The Trial of Dan White: Trial Testimony of Denise Apcar (White's administrative assistant)
Source: The Trial of Dan White by Kenneth W. Salter (1991)

Q During the time that you worked with the then Supervisor John Barbagelata, were you aware of any threats made to him or members of the Board?
A Most definitely, there were threats, and there were threats to Supervisor Barbagelata frequently, it was general knowledge around City Hall that threats were a commonplace, and violent situations occurred frequently.
Q Was there anything in particular with regard to Mr. Barbagelata?
A Yes, he had a candy box bomb delivered to his home one time, he had bullet holes through his business office, and had a bodyguard when I first met him, because he was in public a lot, was campaign­ing, and generally he received quite a number of threats.
Q Had you ever heard or known that Supervisors in the City Hall at that time were carrying guns, keeping guns at City Hall?
A Yes, it was general knowledge that Supervisors had guns, and I never saw one, but I assumed they carried them. . . .
Q What was your position with Mr. White?
A I was his Administrative Assistant. . . .
Q Would you then say you were a close friend or ally of Mr. White's?
A Yes, I was. . . .
Q Did he take the job seriously?
A He took the job very seriously, wanted to do the best job he could. He wanted to have a staff that would agree with him; that they would work hard, they would do the absolute best they could do.
Q Did he, in fact, work at the job fairly hard?
A He worked harder than I did.  In the beginning he came in at 7:00 o'clock in the morning, and he would stay well into the evening when there were meetings, and put in a lot of time.
Q Now Harvey Milk, the late Harvey Milk, was also elected in that same election year; is that correct?
A Correct. . . .
Q How did Daniel White and Harvey Milk get along, generally?
A They got along very well.
As a matter of fact, they were good friends in the beginning, and they liked each other personally very much.
Q How about politically, did they have differences there?
A Yes, they had political differences, definitely.
Q At that time, also, George Moscone was the Mayor of this city; how did Dan White and George Moscone get along?
A They shared common interests in athletics, which always gave them something to talk about.  They were personal-they were friends in a casual way, and there was absolutely no animosity between them.
Q How about politics, were they generally the same in politics?
A No, they were not, and that was evident quite early, they were not. . . .
Q Who was his (White's) constituency, basically, what district did he come from?
A He came from the Eighth District, which is a middle-class, hard-working, blue-collar, white-collar mix, racial mix. They never really had a voice at City Hall before, and after the district elections, Dan White was definitely a voice for them.
Q This was the first election after we had district elections; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Now, you mentioned that he was hard-working initially, when first met him, when you worked with him on the Board. Did there come a time when that seemed to change a bit?
A Yes.  I think it started as early as March. . . .1978.
Q What did you notice about the changes in him?
A Well, he became frustrated with the job quite early. He was having difficulty at that time adjusting to the political process, as to ups and downs, give and take, and he became moody and with­drawn, and started to come much less, started to cancel meetings, just basically depressed a lot.
Q Did you notice anything about his health habits or diet that was irregular?
A Yes, he would ask me to buy him candy a lot during lunch breaks and board meetings and at recess, and he ate a lot of candy, and he would eat doughnuts, junk food, sugar drinks.
Q Was that unusual?
A It was very unusual. When I first met him he said he never wanted anything but milk, never drank, didn't smoke or drink coffee, and it was very unusual. He worked out a lot, was physically fit. He always ate very healthy foods.
Q Did he seem to, in your opinion, gain weight after you had known him?
A Yes, it was very slight at first. I didn't really notice, but I started to notice it in his face, which became puffy, and his pants would fit tighter.

Q Did he ever express to you any concern that he wasn't spend­ing any time with his child or family?
A Yes, he did. He was frustrated at that a lot. He didn't seem to-didn't want his child to be with a baby sitter, and it was evident that his child had to be with a baby sitter because of the pressures of his job and his wife had to work.
Q Now, did there come a time later in 1978, when you noticed his mood alter again or change, or in any way become different?
A Yes, it just became worse. From March on it was much more difficult to get Dan to come to meetings, to want to do the typical day-to-day things that go on at the Board of Supervisors. He was withdrawn; he wasn't happy, and he wanted to do so much, and he couldn't do a hundred percent.  He felt he had to do a hundred per cent. Ninety per cent wasn't enough to him.  So, he wanted to-he was so frustrated, just couldn't do everything, and he became very withdrawn and moody, and it ac­centuated in the summer, around July and August of '78. . . .
Q Did you ever notice the time during the late summer meetings that he did go to, that went well or poorly?
A There was one meeting in which he came off very, very well. . . .Afterwards he spoke to the-to this crowd of merchants, and this was a potential, antagonistic situation, and after the meeting I was euphoric. I thought he won them over. They were giving him a standing ovation. We got in to my car, and he looked so-he looked pale, and he looked exhausted, as if he had been running 20 miles. He was-didn't want to talk about it, didn't feel well, and he wanted me to go to a doughnut store, buy him doughnuts. He consumed about five doughnuts in a matter of seconds, and he looked very, very withdrawn. It just really shocked me. I didn't know what to think.
Q Now, some time after October, did it come to your attention that Dan White was going to resign, or did resign?
A I never knew he was going to until he did.
Q All right. How did that occur, the resignation?
A Well, he came to me in the afternoon, on Friday-it was a Friday, and it was on November 10th, and he said, "Denise, I'm go­ing to resign,” and he wanted me to help him write his letter, and I was upset and shocked and very hurt. . . .
Q After the resignation, did you meet with Ray Sloan and discuss the resignation itself, what possibly you could do about it?
A Yes, we met for breakfast after he had resigned, and we had our personal differences, but they were based on experiences with Dan White, but after he had resigned, there wasjust a sense of com­munity, you know, we got together and we talked about it, and we talked-we shared stories about Dan's behavior, which was peculiar to me, and peculiar to Ray Sloan, who worked with him at his business on Pier 39.
We discussed his behavior and his resignation, and he wanted to know how it came about, and the time wore on, and as we were talking, we realized that there were some definite problems with Dan that possibly needed a psychiatrist. . . .
Q Did there come a time when you and Ray met with Dan White? 
A Well, it started out defensively. It was Dan against us, and we went back and forth, and we explained to him how we were feeling sorry for what had happened; that he wasn't going to represent the people that he wanted to represent; that he had so much support in his district, in which he had won by an overwhelming margin, and the fact that he had worked the hardest to get there. He was giving it all away for what seemed to be a temporary measure, financial, economic crunch, that seemed to be temporary. We wanted to make him realize that he had four more years of his term, that could be a very successful term, and we wanted to see if he knew that he had our support and that we would stay with him if he wanted it back.
Q Okay. How was he reacting to the suggestions, or what was his general demeanor?
A Well, at first, he was quite defensive, felt that he didn't owe anybody anything, he felt that he had done the best job he could, he couldn't survive, and we felt that, as I have said, that it was temporary; that he didn't realize that the burden that was on him right then was going to be relieved shortly. The business was just opening, and the economic pressures were going to be relieved, we were sure of it, and we just wanted to see if he was sure of what he had done. He was defensive with us.

Q Had he told you that he resigned because of his economic pressures?
A Yes, he had.
Q Did you feel that was an accurate reason for his having resigned?
A No, it wasn't an accurate reason. It was only part of a large number of reasons, one of which being he was very frustrated with the job. He was a very honest, hard-working Supervisor, and he wasn't perceived as an honest, hard-working Supervisor, and that was very frustrating for him, as well as for all of us.
Q Now, some time after your meeting with Dan White, and Ray, did he go and see the Mayor about getting the job back?
A After we discussed it with him, he changed his mind, much to our surprise. He just snapped, changed his mind, and he wanted to go see the Mayor, thought it was a great idea, and he mentioned to us then that his family had talked to him, they offered him financial support over the weekend, which I wasn't aware of, and so he went to see the Mayor at 8:00 o'clock that evening. . . .
Q And did Dan ask the Mayor for his resignation or job back?
A Yes, he did. . . .what the Mayor said was: That he is a good Supervisor, I have no problems with that man, and a man can change his mind, a man has the right to change his mind, and a good man like Dan White shouldn't be shoved out of the political process.
Q Now, did there come a time when that response changed or altered politically from the Mayor's office?
A Yes, it came in various forms. . . .
Q Did there come a time when Dan White or you, as his aide, requested to go out and see if there was support in District 8 for him?
A Yes, at the end of that week, on Saturday, Dan met with Mayor. Moscone and it was a private meeting in his office around noon, on Saturday afternoon, and he said: I'm going to reappoint you. I want you to show support when I call a press conference.  I just want to have letters on my desk, and I want to-want to be able to prove that you are the Supervisor that they want out there.
Q So did you assist in obtaining a showing of the support in the District. . . .
A Well, that afternoon Dan and I bought 1,000 envelopes, 1,000 stamps, and we hand-addressed every single one, well into the evening. We then organized a campaign of leaders in the community that had worked on this campaign, distributed these self-addressed and stamped envelopes.
We figured that with a thousand delivered in the community and if we received fifty-if the Mayor received fifty per cent, then we were doing well, and there was a lot of support for that, and the people were enthusiastic. . . .
Q Did the press people from the Mayor's office ever make a statement at that time as to the number of letters that were coming in, or anything such as that?
A Yes, they did, said that 30 letters had been received, and that was all.
Q Do you believe that there were-they were in excess of that?
A Well, I was well aware that there were over 300 letters. My tally alone was over 300.
Q Did there come a time when it appeared that Dan White was not going to get reappointed?
A I recall my feeling he wasn't going to get the appointment, was on Thanksgiving morning, I think November 23rd or 4th, and there was an article in the Chronicle that had a picture of a woman, and said that most probably she would be the new Supervisor, and that the Mayor's office was intending to appoint her, and at that point, I realized that that story was probably leaked to the press, and that was the truth.
Q Did you see him on the 26th of November, at any time?
A Yes, I did. . . .About 10:30 in the evening.
Q Did he mention to you anything about any telephone calls that he had received?
A Yes. As I walked in the door, he mentioned that he just received a call from Barbara Taylor, from KCBS Radio, she had a good source that told her that he wasn't going to get the appointment, and did he have a comment.  He said-he told me that he said he didn't know of any such information, and he had no comment, and hung up.
Q It was apparent to you at that time, at least you suspected, he wasn't going to get reappointed; is that fair?
A Yes.
Q Did he appear to come to the same conclusion as you?
A No.
Q Did he talk to you about anything in that regard? Did he tell you why he still thought he might get-might be reappointed?
A Well, the Mayor had told him: I'm going to reappoint you, and Dan always felt that a person was going to be honest when they said something. He believed his word, and he believed it up until the end.
Q Now, on the 27th of November, did you have occasion to talk to Dan White in the morning?
A About 9:15, or so. I talked to him twice.
Q Describe for me those two times that you talked to him, and was this in person or was this as to telephone calls?
A I called him. The arrangement was that I was supposed to call him. The night before we made an arrangement to call him, and I was supposed to tell him what happened at the rally, in the morning. We had a rally of supporters convening on City Hall, kind of a last-ditch effort to show support.  We felt that petitions were important, because we had the situation then where we had an official record of that.
Q Let me back up for a bit. I take it this rally wasn't spontaneous, you had put that together?
A Right. . . .When the press reported only 30 letters had come in, we realized something was going on. I realized something was going on, and I felt that it was imperative that we have an official record of how much support we could get. . . .
Q How many signatures did you get?
A I was very successful. We were very happy, and we gathered 1,100 signatures, approximately.
Q Now, you mentioned that you had talked to Dan White on two occasions, the first time was by predesign; did you talk to him again on that morning?
A Yes.
Q What was that conversation about?
A The first time I called him I told him that-what happened at the rally, and what happened at the rally is that the Mayor refused to meet with the supporters, and he had seen the supporters in front of the City Hall, waiting for him to drive up, and he must have in­structed his driver to avoid them, and so he went around the other side of the building and got in, and the car came back around the building, and I was watching this, I was there, and the car came back around the building, and the Mayor wasn't in the car.  So, the people were-in the rally, were kind of upset at that, de­cided to march up to his office with their posters and petitions, and there was TV cameras there, I believe, I remember that. . . .
Q What was his reaction on the telephone call?
A He had no strong reaction to it. He was-he wasn't upset. I was upset, but he wasn't upset. . . . .
Q Did there come a time when he telephoned you back?
A Yes, after the second telephone call he phoned me back.
Q Did he ask you to come pick him up?
A Right.
. . .
Q Did you notice anything peculiar about him in the car, as you drove him to City Hall? . . .
A Well, he was-he looked very different to me, and he wouldn't look at me, and that was unusual. He was nervous, and he was agitated. He was very upset.  He was very mad that the Mayor wasn't going to give him the courtesy of telling him first.
Q Did he tell you why he was going down to City Hall?
A He told me he wanted to talk to the Mayor, he wanted the Mayor to tell him to his face that he wasn't going to get the ap­pointment.
Q Did he also mention that he was going to talk to Harvey Milk?
A Yes, he did.
Q Was there any indication in the car that he was going to do anything violent that day?
A No.
Q When you got to-had he expressed some reason for going to talk to Harvey Milk?
A He was-he knew that Harvey Milk had been working against his appointment, and he was mad at that, and he wanted to talk to Harvey about it.  He felt that, basically, they were friends, and he just wanted to confront him with that: Why are you working against me? What have I done to you, that sort of thing.
Q When you arrived at City Hall, where did you let Dan White off, out of your car?
A I let him off in front of City Hall, Polk Street side. . . .
Q Did he mention that he wanted to use your car later that morning?
A Yes, he did. He mentioned that he wanted to go see his wife at Pier 39 after he talked to the Mayor and Harvey Milk. He wanted to borrow my car to get there.
Q Did you give him any keys on that morning?
A Yes, I gave him one key.
Q What was that key to?
A It was a key to Room 237 of City Hall.
Q And what is Room 237?
A It's a door that admits certain people into the back of the Super­visors' offices.
Q Did he at any time take your car-did he take your car key or ask for your car key at that time?
A No.
Q Did you have an extra car key you could give him?
A Yes.  Yes, he did, and he knew that, too.
Q So it's clear, you gave him one key to 237, but he did not take the key to the side door, in the McAllister Street well, nor did he take the key to your car; is that correct?
A Correct.
Q And he knew those keys were available to him?
A Yes, the one key was his. I was just using it.
Q Which key was that?
A The key to the McAllister Street well.
Q Where did you go after you left him off?
A Well, I noticed that my gas tank was empty and I decided that I would get just a little bit of gas so that he wouldn't run out when he was using my car.
Q Did you go get that gas?
A I did.
Q When did you next see Dan White on that morning?
A I next saw him when he carne in to get my car key. . . .
Q How did he appear to you at that time?
A Well, he looked terrible. He looked-he was running, and he was yelling, and just yelled, “Denise, give me the key." . . .
Q Did you telephone his wife?
A I did.  I was so shocked, so startled, I called her, warned her he was coming, that he looked like he was going to cry.
MR. SCHMIDT: Nothing further. Thank you.  
Q Now, I think you told us here that you noticed some changes in him?
A Yes, I did.
Q When did you notice those changes to come about?
A I first noticed them around March. He started to become depressed and withdrawn about a lot of things. He never-we never talked about it. . . .
Q Well, how did this depression manifest itself, that you noticed, in March?
A I don't think there was any particular event that produced it. I think it was-he just started to become disillusioned with the process of City government.  He just didn't feel that he was getting a good grasp. If he was getting a good grasp, he didn't care for it.
Q Did he ever say to you, or express himself, so as you heard, that he felt politics, particularly local government, as it obtains or obtained here in San Francisco, was corrupt, for example?
A No, he never said that.
Q Well, I think you said something about it, or used the word "disillusioned."
A I think he was disillusioned with the manner in which politi­cians conducted themselves....
Q You told us then that it was a few days thereafter (after White's resignation) that you and Mr. Ray Sloan had discussed Mr. White together? . . .
A Yes, that's true.
Q Is that when you said or you believed that he possibly needed the services or at least a consultation with the psychiatrist?
A Yes, we discussed that at one time. . . .
Q Well, was it discussed in the sense or in the flavor that: Well, he's crazy to do something like this, or was it something in more depth?
A I think it started out in that way. That we were so-that-that it was such an impulsive decision, and a lot of his actions just prior to that were strange.
Q We often say things, don't we, in referring to someone's conduct that may not be approved by ourselves: Well, he should see a psychiatrist. He's crazy. Was it in that flavor?
A No, it wasn't.
Q Did you at that time believe that Mr. White was somehow mentally ill?
A I don't know if I would characterize it-if I would have characterized it then as mentally ill. There were specific things that had gone on recently that were very, very peculiar, and I sensed that he wasn't acting with his full faculties.
Q Please explain to me what you regarded his full faculties to be?
A Well, I would-I would give an example in that when he resigned-a person who would resign would consult people involved first. They would discuss the legal ways of resigning. They would discuss it ahead of time so that there wouldn't be a vacancy in the position, and that would be an orderly manner in which to resign, and that would be someone who thought it out and was thinking prop­erly. And in this case, he wasn't. . . .
Q Miss Apcar, May I ask you: Have you ever heard of persons resigning positions that they held?
A Elected people?
Q Any kind of position. Position of employment or a position of elective office even?
A Certainly.
Q Well, was this resignation tendered by Mr. White regarded by you as something unusual?
A It was regarded as highly unusual. . . .
Q Did you ever tell his wife you thought he needed a psychiatrist, to consult with professional help in that connection?
A No, I don't-I never-I don't recall ever telling his wife that he needed a psychiatrist, but I do recall telling his wife on many occasions that he was very depressed, and that what was wrong? And that I noticed he was acting peculiarly at work.
Q Miss Apcar, do you believe that he was depressed because he was somehow a little disappointed with the activities of his colleagues on the Board of Supervisors?
A That's fair, yes.
Q Do you feel that he felt some disappointment in not being able, to achieve perhaps as quickly as he would like some of his objectives on behalf of his constituents in District No.8? . . .
A He never felt any disappointment that he hadn't tried his best to achieve them.
Q Do you feel that there was any disappointment felt by him and entertained by him that having not achieved certain objectives no matter how hard he tried?
A On occasion, yes.
Q Well, what was it that you felt caused or was the source of this feeling of being depressed that you've ascribed to Mr. White?
A I think it was general, general feeling, that the people that he worked with were not honest and didn't live by the same prin­ciples that he did, and that disappointed him.
Q Who were those persons whom he felt, with whom he worked were not honest?
A Just about everyone.
Q Well, let's take the late Mayor George R. Moscone. Would you include the late George R. Moscone within those persons whom Mr. White regarded as being dishonest?
A Yes, I would.
Q Well, what causes you to arrive at that conclusion, or to support that statement? . . .
A Well, the Mayor said, and I watched him say it, that "I'm going to reappoint you. You're a hard working man and you deserve the job. A man has a right to change his mind. And if it comes to a legal question as to whether I should appoint you, I will." He said that to Dan on two or three occasions, and I saw him, and the public saw it, and the press reported it, and it became to be a false statement in the end.
Q Did Mr. White entertain such feelings of dishonesty as he would ascribe to certain of his colleagues including Harvey Milk, the late Supervisor of District Five?
A On occasion, yes.
Q What supports your conclusion in that regard?
A Basically, it was vote trading situations where you'd lobby the fellow Supervisor for a vote, and Harvey was one that he would talk to about issues and concerns, and Harvey would say, “I'll give you my vote,” and he'd vote differently. . . .
Q Well, how does that relate to his feelings that Harvey Milk was dishonest?
A Well, what I said was he didn't question the procedure of lob­bying. But once a person said I'm going to vote a certain way, Dan believed that the person would then do that.
Q Did he ever tell you that Mr. Harvey Milk had expressed himself as going to prospectively vote a certain way and then when it came time to vote in fact voted another way?
A Harvey Milk and others, yes. . . .
Q Would you say that he was shocked by this type of behavior?
A Yes.
Q Would you say that he was offended by this type of behavior?
A I-I think I would say that.. . .
Q Now, some resort was had to a lawsuit by Mr. White in connec­tion with his having tendered his resignation, isn't that correct? . . .
A It was filed on a Friday, so it would be the Friday, November 24th. I'm guessing. . . .
Q What was it that, if you know, brought about that initiation of that lawsuit, and what was its purpose?
A The lawsuit was brought about to expand the options for Dan to regain his seat back. The options being that lawyers had reviewed the City Attorney's opinion which expressed the legal technicalities of his resignation, and they found in that that he had resigned to the Clerk of the Board of Supervisors and his intent [was] to give his letter to the Clerk of the Board of Supervisors but in fact it was not his intent. He didn't know it was even necessary, and when he resigned he gave it directly to the Mayor and never intended a copy to go to the Clerk....

Q Can I understand that, then, on or about November the 15th, give or take a day, that there was some belief entertained by you and Mr. White, or apprehension, that the Mayor would not appoint Mr. White as he had indicated in his press conference? . . .
A I would tell him daily what was going on at City Hall and casually talk to him and tell him that the letters weren't being tallied. It doesn't look like-it looks like they are changing their mind. I didn't know what's going on. There was a letter that the Mayor wrote to Dan White, as a matter of fact, that definitely expressed his opinion. He said, "I have no intention of-I didn't make a promise to you or to anyone,” and that was directly contrary to what Mr. Moscone had said to Dan White himself. And that letter was issued immediately after he had personally met with him.. . .
Q [By Mr. Nonnan] Miss Apcar, would you look at No. 57 now which has been admitted into evidence in this trial?
A (Reading):
November 20th, 1978. The Honorable Dan White, Board of Supervisors. 150 Shawney Avenue. San Francisco.
"Dear Dan:
This is in response to your letter of November 20, 1978.
The last thing I want to do is deprive the citizens of District Eight of their necessary representation before our Board of Supervisors. As I told you this past Saturday in my office, however, I have received a great many communications from the residents of District Eight-some from your public opponents, others from your past supporters-which have urged me not to reappoint you to the Board of Supervisors.
As I informed you this past Saturday, I am going to take an addi­tional week in which to review this situation, and to receive further communications on the subject from the citizens of District Eight, some of which may conceivably benefit you. But I must reiterate that I have not made a commitment of any kind to appoint you-or any other San Franciscan-to the position of Supervisor from District Eight. ­
Sincerely, George R. Moscone, Mayor."
Q When you read this to Mr. White over the telephone, was there then some discussion or some editorial of your thoughts about it? . . .
A I was shocked at the letter, especially the comments that said, "I must reiterate that I have not made a commitment of any kind to appoint you,” and just two days ago I was with Dan on Saturday when he came from the Mayor's Office and he said, "That the Mayor is going to reappoint me. I just have to show letters. I just have to get letters into his office."  And Dan also said that the Mayor had told him to keep it-to keep it low, not to tell anybody. And then this letter was public and released to the press that day. And it was very shocking.
Q Did you somehow feel that, well, the Mayor had double crossed Mr. White?

A I wouldn't use those words. . . .
Q From your discussion with Mr. White over the telephone, in reading the content of this letter to him, the Xerox copy of which you had received and which you learned had become public, did he express himself in any way suggestive of disappointment or anything stronger?
A No, he didn't. He was calm about it. I, as I have said before, was mad. I was the one that always was mad, and he was calm. He said, "Gee, George told me to keep it quiet. There he goes writing a letter."
Q Now, you were angry or mad, to use your word, and all that he did was to express some surprise?
A That's correct. And I was surprised at his nonchalant attitude.
Q Did you tell him that he should do anything about this?
A No. . .
Q Bringing us around then to the next morning, which would be the morning of the 27th, you called him first; is that right?
A Yes, I did.
Q What was that conversation?
A That conversation was to relay to him what happened at the rally.
Q Specifically, which rally?
A The rally where the people who had gathered the petition and signatures, and they were to go and present those signatures to the Mayor as he came into the building.
Q They were waiting at City Hall?
A Right.
Q How many persons were there?
A About forty. . . .
Q Did you, in fact, see the Mayor-­
A Yes, I did.
Q (Continuing:)-arrive in his automobile?

A It stopped at the intersection of McAllister and Polk, and that is where I saw him, to my left, as I was in front of the building. I looked to my left, saw him.
Q Then the vehicle just went on?
A Went forward, didn't turn as it usually did, towards the City Hall entrance, went straight.
Q Did you feel that the Mayor was trying to avoid you?
A Most definitely.
Q Did you ever make a statement to the effect that the Mayor "ditched us?"
A I did. . . .
Q When you made that telephone call then to Mr. Daniel White, did you tell him briefly, basically, what you-what your feelings were?
A Yes, I did.
Q What did you say to him?
A Well, from what I can recall, and I don't remember my exact words, but I told him that the Mayor circumvented the people, went right straight.
That was the first time I had ever seen that happen. I had seen the Mayor enter City Hall where there were supporters in front of the building before, and he went-usually greeted the sup­porters, and walked in. I had seen that before. This time he didn't, and it angered me, and I told Mr. White that.
Q Did Mr. White say anything?
A Yes, he did, but he wasn't angry. He calmed me down.
Q What did you do after that conversation?
A I resumed my work. I opened the mail and I-I was aware that supporters had moved into the room, 200, the public area of the Mayor's office, and I knew they were there, and I knew they were trying to get to hand those petitions to the Mayor, and I was at my desk at the time when one of the constituents in the room came running down into my office, [and] said, "The secretary is saying he isn't in, and he is in. He has to be in.”And I said, "What is the secretary saying?" This woman said, "The secretary is saying he hasn't been in the building yet,” or, "He is not here,” words to that effect, and so I didn't know what to do, but I-they were very tense, agitated, and so I walked with them towards Room 200.
I don't know why I did that, but I thought I would walk with her, and I walked towards Room 200, and at that point I waited outside of the Mayor's office, and some of the people that were in, came out and were saying, "What do we do? You know, we have these petitions, and we should leave it with the secretary. Do you think it's okay?" I was trying to think as to what was best to do, when I noticed the side door to the Mayor's office open and I saw Harvey Milk exit the Mayor's private hallway there, in front. .

Q What did you do then, after you saw Harvey Milk come out of the side door of the Mayor's office?
A I just noticed it. I didn't do anything. I kept talking to the people, and I-as I was talking, I saw him coming out. I saw him laughing, and I saw him being patted on the shoulder by someone in the door jamb area. I couldn't tell who it was, and I just told the people to go back inside, say you are going to wait here until someone comes, takes these petitions, and assures you the Mayor is going to see them before he makes his appointment, and they did, they went back in.
Q Did you believe at that time, Miss Apcar, that the Mayor was going to appoint someone other than Mr. Daniel White?
A Oh, yes. It was 10:00 o'clock in the morning, you know.
Q Were you aware that there was to be a scheduled press conference­-
A Yes.
Q (Continuing):-concerning the public announcement in that regard, at 11:30?
A Yes, I did.
Q At that time, were your feelings such that you were angry?
A Definitely.
Q Did you call Mr. White on the telephone?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you tell Mr. White what you had seen?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you tell Mr. White that you had seen Harvey Milk come out of .the side door of the Mayor's office after you had been informed the Mayor was not in?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you indicate or tell Mr. White how you regarded this particular set of circumstances at this time?
A I don't think I expressed an opinion other than just general anger in the tone of my voice, as I was explaining what had happened.
Q Did you...feel that you had been doublecrossed?
A Personally, I didn't feel I had been doublecrossed, no.
Q Did you feel Mr. White had been doublecrossed?
A I couldn't exactly tell what had happened by seeing Mr. Milk in the hallway. I couldn't exactly-I didn't feel that.
Q Did you attribute anything to Mr. Milk's presence, as you observed it coming out of the Mayor's office, and you said he was smiling and laughing?
A The only thing I thought, when I saw Mr. Milk, come out of his office, the Mayor was, indeed, in his office, and that he was seeing other people.
Q You felt and believed that Mr. Milk had been acting to prevent the appointment of Daniel White to his vacated seat on the Board of Supervisors, as to District 8?
A Yes, I was very much aware of that.
Q Had you expressed that opinion to Mr. White?
A Yes.
Q Did Mr. White ever express that opinion also to you?
A He wasn't down at City Hall much during that week, and so I was basically the person that told him these things.

Q Now, you called him on the telephone?
A Correct.
Q You called him the first time. Now, the second time, that you talked to him, how did that come about? We are referring to November 27th, in the morning.
A Correct. The first time I called him was to inform him of the rally. The second time I called him, it was because the lawyers that had sought the temporary restraining order on Friday were unsure on Friday as to whether or not Mr. White should pretend to take his seat or attempt to take his seat on Monday, since he was claiming the resignation was invalid, and they weren't sure whether or not he should try to take his seat. I was to talk to the attorneys in the morning, and then inform Dan White what that decision was on their part.
Q What was the purpose of this restraining order, if you know?
A The purpose of the restraining order was to restrain the Mayor from making his appointment, because of this technicality, and the resignation.
Q The Superior Court of this City and County had not ruled upon that restraining order yet, had it?
A Well, I wasn't in the chambers. It was a closed door session on Friday, but I was told that he denied the temporary restraining order, but set a court date for a week from that Friday to hear the legal arguments.
Q On that second conversation, had between you and Mr. Daniel White on Monday morning, November 27th, did he ask you to come out and pick him up? . . .
A After I finished talking to him the second time he called me back.
Q What did he say?
A "Denise, come pick me up, I want to see the Mayor."
Q Do you know what time this was?
A Well, probably 10 after 10:00, or 10:15.
Q You went out to pick him up?
A I didn't immediately. I had to take some calls, but I did go out and pick him up, yes.
Q How did you announce your presence?
A I honked my horn. . . .
Q When he came out of the garage, do you recall whether he was dressed neatly or not?
A He was dressed very well, very neatly. . . .
Q When he got into your car, did he do anything that appeared unusual to you? . . .
A Well, the very first thing I noticed that was unusual was that he didn't look at me, and normally he would turn his body a little bit towards the driver, and look at me, and we would talk, you know, in a free-form way, but this time he didn't look at me at all. That was one. He was squinting hard and he was very nervous. He was agitated. He was blowing a lot. He was rubbing his hands, and he was just very strange.
Q In what manner was he doing this blowing?
A Well, he was just blowing into his hands and rubbing them, like he was cold, like his hands were cold. . . .
Q Did he do it just about during the entire ride downtown?
A Yes, yes, pretty much.
Q Did you ever describe him as acting very hurt?
A Yes, he acted very hurt, yes. He was-looked like he was going to cry. He was doing everything he could to restrain his emotion.
Q Did you ever describe him as acting "all fired up? ". . .
A ''All fired up,” meant to me that he was really excited, ner­vous, more so than normal.
Q Did you ever say he was going to, "really lay it on the Mayor?"
A It's been brought to my attention I said that, yes.
Q Did he ever say to you in connection with the Mayor, "I want to see his face?"
A Yes, he did.
Q Did you ever say that he wanted the Mayor to tell him face to face that he wasn't going to appoint him?
A He said that in the context of a lot of things. He said, "I just want him to tell me-I want him to look at me, say, Dan, you are not going to get the job. I want him to tell me." He didn't want to hear about it through the press. He wanted the personal contact.
Q Did you ever describe him as blowing on his hands, rubbing them, and looking like he was all fired up to really lay it on the Mayor because he was going to go in there and tell him how he feels-wants to tell him, Mr. White, how he is not going to be appointed, face to face?
A I believe that is probably what I said.
Q Now, did you ever say, referring to Mr. White, that Mr. White really wanted some action?
A Well, I probably said that. I was very nervous.
Q Of course, when you made those statements, that was, Miss Apcar, that was on November 27th, at about 40 minutes after noon time; isn't it?
A Yes, that's true. . . .
Q When you were driving Mr. White downtown to the City Hall, was there some discussion between you and Mr. White relative to a statement made by yourself, that goes like, "Anger had run pretty high all week towards the Mayor playing pool on us, dirty, you know?". . .
A Yes, I did.
Q What kind of anger was it that had run pretty high all week?
A I believe I was describing my anger. I was-I was flabbergasted at the actions that had taken place, and at the time I made those statements, I was in shock, and I spoke freely, and I'm sure I have never used those terms before.

Q Miss Apcar, in regards to this lawsuit, who first suggested the filing of that lawsuit, do you recall?
A I had a discussion with Mr. Peter Bagatelos of the law firm of Dobbs and Nelson when the City Attorney's opinion came out, I believe, and he suggested it.
Q All right. Did you take that suggestion to Dan White?
A Yes, I did.
Q What was his reaction to the filing of a lawsuit?
A He didn't want to go through with it at all.
Q Was there any particular reason?
A He felt strongly that he was going to get the job back; that the Mayor had told him, "I'm going to give you your job back."