Testimony of a 12-Year-Old Girl, Witness for the Prosecution
in theMcMartin Preschool Trial
(August 3-6, 1987)

[In place of the name of the girl, "-----" has been inserted.]

August 3, 1987

Direct Examination by Lael Rubin:

"How old are you today?"
"Twelve. "
"Do you live in Manhattan Beach?"
"What school do you go to?"
"American Martyrs."
"Did you go to the McMartin Preschool?"
"You said Ray was at the school. Can you tell us what Ray did?"
"Kind of a helper."
"What was his relationship to Peggy?"
"Ray is Peggy's son."
"Can you look around and see Ray?" (The girl identifies Ray Buckey)
"I'd like to talk to you about McMartin. Did you stay all day or half a day?"
"Sometime half a day. Sometimes I'd stay for lunch and a nap."
"Did you tell your parents you didn't like to stay for a nap?"
"When you were at the McMartin Preschool how many rooms did you see?"
"There is a little yard. Can you tell us what was in the little yard?"
"Tricycles and things like that...."
"Did you play, and you had to take your clothes off?"
"What was the name of the game?"
"The 'Naked Movie Star.' "
"Did someone tell you to take your clothes off?"
"In what room was Ray in?"
"Room A." (pointing to a diagram)
"Did somebody say something to you?"
" 'We're gonna play naked movie star.' "
"Who was the person who said that?"
"I'm not sure. Ray or Peggy."
"And when Ray or Peggy said, 'Time to play naked movie star,' was that in a classroom full of children?"
"I'm not sure."
"When Ray said, 'We're gonna play the "naked movie star game," what did you do?"
"Just stand or do something...."
"Did you hear anybody taking pictures?"
"Yes. I heard clicking."
"Did you ever see a person taking pictures?"
"No. I could see the lens sometimes."
"Where was the click coming from?"
"The accordion divider."
"When you played 'naked movie star' did Ray or Peggy have their clothes off?"
"Sometimes. "
"When you finished modeling or posing, did you put your clothes back on?"
"What did you do then?"
"Went back outside and played with the kids."
"During the 'naked movie star' did you ever see another adult in the room?"
"Miss Peggy. . . Virginia. . ."
"In the doorway of Room A."
"How many times did you play 'naked movie star' at the school?"
"I don't remember."
"When you played 'naked movie star' was there any music?"
"I don't remember."
"Was anything covering the windows?"
"Curtains at each end of the window."
"At any time you played 'naked movie star' did anyone have an animal they showed to you?"
"Yes....He cut [a cat] on the side and told us if we told anybody he would do the same to our parents. "
"Was the cat dead when he brought it in?"
 "When you were at the house where you played 'naked movie star' did you get undressed?"
 "Do you remember when you were going to the McMartin school, waking up in the middle of the night shaking or having nightmares?"
"Yes. "
"Do you remember going to CII [Children's Institute]?"
"On March 14 you went to CII and talked to a woman named Shawn.Did she ask you what happened at McMartin?"
"I told her I didn't know anything."
"During and right after the 'naked movie star' did anybody touch you?" 
"Ray and Peggy."
"Tell us what Ray did-how he touched you. You said Ray and Peggy touched you. Describe to us what Ray did to you. Did Ray touch you in some part of your body? Tell us as best you can. . . ."
"He touched my vagina."
"Did Ray put anything inside your vagina?"
"One time or more than one time?"
"I don't remember."
"Did Peggy touch you in some part of your body?"
"Yes. "
"Outside or inside?"
"Outside. "
"One or more times?"
"I don't remember,"
"You remember one time-right?"
"You're not sure?"
"When Ray touched you with his finger in your vagina were his clothes on or off?"
"When Peggy touched your vagina with her finger were her clothes on or off?"
"Off. "
"Can you tell us when was the first time you told anybody that Ray and Peggy touched you?"
"July 3 of this year."
"Before you told your mom in July did you tell anyone else?" 
"Sometime before July 3, I tried to tell somebody,"
"Why didn't you tell me?"
"I was embarrassed. I started to cry."
"Any reason you just told your mom about Ray and Peggy touching your vagina?"
"I couldn't even admit it to myself."
"No further questions, your honor."

Cross-Examination by Dean Gits

"------, I'd like to ask you some questions. If they seem too hard, stop me. ------, when you went to McMartin you went for about three years. Is that correct?"
"And what grade are you in?"
"Sixth grade...."
 "As you think about it now, can you remember how long you were in class?"
"About forty-five minutes."
"What happened when your mom and dad picked you up?"
"They just came to the gate."
"Where would you be?"
"Outside in the yard."
"------, if you would have a look at that, do you remember whether that picture was taken during your second year at the school?" (showing a picture)
"Yes. "
"You said Miss Lo taught in Room B, right?"
"When the 'naked movie star' was played was Miss Peggy your teacher?" 
"Yes. "
"When you started at the preschool Miss Lo was your teacher, right?" 
"Yes. "
"And in the third year was Miss Peggy your teacher?"
"You talk about going to see Shawn at CII. . . . Do you think your memory is better today than when you went to CII?"
"I don't know."
"Do you think your memory was better with Shawn at CII than at the preliminary hearing?"
"Well, it wasn't a better memory."
"Do you think your memory is better today?"
"Yes. "
"Because I've thought about it."
"Going back to McMartin, were you afraid?"
"Sometimes. "
"You talked about the 'naked movie star' game. Did that happen in the morning?"
"I'm not sure."
"Before noon?"
"So it was not at naptime?"
"You told us you were not sure how many times you played the 'naked movie star' game. What would be your best ballpark figure?"
"I don't want to say because I'm not sure."
"Can you tell us when it was you were afraid to go to school?"
"A couple of months after something happened at the school."
"You talk about times you stayed during naptime. Did anything bad happen during naptime?"
"Yes. . . that's when I went to the house."
"Did you ever go to the house in the morning?"
"I don't remember."
"-----, when you talked about the time you were taken to the house during naptime, did that happen more than one time?"
"Do you remember how many grownups were there?"
"Did you take your clothes off and put them in a pile?"
"Yes. "
"Did Peggy have her clothes off?"
"Was she touching anybody?"
"Did Ray take his clothes off?"
"Did he touch anybody?"
"I don't know. He didn't touch me."
"You said Ray brought in a cat and it was dead."
"Was that the first time you played 'naked movie star'?"
"Do you remember you played the second time at school?"
"So you eventually forgot what happened at the preschool?"
"Until I went and saw Shawn. I put it back in my mind."
"You had friends at American Martyrs who went to CII?"
"And they told you about yucky secrets. . . ."
"You told your parents you didn't remember anything bad happened at the preschool and one time they offered to take you to CII and you said there was no need to because nothing happened."
"Maybe. I don't remember."
"Did you tell anybody in the world about this before CII?
"I don't know."
"Some of your best friends and classmates had been at CII?"
"Yes. "
"Did your parents tell you something bad happened at the school?" 
"Yes. "
"Did you believe something bad happened at McMartin? You got a sense of that from your parents and CII?"
"You had a sense that something bad happened at McMartin but you couldn't remember until Shawn told you about the 'naked movie star'?" 
"Yes. "
"Were you told that this was being videotaped?"
"After we were done my parents came in. We looked at the tape, and they talked while I was out of the room."
 "Do you remember Shawn telling your parents you were molested at the preschool?"
"I'm not sure what she said because I wasn't there."
"You were shown portions of the videotape? Did you see bits and pieces?" 
"Did Kee tell you that Ray had threatened children?"
"I don't remember."
"Do you remember testifying at the preliminary hearing that Kee told you that Ray had touched children?"
"I don't remember."
"Do you remember testifying at the preliminary hearing that Kee told you Ray forced children to play the 'naked movie star' game?"
"I don't remember."
"And you told Cheryl Kent, right?"
"Yes. "
"Do you remember Deputy District Attorney Christine Johnson?" 
"How many times did you talk to Christine Johnson about the case?"
"I don't know. A lot."
"After the preliminary hearing you talked to Lael Rubin six or seven times about the case?"
"Yes. . . . Her and Roger came to see me."
"Six or seven times?"
"Yes. "
"Was Gusty Bell with her each time?"
"All the times you were talking about the case, were they taking notes?" 
"Did the talks get longer and longer?"
"They were usually close to an hour and then they got longer."
"Did Lael Rubin give you transcripts of the preliminary hearing?"
"Yes. "
"Do you remember telling at the preliminary hearing that somebody gave the kids a pink medicine?"
"Today you're not sure you were given any medicine by the teachers at the school?"
"I didn't want to tell something 1 was not sure."
"Do you think your memory about the 'naked movie star' game was better at the preliminary hearing than today?"
"No. My memory is about the same on that issue."
"Are you aware of a song, 'The Naked Movie Star'?"
"Did you ever hear that at the preschool, -----?"
"I'm not sure."
"Do you remember testifying at the preliminary hearing that you don't remember in what room you played the 'naked movie star'?"
"I don't know."
"Do you remember testifying that the 'naked movie star' game was played iin Miss Lo's class?"
"I don't remember."
"Why is it today you say you weren't in Miss Lo's class?"
"I thought a lot about what happened."
"Do you remember telling us at the preliminary hearing that the cat was not cut until about four months after you played the 'naked movie star' game?"
"I don't remember."
"Did Lael Rubin or Gusty say it's rather strange that the cat was cut four months later?"
"I don't know."
 "------, if you can, tell us why you're sure now that the cat was cut the first time you played the 'naked movie star' game. Do you feel the cat was cut the first time you played the 'naked movie star' game?"
"I'm positive."
"Was your testimony wrong in the preliminary hearing?"
"I thought about it."
"Did you ever see anyone of the teachers give you shots at the school?..."

August 4

"------, did you talk yesterday about nightmares at the time you were going to the preschool?"
"Do you recall what they were about?"
"Dragons. Alligators. I was afraid to get up and go to the bathroom so I wet my bed."
"Did you have any redness or soreness in the vaginal area?"
"I don't remember."
"Did the district attorney ever show you a transcript of the videotape at CII?"
"Did they read portions of it to you?"
"Yes. . . last week."
"Did Lael and Gusty do that?"
"Did Lael come to visit you Saturday?"
"How long?"
"Two hours. Sometimes longer."
"What do you think was the longest?"
"Four hours."
"Did she go over what you're going to testify in this case?"
"She went over her outline."
"You told us the 'naked movie star' game was played before lunch, right?"
"When it was all over was the recess still going on?"
"I think you told us that the 'naked movie star' was played during recess."
"Was Peggy in the classroom when Ray came in and announced the naked movie star' game?"
"I'm pretty sure she was inside."
"Was anyone else there?"
"I don't remember."
"Is there anyone child you can recall now that was present when you played the 'naked movie star'?"
"Going back to your first year at the preschool, was Ray there in Miss Lo's class?" Gits asked.
"I don't remember."
"Do you remember testifying in the preliminary hearing that Ray was iin Miss Lo's class?"
"I don't remember."
"After your testimony in the preliminary hearing did anybody tell you maybe Ray wasn't there at the school when you were in Miss Lo's class?"
"I don't remember."
"Did anybody tell you that Ray was not at the school when you were iin Mary Ann's class?"
"I don't remember."
"Was there any music during the 'naked movie star' [game]?"
"I don't remember."
"You said when you went to the house you were walking around in a circle holding hands?"
"I'm not sure."
"Would you stop and pose or keep walking?"
"I'm not sure."
"After the curtains were put up, was it dark?"
"Yes. "
"Did you see a flash from a camera?"
"I don't remember."
"Did children cry during the 'naked movie star' [game]?"
"No. "
"When you were touched by Ray did you cry?"
"I don't remember."
"Was the recess still going on?"
"Did any of the other kids come in?"
"I don't remember."
"When Ray came in with the dead cat did he have the cat in a bag or a box?" 
"It was like a mashed paper bag with a cat on top."
"Did he cut it first or did he say something first?"
"I don't remember."
"Did blood go all over?"
"Just on the paper."
"Do you remember telling us at the preliminary hearing that blood got all over?"
"Yes. "
"Do you think your memory is better now than at the preliminary?" 
"Was there a lot of blood that came out of the cat?"
"And did Ray say this will happen to your parents if you tell?"
"Yes. "
"Up until Ray cut the cat were you horrified?"
"Not really."
"So it was Ray cutting the cat that really made you afraid?"
"Did you get sick and throw up?"
"I don't remember...."
"Going back to the school,------, do you remember Miss Betty?"
"Was she your teacher during your last year there?"
"Was she there at naptime?"
"I don't remember."
"You told us after the morning session a lot of moms came and picked up children and other children stayed during naptime."
"Were the teachers in A and B rooms watching the kids?"
"Did they tell you they were taking you to a house?"
"Did they say, 'Come with us'?"
"Ray or Peggy...."
"When Kee talked to you at CII did Kee tell you Ray touched children in their private parts?"
 "I don't remember."
 "Do you recall being taken to the house where the 'naked movie star' game was played, in the morning?"
"Then Ray said, 'Come with me'?"
"No, it was at recess. "
"Do you know who was watching Peggy's kids while Peggy was at the house playing 'naked movie star'?"
"It wasn't recess and the other teachers were watching them."

Cross-examination by Daniel Davis

"------, it's been a little over two years. . . . Has anything come to mind...iif you think of anything you didn't say, please tell us now so we can get to the final truth about this. Do you think there's anything you haven't told us?"
 "Not right now."
 "Back in the preliminary [hearing] you said, 'I think' and 'kind of.' Does that mean you're not sure?"
"Did you learn that Bob Currie told your father that children were molested at McMartin?"
"No. "
"When you went to cn did you have a feeling that something might have happened to you?"
"Yes. Sort of."
"But you said, 'Dad, it didn't happen to me'?"
"I don't know."
"By the time you talked to Kee you had a strong feeling Ray had been molesting children?"
"When you went to the preschool you had a good time, right?"
"From what you saw at American Martyrs, did everybody say there was an investigation going on at the preschool?"
"That was the hot topic? That was the thing you heard people talking about?"
"Did you ever see Ray Buckey's picture on TV?"
"Yes. , , it seemed like every day, and what was going on...."

August 5, 1987

"You told Shawn about a lot of naked games, and now at the trial only one naked game. Did you believe, when you told Shawn, that there were other naked games?"
"I don't remember."
"The house you talked about in the interview with Shawn, was it a brown house?"
"Yes. "
"But you didn't say brown. Do you recall saying brown?"
"Not really,"
"I want to get to the people you had discussions with before the preliminary hearing. Christine Johnson. You had three meetings with her before the prelliminary hearing and you talked about statements on the videotape."
"Something or other. "
"Didn't you do questions and answers you would be testifying in the preliminary hearing?"
 "And you were preparing for your testimony so you would know what to say. Didn't you prepare so you would know what to say in court?"
"I don't know. It was more like I knew what was going on."
"Did you do the same with Lael Rubin?"
"She asked me things I wasn't too sure about. She said names and I didn't even know who the person was."
"Did you go over questions and answers for the trial?"
"Shawn told you all the other kids were molested?"
"Did you know Lael Rubin during the preliminary?"
"I'm not sure."
 "Did you come to know her better when you came to the meeting with her to prepare for the trial?"
 "Yes. . . I met Roger, too."
 "You read the notebook. Did you ever discuss the notebook with your parents?"
"We read transcripts from the preliminary hearing."
"You opened your notebook and Lael opened hers?"
"Well, she would just, like, if there was a hard answer, how to answer. . . .She would say, 'Answer like that' and it would be okay?" 
"I have some pictures here. Take a little time. . . . Do you still have the feeling that a child could fit in the cupboard?"
"Do you remember anything bad that happened in the bathrooms at the school?
"I don't remember."
"Did you ever tell one person that the house you were taken to was one of the teachers' houses?"
"I don't remember."
"Do you remember anything about the house?"
"There were wooden animals. The mailbox is like an animal."
"You've been to Peggy's house many times. You know there are wooden animals there. "
"I was talking to Lael. She brought pictures and showed it to me."
"So today you don't know whether the house was Peggy's house?"
"No. Kee said it was Peggy's house."
"Do you remember you said it was a white house when you talked to the police department?"
"No. I don't remember. . . ."
"Do you remember anything that happened at the white house?"
"No. "
"Do you know the name of any other child that was with you when the cat was killed?"
"No. I don't remember."
"Do you know the name of one single child who was present when you were touched?"
"Do you remember one child who was present when you played the 'naked movie star' game?"
"When you say you were taken to Peggy's house, is that a guess?"
 "No. Kee said. "
"At the preliminary hearing you said the cat was cut six months after the 'naked movie star' [game] was played the first time. Today you said it was cut the same day. . . . Is this something you were telling Lael Rubin . . . did she tell you that it didn't make sense for you to say six months and not be frightened about it? And not to tell your parents? Can you tell me anything that would contribute to the change that you haven't thought about?"
"No. "
"You described touching and changed your testimony. Is that correct?"
 "What caused you to change?" 
"I'm not sure what happened."
"You testified of a grownup that drugged little boys and giris. That's a very serious thing."
"And you were saying that?"
"It was the truth to me at the time."
"When the truth came to you what happened?"
"I just saw Pepto-Bismol in the refrigerator."
"In the preliminary hearing testimony you told Dr. Heger cats, turtles, and rabbits were cut up."
"Not that I remember."
"Did you ever see anything like that?"
"Not turtles and rabbits...."

August 6, 1987 

"Did Shawn tell you that 110 children had already been interviewed at  CII . . . and every one ofthem had something happen to them at the preschool? Did she tell you that?"
 "Yes. I don't think she would lie to me."
 "When the police were following Ray around did that make you think Ray Buckey did bad things?"
 "I don't know."
 "When you talked to Shawn [at CII] you said you were touched on the vagina by teachers at the school."
"Did it hurt?"
"Not specifically."
"Is it true today that it did hurt?"
"Are both of these statements true?"
"I don't know. What is the question?"
"Two answers being true. Did you bleed?"
"Do you feel your memory was better when you talked to Shawn and at the preliminary?"
 "I don't know."
"Did teachers actually touch private parts of children?"
"I don't know."
"Did you ever see Ray Buckey?"
"When did Ray touch you?"
"I don't remember."
"What part of his body did he touch you with?"
"His fingers."

Judge Pounders asked: "In what position was his body and your body? Standing, sitting, or lying down?"
 "I don't remember." 

Gits: "When you got the transcript from Lael did she tell you how to answer questions with the tabs? What were the tabs for?"
"They pointed out some things--liike a smart answer."
"Tabs to look at to understand smart answers at the preliminary hearing?"
"Rubin gave you some smart answers?"
"We went through the answers and looked at them."
"Was Lael going over the transcript, telling you how to answer?"
"Sort of...."

McMartin Preschool Abuse Trial