,
I see that the windows to the fire-escape are open and free, raise them
and try them. If there are doors to the halls I open the doors and see
that they are unlocked. I look into the general sanitary condition of the
entire building, the care of sinks and water, and see that their drinking
water is all right.
Q. How long did it take you, for instance, to examine the Triangle Waist
building. They have three lofts?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did it take you?
A. Possibly an hour and a half to two hours.
Q. And were any of aisles which led to the fire-escapes blocked by material?
A. No. The aisles that lead to the fire-escape, you mean? Between the
machines, you mean?
Q. Yes.
A. Not that I recall. If there was, I made a note of it. I may have
made a note of it in my book, and I may have not. The only way I could
tell is by referring to my book.
Q. Were any of the doors locked which led to the stairs?
A. They were not.
Q. Did they have locks on them?
A. Yes.
Q. Before you went around to examine this factory, you went to the office
and asked for someone in authority and told them your business and what
you were there for?
A. Yes.
Q. So that they had plently (sic) of time to remedy any defects that
existed temporarily while you were there?
A. Yes.
Q. So, as far as the locking of the doors was concerned, for even material
in the aisles, that might have been hastily cleaned up or remedied for
the moment?
A. That might have been.
Q. Well, don't you think it would have been better and a fairer examination
if you didn't tell them who you were, and just walked through?
A. Well, in the first place, it is sometimes difficult to get into a
place of that kind without telling them who you are.
Q. Well, I mean if you had no difficulty in getting in?
A. Well, you have to get a certain amount of information.
Q. Do you mean about the number of employees, how many men and how many
women and so forth?
A. Yes. You go into a perfectly strange shop that you were never in
you life, and you would be pretty near lost unless you asked questions
of somebody.
Q. You wouldn't be lost in trying to find where the staircase was, and
whether doors were locked or not?
A. You have got to find a lot of other things; you have got to find
the toilets and the dressing rooms, and you have got to find a lot of other
things; you have got to find the toilets and the dressing rooms, and you
have got to find if they have children employed, you have got to call upon
and find the children.
Q. You can ask any employee where they are?
A. Sometimes you get an answer and sometimes you don't. Some of them
are foreigners.
Q. And it may become necessary to have someone who understood a foreign
language with you?
A. I do-- I take an interpreter very often.
Q. You, of course, could just as well get this information about the
number of people in the factory afterwards as you could in the beginning.
You see what we are trying to point out, Mr. Harmon, is that these conditions
which exist in factories are not discovered because the inspectors inform
somebody in authority that they are there, and the persons in authority
know what you are looking for. Now, take the question of filth, you discover
that in many cases, haven't you?
A. Why, yes.
Q. And it looks, when you discover it in factories, to be pretty permanent?
A. Well, as a rule.
Q. And you order that it be cleaned?
A. Yes.
Q. And whether they comply with your order you generally don't know,
do you?
A. Well, that depends on where I am, and what the conditions are. Sometimes
I stayed there until they complied with that -- right there.
Q. And then they may go right back into the same condition?
A. I think they do, in a shop of that kind.
Q. Well, what do you suggest can be done there?
A. Why, my experience is that when that man has been made an example
of, that he doesn't require so much attention afterwards.
Q. That is the only thing you have to suggest?
A. I am talking about a man keeping his shop clean.
Q. Well, now, go back to this particular Triangle Waist Company loft.
Did you discover any violations of the law when you were there at all?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What did you discover?
A. Well, the shafting under the machine tables was not guarded; that
is, a portion of it was not guarded, and part of it was. They had no dressing
rooms for the girls, that is, that complied with the law, and the lights
in the halls were inadequate.
Q. That is, the lights in the hall which went downstairs?
A. Yes, the hall should be kept lighted.
Q. Did you find the doors leading to the stairs opening inward?
A. They all opened in, every one of them.
Q. Did you report that to the Department?
A. I did.
Q. Did you order it remedied?
A. I did not. In my judgment it wasn't practicable to open out into
the hall because the halls were too narrow, and I so reported.
Q. Did you order sliding doors put in?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you order a vestibule door put in?
A. I did not.
Q. Do you realize that if those doors had not opened inward there might
not have been such a loss of life?
A. Well, the idea of sliding doors is new since. Yes, I realize that.
I know that. I knew that before. The doors should swing out.
Q. How wide were the spaces between the wall and the end of each row
of machines where the employees had to walk in order to get to the doors
or fire-escapes?
A. Well, you are asking me questions that it is hard for me to answer.
The only thing that I can rely on is the record I have in my book, and
my book makes no record of anything of that kind at all.
Q. Didn't you bring your report here with you?
A. Yes, I have it.
Q. Well, look at it.
A. That does not show what you are asking; it doesn't show the space
between the end of the tables and the wall.
Q. The space there ought to be wide enough for the employees to pass
through easily in case of fire or in
ordinary cases of panic?
A. Yes.
Q. Isn't it a fact that the space was only eighteen inches?
A. Between the end of the table and the wall?
Q. Between the end of the table and the wall.
A. Well, between the end of the table and the wall on the Washington
Place side that may be possible.
Q. Well, that is where they have to go, these employees had to go?
A. I beg your pardon. They had to go the other way to get out, they
had to pass between the tables. At the end of the table on the north side
of the building, what is known as the north side of the building, there
was ample room there, there was no aisle there, and they used the Greene
Street stairway, they didn't use the Washington Place Stairway.
Q. Couldn't they use the Washington Place stairway in case of fire?
A. Yes.
Q. Wasn't it your duty to see that there was adequate space for the
employees to reach either staircase, whether Washington or Greene Street
in case of fire or other hazardous cause?
A. Well, yes, it is my duty, yes.
Q. Well, then, didn't you find that the space leading to the Washington
Place stairs between the end of the
tables and machines and the wall was only eighteen inches, and that
that was inadequate?
A. I did not measure the space, but I think that that is about right.
Q. And that was an inadequate space?
A. Well, that depends altogether on conditions. That is an adequate
space for people not in a hurry.
Q. Well, when there is a fire, people are in a hurry and your duty was
to examine this space to find out whether the people could get out in a
hurry? A. I know, but there were other ways besides that aisle, that 18-inch
aisle.
Q. I know, but doesn't the law require you to find that every way out
is a proper way?
A. If you can show me that in the law, I would be glad to see it.
Q. Doesn't the law require you to inspect and find out that proper space
is given to every egress in case of fire, and that the ways are not blocked
or impeded?
A. It doesn't say egress, it says exits. As I understand the meaning
of the word "exit," it is a window or door which leads to the fire-escape.
Q. Then you don't agree with me. Let me understand now, if I am right
-- that it makes not difference, according to your contention, whether
the way to the stairs is blocked or not. You have nothing to do with it?
A. Oh, yes. Now, you are not getting that fairly.
Q. I don't want to be unfair to you.
A. The way to the stairs is not to be blocked, and I wouldn't allow
it to be blocked.
Q. Well, have you any authority there?
A. If I could stop it I would not allow it to be blocked. It is quite
a question in my mind how far my authority goes there.
Q. Have you ever asked for instructions from your Department upon it?
A. Well, the matter has been talked over. It is one of the things where
you are supposed -- it is a case where you are supposed to use your good
judgment.
Q. Now, if the aisles to the stairs were blocked absolutely ---
A. I would order them cleared out.
Q. And if they were blocked partially, so as to make them inadequate
for a number of people in a hurry, wasn't that your duty to report it?
A. I did report it.
Q. Didn't you report that there were only eighteen inches space?
A. I did not.
Q. How many people were employed in the Triangle Waist Factory?
A. About 400 man and women --150 men and 250 women.
Q. Understand, I don't want to be in the least unfair to you. I wouldn't
for anything. Now, what else did you discover? You started to tell me some
violations of the law you discovered there when you examined it. What else
did you discover? Was there any dirt on the floor?
A. No dirt, except the natural refuse from the wok that they were doing.
Q. Was there any more than would be there from one day's work?
A. That is all.
Q. Were the employees smoking?
A. Well, I saw stains on the table where cigarettes had laid.
Q. The marks of the cigarette?
A. In that particular case I saw nobody smoking there. I have reported
that to the employers time and again, of seeing men smoking in shops, because
I know it is a mighty dangerous habit.
Q. Was there anything else that you discovered?
A. Only the things that I told you, the dressing room, the shafting
unguarded under the tables, and the lights in the hall.
Q. When did you make your next inspection?
A. I haven't been there since.
Q. Did you notice whether these doors that opened inward had locks on
them and keys in the locks?
A. The Washington side did. I don't know whether the Greene Street side
did or not. The employees used that side, you know; they used it going
up and downstairs.
Q. It was open all the time?
A. They were going back and forward all the time, going downstairs.
Q. Was the door which led to the elevator also open?
A. Yes, and the elevators were on the Greene Street side, three elevators
on the Greene Street side and two elevators on the Washington Place side.
Q. Now, where the doors were not swinging open -- the door which opened
inward -- did you notice whether or not the man who took you through turned
the key and opened the door that way?
A. They didn't unlock the door at all. A girl took me through, a young
lady out of the office. They were very busy and sent the telephone girl
with me.
Q. Well, didn't you go back in this case to see whether or not the violations
which you found were complied with?
A. I did not. They were turned over to another deputy.
Mr. ELKUS: That is all. Any questions from the Commissioners?
The CHAIRMAN: No.
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