COHN: Now, Mr. Greenglass, have you at our request prepared a copy of the sketch of the lens mold which you furnished to Rosenberg on that day?


COHN: Is this it?


COHN: We offer it in evidence.

E. H. BLOCH: Before I make any objection, may I ask the witness several questions?

COURT: Yes, you may have a voir dire. Go ahead.

E. H. BLOCH: When did you prepare this?

GREENGLASS: During the trial yesterday.

E. H. BLOCH: Are you saying that that paper represents a true copy of the sketch you turned over to Rosenberg?

GREENGLASS: To the best of my recollection at this time, yes.

The sketch was admitted into evidence.

Greenglass testified that Rosenberg asked David and Ruth Greenglass to visit him in Knickerbocker Village. When they arrived, a woman by the name of Ann Sidorovich was also there. Greenglass said that Rosenberg told him that Sidrovich would probably meet Greenglass in a movie theater in Denver to pick up information that he is able to get in Los Alamos. Because his contact might turn out to be someone else, Rosenberg cut a Jell-O box with a scissors and gave one half to Ruth Greenglass while keeping the other half. He told Greenglass that whatever person he sent to meet with him would carry the matching half of the Jell-O box as a recognition signal. The meeting point was changed from Denver to Albuquerque. Greenglass then testified as to a meeting (also in New York) arranged by Julius, with a Russian in a car. Greenglass described the lenses to the unknown Russian and answered his questions about activities in Los Alamos.

Cohn provided Greenglass with a Jell-O box and asked him to cut it in the way that he said Julius had during their meeting at his apartment.

Cohn asked Greenglass about his meeting in Albuquerque with Harry Gold, who turned out to be his contact.

COHN: Would you tell us exactly what happened from the first minute you saw Gold?

GREENGLASS: There was a knock on the door and I opened it. We had just completed eating breakfast, and there was a man standing in the hallway who asked if I was Mr. Greenglass and I said, yes. He stepped through the door and said, "Julius sent me," and I said, "Oh" and walked to my wife's purse, took out the wallet and took out the matched part of the Jell-O box. He produced his piece and we checked them and they fitted, and the identification was made. I offered him something to eat and he said he had already eaten. He just wanted to know if I had any information, and I said, "I have some but I will have to write it up. If you come back in the afternoon, I will give it to you."  I started to tell him about one of the people who would be good material for recruiting into espionage work-- He cut me short and he left and I got to work on the report.

COHN: Where did you work on the report?

GREENGLASS: In my combination living room and bedroom.

COHN: Tell us exactly what you did.

GREENGLASS: I got out some 8 by 10 ruled white paper, and I drew some sketches of a lens mold and how they are set up in the experiment, and I gave a description of the experiment.

COHN: Was this another step in the same experiment on atomic energy concerning which you had given a sketch to Rosenberg?

GREENGLASS: That is right, and I also gave him a list of possible recruits for espionage.

COHN: Did Harry Gold come back in the afternoon?

GREENGLASS: Yes at 2:30-- I gave him my report in an envelope and he gave me an envelope, which I felt and realized there was money in it and I put it in my pocket.

COHN: Did you examine the money at that point?

GREENGLASS: No, I didn't. Gold said, "Will it be enough?" and I said, "Well, it will be plenty for the present." And he said "You need it" and we went into a side discussion about the fact that my wife had a miscarriage earlier in the spring, and he said, "Well, I will see what I can do about getting some more money for you."

COHN: How much was in the envelope?

GREENGLASS: My wife and I counted it later. There was $500-- I gave it to her.

COHN: Have you prepared a sketch of the drawing which you gave Gold in June I943?


COHN: I offer it in evidence as Exhibit 6.

E. H. BLOCH: May I ask one question on the voir dire, before your Honor rules?

COURT: Go ahead.

E. H. BLOCH: When you made this sketch in 1950, did you rely solely on your memory as to what you had given Gold five years earlier?


E. H. BLOCH: I object to its admission.

COURT: I am admitting it. The weight to be given it will be . . . entirely up to the jury. It is being done for the purpose of permitting the jury to visualize what was turned over, and only insofar as that. It is not being introduced as the document which was given to Gold, because for apparent reasons the Government couldn't introduce that at this time....

Cohn asked Greenglass about a visit he had with Julius Rosenberg while on forlough in September, 1943.

GREENGLASS: He came up to the apartment and he got me out of bed and we went into another room so my wife could dress.

COHN: What did he say to you?

GREENGLASS: He said to me that he wanted to know what I had for him. I told him "I think I have a pretty good description of the atom bomb."

COHN: The atom bomb itself?

GREENGLASS: That's right.

Greenglass testified that Rosenberg asked him for a written description of experiments underway at Los Alamos. Greenglass said that he would prepare the descriptions. Rosenberg gave him $200.

COHN: Did you draw up a sketch of the atom bomb itself?


COHN: Did you prepare descriptive material to explain the sketch of the atom bomb?


COHN: Was there any other material that you wrote up on that occasion?

GREENGLASS: I gave some scientists' names, and I also gave some possible recruits for espionage.

COHN: Now, about how many pages would you say it took to write down all these matters?

GREENGLASS: I would say about twelve pages or so.

Greenglass testified that he and his wife Ruth drove to Rosenberg's home and gave him the written material in the presence of Ethel. When the prosecution attempted to introduce a recently prepared replica of the information Greenglass says was given to Julius, the defense objected. Bloch argued that it would threaten national security to make the material public, and that the exhibit should be sealed.

SAYPOL: That is a rather strange request coming from the defendants.

E. H. BLOCH: Not a strange request coming from me at the present.

SAYPOL: And I am happy to say that we join him.

COURT: It will be sealed after it is shown to the jury.

Bloch asked for a bench conference on the matter of how the potentially testimony should be handled.

BLOCH: Even at this late day this information may be of advantage to a foreign power. So I am satisfied that this be kept secret.

SAYPOL: The Department of Justice took up the matter of revelation with the Atomic Energy Commission and with the joint Congressional Committee on Atomic Energy, and it was left to my discretion how much of this material should be disclosed, on the premise that the primary obligation in the administration of justice was that the defendants were entitled to be apprised of the nature of the case against them.

COURT: Perhaps we can avoid this matter of clearing the courtroom if counsel can stipulate right now that the matters he is about to describe were of secret and confidential nature to national defense.

SAYPOL: Mr. William Denson, chief of the litigation section of the Atomic Energy Commission is here, and I will obtain his consent to such procedure.

COURT: How do counsel for the defense feel about this?

E. H. BLOCH: May I consult with co-counsel?

E. H. BLOCH: Your Honor, we cannot agree. I would like to stipulate it as an American citizen and as a person who owes his allegiance to this country.

COURT: May I ask counsel for Sobell why aren't you stipulating this?

PHILLIPS: I do not feel that an attorney for a defendant in a criminal case should make concessions which will save the prosecution from the necessity of proving things which we may be able to refute.

SAYPOL: If counsel are not unanimous, I am inclined to go forward with my proof.

COURT: (Addressing jury) Ladies and gentlemen, when a defendant is put on trial, under our form of government, I am happy to say, he is entitled to confrontation of all the evidence which the Government contends proves his guilt. That is his constitutional right. In view of the nature of the testimony we are about to hear, I am going to ask all spectators to leave the courtroom on the balance of this particular testimony. I am going to permit the press to be present, but we are going to trust to your good taste and good judgment on the matters of publishing portions of this testimony.

SAYPOL: There is also present in the court a representative of the Department of Justice, and a representative of the joint Congressional Committee on Atomic Energy. I take it that is agreeable?

COURT: That is agreeable.

Greenglass testified that Ethel Rosenberg, in his presence, typed the secret information on a portable typewriter while he and Julius clarified ambiguous and ungrammatical language in Greenglass's draft. Greenglass then testified that Julius bragged as the typing was in progress that he had stolen a proximity fuse when working at Emerson Radio.

COURT: Did he tell you what he did with that proximity fuse?

GREENGLASS: He told me he took it out in his briefcase. That is the same briefcase he brought his lunch in with and gave it to Russia....

Greenglass was asked if Rosenberg told him how he passed information to Russian agents.

GREENGLASS: He told me that if he wanted to get in touch with the Russians, he had a means of communicating with them in a motion picture theater, an alcove where he would put microfilm or messages and the Russians would pick it up. If he wanted to see them in person, he would put a message in there and by prearrangement they would meet in some lonely spot in Long Island.

COHN: Did you in the report you wrote for Rosenberg tell him about atomic explosion which would take place at Alamogordo, New Mexico?

GREENGLASS: Yes, in June 1943--

COURT: How long before the explosion did you tell him?

GREENGLASS: About a month before.


E. H. BLOCH You knew at that time, did you not, that you were engaging in the commission of a very serious crime?

GREENGLASS: I did. . . .

E. H. BLOCH: Did it occur to you at the time that you finally said to your wife, "I will do this" and then transmitted to her certain information that there was a possible penalty of death for espionage?


E. H. BLOCH: Are you aware that you are smiling?

GREENGLASS: Not very. . . .

E. H. BLOCH: And from the time in the latter part of November 1944, during your entire career in the Army, you continued to spy, did you not?


E. H. BLOCH: And you received money for that, did you not?


E. H. BLOCH: You received $500 from Harry Gold in Albuquerque, New Mexico for that, did you not?


E. H. BLOCH: Did you ever offer to return that money?

GREENGLASS: I did not.

Greenglass was asked about his testimony that when he was first asked to engage in espionage activities by Rosenberg, that he refused. Bloch asked him why he changed his mind.

GREENGLASS: I consulted with memories and voices in my mind.

BLOCH: Physically, did you consult with anybody?


E H. BLOCH: You have known your wife Ruth since childhood days?


E. H. BLOCH: Did you love her when you married her?


E. H. BLOCH: Do you love her today?


E. H. BLOCH: Do you love her more than you love yourself?


E. H. BLOCH: Do you love your children?

GREENGLASS: I do. . . .

E. H BLOCH: Did you at any time think of your wife while you were down here telling your story to the FBI?

GREENGLASS: Of course, I thought of her.

E. H. BLOCH: Did you think of your wife with respect to the fact that she may be a defendant in a criminal proceeding?

GREENGLASS: I did. . . .

E. H. BLOCH: Now, Mr. Greenglass, your wife has never been arrested, has she?

GREENGLASS: She has not.

E. H. BLOCH: And she has never been indicted, has she?

GREENGLASS: She has not. . . .

E. H. BLOCH: And your wife is at the present time home, taking care of your children, isn't that right?

GREENGLASS: That's right....

E. H. BLOCH: After you were arraigned, were you taken to jail and put in solitary confinement?

GREENGLASS: Yes, for three days. The reason I was confined, was because there was an erroneous story in the newspapers that I was going to commit suicide; so the keeper felt, well, he wasn't going to take it on himself, so he had me put in solitary and had my laces taken off my shoes and my belt taken away from me so I wouldn't commit suicide. That was the whole story. There was no other reason.

E. H. BLOCH: Now when for the first time did you have a visitor?

COURT: May I ask what the relevance of this is?

E. H. BLOCH: The relevancy of this entire line of testimony is to show that this witness is lying, in order to save his wife....

E. H. BLOCH: After three days in solitary you were treated just the way all other prisoners were treated?

GREENGLASS: That's right.

E. H. BLOCH: Did you tell the FBI about your wife's participation in the Jell-O box incident?

GREENGLASS: I did, but let me point out, I wasn't a lawyer. I didn't know it was an overt act or anything else. How was I to know that? I just told them the story as it happened. That was all. I was interested in getting out.

E. H. BLOCH: You were interested in getting out?

GREENGLASS: I said, all I was interested in was getting out the story. Don't misconstrue my words.

E. H. BLOCH: How long ago have you pleaded guilty?

GREENGLASS: A year ago.

E. H. BLOCH: Have you been sentenced?


E. H. BLOCH: Do you believe the Court will be easier on you because you are testifying here?

GREENGLASS: I don't believe that in testifying I will help myself to that great extent.

E. H. BLOCH: Will you clarify that?

GREENGLASS: To any great extent.

E. H. BLOCH: Would you say to any extent?

GREENGLASS: To any extent.

E. H. BLOCH: All right. Do you believe that by testifying here that you will help your wife?

GREENGLASS: I don't know what the Government has in mind with my wife and I can't answer for them....

E. H. BLOCH: When you went to high school and Brooklyn Polytech, did you fail in your subjects?

GREENGLASS: I was quite young at the time, about eighteen, and I liked to play around more than I liked to go to school, so I cut classes almost the whole term. Simple.

E. R. BLOCH: How many of the eight courses that you took did you fail?

GREENGLASS: I failed them all.

E. H. BLOCH: Did you go to Pratt Institute?

GREENGLASS: Yes, for a semester and a half. I had to work at night. I got good marks there.

E. H. BLOCH: Congratulations.

COURT: Strike that from the record.

But when the cross-examiner gambled beyond this, he lost.

E. H. BLOCH: You never got a science degree?


E. H. BLOCH: Did you ever study calculus, or thermodynamics, nuclear physics, or atomic physics?

GREENGLASS: I did not.

E. H. BLOCH: Do you know what an isotope is?


E. H. BLOCH: What is it?

GREENGLASS: An isotope is an element having the same atomic structure, but having a different atomic weight.

E. H. BLOCH: Did you learn that in Los Alamos?

GREENGLASS: I picked it up here and there.

E. H. BLOCH: You told us you snooped around to get information, is that right?


E. H. BLOCH: Can you give me an instance?

GREENGLASS: A man came to me with a sketch--with a piece of material and said, "Machine it up so that I would have square comers, so I could lay out a lens; come over and pick it up." I would go over to his place. He was a scientist. I would say, "What is the idea?" He would tell me the idea.

E. H. BLOCH: Tricky like, eh.

GREENGLASS: Nothing tricky about it.

COURT: Strike that out....

E. H. BLOCH: Now when you were inducted into the Army, you took an oath, didn't you? You know you have violated that oath?


E. R. BLOCH: Did you consider you were doing an honorable or dishonorable thing?

GREENGLASS: On the basis of the philosophy I believed in, I felt it was the right thing to do at that time.

E. H. BLOCH: Did you continue to think it was the right thing?

GREENGLASS: I was having my doubts.

E. H. BLOCH: When did you begin to have doubts?

GREENGLASS: Almost as soon as I started to do it.

COURT: Did you tell Mr. Rosenberg that you had doubts about the propriety of it?

GREENGLASS: I had a kind of hero worship there and I did not want my hero to fail, and that I was doing the wrong thing by him. That is exactly why I did not stop the thing after I had the doubts.

E. H. BLOCH: You say you had hero worship?

GREENGLASS: That is right.

E. H BLOCH: Who was your hero?

GREENGLASS: Julius Rosenberg.

E. H. BLOCH: I see. Did you have doubts when you took the money?

GREENGLASS: I had plenty of headaches and I felt the thousand dollars was not coming out of Julius Rosenberg's pocket. It was coming out of the Russians' pocket and it didn't bother me one bit to take it, or the $4,000 either.

E. H. BLOCH: Do you consider that the services you rendered to the United States during your army career warranted an honorable discharge?

GREENGLASS: I did my work as a soldier and produced what I had to produce, and there was no argument about my work, and since the information went to a supposed ally at the time, I had no qualms or doubts that I deserved the honorable discharge.

COURT: Do you feel that way today?

GREENGLASS: No, I don't.

E. H. BLOCH: When did you change your mind as to whether or not you were entitled to an honorable discharge?

GREENGLASS: I never thought about it until this moment.

E. H. BLOCH: Now that you have thought about it, do you believe that you were entitled to an honorable discharge?

GREENGLASS: In the light of today's events, I was not entitled to an honorable discharge.

E. H. BLOCH: Do you feel any remorse now for what you did down at Los Alamos?


E. H. BLOCH: Do you bear any affection for your sister, Ethel?


E. H. BLOCH: You realize the possible death penalty in the event Ethel is convicted by this jury?


COURT: Do you realize also that the matter of penalty is entirely in my jurisdiction, not within the jurisdiction of the jury?

GREENGLASS: I understand that, too.

E. H. BLOCH: And you bear affection for Ethel?


E. H. BLOCH: This moment?

GREENGLASS: At this moment.

E. H. BLOCH: Do you bear affection for your brother-in-law, Julius?


E. H. BLOCH: You and Ethel were brought up in your parents' home together?

GREENGLASS: Certainly.

E. H. BLOCH: You both lived in that house until Ethel was married to Julius?

GREENGLASS: That is correct.

E. H. BLOCH: How old was Ethel when she married Julius?

GREENGLASS: It was I939-- I guess she was about twenty-two.

E. H. BLOCH: How old were you at the time?

GREENGLASS: I was about seventeen.

E. H. BLOCH: Did you have any quarrels with your brother-in-law, Julius?

GREENGLASS: Only business quarrels. It didn't amount to anything.

E. H. BLOCH: Did you ever come to blows with Julius?

GREENGLASS: No, I didn't.

E. H. BLOCH: Do you remember an incident in the corner candy story at Houston and Avenue D when your brother, Bernie, had to separate both of you?

GREENGLASS: It slipped my mind.

E. H. BLOCH: Did you hit Julius?

GREENGLASS: I don't recall if I actually hit him.

COURT: Do you remember what occasioned that?

GREENGLASS: It was some violent quarrel over something in the business. I don't recall exactly what it was. As a matter of fact, I didn't even recall the fight until just this moment.

COURT: Subsequent to that, did you patch things up?

GREENGLASS: Certainly. We were very friendly after that.

E. H. BLOCH: After you were arrested, did you not instruct your attorney to sue Julius Rosenberg for money you claimed he owed you?


E. R. BLOCH: You told us that Rosenberg told you about receiving a console table from the Russians. Was that console table used for eating purposes?

GREENGLASS: That console table was used for photography.

E. H. BLOCH: For photography?

GREENGLASS: That's right. Julius told me that he did pictures on that table....

Bloch showed Greenglass a Jell-O box and asked him if it was similar to the one he had cut up years before. Greenglass replied, "They made a darker-colored box at that time."

E. H. BLOCH: Are you color blind?


E. H. BLOCH: Do you know what color this is?


E. H. BLOCH: May we recess until tomorrow, your Honor? I have worked hard all day.

COURT: We will recess at this point, ladies and gentlemen, until 10:30 tomorrow morning....

Greenglass was shown a brown paper bag (exhibit 10) that he said contained $4000 when it was given to him by Rosenberg.

E. H. BLOCH:Can you tell us what color that bag is?

GREENGLASS: From previous experience, when I see a shading of this nature, I say it is brown. I don't actually see the color brown, but I say it is brown and I know that I have heard words to the effect that "brown paper bag.... brown manila paper," I realize that it is brown; everybody accepts it as brown, so I call it "brown."

E. H. BLOCH: Even though you are not sure this is brown?


Greenglass had testified that he had been given $500 at one time by Rosenberg, and that the currency was all $20 bills. Bloch asked Greenglass how many twenties there were.

SAYPOL: Is this a test?

E. H. BLOCH: Yes, it is a test.

GREENGLASS: You divide 500 by 20?

SAYPOL: The jury would know the answer without testimony.

COURT: He wants to see now whether he knows mathematics.

GREENGLASS: Twenty-five 20-dollar bills.

SAYPOL: Will counsel concede that he passed the test?

E. H. BLOCH: Yes, I think--well, I better not say....

Redirect examination:

SAYPOL: By the way, Mr. Greenglass, you told us that you are color blind, is that correct?


SAYPOL: Can you nevertheless distinguish shadings and dark and light?

GREENGLASS: I can do that.