Testimony of Michelle Rauch in the Timothy McVeigh Trial
June 10, 1997
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THE COURT: Next witness, please.
MR. NIGH: Michelle Rauch.
THE COURT: Thank you.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Michelle Rauch affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Michelle Ann Rauch, R-A-U-C-H.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Nigh.
MR. NIGH: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Good afternoon, Miss Rauch. Please tell us what you
currently do for a living.
A. I'm a anchor and reporter for a television station.
Q. Is that television station in Fort Smith, Arkansas?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you been a reporter in Fort Smith?
A. Eight months.
Q. Is that a television station there?
A. Yes.
Q. If I could, I'd like to direct your attention back to the
spring of 1993. Are you familiar with that time period?
A. Yes.
Q. And during that point in your life, you were a student at
Southern Methodist University; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. You were studying journalism?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you a senior at that time in 1993?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. You had grown up in Dallas; is that right?
A. That is correct.
Q. And attended college there at SMU?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. During the spring of 1993, when you were a journalism
student at SMU, did you have occasion to travel to Waco, Texas?
A. Yes, I did, during my spring break.
Q. What caused you to travel to Waco?
A. I was writing for the school paper and had kind of been
following the Waco standoff, and I knew there was another angle
to the story, and I wanted to find what that angle was. Since
it was a school paper, you couldn't take off during school,
'cause we had classes to attend, of course. So I took it upon
myself during my spring break to travel to Waco to find what
other angle to the, quote, "Davidian standoff" there might be.
Q. Did you go by yourself, or did you go with someone else?
A. I went with another girl who went to school there. She was
not a journalism student.
Q. Was your purpose in going to write a story?
A. Yes, for the school newspaper.
Q. Did you also have an interest in photography at the time?
A. Yes, as a hobby I do photography.
Q. When you arrived in the area of Mt. Carmel, what did you
see?
A. As we were driving in a road, I don't recall what it is --
right near the checkpoint to get into the compound, on the left
side there was a hill. And a couple large signs caught my
attention, David Koresh, The Great National Diversion, What is
the Mark of the Beast, I believe. And I said, Stop the car,
this is where my story is, up on this hilltop.
Q. Was that near Mt. Carmel?
A. It was -- I don't recall the exact distance, maybe a half
mile from the checkpoint to get into the media compound.
Q. When you say "the checkpoint," what checkpoint are you
referring to?
A. ATF checkpoint, and that's where all the media that had set
up there had to stop and show identification in order to travel
on.
Q. Could ordinary citizens go on in --
A. No.
Q. -- past that checkpoint?
A. No.
Q. Did you meet Tim McVeigh up on that hill when you said --
A. Yes, I did.
Q. -- you knew that that's where the story was?
A. That was my gut instinct, yes.
Q. Let me show you what's been marked for identification as
Defendant's Exhibit PP61.
Do you recognize that photograph?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that a photograph that you took in March of 1993 near
Mt. Carmel?
A. I took this photograph, yes.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I'd move for the admission of
PP61.
MR. GOELMAN: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Please tell us, Ms. Rauch, what it is that's depicted
there.
A. This is how I found Mr. McVeigh, when I walked up on the
hill. He was sitting on the hood of his car with some bumper
stickers that were for sale.
Q. Did you speak to Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. At that point in time?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you examine the bumper stickers that he had there?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Let me show you, if I may, what's been marked for
identification as Defendant's Exhibit PP7. It should be on the
screen in front of you.
Do you recognize what's depicted there?
A. Yes, this is another photograph that I took of the bumper
stickers on the hood of the car.
Q. Did you take them on the same day --
A. Yes.
Q. -- that you saw Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I'd move for the admission of
PP7.
MR. GOELMAN: No objection.
THE COURT: Received. May be published.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. And if you will, tell us what those bumper stickers say.
A. One of them I recall -- I can't see them clearly in this
picture -- but Fear the Government that Fears Your Gun,
Politicians Love Gun Control. And then the other one I can't
see quite clearly here, but Ban Guns. I can't quite make
out --
Q. Can I help you? Does it say, Make the Streets Safe for a
Government Takeover?
A. That sounds familiar, yes.
Q. Let me show you, if I may, what's been marked for
identification as Defendant's Exhibit PP8, which should
depict -- and let me ask you, does that depict a bumper sticker
on the far left?
A. Yes.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I'd move for the admission of
PP8.
MR. GOELMAN: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. Received. May be published.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. And does the one on the far left say, A Man With a Gun is a
Citizen, A Man Without a Gun is a Subject?
A. Yes.
Q. And are those the types of bumper stickers that Mr. McVeigh
had there on his car for sale?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Let me show you, if I may, what's been marked for
identification as Defendant's Exhibit PP5.
Do you recognize what's depicted there?
A. Yes, that is me taking my notes during the interview of
Mr. McVeigh.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I'd move for the admission of
PP5.
MR. GOELMAN: No objection.
THE COURT: Received. May be shown.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Now, the young lady there on the right is you; is that
correct?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. So this is not a photograph that you yourself took?
A. No, it is not. It is one that I asked my friend at the
time to take while I was interviewing. I turned around and
said, Get a picture of me interviewing this person.
Q. And that's what happened?
A. Yes.
Q. And so it shows you there visiting with Mr. McVeigh --
A. Yes.
Q. -- while he was seated on the hood of his car?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Did you also while you were there get an opportunity to
look at Mt. Carmel?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you take a photograph of Mt. Carmel and where the
Branch Davidians were?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Let me show you, if I may, what's been marked for
identification as Defendant's Exhibit PP6 (sic).
Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that a photograph that you took of Mt. Carmel?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I'd move to the admission of
PP66. '66, I'm sorry. It's PP66.
MR. GOELMAN: Objection, there's no evidence that the
defendant saw what's depicted in this picture.
THE COURT: Overruled; received.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Would you tell us what you -- what is depicted in that
photograph you took that day.
A. That is Mt. Carmel where David Koresh and the rest of the
people out at Mt. Carmel lived, and that's where they were all
holed up.
Q. How far was that -- were you from Mr. McVeigh's location
when you took that photograph?
A. Oh, a few miles. I mean it certainly was not visible from
the hilltop.
Q. Where you were standing when you took the photograph, how
far was that?
A. A few miles. You could barely see it with the naked eye.
Q. All right. Let me show you -- first of all, let me ask
you: You said that there was an ATF checkpoint?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. How far was that from where Mr. McVeigh was?
A. Half a mile, perhaps.
Q. If you were standing on the road there, could you see it?
A. Maybe faintly. I don't recall for sure. It was just a
short ways down the road by car.
Q. All right. Let me show you what's been marked for
identification as Defendant's Exhibit PP62.
Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do. This is another photograph I took.
Q. Is that a photograph that you took on the same day that you
visited with Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I'd move for the admission of
PP62.
MR. GOELMAN: Same objection.
THE COURT: Received. Display it.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Please tell us what we see there in that photograph.
A. This is the ATF checkpoint where all the media had to stop
and show identification before they could travel in.
Q. And does this photograph depict three separate ATF agents?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And what are they wearing?
A. Camouflage pants. Some of them had matching tops on, and
then they all had black T-shirts identifying themselves as ATF
agents.
Q. Let me show you what I've marked as Defendant's Exhibit
PP63. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that a photograph of the same scene from a slightly
different viewpoint?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. NIGH: I'd move for the admission of PP63.
MR. GOELMAN: Same objection.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. And please tell us what we see there, Ms. Rauch.
A. Basically the same scene, the checkpoint where all media or
officers had to stop at to get -- show identification.
Q. Do you know if those ATF agents were armed?
A. I believe they were.
Q. Let me show you, if I might, what's been marked for
identification as Defendant's Exhibit PP64.
Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, this is another photograph I took.
Q. Is that near the checkpoint?
A. Yes, it is. This is the checkpoint.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I'd move for the admission of
PP64.
MR. GOELMAN: May I have a continuing objection to --
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
Received, and may be shown.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Please tell us what you saw there that's depicted in the
photograph, Miss Rauch.
A. This appeared to be some sort of government truck. I don't
know who was in it, perhaps ATF officers, going through the
checkpoint.
Q. Was it a military truck?
A. Yes.
Q. And was that at the checkpoint where the ATF was
stopping --
A. Same checkpoint, uh-huh.
Q. Let me show you, if I may, what's been marked for
identification as Defendant's Exhibit PP65.
Do you recognize what's depicted there?
A. Yes, another photograph I took at -- this is a car actually
being stopped at the checkpoint.
MR. NIGH: I'd move for admission of PP65.
THE COURT: Continuing objection is overruled.
Received.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Please tell us what is displayed in this photograph, Miss
Rauch.
A. This is just a car that has stopped at the checkpoint, and
this is what I saw them doing with every vehicle that stopped
there. They would go up to the car and ask for identification.
Q. And there are two ATF agents standing on the passenger side
of that car?
A. Yes.
Q. And one of them appears to be wearing full camouflage; is
that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, Ms. Rauch, when you were up on top of that hill, you
had a conversation with Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you talk about with Mr. McVeigh?
A. I told him who I was and I was doing a story for my school
paper and asked him why he was there.
Q. Did he tell you why he was there?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said he just come in response to the standoff and that
he -- he went on to say that he was opposed to how they handled
the initial raid, that he thought it would be more appropriate
had just the local sheriff gone down and issued an arrest
warrant.
Q. What was his demeanor or how did he behave when he was
talking to you?
A. Just as was depicted in that picture. He was just sitting
on the hood of his car. He was willing to talk to me.
Q. Was he calm or agitated, or how would you describe him?
A. He appeared calm.
Q. Did you enjoy speaking with him, or did you find it useful
to the story you were writing?
A. I found it very useful. He had a lot of views that he
shared with me, which is -- as a writer and a journalist, I
enjoyed speaking with him to write about his views in my
article.
Q. You said that you intended to write an article. Did you
eventually go ahead and write an article?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Let me show you what should be in front of you marked as
PP60. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes. This is a photocopy of the newspaper article that was
published.
Q. And was that published in the SMU newspaper on Tuesday,
March 30 of 1993?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And did it relate what Mr. McVeigh had said to you during
your interview with him?
A. Yes, it did.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I'd move for the admission of
PP60.
MR. GOELMAN: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Ms. Rauch, I've put in front of us the article -- it also
depicts the same photograph of Mr. McVeigh sitting on the hood
of his car; is that right?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And in the article, did you reference a number of direct
quotes from Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And could you locate those for us and tell us what he said
to you.
A. Would you like me to just go in order?
Q. Sure, the order that they appear in the article.
A. Okay. The first quote: I think if the sheriff served the
warrant, it would all be okay.
Q. All right.
A. Second quote: They're not tactical at all. They're
government employees. This was in reference to the ATF.
Next one: It seems like the ATF just wants a chance
to play with their toys, paid for by government money.
The next direct quote: The government is afraid of
the guns people have because they have to have control of the
people at all times. Once you take away the guns, you can do
anything to the people.
You give them an inch and they take a mile.
I believe we are slowly turning into a socialist
government.
He said, The government is continually growing bigger
and more powerful, and the people need to prepare to defend
themselves against government control.
That's it.
Q. Did you also summarize some of the things that Mr. McVeigh
told you --
A. Yes.
Q. -- but put them in a summary fashion?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you say about that?
A. McVeigh said a sheriff should have served the warrant to
Koresh without involving the ATF. Although McVeigh said he is
sorry for those killed and injured, he said the ATF had no
business being there in the first place.
McVeigh said those in the ATF were merely pawns
working under the control of government orders.
The government thinks it has to spend taxpayer dollars
on something, McVeigh said, adding that they saw this as an
opportunity and seized it.
McVeigh said he believes the government is greatly at
fault in Waco and has broken constitutional laws. He quoted
the U.S. Constitution and said U.S. armed forces should not be
used against civilians, yet they were used against Koresh and
his followers.
McVeigh said he does not believe the Brady Bill is a
solution or an adequate attempt at a compromise.
McVeigh said the Koresh standoff is only the beginning
and that people should watch the government's role and heed any
warning signs.
Q. When he made these statements about the ATF and the action
against Koresh, did he make reference to the checkpoint or the
ATF agents that were stationed down there?
A. At the checkpoint, no.
Q. But he made reference to the ATF?
A. Yes.
Q. When he talked to you about these things, what was his
mannerism at the time?
A. As I said, he appeared calm, very articulate, and he
appeared well-versed on what his beliefs were.
MR. NIGH: I believe that's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Goelman, do you have some questions?
MR. GOELMAN: No questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Is the witness to be excused?
MR. NIGH: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down and leave.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.

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