TESTIMONY OF JULIUS ROSENBERG, WITNESS FOR THE DEFENSE

BLOCH: If the Court, please, my first witness is the defendant Julius Rosenberg.

E. H. BLOCH: Now, Mr. Rosenberg, are you aware of the charge that the Government has leveled against you?

ROSENBERG: I am.

E. H. BLOCH: D o you know what you are being charged with?

ROSENBERG: Yes.

E. H. BLOCH: What are you being charged with?

ROSENBERG: Conspiracy to commit espionage to aid a foreign government.

E. H. BLOCH: And you have been here all the time that the witnesses who appeared for the prosecution testified?

ROSENBERG: Yes, sir, I have.

E. H. BLOCH: And amongst those witnesses did you hear your brother-in-law Dave Greenglass testify?

ROSENBERG: Yes, I did.

E. H. BLOCH: And did you hear your sister-in-law Ruth Greenglass testify?

ROSENBERG: I did.

E. R. BLOCH: Now I want to direct the following questions and try to have you focus your attention upon your recollection of their testimony. Mrs. Ruth Oreenglass testified here, in substance, that in the middle of November 1944, you came over to her house or you invited her to your house and you asked her to enlist her husband, Dave Greenglass, in getting information out of where he was working and deliver or convey that information to you.Did you ever have any conversation with Mrs. Ruth Greenalass at or about that time with respect to getting information from Dave Greenglass out of the place that he was working?

ROSENBERG: I did not.

E. H. BLOCH: Did you know in the middle of November I944 where Dave Greenglass was stationed?

ROSENBERG: I did not.

E. H. BLOCH: Did you know in the middle of November 1944 that there was such a project known as the Los Alamos Project?

ROSENBERG: I did not. . . .

E. H. BLOCH: Did you ever give Ruth Greenglass $250, for her to go out to visit her husband in New Mexico, for the purpose of trying to enlist him in espionage work?

ROSENBERG: I did not

E.H. BLOCH: Did you ever give Ruth Greenglass one single penny at any time during your life?

ROSENBERG: I did not.

E. H. BLOCH: Now Ruth Greenglass testified in substance, that she went out to visit her husband, and when she came back here she conveyed certain information which she had received from her husband, and I refer specifically to the names of certain scientists like Dr. Niels Bohr, Dr. Oppenheimer, Dr. Urey. Did you ever have a conversation with Ruth Greenglass in the month of December I944, in which any of those names were mentioned?

ROSENBERG: I did not have such a conversation. . . .

E. H. BLOCH: Did you know of the existence of the Los Alamos Project in December 1944?

ROSENBERG: I did not.

E. H. BLOCH: Dave Greenglass and Ruth Greenglass testified that about two days after Dave came into New York you came over to their house one morning and you asked Dave for certain information.Did you ever go over to the Greenglasses' house and ask them for any such information?

ROSENBERG: I did not....

Rosenberg testified that he never knew Greenglass was working on developing an atomic bomb. Saypol objected to Rosenberg's statement.

COURT: No, no, that is the only way he can answer the charges. We have got to find out what was in his mind.

SAYPOL: True.

COURT: At any time prior to January 1945, had anybody discussed with you, anybody at all, discussed with you the atom bomb?

ROSENBERG: No, sir; they did not.

COURT: Did anybody discuss with you nuclear fission?

ROSENBERG: No, sir.

COURT: Did anybody discuss with you any projects that had been going on in Germany?

ROSENBERG: No, sir.

COURT: On the atom bomb?

ROSENBERG: No, sir....

Rosenberg was shown a photograph of Yakovlev, the Soviet spymaster who fled to the Soviet Union.

ROSENBERG: I have never seen this man in my life.

COURT: Did you know anybody at all in the Russian Consulate office?

ROSENBERG: I did not, sir.

Rosenberg was asked about the testimony of Greenglass concerning Rosenberg's meeting in a car with a Russian agent.

E. H. BLOCH: Did any such incident occur?

ROSENBERG: That incident never occurred, sir....

COURT: Did you ever discuss with Ann Sidorovich the respective preferences of economic systems between Russia and the United States?

ROSENBERG: Well, your Honor, if you will let me answer that question in my own way I want to explain that question.

COURT: Go ahead.

ROSENBERG: First of all, I am not an expert on matters on different economic systems, but in my normal social intercourse with my friends we discussed matters like that. And I believe there are merits in both systems, I mean from what I have been able to read and ascertain.

COURT: I am not talking about your belief today. I am talking about your belief at that time, in January 1945.

ROSENBERG: Well, that is what I am talking about. At that time, what 1 believed at that time I still believe today. In the first place, I heartily approve our system of justice as performed in this country, AngloSaxon jurisprudence. I am in favor, heartily in favor, of our Constitution and Bill of Rights and I owe my allegiance to my country at all times.

E. H. BLOCH: Do you owe allegiance to any other country?

ROSENBERG: No, I do not.

E. H. BLOCH: Have you any divided allegiance?

ROSENBERG: I do not.

F. H. BLOCH: Would you fight for this country

ROSENBERG: Yes, I will.

E. H. BLOCH: If it were engaged in a war with--

ROSENBERG: Yes, I will, and in discussing the merits of other forms of governments, I discussed that with my friends on the basis of the performance of what they accomplished, and I felt that the Soviet Government has improved the lot of the underdog there, has made a lot of progress in eliminating illiteracy, has done a lot of reconstruction work and built up a lot of resources, and at the same time I felt that they contributed a major share in destroying the Hitler beast who killed six million of my co-religionists and I feel emotional about that thing.

E. H. BLOCH: Did you feel that way in 1943?

ROSENBERG: Yes, I felt that way in 1945--

E. H. BLOCH: Do you feel that way today?

ROSENBERG: I still feel that way.

COURT: Did you approve the communistic system of Russia over the capitalistic system in this country?

ROSENBERG: I am not an expert on those things, your Honor, and I did not make any such direct statement. E. H. BLOCH: Did you ever make any comparisons in the sense that the Court has asked you, about whether you preferred one system over another?

ROSENBERG: No, I did not. I would like to state that my personal opinions are that the people of every country should decide by themselves what kind of government they want. If the English want a king, it is their business. If the Russians want communism, it is their business. If the Americans want our form of government, it is our business. I feel that the majority of people should decide for themselves what kind of government they want.

E. H. BLOCH: Do you believe in the overthrow of government by force and violence?

ROSENBERG: I do not.

E .H. BLOCH: Do you believe in anybody committing acts of espionage against his own country?

ROSENBERG: I do not believe that.

COURT: Well, did you ever belong to any group that discussed the system of Russia?

ROSENBERG: Well, your Honor, if you are referring to political groups-- is that what you are referring to?

COURT: Any group.

ROSENBERG: Well, your Honor, I feel at this time that I refuse to answer a question that might tend to incriminate me.

COURT: I won't direct you at this point to answer; I will wait for the cross-examination.

Rosenberg was asked whether he had ever cut the side of a Jell-O box to use as a recognition signal.

E. H. BLOCH: Did any such incident ever take place?

ROSENBERG: It never did.

Rosenberg was asked about the nature of the visit with Greenglass when he was in New York on forlough.

E. H. BLOCH: Did you discuss politics with Greenglass that night?

ROSENBERG: Well, as every intelligent American did in those times, we discussed the war.

SAYPOL: May I ask to have the answer stricken as not responsive?

E. H. BLOCH: I consent.

SAYPOL: I don't want this man set up as a standard for intelligent Americans.

E. H. BLOCH: Now, I move to strike out Mr. Saypol's statement.

COURT: Disregard Mr. Saypol's statement and strike from the record "intelligent Americans."

E. H. BLOCH: Never mind about any intelligent American. We are asking you whether you and your wife and sister-in-law and brother-in-law discussed politics?

ROSENBERG: Yes, we discussed the war.

E. H. BLOCH: Was that unusual for you to discuss politics with your familv or friends?

ROSENBERG: No, it was not.

E. H. BLOCH: Have you any independent recollection of what specific subject you discussed that night with Dave and Ruth?

ROSENBERG: Well, we were talking about the effort all the different Allies were making in the war and we noted that the Russians were carrying at that particular time the heaviest load of the German Army....

E. H. BLOCH: Did you ever mention to Davey that you would support him or get the Russians to support him if he continued his college education?

ROSENBERG: I did not....

Rosenberg denied having contact with any employees of General Electric, a company which developed technology that would be of interest to the Soviets.

COURT: Did you know anybody working there?

ROSENBERG: Sure I did.

COURT: Whom did you know working there?

ROSENBERG: Morton Sobell.

COURT: How long had you known Sobell?

ROSENBERG: I went to school with him.

COURT: And you had known him continuously right up until the present day?

ROSENBERG: Well, sporadically for a time and then--

COURT: Rather close?

ROSENBERG: Well, he was a friend of mine....

Rosenberg testified as to his version of the conversation he had with Greenglass during the walk they took shortly before Greenglass was arrested.  Rosenberg said that during their walk Greenglass demanded $2,000. According to Rosenberg, Greenglass claimed Julius owed him for their failed business venture.(Greenglass had testified that during the walks Julius described how he might flee the United States and take a circuitous route to the Soviet Union.)

COURT: And you can't think of any reason whatsoever, can you, why David Greenglass would, of all the people he knew, his brother, all the other members of his family, single you out, as he did apparently and as you say he did, and say that you would be sorry unless you gave him the money?

ROSENBERG: Well, he knew that I owed--he had an idea that I owed him money from the business, and I guess that is why he figured he wanted to get money from me.

Rosenberg was asked to describe his interviews with the FBI conducted prior to his arrest.

ROSENBERG: Well, there was a Mr. Norton in the room sitting at a desk with a pad in front of him, and Mr. Harrington sat on the other side of the table. I sat down on the front side of the table and another member of the FBI came in and sat behind, and they started asking questions about what I knew about David Greenglass. First they tried to get my background, what relations I had with him. I gave them my school background, work background and I told them whatever I knew about David Greenglass' education and his work background.

E. H. BLOCH: Did you tell them that you had formerly been employed by the Government of the United States?

ROSENBERG: Yes, I told them, and at that point they said to me--they questioned me and tried to focus my attention to, as I notice now, certain dates in the overt acts listed in this indictment. They asked me questions concerning when David Greenglass came in on furlough. I didn't remember. I helped them as much as I could in what I could remember. At one point in the discussion, I would say it was about two hours after I was there, they said to me, "Do you know that your brother-in-law said you told him to supply information for Russia?" So I said, "That couldn't be so." So I said, "Where is David Greenglass?" I didn't know where he was because I knew he was taken in custody. They wouldn't tell me. I said, "Will you bring him here and let him tell me that to my face?" And they said, "What if we bring him here, what will you do?" "I will call him a liar to his face because that is not so." And I said, "Look, gentlemen, at first you asked me to come down an d get some information concerning David Greenglass. Now you are trying to implicate me in something. I would like to see a lawyer!Well, at this point, Mr. Norton said, "Oh, we are not accusing you of anything. We are just trying to help you."I said, "I would like to get in touch with the lawyer for the Federation of Architects and Engineers." I asked the FBI to please call him. Well, at this point Mr. Norton said, "Have a smoke, have a piece of gum. Would you like something to eat?" And the language he used in his actions were what the fellows at West Street would call conning--and we discussed around the point. Mr. Norton asked me again, "Did you ask David Greenglass to turn over information for the Russians?" And I said, "No." I denied it. And then we discussed again what periods of time David Greenglass came in. I didn't recall too well and I kept on asking Mr. Norton, "I want to get in touch with my lawyer."Finally, some time after lunch, it was probably between 10 and 1, my wife reached me at the FBI office and I told her that the FBI is making some foolish accusations, to please--

SAYPOL: May that--

E. H. BLOCH: Never mind what you told your wife--

SAYPOL: No, no, I do not mind what he told his wife but I mind his characterization about what the charges were.

COURT: Oh, now, wait a minute, Mr. Saypol; that objection doesn't mean anything. You are either going to object to what he told his wife--if that is what he told his wife--he has a right to repeat it here.

SAYPOL: I do not object to what he told his wife.

COURT: Then he can go right ahead.t

Rosenberg testified that he was finally permitted to call his attorney.

ROSENBERG: I told him I was down at the FBI, and he said, "Are you under arrest?" I said, "I don't know." He said, "Ask the FBI if you are under arrest." And I asked Mr. Norton, "Am I under arrest?" He said, "No." Then he said, "Pick yourself up and come down to our office," and I said, "Good-bye, gentlemen," and I left the FBI office.

Rosenberg testified that after his FBI interviews he mad no effort to remove any items from his house or conceal any information from authorities.

COURT: Did you know whether you were under surveillance by the FBI at that time?

ROSENBERG: No, I didn't know.

COURT: Did you think you were?

ROSENBERG: It didn't matter.

COURT: Did you think you were?

ROSENBERG: I didn't know.

COURT: I am asking you whether you thought you were.

ROSENBERG: I don't know, your Honor....

ROSENBERG: It occurred to me that they would have arrested me if they suspected me.

COURT: The answer is you didn't think you were under surveillance?

ROSENBERG: There was a possibility I could have been under surveillance.

COURT: Did you think there was that possibility?

ROSENBERG: Yes, it entered my mind....

E. H. BLOCH: Just one last question. Did you ever have any arrangement with Dave Greenglass or Ruth Greenglass or any Russian or with your wife or with anybody in this world to transmit information to the Soviet Union or any foreign power?

ROSENBERG: I did not have any such arrangement.

E. H. BLOCH: I think I am through, your Honor.

E. H. BLOCH: I am sorry, your Honor, I forgot to cover two incidents in connection with the testimony of Elitcher....

Rosenberg admitted in his testimony that he had visited Elitcher in Washington, D.C.

ROSENBERG: I was there alone and I was lonesome and I looked up in the telephone book for Mr. Elitcher's number, and I called him one evening.

E.H. BLOCH: Did he invite you over to the house?

ROSENBERG: Yes, he did.

Rosenberg testified that the visit was simply a friendly one, with pie and coffee, but no business.

E.H. BLOCH: Did you during the course of that evening ever say to Mr. Elitcher in specific words or by implication, that you wanted him to engage in espionage work, or let me put it this way, or that you wanted him to get certain information from the Government by reason of this access to certain secret information?

Cross-Examination:

SAYPOL: You told us about Greenglass taking you for a walk and demanding $2,000 from you. Did you tell your wife about this?

ROSENBERG: Yes, she wanted to help him even though I thought we should not after he tried to blackmail me.

COURT: Blackmail you?

ROSENBERG: Well, he threatened me to get money.

COURT: You said he told you that you would be sorry if you didn't get the money.

ROSENBERG: Yes. I consider it blackmail when someone says that.

COURT: Did he say what he would do to you?

ROSENBERG: No, he didn't.

COURT: Did he say he would go to the authorities and tell them that you were in a conspiracy with him to steal the atomic bomb secret?

ROSENBERG: No.

COURT: Do you think that was what he had in mind?

ROSENBERG: How could I know what he had in mind.

COURT: What do you mean by blackmail then?

ROSENBERG: Maybe he threatened to punch me in the nose or something like that....

SAYPOL: Now, how well did you know Elitcher in college?

ROSENBERG: Very casually.

SAYPOL: Did you go out with him socially?

ROSENBERG: I did not.

SAYPOL: Did you have girls, girl friends together?

ROSENBERG: We did not.

SAYPOL: And you graduated in I939, I think, didn't you?

ROSENBERG: That is correct.

SAYPOL: Then the next time that you saw him was at a swimming pool for a minute in Washington, in 1940; is that right?

ROSENBERG: That is correct.

SAYPOL: How long did you see him, for just a minute?

ROSENBERG: That's right.

SAYPOL: What did you talk about in that minute, very much?

ROSENBERG: Just, "Hello. I am working in Washington." That is what he said to me.

SAYPOL: Then you didn't hear from him or see him again until when?

ROSENBERG: Until sometime in '44. A cross-examiner picks up acorns as he heads for the meadow. Saypol asked him whether Elitcher was right in saying it was "D Day" and they drank a toast to the second front. No, he only remembered having coffee:

SAYPOL: Were you happy when the second front was opened?

ROSENBERG: Yes, I was happy when the second front was opened.

SAYPOL: And then four years later, when you were in Washington, you decided that you wanted to call him and pay him a visit?

ROSENBERG: That's right.

SAYPOL: Well, what was it that you wanted to see him about?

ROSENBERG: I was lonesome and I just wanted to see somebody to talk to.

SAYPOL: And out of the clear sky you looked in the telephone book under "E" for the name Elitcher and you called him up?

ROSENBERG: Mr. Saypol, I was looking in the phone book for any names that I could recognize as former classmates or people I knew at one time.

COURT: What names were you looking for?

ROSENBERG: For some names I might recognize.

COURT: You mean, you started with "A" and started going--

ROSENBERG: No, I didn't just start with "A"; I thought of a couple of people's names who might be in Washington; I remembered the incident at the swimming pool at that time, that Elitcher was in Washington, and perhaps he had a telephone.

Saypol asked Rosenberg why had he not called other people with whom he had worked in Washington.

ROSENBERG: I didn't know them socially.

SAYPOL: Did you know Elitcher socially?

ROSENBERG: No, but he had been a former classmate.

Saypol asked Rosenberg what he said to Elitcher when he called.

ROSENBERG: I said something to the effect: "I am in town; can I come over to see you."

SAYPOL: Well, did you tell him what your name was?

ROSENBERG: Sure.

SAYPOL: Did he recognize your name right away?

ROSENBERG: I don't recall if he did or if he didn't, but he says, "Come over."

SAYPOL: Did you tell him before that you were the fellow who used to go to school with him and saw him at the swimming pool for a minute four years ago?

ROSENBERG: I told him I was a classmate of his.

SAYPOL: Did you tell him about the swimming pool?

ROSENBERG: I didn't tell him on the telephone.

SAYPOL: Now tell us, what did you talk about? Did you tell him why you came to see him? Didn't he ask you, "Just why out of the clear sky do you pick on me to pay a visit to like this? I never really knew you."

ROSENBERG: He didn't say that....

SAYPOL: Had you known of Elitcher's activities in the Young Communist League at City College?

E. H. BLOCH: Well, if the Court please, I think that presupposes a state of facts that is not proven. I do not recollect that Elitcher testified that he was a member of the Young Communist League.

COURT: Yes, I am quite sure of that.

E. H. BLOCH: All right, I will withdraw my objection, your Honor.

JULIUS ROSENBERG: Can I state something, sir?

COURT: Yes.

SAYPOL: You will in a minute.

COURT: Let him state.

ROSENBERG: I would like to state, on any answer I made on this questions, I don't intend to waive any part of my right of self-incrimination, and if Mr. Saypol is referring to the Young Communist League or the Communist Party, I will not answer any question on it.

COURT: You mean, you assert your constitutional privilege against self-incrimination?

ROSENBERG: That's right....

Rosenberg testified that he Elitcher had conversations about the war.

COURT: Well now, did you feel that if Great Britain shared in all our secrets that Russia should at the same time also share those secrets in 1944 and 1945?

ROSENBERG: My opinion was that matters such as that were up to the Governments, the British, American, and the Russian Governments.

COURT: You mean the ultimate decision?

ROSENBERG: Yes.

COURT: Well, what was your opinion at the time?

ROSENBERG: My opinion was that if we had a common enemy we should get together commonly.

SAYPOL: Well, what did you know about the subject to express an opinion? Did you talk about it with others?

ROSENBERG: I read about it in the newspapers.

SAYPOL: Did you talk about it in groups?

ROSENBERG: Socially, when people came over to the house.

SAYPOL: Did you talk about it perhaps in any Communist unit that you might have belonged to?

ROSENBERG: I refuse to answer that question on the ground that it may incriminate me.

COURT: I want the jury to understand that they are to draw no inference from the witness' refusal to answer on his assertion of privilege. Proceed.

Rosenberg was asked about his dismissal from his job with the U. S. Signal Corps in 1945:

SAYPOL: What really happened to you, you were dismissed were you not?

ROSENBERG: I was suspended.

SAYPOL: Were you then dismissed?

ROSENBERG: That is correct.

SAYPOL: And what was the reason?

ROSENBERG: It was alleged that I was a member of the Communist Party. . . .

SAYPOL: It is not a fact that on that occasion you were told you were being removed from Government service because of the fact that information had been received that you were a member of the Communist Party?

ROSENBERG: I can't recall the date exactly.

SAYPOL: Can you recall the fact of being advised that that information that you were a member of the Communist Party was imparted to you?

ROSENBERG: I was down at Captain Henderson's office on one occasion.

SAYPOL: Is it not a fact that on that occasion you were told you were being removed from Government service because of the fact that information had been received that you were a member of the Communist Party?

E. H. BLOCH: If Mr. Saypol wants a concession I will concede right now that this witness was removed from Government service upon charges that he was a member of the Communist Party.

COURT: All right.

SAYPOL: Were you a member of the Communist Party?

ROSENBERG: I refuse to answer on the ground that it might incriminate me.

SAYPOL: Is it not a fact that in February 1944 you transferred from Branch 16-B of the Industrial Division of the Communist Party to the Eastern Club of the First Assembly under Transfer No. 12179?

ROSENBERG: I refuse to answer.

SAYPOL: Is that one of the charges Captain Henderson read to you?

ROSENBERG: That is.

SAYPOL: Did Captain Henderson advise you at that time that information had been received that while a student at City College you signed a petition for the granting of a charger to a chapter of the American Student Union, which has been reported to be or had been under the influence of Communists?

ROSENBERG: He informed me.

SAYPOL: Is that the fact?

ROSENBERG: I don't remember.

COURT: Mr. Saypol, I suggest that you ought to get to y our destination on this. I don't think that we ought to pursue this particular line in view of the witness' expression that he is going to assert h is privilege on the entire line.Is it not the fact that you were removed from that position for that reason--for these reasons, that you were a member and you were active in the party?

E. H. BLOCH: I have conceded so, your Honor.

COURT: Wait, let us get this clear. You did not concede, as I understand it, that he was removed because he was a member. You concede, as I remember, that he was removed because of the charges.

E. H. BLOCH: That is correct.

COURT: Well, you just said that you will concede that he was a member.

E. H. BLOCH: Well, I am conceding this, that this witness was removed from the Government service upon certain charges that were preferred against him under t he authority of the Secretary of War.

COURT: I understand that....

SAYPOL: And then you go on to say: "I am not now, and never have been a Communist member. I know nothing about Communist branches, divisions, clubs or transfers. I never heard either of the Division or the Club referred to. I had nothing to do with the so-called transfer. Either the case is based on a case of mistaken identity or a complete falsehood. In any event, it certainly has not the slightest basis in fact." Did you make that answer to those charges, yes or no?

ROSENBERG: I refuse to answer a question on the contents of that letter.

SAYPOL: I ask you whether you made that answer to those charges as I have read them to you?

E. H . BLOCH: May I advise the client, your Honor, that he should answer that question yes or no.

COURT: Very well.

ROSENBERG: Yes, I sent the letter in answer to those charges.

SAYPOL: Was that answer true at the time you made it?

ROSENBERG: I refuse to answer....

Rosenberg was questioned about his testimony that he did not know that he was under FBI surveillance.

SAYPOL: Did you think it was unusual to see an agent of the FBI, after he had talked with you at an interview, looking up at your shop?

ROSENBERG: That is his business, Mr. Saypol, not mine.

SAYPOL: What did you think about it?

ROSENBERG: The possibility he was looking for something.

SAYPOL: Somebody else?

ROSENBERG: I have no idea what he was looking for.

SAYPOL: You were not concerned about his presence outside your shop?

ROSENBERG: No, I wasn't concerned, Mr. Saypol, because I wasn't guilty of any crime.

COURT: The question is, did you think about what he was doing there?

ROSENBERG: No, it didn't enter my mind. It was his business.

COURT: The fact that you say an FBI agent looking into your place of business--

ROSENBERG: He wasn't looking; he was across the street from the Pitt Machine works and he was walking by nonchalantly looking in.

COURT: That was the same agent who had talked to you?

ROSENBERG: Yes.

COURT: You say it made no impression whatsoever upon you?

ROSENBERG: It didn't concern me.

COURT: I say, it made no impression on you?

ROSENBERG: I knew he may have been looking for something.

COURT: You didn't think it had anything to do with you?

ROSENBERG: It might have and it might not have, but it didn't concern me.

COURT: I am asking you whether you thought it had anything to do with you.

ROSENBERG: Maybe yes and maybe no. It didn't enter my mind as to what his purpose was.

COURT: Is that the best answer you could give?

ROSENBERG: Yes.

COURT: Maybe yes and maybe no?

ROSENBERG: Yes.

Rosenberg was asked about the console table that was in his home and was said to be used for espionage purposes. Rosenberg had testifies that it came from Macy's.

ROSENBERG: Mr. Saypol, could I say something on that? I have asked my attorneys to have the Macy's people go through their records and files, and I am sure if the Government request them they will find a sales slip with my signature on it, when I signed in Macy's in 1944 or 45, for that console table, and I believe I bought something else at that time, too. It was shipped to my house.

COURT: What did you have, a D.A. Account or cash?

ROSENBERG: No, I had to pay cash.

COURT: Why would your name be on a sales slip?

ROSENBERG: Because I had to give him the money, and there was--I had to have some notation like a receipt, that I paid the money. I believe the salesman brought over one of these folding booklets, and I signed one of these folding booklets.

COURT: Was it delivered, or did you take it with you?

ROSENBERG: It was delivered. It was too big for me to take with me.

SAYPOL: Do you know, Mr. Rosenberg, that we have asked Macy's to find that slip and they can't find it?

E. H. BLOCH: That s not so, your Honor. That is the statement I was going to make.

SAYPOL: I am responding to what Mr. Bloch said and what the witness has volunteered.

COURT: Mr. Bloch, please be seated. Youwill have your chance on redirect.

ROSENBERG: Your Honor, I have requested my attorneys to find that receipt.

COURT: You said that before.

ROSENBERG: And my attorneys told me that Macy's cannot find the receipt unless I gave them a number or copy of receipt that I had, because it is filed by number.

COURT: All right, go ahead.

ROSENBERG: Now, I feel that if somebody looks through all the numbers through all those years, they will find one for Julius Rosenberg, and it is worth finding if it is such an important issue.

SAYPOL: When did you see it last in the living room?

ROSENBERG: When I was arrested, sir.

SAYPOL: Did you have any trouble finding any furniture at that time?

ROSENBERG: That was on the floor of Macy's. There was a big display, many little tables were on the floor.

SAYPOL: The place was full of little tables?

ROSENBERG: That's right.

SAYPOL: Don't you know, Mr. Rosenberg, that you couldn't buy a console table in Macy's, if they had it, in 1944 and 1945, for less than $85?

ROSENBERG: I am sorry, sir. I bought that table for that amount. That was a display piece, Mr. Saypol, and I believe it was marked down.

Rosenberg was asked why he didn't tell the FBI about Greenglasses' desire to steal parts from the military:

SAYPOL: Did you think you should have volunteered it to them?

ROSENBERG: Well, when a member of the family is in trouble, Mr. Saypol, you are not interested in sinking him.

COURT: Were you trying to protect him at that time?

ROSENBERG: Well, I didn't know what he was accused of, your Honor. I had a suspicion he was accused of stealing some uranium at that time.

COURT: Well, in connection with that, were you interested in protecting him?

ROSENBERG: I wasn't interested in doing him any harm at that particular point.

COURT: You are not answering the question. You were interested in protecting him?

ROSENBERG: Not in protecting that act itself, but protecting the individual.

COURT: To the point where you would not reveal something which you felt--

ROSENBERG: Well, I wasn't asked a particular thing like that and there was nothing for me to reveal. I wasn't aware of the trouble he was in.

Rosenberg was asked if and when he became aware of the theft of secrets from Los Alamos.

ROSENBERG: Well, I read about the Harry Gold case.

SAYPOL: You read about the Klaus Fuchs case, too?

ROSENBERG: That is correct.

SAYPOL: You knew that David Greenglass had been questioned in February by an agent of the FBI regarding the theft of uranium, didn't you?

ROSENBERG: That is correct.

SAYPOL: Where did you find that out?

ROSENBERG: David told me.

SAYPOL: And you still say that you had no suspicion, when the agents questioned you, regarding the nature of the arrest of David Greenglass?

ROSENBERG: That's right, because David Greenglass himself told me that he didn't steal the uranium after that interview, and I believed him....

SAYPOL: Did you, in the month of June, 1950, or in the month of May 1950, have any passport photographs taken of yourself?

ROSENBERG: I did not.

SAYPOL: Did you go to a photographer's shop at 99 Park Row and have any photographs taken of yourself?

ROSENBERG: I have been in many photographer's shops and had photos taken.

SAYPOL: Did you have any taken in May or June of 1950?

ROSENBERG: I don't recall. I might have had some photos taken.

SAYPOL: For what purpose might you have had those photographs taken?

ROSENBERG: Well, when I walk with the children, many times with my wife, we would step in; we would have--we would pass a man on the street with one of those box cameras and we would take some pictures. We would step into a place and take some pictures and the pictures we like, we keep.

COURT: He is not asking you that. He is asking you about these particular pictures in June 1950. What was the purpose of those pictures?

ROSENBERG: Just--if you take pictures, you just go in, take some pictures, snapshots.

SAYPOL: What did you tell the man when you asked him to take those pictures in May or June 1950?

ROSENBERG: I didn't tell the man anything.

SAYPOL: Are you sure of that?

ROSENBERG: I didn't tell the man anything.

SAYPOL: See if you can't recall. Try hard. May or June 1950, at 99 Park Row.

ROSENBERG: I don't recall telling the man anything.

SAYPOL: You mean you might have told him something, but you don't recall it now?

ROSENBERG: I don't recall my saying anything at this time.

SAYPOL: What don't you recall? Tell us that.

ROSENBERG: I don't know, sir.

SAYPOL: Do you remember telling the man at 99 Park Row that you had to go to France to settle an estate?

ROSENBERG: I didn't tell him anything of the sort. . . .

SAYPOL: At the time David was talking about going to Mexico, what kind of pictures did you take and how many?

ROSENBERG: I don't recall.

SAYPOL: When did you find out Sobell was in Mexico?

ROSENBERG: When did I find out?

SAYPOL: You heard my question, didn't you?

ROSENBERG: Yes.

SAYPOL: Was it a hard one?

ROSENBERG: I head that Sobell was in Mexico through the newspapers.

SAYPOL: What did you have to do with sending Sobell away?

ROSENBERG: Nothing.

KUNTZ: I object to that, if your Honor please. There is no testimony here that he had anything to do with sending Sobell or anybody else away.

COURT: You are excited, Mr. Kuntz.

KUNTZ: I mean, to ask a question that way, I can convict anybody by that kind of question.

COURT: The jury will please disregard that statement by Mr. Kuntz, supposedly in behalf of his own client.

Cross-examination by Kuntz, attorney for Sobell:

KUNTZ: Now, I want to know whether in July 1948 or any time from the beginning of the world to today did Sobell ever give you a can with any film in it?

ROSENBERG: No, he did not.

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