EXCERPTS FROM THE TESTIMONY OF VICTORIA PRICE

Direct examination by Hon. H. G. Bailey
 

Q    Your name is Victoria Price?

A    Yes sir

COURT:    Let the indictment be read.

(The indictment was thereupon read by Mr. Bailey and the defendant plead not guilty.)

Q    Where do you live Miss Price?

A    Huntsville, Alabama.

Q    On March 25th, 1931, Miss Price where were you living?

A    Huntsville, Alabama.

Q    On that date were you on a freight train traveling through Jackson County, Alabama,  from Stevenson to Paint Rock?

A    Yes sir.

Q    Who if any one was with you on that train?

A    Ruby Bates.

Q    Where did you board that train?

A    Chattanooga.

Q    Chattanooga, Tennessee?

A    Yes sir.

Q    In what direction was that train traveling, toward Huntsville, or away from Huntsville    toward Chattanooga?

A    Toward Huntsville.

Q    You say you boarded the train at Chattanooga?

A    Yes sir.

Q    Who was with you when you boarded the train?

A    Ruby Bates.

Q    Another woman?

A    Yes sir.

Q    Was anyone else with you?

A    No sir.

Q    What part of that train did you board at Chattanooga?

A    Oil tank.

Q    You mean an oil tank car attached to that train?

A    Yes sir.

Q    Were you on the train when it reached Stevenson, Alabama in Jackson County?

A    Still on the oil tank.

Q    Did the train stop at Stevenson, Alabama?

A    Yes sir.

Q    Did you change from the car you were riding on or not at Stevenson?

A    Yes sir, I got off the oil tank and walked down the train toward the engine and walked    down the train toward the engine and got on a gondola.

Q    Is that a gondola car?

A    Yes sir.

Q    Has it a top on it?

A    No sir.

Q    You say you got in that car at Stevenson?

A    Yes sir.

Q    Did anybody else get in there with you or not?

A    Yes sir.

Q    What was in that car you got into?

A    Chert.

Q    About how much chert was in it, how much did the car like being full of chert?

A    About a foot and a half or two feet of being full.

Q    Was there any one else in that gondola car when you got in it?

A    No sir.

Q    As the train was proceeding west from Stevenson Alabama, did anyone else come in that     car while you were there?

A    There was seven white boys got in it.

Q    In the same car you and Ruby Bates were in?

A    Yes sir.

Q    In what part of the car were you and Ruby Bates seated when the seven white boys got
in?

A    We were setting in the back and next to the box cars toward the caboose.

Q    Toward the rear of the train?

A    Yes sir, and those white boys got in next to the engine in the lower end of it.

Q    At the end of the gondola next to the engine?

A    Yes sir up toward the engine.

Q    As the train proceeded on its way did anybody else come into that gondola car?

A    Yes sir in about five or ten minutes these colored boys come over.

Q    To the best of your recollection about how many were there?

A    Twelve.

Q    From where did they come, what part of the train?

A    From toward the caboose over the box car.

Q    Was there a box car next to the gondola in the direction of the caboose?

A    Yes sir.

Q    Did they come from the top of the box car or from where?

A    Yes sir they jumped from the top of it over our heads.

Q    Was this defendant seated over there, Haywood Patterson, was he in that number you say    came from the top of the box car into the gravel car?

A    Yes sir.

Q    How did they get over there, in what way did they come in the gravel car?

A    Come running across the top back toward the engine and jumped over our heads.

Q    You say they came from what end of the train?

A    Toward the caboose.

Q    From toward the caboose?

A    Yes sir.

COURT:    You said toward the engine a minute ago, came from the caboose?

A    Yes sir.

Q    Did they climb over the side of the gravel car or did they jump?

A    They jumped over.

Q    Each one of them?

A    Yes sir.

Q    What happened immediately after these colored men jumped in that car?

A    They commenced fighting and knocking off the white boys.

Q    Was this defendant among them?

A    Yes sir.

Q    Was he fighting too?

A    Yes sir.

Q    What, if anything, did this defendant, Haywood Patterson have in his hand as he got in the car?

A    He had a gun.

Q    You mean a pistol?

A    Yes sir.

Q    Just what did you see him do in that fight with the white boys?

A    Well he helped knock them off and throwed his gun up and him and the other one shot a     time or two over the gondola.

Q    Over the side of the gondola, shot over the side of the gondola?

A    Over the top of the gondola.

Q    How many, do you know how many of those white boys got off that train, or were put off
       that train?

A    All seven of them was put off except Orville Gilley.

Q    What became of him?

A    He crawled back in the gondola.

Q    What was his condition after he crawled back in the gondola, his appearance?

A    He said he was scared he would get killed if he jumped off, and said he was gong to stay  in there, and if us girls died he would die too.

Q    After the boys were put off the train, the white boys all except Gilley, then what if anything did this defendant do?

A    He helped take my clothes off.

Q    Helped take your clothes off?

A    Yes sir.

Q    What clothes did you have on.

A    Overalls, shirt, three dresses, pair of step-ins, girls coat and girls hat.

Q    What clothes did they remove from your body, this defendant you say helped?

A    Pulled off my overalls and tore my step-ins undone-tore my step-ins apart.

Q    What happened then Miss Price?

A    Well one of them held my legs and one held a knife on my throat while one of them raped
me.

Q    Did Haywood Patterson on that occasion while one of those boys had a knife at your   throat, and the other one holding you by the legs, did he have sexual intercourse with
you?
A    Yes sir, he was the third one, or the fourth one, I won't be positive.

Q    This defendant had intercourse with you?

A    Yes sir.

Q    I will ask you Miss Price to examine this garment please, are those the step-ins you had on on that occasion (indicating)?

A    Yes sir.

Q    Have you had them in your possession since then?

A    Just long enough to wash them?

Q    Have they been in your care since this happened?

A    Yes sir

Q    Are they now in the same condition as they were, just as they were pulled off of you?

A    Yes sir.

Q    Those are the step-ins?

MR.BAILEY:       We offer them in evidence.

MR. LEIBOWITZ:    We object to them, this is the first time in two years any such step-ins have
ever been shown in any court of justice.  They were not produced at the first trial or second trial
or any of the four trials at Scottsboro.  This is the first time in two years any step-ins have been
produced in any court.

GENERAL KNIGHT:   They are here now.

MR. LEIBOWITZ:    I am serious about that objection.

COURT:    So far there has not been any disorder, and the Court will not permit any disorder.  I
will say this much now the Court has the right to clear the Court room, and if it is necessary to
keep order the Court will not hesitate to do it.  If you cannot restrain your feelings in this court
room the proper place for you is on the outside.

MR. LEIBOWITZ:    I have thought about this matter, and on second thought I am going to
withdraw that objection.

COURT:    Very well.

MR. LEIBOWITZ:    Let the exhibit go in evidence.

COURT:    Very well

Q    Miss Price did you resist this defendant when he attempted to have intercourse with you?

A    Yes sir, I resisted him, I fought them as long as I could.

Q    After he had sexual intercourse with you what did he do then immediately thereafter?

A    He took my overalls and set down on them.

Q    How was that?

A    Took my overalls and set down on them.

Q    What was happening to you then while he was sitting on your overalls?

A    There was another one raping me.

Q    Did they have hold of you then?

A    Yes sir, one of them was hold of my legs and one had a knife on my throat.

     Where did you get off of that train?

A    Paint Rock, Alabama.

Q    Paint Rock, Alabama?

A    Yes sir.
 
Q    Were these colored boys, including this defendant Haywood Patterson in that gondola  car when that train reached Paint Rock, Alabama?

A    Yes sir.

Q    Did you see them after they got out of it, or did they attempt to get out at Paint Rock?

A    When the train stopped they started running toward the engine like they were going to jump in another gondola, but when they started to get off they caught them.

Q    Some people at Paint Rock.

A    Yes sir, there was a large crowd there.

Q    Where did you go on that occasion, what became of you?

A    After they quit raping me I got up and stood up by the side of the gondola to see what was going on.  I got up and climbed over the side of the gondola down to the last step then I fell and I don't remember anything else until I cam e to myself in a grocery store in Paint Rock.

Q    You were unconscious there for a while?

A    Yes sir.

Q    When you came to yourself where did you go, where were you taken.

A    Back to Scottsboro.

Q    That is the County Seat of Jackson County?

A    Yes sir, that is what they said.

Q    While you were at Scottsboro or after you arrived there did some doctors make an  examination of your person?

A    Yes sir, Dr. Bridges and Dr. Lynch.

Q    About how long was it after you reached Scottsboro before the doctors made this examination?

A    About an hour or an hour and a half, I won't be positive.

Q    After you reached Scottsboro?

A    Yes sir, it has been so long, but my best judgment about an hour or hour and a half.

Q    All this happened as I understand it Miss Price while the train was running between  Stevenson, Alabama, and Paint Rock, Alabama.

A    Yes sir.

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CROSS EXAMINATION BY HON. SAMUEL S. LEIBOWITZ
 

Q    Miss Price, shall I call you Miss Price or Mrs. Price?

A    Mrs. Price.

Q    This is a pretty fair idea of a gondola isn't it (indicating)?

A    No sir.

Q    That doesn't look like a gondola?

A    No sir.

Q    Is this what you mean by a gondola (indicating)?

A    No sir.

Q    How different was the gondola you were in from this (indicating) what difference is  there?

A    Lots of slope at the top.

Q    I don't understand you?

A    They are kind of slanting at the top (indicating).

Q    Inside?

A    On the end.

Q    The car slants out a little.

A    Yes sir.

Q    What other difference?

A    It is almost as tall as a box car.

Q    The height of it you say is as tall as a box car?

A    Almost, likes about a foot and a half or two feet being as tall as a box car.

Q    This has the general shape of it (indicating)?

A     No sir.

Q    The top of the gondola is like a box isn't it?

A    It is kinda similar to a box, but not made up like that.

Q    Well you have seen gondolas like this?

A    No sir.

Q    Never saw one like that (indicating)?

A    No sir

Q    Not in all your life?

A    No sir, I never seen a gondola like that.

Q    You never saw one, you say you have never seen a railroad car, a freight car like that in your life (indicating) that looks like this?

A    Not a gondola.

Q    I asked you about any kind of railroad car,  have you ever seen one that looked like that (indicating)?

A    I won't say.

Q   Don't you remember?

A    I don't remember, I won't say.

Q    You have been on railroads a lot?

A    No sir, that was my first trip.

Q    You have been on a number of trips?

A     No sir.

Q    You have been to Chattanooga before on a freight?

A    No sir.

*    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *

Q    Just look at this little replica and tell me if this little miniature fairly represents the general appearance of the box car you spoke of?

A     It kinda represents one, but it isn't like the one I was on.

Q    In what way is it different, can you say?

A    I won't say.
 
Q    If you can't say why do you say it was different?

A    Because that is not the train I was on.

Q    Of course you were not on this miniature train, I asked you if this is a fair representation?

A    Just a little bit.

Q    Only just a little bit?

A    Yes sir.

Q    How does it differ?

A    I didn't examine it.

Q    You don't know whether it is different or not?

A    I won't say.

Q    You don't know do you?

A    It is kind a little bit.

Q    Little bigger.

A    Sure it was bigger, lots bigger, that is a toy?

Q    I understand, I asked you if this was a good sample of this big box car--this is a miniature train you understand that, examine it closely if you want to and tell me if this isn't a fair representation of the box car on the train you were on.

A    Well it is kinda a little bit, built up like one, I won't swear to that box car, but I will swear the one the negroes come over was a box car and then into the         gondola.

Q    I am speaking of the construction of it, the general appearance of it?

A    I won't go by that box car.

Q    Well does this one show the character of that box than this one (indicating), a little more clearly than this one?

A     I won't go by either one, I am going by the box car the negroes came over the top.

Q    I am not asking you that, I asked you if you will be good enough, if there is any difference in this particular miniature car from the one you say these negroes came over the top.

A    It was a way yonder larger than that car.

Q    Of course it was, this is only a toy, what I am trying to get at is if this represents the general appearance of that box car?

A    A little bit.

Q    Wouldn't you say it was a fair representation?

A    No sir.

Q    It isn't a fair representation?

A    No sir.

Q    In what way is it different?

A    I can't explain - I won't explain.

AQ    You don't want to explain?

A    I won't explain.

Q    You don't want to explain?

A     Not by that.

  *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *
 
 
Q    How old were you at that time?

A    Twenty one

Q    Where were you born

A    Lincoln County, Tennessee

Q    What day and what year?

A    20th of January.

Q    What year - do you have to think about that, figure it out?

A    I won't be positive.

Q    I asked you if you had to think about it to figure it out?

A    I am telling the truth.

Q    I didn't ask you that, I asked you if you were having to think to figure it out?

A    I can't remember the date I was born.

  *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *
 
Q    As a matter of fact you are twenty seven at the present time are you not?

A    Which?

Q    Are you not twenty seven at the present time?

A    No sir.

Q    Were you twenty five when this happened?

A    No sir, twenty one.

Q    Have you ever written on any papers the date of your birth?

A    No sir I haven't.

Q    Have you ever written on any paper when you got married the date of your birth?

A    No sir.

Q    You were married?

A    Yes sir, I have been married.

Q    Several times?

A    Twice.

  *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *

Q    They didn't spare you in any way, didn't try to make it comfortable for you in any way?

A    No sir.

Q    Just like brutes?

A    Yes sir.

Q    You lay on your back there for close to an hour on that jagged rock screaming?

A    Yes sir.

Q    Was your back bleeding when you got to the doctor?

A    I couldn't say.

Q    When you got to the jail did you find any blood on your back?

A    A little bit.

Q    Are you sure about that?

A    I ain't sure, that has been two years ago.

  *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *

Q    When you got to the doctor's office you were not crying in any way?

A    To the best of my judgment I was crying.

  *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *
Q    Was Ruby Bates crying?

A    I don't know anything about that, I wasn't paying any attention to her I was hurt too bad.

Q    You were torn inside, pardon if I refer to it, your private parts, you were torn?

A    I don't know whether I was, I felt like I was.

Q    Do you know whether you were.

A    No, I went to the doctor for that.

Q    Were you bleeding from your private parts?

A    A little bit.

Q    Are you sure about that?

A    (No answer)

MR. LEIBOWITZ:    I won't press it.

Q    Did that blood come out on your clothes?

A    Yes sir.

Q    Did the doctor see that, did you show it to the doctor?

A    I reckon he did.

  *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *

Q    Mrs. Price I am going to put a question to you, so please listen to it; I put it in all fairness and courtesy, I don't mean to be rude in any way; I want to ask you that question against and give you an opportunity to change your answer if you want to.  Did you know Lester Carter before this day, yes or no?

A    Before in Scottsboro-- he was on the train.

Q    I didn't ask you that, before this day on the train did you know Lester Carter?

A    I never did know him.

Q    You will stick to that?

A    I never did know him.

GENERAL KNIGHT:    She has already said it.

COURT:    Do you know him when you see him?

A    No sir, not before I didn't.

COURT:    When was the first time you knew that man was Lester Carter?

A    It was in the Scottsboro jail.

COURT:    Was that the first time you know that man was Lester Carter?

A   Yes sir

COURT:    Did you ever see that man before whom afterwards you found out to be Lester Carter.

A    No sir

*    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *

Q    Didn't you leave with Lester Carter?

A    No sir, I didn't.

Q    Wasn't Lester Carter there with you on the train at Huntsville?

A    No sit, in going to Chattanooga he wasn't.

Q    You don't claim your memory is bad on that point?

A    Lester Carter wasn't with us on the train.

*    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *

Q    Jack Tiller was your boy friend?

A    Before I left Huntsville, Alabama, he was.

Q    You and her were convicted together?

A    No sir.

Q    Convicted of lewdness?

A    No sir, not Jack Tiller, look and see if it is not L.J. Tiller

*    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *

MR. LEIBOWITZ:    I offer in evidence certificate of conviction case #5437, City of Huntsville.

GENERAL KNIGHT:    We object because it is immaterial and irrelevant.

MR. LEIBOWITZ:    On the credibility. Here is a certified copy Judge.  Your honor may I say generally speaking that any witness may be examined as to convictions as bearing on the credibility.

COURT:    No it is only general character, a conviction though of a crime involving moral turpitude goes to credibility.

MR. LEIBOWITZ:    Adultery is that charge.

*    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *

MR. LEIBOWITZ:   May I ask this witness the specific question whether she has been convicted of adultery.

GENERAL KNIGHT:    I want to know that this witness understands what the work adultery means.

MR. LEIBOWITZ:    I will explain it to her.

COURT:    I will explain it to her.  Adultery means you have been living with a man without marriage, that is having sexual relations with him without marriage.

MR. LEIBOWITZ:    Under Judge Horton's direction let me ask you if you have ever been convicted or pled guilty, which is the same thing, to that charge in the city of Huntsville.

A    No sir, not of adultery.

Q    In Huntsville or any other place.

A    No sir.

Q    Have you ever been convicted of any offense, served time in prison?

A    No sir.

*    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *

Q    Did Tiller and a man by the name of Lester Carter come to your home the night I referred to when I asked you if you met Tiller at the factory two days before you left Huntsville, or three days?

A    No sir.

Q    Did you tell the man by the name of Lester Carter you would find him a girl, then did you get Ruby Bates and introduce her to him?

GENERAL KNIGHT:    We object.

COURT:    Overrule the objection.

A    No sir.

Q    Of course Ruby Bates visited at your home?

A    Yes sir, Ruby come to my home.

Q    Did Tiller, Ruby Bates and Lester Carter come to your home at one time about two or three nights, a short time, before you left Huntsville?

A    No one knew we were leaving but me and Ruby Bates, we were hunting work.

Q    Isn't it a fact that three days after you met Lester Carter you and he Tiller and Ruby Bates went walking along the L&N Railroad tracks?

A    No sir, we never have been on the railroad together.

Q    Isn't it a fact that you had intercourse with Tiller on the ground while Ruby Bates had intercourse with Lester Carter right beside you?

A    No sir, I didn't.

Q    A day or possibly thirty six hours before you were examined by the doctor?

A    I never was in Lester Carter's company before I was in Scottsboro in jail.

Q    Did you have intercourse with Tiller a short time before you left Huntsville?

A    No sir.

Q    On the railroad yards?

A    I have told you three times, and I am not telling you any more-- no sir I didn't.

*    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *

Q    Mrs. Price when you got to Chattanooga in the railroad yards just commence from that time onward please, what did you do?

*    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *

A    When I got off at Chattanooga I walked down by the corner of the depot and there was a boy standing there, and I asked him did he know where we could get a place to stay.

Q    Did you ask him for Mrs. Callie Brochie?

A    I first asked him did he know a woman by the name of Callie.

Q    Callie Brochie?

A    And he said there was a Callie down here on the street, he says four or five houses--

*    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *

Q    Did you stay there that night?

A    Yes sir

Q    Did you have a meal there that night?

A    Yes sir.

Q    Did Mrs. Brochie serve you?

A    Yes sir.

Q    Did you know Mrs. Brochie or was that the first time you knew that was Mrs. Brochie.

A    No sir, I didn't know her before as Mrs. Brochie, I knew her by Martin.

*    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *

Q    By the way Mrs. Price, as a matter of fact the name of Mrs. Callie you apply to this boarding house lady, is the name of a boarding house lady used by Octavius Roy Cohn in the Saturday Evening Post Stories--Sis Callie, isn't that  where you got the name?

GENERAL KNIGHT:    We object.

COURT:    Sustain the objection.

*    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *

Q    Orville Gilley met you all going down the spur and he was coming up the spur of the Central Railroad of Georgia, and Orville Gilley asked Lester Carter for a match?

A    Lester Carter and Gilley both might have been in Chattanooga; I knew they were in Chattanooga because they were on the oil tank as we come out of Chattanooga, but I didn't know their names.

*    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *

Q    Didn't you and Gilley and Lester Carter and Ruby Bates then go over a trestle near the railroad yards in Chattanooga and down a valley to where there was a clump of trees?

A    No sir.

Q    To a place called in Chattanooga, Hoboes Jungle?

A    No sir, I stayed with a woman by the name of Callie Brochie.

Q    Isn't it a fact you all want over in the jungle there and built a fire?

A    I didn't go to any jungles.

*    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *

Q    Isn't it true that Gilley had  intercourse with you in the jungles?

A    He absolutely did not-- I told you, that is the seventh time I wasn't in any jungle.

Q    Do you know a negro by the name of Lewis that lives in a shack right near those railroad yards--do you know any negro by the name of Lewis?

A     I don't know any negroes, I am not associating with negroes.

Q    Do you know a negro by the name of Lewis?

A    No sir, I do not.

*    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *

Q    Isn't it a fact you had been to Lewis' house on many many occasions and several other occasions on prior trips from Huntsville to Chattanooga?

A    I never was in Chattanooga but one time in my life and that is when I went there searching for work the 24th day of March-- I never was at any negro's house in my life.

*    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *
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