Testimony of Evelyn Nesbit Thaw
 Harry Thaw Trial 1907

Direct examination by Delphin Delmas

Q.—"While you were at the Cafe Martin did you see Stanford 'White?"


Q.—"At what time did you see him?"

A.—“I don't know; it was some time after we arrived.”

Q.—"Where did you first see him?"

A.—"Coming in at the Fifth avenue entrance." 

Q.— “How long did you see him?"

"I don't know. He passed through and went on to the balcony."

Q.—"While he was on the balcony could you see him?"

A.—"No. "

Q.— “Did you see him leave?"

A.— “Yes. I saw him come in from the balcony and go out of the Fifth avenue entrance."

Q.—"While you were in the Cafe Martin, did you call for a pencil?"


Q.—"From whom?"

A.—"I think from Mr. McCaleb. He said he did not have one."

Q.—"Did you ask again for a pencil?"

A.—"Yes, I got one from some one, I don't remember whom."  

Q.— “Did you write a note?"

A.—"I did."

Q.—"On what?"

A.—"A slip of paper. I think Mr. McCaleb gave it to me."

Q.—"What did you do with it? 

A.—"I passed it to Mr. Thaw."

Q.—"What did Mr. Thaw do?"

A.— “He said to me: 'Are you all right?'  I said:  ‘Yes.'"  

Q.—"What was your condition as to being disturbed or affected?"

[Mr. Jerome's objection to the question was sustained.]

Q.—"Was there anything unusual in your manner that was visible to others?"

[Objection was sustained.] 

Q.—"After this how long did you remain?" 

A.— “Only a short time." 

Q.—"Mrs. Thaw, have you that slip of paper now?"

A.—"I have not."

Q.—"Have you seen it since?"


Q.— “After you left the restaurant, you went to Madison Square Roof garden?"


Q.—"About what time was it?"  

A.— “About the middle of the first act."  

Q.—"How long did he remain at your side?"

A.—"About half an hour."  

Q.— “What was his manner then?"

A.—"It seemed to be the same as ever."

Q.—"Did you talk about anything special then?"

A.—"No, just general."

Q.—"Who suggested going away from the garden?"

A.—"I did."

Q.—"The play wasn't interesting to you?"

A.—"Not a bit," said the witness.

Q.— “How did you start when you went out?"

A.—"I think that Mr. McCaleb and I were in the lead and Mr. Thaw and Mr. Beale followed."

Q.—"How far had you gone when something happened ?"

A.—"Almost to the elevator. I had turned around to speak to Mr. Thaw."

Q.—"How far were you from Mr. White then?"  

A.— “About as far as the end of the jury box."

Q.—" You saw Mr. White sitting there?"

A.—"I did."

Q.—"Did you see Mr. Thaw then?"

A.—"Not until a minute or so afterward, He was directly in front of Mr. White, standing with his arm up in the air."

Q.—"Did you hear shots fired?"

A.—"Yes, immediately after I saw Mr. White I heard the shots." .

Q.— “How many shots?" 

A.— “Three shots."

Q.—"What did you say?"

A.—"I said to Mr. McCaleb: 'I think he has shot him.'"

Q.—"Did Mr. Thaw come over to where you were?" 

A.— “Yes, I asked him what he had done. He leaned over and kissed me and said: 'I have probably saved your life.' "

Q.—"What happened then?"

A.—"I left."

Q.— “You were taken from there?"

A.—"Yes, I think with Mr. McCaleb and Mr. Beale."

Q.—"You left and did not return?"

A.— “Yes. "

Q.— “You said that you are the wife of the defendant? "


Q.— “When were you married?"  

A.—"On April 4, 1905."  

Q.—"Where? "  

A.—"In Pittsburg, at the residence of Dr. McEwen, pastor of the Third Presbyterian church."

Q.—"Who were present?"

A.—"I think Josiah Thaw, Mr. Thaw's brother," the witness went on, after a moment.

Q.—"When had Mr. Thaw proposed for the first time?"

A.—"In June, 1903, in Paris."

Q.—"At the time did you refuse him?"

A.—"I did."

Q.—"Did you state in explaining your refusal of his proposal that it had something to do with Stanford White?" 

A.—'"Yes. "

Q.—"State what happened."

A.—"Mr. Thaw told me that he loved me and wanted to marry me. I stared at him for a moment and then he said, 'Don't you care for me?' ' and I said that I did. Then he asked me what was the matter. I said 'nothing. ' 'Why won't you marry me?' he said. He put his hands on my shoulder and asked, "Is it because of Stanford White?' and I said, 'yes.' Then he told me he would never love anyone else or marry anyone else. I started to cry. He said he wanted me to tell him the whole thing. Then I began to tell him how I first met Stanford White."

[Evelyn collapses.  She murmurs:]

"I can't go on! I can't! I can't!"

[The court windows are opened, an alienist applies restoratives, and in a few minutes Evelyn continues with her testimony:]

Q."....Be kind enough to remember you are to omit in relating the narrative of what you told Mr. Thaw, the name of any other person save that of Mr. White. Now continue."

A."A young lady asked my mother several times to let me go out with her to lunch.  She came again and again to me before I sent her to my mother, finally, and she said, 'All right.' My mother finally consented....On the day I was to go my- mother dressed me and I went with Miss --, the other young lady, in a hansom, hoping we would go to the ballroom, because I wanted to see it. But we went straight down to Broadway, through Twenty-fourth street up to a dingy looking door. The young lady jumped out and asked me to follow her."

Q.'"Did you relate all that to Mr. Thaw?"

A."Yes, he told me to tell him everything."

Q."By the way, what was the date of that event?"

A."As nearly as I can remember, it was in August, 1901."

Q."Well, now I want you to tell of your first meeting with Stanford White just as you told it to Mr. Thaw on that day."
A.—[Evelyn testified that a chorus girl, Edna Goodrich, asked her to a luncheon party where she would meet White. She and Edna took a cab and went to the studio on West Twenty-fourth street.] “We went upstairs, and there I met a man who was introduced to me as Stanford White. I thought him an ugly man. There was a table already set for four. Another gentleman came later. I remember Mr. White teased me about my hair, which I wore down my back, and my short skirt, which reached to my shoe tops. After supper we went up two flights of stairs more, and in the room was a large red: velvet swing. Mr. White put me in the swing and swung me very hard. Then he swung very hard one foot crashed through a large Japanese umbrella which hung from the ceiling."

Q.....“Did you see Mr. White again?"

A."Yes, he came to see my mother, told her that I would be all right in New York, and that he would take care of me." [Evelyn testified that she went to a studio in East Twenty-second street. The door 'opened of itself," she said, and the house looked at first "as if no one lived there."  She said that she went upstairs and met Mr. White, a photographer, and another man.

 Q."What did you see there?"

A."There was a lot of expensive gowns there."

Q."What happened?"

A."I went into the dressing-room to put on the dress. Mr. White knocked at the door and asked if I needed any help. I said, 'No.' [Evelyn testified in detail about her experience in the photographic studio and said she posed until she was very tired and that White, who had come in, ordered food and they had something to eat. The photographer left, she said, and after they had lunched she went into a dressing room to remove her kimona and put on her dress.]  "I shut the door while I was inside. Mr. White came to the door, knocked and asked me if I wanted any help. I said: 'No.' [Evelyn testified that she drank but one glass of champagne and when she was dressed she got into a carriage and was taken back to the hotel.] 
"The next night, I got a note from Mr. White asking me to come down to the studio for luncheon after the theater with some his friends. A carriage would call for me, and would take me home after the party, he wrote. I went down to the Twenty-fourth street studio again and found Mr. 'White and no one else there. 'What do you think,' he said to me, 'the others have turned us down.' Then I told him I had better go home, and he told me that I had better sit down and have some fruit. So I took off my hat and coat. Mr. White told me he had other floors in the garden, and that I had not seen all of his place. He would take me around and show me, he said."
"So he took me up some stairs to the floor above, where there were very beautiful decorations. I played for him, and he took me into another room. That room was a bedroom. On a small table stood a bottle of champagne and one glass. Mr. White poured out just one glass for me, and I paid no attention to it. Mr. White went away, came back and said: 'I decorated this room, myself.' Then he asked me why I was not drinking my champagne and I said I did not like it; it tasted bitter. But he persuaded me to drink it and I did. A few moments after I had drank it there began a pounding and thumping in my ears and the room got all black.
When I came to myself I was greatly frightened and I started to scream. [Evelyn described seeing blood on her thigh and realizing that she had had sex.] Mr. White came and tried to quiet me. As I sat up I saw mirrors all over. I began to scream again, and Mr. White asked me to keep quiet, saying that it was all over. Then he threw the kimono over me he left the room. I screamed harder than ever. I don't remember much of anything after that. He took me home and I sat up all night crying."

Q."'What did he say afterward?"

A."He made me swear that I would never tell my mother about it. He said there was no use in talking and the greatest thing in this world was not to get found out. He said the girls in the theaters were foolish to talk. He laughed afterward. He said it was all right-that there was 'nothing so nice as young girls and nothing so loathsome as fat ones. You must never get fat.'"

Recalled: Direct Examination

Q."Call Mrs. Evelyn Nesbit Thaw to the stand....Please relate what you told Mr. Thaw besides what you stated before."

A.—"He asked me how I came to speak to Stanford White after my return from Europe. I told him I was driving down Fifth avenue one day in a hansom cab with my maid and we passed Stanford White.  I heard him exclaim: ‘Oh look at Evelyn.’ A few days later I was called to the telephone and it was Mr. White. He said: ‘My but it is good to hear your voice again,’ and said he wanted to come and see me. I told him I could not see him.  He said it was very important that I should see him asked if my mother was ill. He said it was a matter of life and death—he could not tell me over the telephone.  So he came to see me at the Hotel Savoy.  When he came in he tried to kiss me, but I did not let him.  He asked me what was the matter.  I told him to sit down and asked him again if my mother was ill.  He said, ‘No,’ and at once began to talk about Harry Thaw.  He told me that different actresses had told him that I was in Europe with Harry Thaw. He said presently that Harry Thaw took me to Europe, and asked me why I went around with a man who took morphine.  He said positively that Harry Thaw took morphine, that he was not even a gentleman, and I must have nothing to do with him.

"After that he came constantly to see me.  He also sent people to me who told me stories about Mr. Thaw, the stories I told yesterday.  I told Mr. Thaw afterward that the stories worried me so much I could not sleep nights.  I got very nervous, for I knew Mr. Thaw was coming over and I did not want to see him.  I told Mr. White I did not want to see Mr. Thaw.

"One day Mr. White telephoned me that he was going to send a carriage for me and I was to come to Broadway and Nineteenth street. I did so, and White met me and got into the carriage. He said he was taking me to see Abe Hummel, the greatest lawyer in New York, who would protect me from Harry Thaw. He said I was not to be afraid of Mr. Hummel; he was a little man with a big, bald head, warts on his face and was very ugly.

"When I got to Mr. Hummel's office Mr. White went away. Mr. Hummel's office walls were covered with photographs of actresses, with writing on them. He asked me how I came to go to Europe with Harry Thaw, and I told him that I didn’t, I went with my mother and Thaw followed us. He asked me about my quarrel with my mother in London. I said it was a continuous quarrel between us; we simply couldn’t get along. She wanted to come home to America and I said she could come, but I was going to stay there and return to the stage; but the doctor told me I couldn't dance for a year. Hummel asked me all places where I went with Thaw.

"I told him all I could remember. He said I was a minor and that Thaw should have been more careful. He said he had a case in his office against Thaw, but the woman in the case was a very bad one and he did not think the case was much good.

“Then he said Thaw was a very bad man, and, above all things, I must be protected from him.  Mr. White then said that the other man was to get Harry Thaw out of New York and keep him out.

“They asked me if I went to Europe of my own accord, and I said I certainly had.  I said I remained in Europe after my mother left because I had quarreled with her and could not dance for a year, and I liked Mr. Thaw very much and could not do anything else.

“'Nevertheless,’ Hummel said, ‘you are a minor and he should not have taken you away from your mother.’ I said he did not take me away.

“Mr. White said that strong methods must be resorted to to keep Thaw out of New York, and to protect myself I must help in every way I could.

“Mr. White said I must leave everything in Mr. Hummel’s hands.  Then they sent for a stenographer, and the lawyer said I must not interrupt him in what he was about to say.  I was very nervous and excited, and I think I began to cry.  Then they began to dictate and put in a lot of stuff that I had been carried away by Harry Thaw against my will.  I started to interrupt, but the lawyer put up his hands and stopped me.

“They put in that I had been taken away from my mother and a lot of stuff that was not true—that I had been treated badly by Mr. Thaw.  Then they sent the man out of the room.

“Several days later Mr. Hummel called me up and asked if I had any letters from Mr. Thaw.

“I said I did, but I could not see what that had to do with it.  Mr. White also called up and said if I was not willing to help in every way they could not protect me from Mr. Thaw.  He said I must do just what Mr. Hummel said.  So I made up the letters up in a bundle and took them down to Mr. Hummel’s office. He said he did not want to read them, and did not care what they contained.  He asked, however, if they were love letters, and I said ‘yes.’

“He said he just wanted to hold them over Harry K. Thaw’s head.  He sealed them up in a big envelope so I could see, he said, that he did not care anything about them.

“Then he asked me why I did not sue Harry Thaw for breach of promise.  I said that was absurd, for if there had been any breach of promise it was on my part.  He said that did not matter.

“Mr. Hummel said a breach of promise suit would be a fine advertisement for me.  I told him I did not care for that kind of advertising.  He said lots of actresses had done the same thing and he had won lots of cases for them.  He told me an English duke had once been sued by an actress for breach or promise.  He declared he could easily win a suit for me.  I said I did not want to sue anybody.

“This made Mr. Hummel very mad and angry and he told me I was foolish."

Q."What more did you tell Mr. Thaw?"

A.—"Mr. Thaw asked me if I had signed anything in Mr. Hummel's office and I said I had not. He said that was funny, for if they wanted to cause trouble I must have signed something. I said I had signed absolutely nothing in Mr. Hummel's office.

"Mr. Thaw was very much agitated. He said Hummel was a blackmailer and he said, I think, that there was something bad in the air and he impressed me that he was going to see Mr. Longfellow, his lawyer."

[Evelyn testified that  she visited  her own lawyer and relatedg her experiences with Hummel. Her lawyer, she said, was greatly incensed at what she told him of her experiences in Hummel's office.]

"My lawyer, too, told me that Hummel was a shyster. Mr. Thaw told me that I had no business to speak again with Stanford White. He accused me of having been imprudent with Mr. White since I came back from Europe, and I said that it was a lie. He said it would look to people as if I was a blackmailer by going to Hummel's office."

Q."Did you tell of another incident?"

A.—"Yes, I told him of one day when White came to the hotel Navarre and he was terribly mad, and walked up and down the room with a. camp chair in his hand. 'My child,' he said, 'what did you tell Mr. Hummel about me? I said I had not said anything, and then Mr. White said I must have told Hummel, because Hummel had just squeezed $1,000 out of him and he was not going to send another $1,000....

"I called Mr. White up on the telephone after I had talked to Mr. Thaw, and I demanded of Mr. White that he put the paper in the fire. He said he did not have it—but that it was in Mr. Hummel's office. I said: ' Very well,' and told him I was going down to Mr. Hummel's office immediately. He told me to not talk about the matter over the telephone, and I said I did not care who heard me. Then White said he would meet me on the corner and I met him.

"When I met him we went down to Mr. Hummel's office. He showed me the paper and showed me my signature and asked if it was mine, and I said it was.  Then they put the paper in a big jardinière and burned it. Afterward I told Mr. Thaw all about it and also saw Mr. Longfellow and told him."

Q."How did Mr. Thaw, treat you from that time until he proposed marriage?"

A."He treated me very nicely; carried me up and down stairs when I was sick and brought me flowers and took me carriage riding."

Q."What reason did you give him for not marrying him?"

A."It was because of my reputation. I did not want to separate him from his family. I knew it would be a good thing for me to marry him, but it would not be for him. It was because I loved him that I would not marry. If I did not love him so much I might have been anxious to marry him."

Q."There was something happened which led you to change your mind in regard to marrying Thaw?"


Q."You were given to believe that his family would receive you as his wife?"


Q."Did you meet Mrs. Thaw, his mother, in New York?

A.“I did.”

Q."After your marriage did you visit New York from Pittsburg?"

A."We did."

Q."Did you tell your husband of the efforts of Stanford White to renew your friendship?"

A.“I did."

Q."What was the first occurrence you told your husband about?"

A."Once when I was driving on. Fifth avenue, when I passed Mr. White and he called out to me, 'Evelyn.' "

Q."Did you tell your husband?"

A."I did, and he said it was not right for me to see him and made me promise that if I ever met White again I would tell him about it."

Q."Did you tell him?”

A."I did."

Q."When did you see Mr. White again?"

A."It was on Fifth avenue one day when I was riding to Dr. Delavan to have my throat treated. I was in a hansom and Mr. White was also riding in a hansom, too. When I got home I told Mr. Thaw that at about Thirty-fourth street I had passed Mr. White, both of us in hansoms. He did not attempt to speak to me, but stared hard at me. I looked away. 'When I got down to the doctor's office I found Stanford White in his hansom coming there. I ran up the steps, but I was excited and nervous and I told the door porter that I would come some other time, so I ran back down the stairs, jumped into my hansom, looked neither to the right nor to the left, and told the driver to go back to the Lorraine as quickly as ever he could."

Q.—"How did Mr. Thaw act when you told him of this?"

A.Oh, he was always very excited whenever I told him of my meetings with White. He bit his nails and looked excited."

Q."Did you ever tell Mr. Thaw how yon came to be sent to school at Pompton, N. J., and if so, relate it to the jury, and also wherein the name of Jack Barrymore entered into the discussion, and tell what your relations to Barrymore were."

A."I met Mr. Barrymore when I was with the Wild Rose' company at the Knickerbocker theater. Mr. White gave a dinner to a whole lot of friends. I was asked to attend and I went there and met his friends at the party. Mr. Barrymore was there...."

"It all came about through a quarrel between Mr. White, my mother and myself over Mr. Barrymore. One afternoon in Square garden Mr. Barrymore said to me, 'Will you marry me?' 

"I answered him, and said, 'I don't know.'

"White asked me if I would marry Barrymore and said, 'If kids like you get married, what would you have to live on?"

"Every day after that when I would meet my mother she would ask me if I intended 'to marry that little pup Barrymore,' saying Mr. White was afraid I would.

"Mr. White then came to see me and said I would be very foolish to marry Mr. Barrymore; we would have nothing to live on, would probably quarrel and get a divorce. He also said Mr. Barrymore was a little bit crazy, that his father was in an asylum, and he thought the whole family was touched. He was certain Mr. Barrymore would be crazy in a few years, and for that reason said I ought not to marry him.

"Mr. Barrymore asked me a second time if I would marry him, and again I said, 'I don't know,' and laughed. The upshot of the whole matter was that Mr. White came and said I ought to be sent to school, and I was."

Q....."You have already testified, Mrs. Thaw, that you are familiar with the handwriting of Stanford White," said the attorney. "I now hand you a paper and ask if from beginning to end it is in the handwriting of Mr. White?"

A."It is his handwriting."

Q."How long have you known May McKenzie?"

A."Since 1901."

Q."How long has Mr. Thaw known her?"

A.“Since 1904."

Q."Did you in May, 1906, relate to Mr. Thaw a conversation you had with May McKenzie especially with reference to what she said to you regarding Stanford White?”

A."May McKenzie told me Stanford White had been to see her and that she had told him that Harry and I were getting along finely together. She said she thought it was so nice the way we loved each other. She said Stanford White had remarked: ‘Pooh, it won't last. I will get her back.'"

Q."Did Mr. Thaw say anything when you told him this?"

A."He said he had already heard it from Miss McKenzie."

Q."What was his condition when you told him?"

A."The way he always was when on the subject of Stanford White."

Q."How was that?"

A." Very excited and nervous."

Q." You had a second operation in 1905, did you not?”


Q."Who made the arrangements for it and paid the cost?"

A."Harry K. Thaw."

Q."How much was the bill?"

A."In all about $3,000. The operation itself was $1,000."

Q."Did Mr. Thaw have any conversation with the attending physician at that time regarding your previous relations with White?" 

A."No, sir; not in my presence."

Q."Did Mr. Thaw at the time of your marriage and subsequent thereto talk very much about the incident in your life connected with White?”

A.“Yes. He always talked about it.  He would waken me often at night, sobbing.  And then he would constantly ask me questions about the details of this terrible thing.”

Q.“Did you visit May McKenzie at her apartments in 1904?”

A.“Yes; she was ill and sent me a letter to come to see her.”

Q.While you were there did Stanford White come in?”


Q.“Did you tell Mr. Thaw of anything that then occurred?”

A.“Yes. Stanford White spoke to me several times and I always answered ‘yes’ or ‘no.’  He then came over and started to straighten a bow on my hair.  My hair was short, having been cut off at the time of first operation.  The Stanford White tried to put his arms around me, and wanted me to sit beside him on the bed.  I told him to let me alone....I told him it would do no good,that White had many influential friends and that he could stop it. I told him that lots of people would not believe the things about White on account of his personality."

Q."Did you and Mr. Thaw discuss the fate of the 'pie girl?"

A."Yes, sir. It was in Paris in 1903. He asked me what other girls I knew of who had suffered at the hands of White. I told him I had heard of the 'pie girl,' whose name was known to both of us. A girl at the theater had told me about it and that night when White came to my dressing-room I asked him about it. He asked me where I had heard the story. I told him a girl had told me. Then he told me all about it. 'There was a stag dinner, he said, and the girl was put in a big pie with a lot of birds. She was very young—about 15 years, I think he said. He also told me that the girl had a beautiful figure and wore only a gauze dress. He helped put her in the pie and fix it, and said it was the best stunt he ever saw at a dinner. When the girl jumped out of the pie the birds flew all about the room.' 'But I came near getting into trouble about it,' he said. 'We put gold pieces in the girl's shoes and in her dress and a lot of people heard of it. All the newspapers got hold of it. I stopped it at all the newspapers but one, but I could not stop it there. I got a friend to go see them, though, and we finally got them to stop it, too. We kept it out of the paper, but it was close.'  I told Mr. White I had heard he ruined the girl that night, but he only laughed."

Q.—...."When did Mr. Thaw next talk to you about such cases?"

A."The next time was in Pittsburg, when We were married. He told me that the girl was dead. He said he had investigated the story and that it was true; that afterward the girl married, but her husband heard the story of her connection with Mr. White and that he cast her off' and she died in great poverty and disgrace."

Q."Did you and Mr. Thaw often speak of these girls?"

A."Yes, there was a constant conversation. I could not possibly tell you every place and every time we discussed it. He told me something ought to be done about the girls. I told him I could not do anything. He then said I could help him. I tried to get his mind on other things and then he would say I was trying to get out of it. He said White ought to be in the penitentiary; that he got worse and worse all the time and something had to be done."

Cross-examination by  William T. Jerome:

Q.—....“Was there any exposure of the person or did you wear the so-called artistie draperies?”

A.“I would not say that,” replied the witness.  “I posed in a Greek dress and a Turkish costume.”

Q.“You are certain you never posed for a painting or photograph in such a manner?” 

A.“I never did—I always posed with clothes on.  Do you mean without anything on her? I have posed in low-neck, but never, never like that.”

Q.“Is it not true, that in the spring of 1901, so far as your relations with your mother were concerned, that you were getting unruly, that your mother still stuck by you, that a married man –"

“If the district attorney wants to the mother’s testimony in he should produce her on the stand.”

“I’d like to, but you know that it is impossible.  You know where she is.”

[The question regarding Evelyn becoming unruly was allowed to stand.]


Q.“Is it not true that that married man was James A. Garland, and that he was getting a divorce, and that you and your mother frequently quarreled about him”

A.“No, indeed.”  

Q.“Is it not true that you went alone with him on the yacht?”

A.“Mamma and I, yes.”

Q.“During this time did you ever pose for an artist in the nude?” 


Q.“Ever had any casts made in the nude?”


Q.“Did you not in the spring of 1901 have such a cast made?”


Q.“Do you know Mr. Wells, sculptor?”


Q.“Ever heard of him?”


Q.“How long did you know Mr. Garland?”

A.“Not long.”

Q.“When did you acquaintance with him cease?”

A.“When I met Stanford White.”

Q.“Isn’t it true that Mr. Garland became very annoying when you lived at a certain apartment house?”


Q.“Your recollection is clear that you posed in draperies the day before the mirrored-room incident?”


Q.“Was there any exposure of the person?”


Q.“Was there any exposure of the person”

A.“The photographs were low-necked.”

Q.“Did you continue to believe all women were what Stanford White told you until you talked to Thaw in Paris in 1903?” 

A.“Yes, sir.”

Q.“Before the time you left Paris, had you any appreciation that such things as you have described were considered as improper and positively wrong?”

A.“Not until my talk with Mr. Thaw.”

Q.“Before that you didn’t believe it wrong; you did not think it improper?”

A.“Oh, yes.”

Q.“Very wrong?”

A.“Not particulary.  I knew people said it was wrong.”

Q.“Did you think it very indelicate and vulgar?”

A.“That is all.”

Q.“That it was only bad taste?”


Q.“But you didn’t think it was wrong?”

A.“I didn’t fully realize it until I went to Paris.”

Q.“But you thought it was wrong?”


Q.“Did you belong to any religious organization?”


Q.“You went to church and Sunday school in Pittsburg?”

A.“Not in Pittsburg.”

Q.“In Paris it was impressed on you that White had done you a terrible wrong?”

A.“In a way."

Q.“Before you left Paris you had begun to look on such relations as very wrong?”


Q.“Had you come to full understanding of the infamous character of White’s act?”

A.“Yes—but not so much as I have now.”

Q.“Yet it was this that induced your renunciation of Thaw’s great love?”


Q.“Did you refuse Thaw solely because of the occurrence with White?”

A.“Because I have been found out.”

Q.“Who told you you had been caught?”

A.“Friends of Stanford White.”

Q.“So it was not because of the occurrence, but because you had been found out?”

A.“It was both together.  I had an instinct about it.  When Mr. Thaw proposed it was the first proposal I ever had and it all struck me very seriously.  It all came together.”

Q.“You felt the most heinous wrong had been done?”

A.“I didn’t know anything about it at the time.  All I remember is what I felt like when I woke up.  I remember that distinctly.  I didn’t understand what had taken place.”

Q.“It outraged every maidenly instinct in you, didn’t it?”

A.“It did, and that is why I quarreled with Stanford White.”

Q.“You were very bitter against White when you told Thaw weren’t you?”

A.“Not then.”

Q.“When you felt you were giving up Thaw’s love you didn’t fell bitter against White?”

A.“Not intensely.  Not until Mr. Thaw made me realize it.”

Q.“Did you continue to have a feeling of enmity against White?”

A.“I wouldn’t say enmity—it was hostility against him for this one thing and subsequent things.”

Q.“What subsequent things?”

A.“Things with Stanford White.”

Q.“Were they improper and indecent?”

A.“I don’t know what you would call them.”

Q.—...“While abroad did you tell your mother of you experience with White?”


Q.“How did you know Stanford White’s friends knew of your relations with Stanford White?”

A.“One of them saw me with him at the East Twenty-second studio.”

Q.“Was there any impropriety there?”


Q.“So you continued to maintain relations with Stanford White?”

A.“Yes, for a time.”

Q.“Did you tell Harry Thaw about these subsequent relations with Stanford White?”


Q.“And you didn’t think to tell us on your direct examination?”


Q.“Can you fix dates as to these subsequent events?”


Q.“How did you know this man knew of your relations with White?”

A.“He saw me one day with Mr. White in one of his studios.”

Q.“Were you and Mr. White alone?”


Q.“How long did you continue to visit Mr. White?"

A.“Not after January, 1902.”

Q.“How many visits did you make?”

A.“I do not remember.”

Q.“Were they frequent?”


Q.“Where did these visits take place?”

A.“At the Twenty-second and Twenty-fourth street studios and in the Tower.”

Q.“And on these occasions were you two alone?”


Q.“Did you partake of refreshments there?”


Q.“Were you drugged again?”


Q.“Did you have too much wine?”


Q.“What time of the day did these incidents occur?”

A.“Usually after the theater.”

Q.“Why did you not tell your mother all about your visits?”

A.“I would rather have died than to tell her.”

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