Testimony in the Impeachment Trial of Andrew Johnson

Lorenzo THOMAS sworn and examined.


Question.    General Thomas, will you state how long you have been in the service.

Answer.    I went to West Point in the year 1819.  I entered the Military Academy in September of that year, and was graduated July 1, 1823, and appointed second lieutenant of the fourth infantry.  I have been in the Army since that date

Question.    What is your present rank in the Army?

Answer.    I am an adjutant general of the Army, with the rank of brigadier general, and major general by brevet. . . . .

Question.    On what service were you during the war, generally?  Give us an idea of your service.

Answer.    During the administration of the War Department by General Cameron I was on duty as adjutant general in the office.  I accompanied him on his western trip to Missouri and Kentucky and returned with him.  Then, after that, after making that report, he left the Department, and Mr. Stanton was appointed.  I remained in the Department some time after Mr. Stanton was appointed, several months.  The first duty he place me on from the office---at any rate as one of the duties---he sent me down on the James river to make exchange of prisoners of war under the arrangement made by General Dix with the rebels. . . .

Question.    What was the next service?

Answer.    During the war, I was sent once or twice---three times, perhaps--- to Harrisburg to organize volunteers and to correct some irregularities there; not irregularities exactly, but in order to put regiments together, skeleton regiments.  I was sent there and ordered to bring them together ---once at Philadelphia and twice at Harrisburg also about the time that Lee was invading Maryland and Pennsylvania; but my principal duty was down on the Mississippi river.

Question.    What was the duty there?

Answer.    Threefold.  The first was to inspect the armies on the river in that part of the country.  The second was to look into cotton lands . . . .

Question.    What was the third duty?

Answer.    To take charge of the negro population and organize them as troops.

Question.    Were you the first officer who organized the negro regiments?

Answer.    No, sir.

Question.    Who was prior to you?

Answer.    I think that General Butler had organized some in New Orleans.  Some were organized before I took charge.  I was sent down on the Mississippi and in the rebellious States, and I had charge of all of them there.

Question.    What number of regiments were organized under your care?

Answer.    I organized upward of eighty thousand colored soldiers.  This particular number of regiments I do not recollect, because they were numbered some with those in New Orleans and some with those in the East. . . . .

Mr. STANBERY.  What happened in the War office on the morning of the 21st of February in regard to closing the office on the succeeding day, the 22nd?

Answer.    Toward twelve o'clock I went up myself and asked Mr. Stanton, then Secretary of War, if I should close the office the next day, the 22nd of February, and he directed me to do it.  I issued such a circular and sent it around to the different Departments.

Question.    Was that an order made by you as adjutant general?

Answer.    Yes, sir; by his order.

Question.    Was that before you  had seen the president that day?

Answer.     Yes, sir.

Question.     Now, hat took place after you had issued that order?

Answer.     Very soon after I had issued it I received a note from Colonel Moore, the Private Secretary of the President, that the President wished to see me.  I immediately went over to the White House, and saw the President.  He came out of his library with two communications in his hand.

Question.     He came out with two papers in his hand?

Answer.     Yes, sir.  He hander them to Colonel Moore to read.  They were read to me.

Question.     Read aloud?

Answer.     Read aloud.  One was addressed to Mr. Stanton, dismissing him from office, and directing him to turn over the books, papers & c., pertaining to the War Department.  The other was addressed to me, appointing me Secretary of War ad interim, and stating that Mr. Stanton had been directed to transfer the office to me.

Question.    Was that the first time you saw those papers, or either of them?

Answer.     The first time.

Question.     You had no hand whatever in writing those papers or dictating them?

Answer.     Nothing whatever. . . .

Question.     What, then, was said between you and the President?

Answer.     He said he was determined to support the Constitution and the laws, and he desired me to do the same. [Laughter.] . . . .

Question.     What further too place or was said?

Answer.     He then directed me to deliver this paper addressed to Mr. Stanton to him.

Question.     Was that all?  Did you then leave?

Answer.     I told him that I would take and officer in my department with me to see that I delivered it and note what occurred, and I stated that I would take General Williams.

Question.     Who is General Williams?

Answer.     One of the assistant adjutants general in my department on duty there.

Question.     You told the President you would take him along to witness the transaction?

Answer.     Yes, sir.

Question.     What did you do then?

Answer.     I went to over to the War Department, went into one of my rooms, and told General Williams I wished him to go with me;  I did not say for what purpose.  I told him I wanted him to go with me to the Secretary of War and note what occurred.

Question.     Without telling him what it was you intended?

Answer.     I did not tell him anything about it.  I then went to the Secretary's room and handed him the first paper.

Question.     When you say the first paper, which was that?

Answer.     The paper addressed to him.

Question.     What took place then?  Did he read it?

Answer.     He got up when I came in, and we bade good morning to each other, and I handed him that paper, and he put it down on the corner of his table and sat down.  Presently he got up and opened it and read it, and he then said, "Do you wish me to vacate the office at once, or will you give me time to remove my private property?"  I said, "Act your pleasure."

Question.     Did he say what time he would require?

Answer.     No, sir;  I did not ask him.  I then handed him the paper addressed to me, which he read, and he asked me to give him a copy.

Question.    What did you say?

Answer.     In the meantime General Grant came in, and I handed it to him.  General Grant asked me if that was for him.  I said no; merely for his information.  I promised a copy, and I went down.

Question.     Down where?  To your office?

Answer.     Into my own room. . . .

Question.     You went down and made a copy of the order?

Answer.     I had a copy made, which I certified as Secretary of War ad interim.  I took that up and handed it to him.  He then said, "I do not know whether I will obey your instructions or whether I will resist them."  Nothing more passed of any moment, and I left.

Question.     Was General Grant there at the second interview?

Answer.     No, sir.

Question.     The Secretary was alone then?

Answer.     He was alone.  His son may have been there, because he was generally in the room.

Question.     Did General Williams go up with you the second time?

Answer.     Did General Williams go up with you the second time?

Question.     No, sir.

Answer.     What time of the day was this?

Question. I think it was about twelve o'clock that I went up to see the Secretary, and this was just after I came down and wrote the order--- it was toward one o'clock, I suppose.

Answer.     It was immediately after you had written the order to close the office?

Question.     Yes, I got the note immediately after from Colonel Moore.

Answer.     Was that all that occurred between you and the Secretary on that day, the 21st?

Question.     I think it was. [After a pause.] No, no; I was confounding the 22d with the 21st.

Answer.     What further?

Question.     I went into the other room and he was there, and I said that I should issue orders as Secretary of War.  He said that I should not; he would countermand them, and he turned to General Schriver and also to General Townsend, who were in the room, and directed them not to obey any orders coming from me as Secretary of War . . . .

The CHIEF JUSTICE.    The Secretary will read the question once more.

The Secretary read as follows:

What occurred between the President and yourself at that second interview on the 21st.

The CHIEF JUSTICE.    The question is, is the question just read admissible?

Mr. DRAKE.    On that I ask for the yeas and nays.

    The yeas and nays were ordered; and being taken, resulted--- yeas 42, nays 10 . . . .

    So the Senate determined the question to be admissible.

The CHIEF JUSTICE.    The question will be read to the witness.

What occurred between the President and yourself at that second interview on the 21st.

The WITNESS.    I stated to the President that I had delivered the communication, and that Mr. Stanton gave this answer:  "Do you wish me to vacate at once or will you give me time to take away my private property?" and that I replied "act at your pleasure."  I then said that after delivering the copy of the letter to him, he said: "I do not know whether I will obey your instructions or resist them."  This I mentioned to the President, and his answer was:  "Very well; go and take charge of the office and perform the duties."


Question.  Was that all that passed?

Answer.     That is about all that passed a that time.

Question.    What time in the afternoon was that?

Answer.     That was immediately after giving the second letter to Mr. Stanton.

Mr. Manager BUTLER.    We withdraw all objection to that conversation. [Laughter.]

Mr. STANBERY.    Whether you do or not it is in.  The withdrawal is ex post facto. [To the witness.]  Was this before or after you got Stanton's order?

Answer.    It was after.

Question.     Did you see Stanton again that afternoon?

Answer.     I did not.

Question.     Or the President?

Answer.     What first happened to you the next morning?

Question.     The first thing that happened to me next morning was the appearance at my house of the marshal of the District, with an assistant marshal and a constable, and he arrested me.

Answer.     What time in the morning was that?

Question.     About eight o'clock, before I had my breakfast.  The command was to appear forthwith.  I asked if he would permit me to see the President;  I simply wanted to inform him that I had been arrested.  To that he kindly assented, though he said he must not lose sight of me for a moment.  I told him certainly I did not wish to be out of his sight.  He went with me to the President's and went into the room where the President was.  I stated that I had been arrested, at whose suit I did not know . . . .

    He said "Very well, that is the place I want it in---the courts."  He advised me then to go to you, and the marshal permitted me to go to your quarters at the hotel.  I told you that I had been arrested and asked what I should do--- . . . .

Mr. STANBERY.    Were you held to bail or anything of that kind?

Answer.      I was required to give bail in $5,000.

Question.     And then discharged from custody?

Answer.     I was then discharged.

Question.     After you were admitted to bail, did you go again to the War Department that day?

Answer.     I did.

Question.     When did you next go to the War Department that day.

Answer.     I went immediately from there, first stopping at the President's on my way, and stating to him that I had given bail.  He made the same answer, "Very well; we want it in the courts."  I then went over to the War Office and found the east door locked.  This was on the 22d the office was closed.  I asked the messenger for my key.  He told me that he had not got it; the keys had all been taken away, and my door was locked.  I then went up to Mr. Stanton's room, the one that he hr occupies as an office, where he receives.  I found him there with some six or eight gentlemen some of whom I recognized, and I understood afterward that they were all members of Congress.  I stated that I came in to demand the office.  He refused to give it to me and ordered me to my room as Adjutant General.  I refused to obey.  I made the demand a second and a third time.  He as often refused and as often ordered me to my room.  He then said "You may stand there; stand as long as you please."  I saw nothing further was to be done, and I left the room and went into General Schriver's office, sat down and had a chat with him, he being an old friend.  Mr. Stanton followed me in there, and Governor Moorhead, member of Congress from Pittsburgh.  He told Governor Moorhead to note the conversation, and I think he took notes at a side table.  He asked me pretty much the same questions as before.

Question.     State what he did ask?

Answer.     Whether I insisted upon acting as Secretary of War and should claim the office.  I gave a direct answer, "yes;" and I think it was at that time I said I should also require the mails.  I said that on one occasion, and I think then.  I did not know whether it is on the memorandum or not.  Then there was some little chat with the Secretary himself.

Question.     Between you and the Secretary.

Answer.     Between me and the Secretary.

Question.     Had these members of Congress withdrawn then?

Answer.     Yes sir.

Question.     Now, tell us what happened between you and the Secretary after they withdrew.

Answer.     I do not recollect what first occurred; but I said to him, "the next time you have me arrested" ---for I had found out it was at his suit I was arrested;  I had seen the paper---
Mr. Manager BUTLER.    Stop a moment.  I propose, Mr. President, to object to the conversation between the Secretary and General Thomas at a time which we have not put in, because we put in only the conversation while the other gentlemen were there.  This is something that took place after they had withdrawn.

Mr. STANBERY.    What is the difference; they did not stay to hear the whole.

The CHIEF JUSTICE.    It appears to have been immediately afterward and part of the same conversation.

Mr. STANBERY.    The same conversation went right on.

Mr. Manager BUTLER.    Will General Thomas say it was the same conversation?

The WITNESS.    Mr. Stanton turned to me and got talking in a familiar manner.

Mr. Manager BUTLER.    Go on, then, sir.

The WITNESS.    I said "the next time you have me arrested, please do not do it before I get something to eat."  I said I had had nothing to eat or drink that day.  He put his hand around my neck, as he sometimes does, and ran his hand through my hair, and turned around to General Schriver and said, "Schriver, you have got a bottle here; bring it out. [Laughter.]


Question.     What then took place?

Answer.     Schriver unlocked his case and brought out a small vial, containing, I suppose, about a spoonful of whisky, and stated at the same time that he occasionally took a little for dyspepsia. [Laughter]  Mr. Stanton took that and poured it into a tumbler and divided it equally and we drank it together.

Question.     A fair division?

Answer.     A fair division, because he held up the glasses to the light and saw that they each had about the same, and we each drank. [Laughter]  Mr. Stanton took that and poured it into a tumbler and divided it equally and we drank it together.

Question.     A fair division?

Answer.     A fair division, because he held up the glasses to the light and saw that they each had about the same, and we each drank. [Laughter]  Presently a messenger came in with a bottle of whisky, a full bottle; the cork was drawn, and he and I took a drink together.  "Now, said he, "this, at least, is neutral ground." [Laughter]

Question.     Was that all the force exhibited that day?

Answer.     That was all.

Question.     Have you ever had any instructions or directions from the President to use force, intimidation, or threats at any time?

Mr. Manager BUTLER.    Wait.  "At any time?"  That would bring it down to today.  I supposed the ruling did not come down to today.  Any time prior to the 21st or 22d of February I am content with your inquiring about, but I still must object to putting in what was said yesterday.

Mr. STANBERY.    On the 9th of March you say it still continued.

Mr. Manager BUTLER.    The 9th of March?

Mr. STANBERY.    Then we will inquire prior to the ninth of March. . . .

The WITNESS.    He did not.


Question.    Now please state what conversation you had with Mr. Burleigh on the night of the 21st of February.

Answer.     He came to my house and asked me in reference to this matter of my being appointed Secretary of War.  I told him I was appointed, and I mentioned what occurred between Mr. Stanton and myself, and I think it w as that which let him to ask me "What are you going to do?"  Mr. Stanton having said he did not know whether he would obey my instructions or resist them.  There are two persons I spoke with.  To one I said, that if  I found my door locked, or if I found the War Office locked, I would break open the door; and to the other I said I would call upon General Grant for force.  I have got them mixed up; I do not know which expression I used to Mr. Wilkeson, but one to him and the other to Dr. Burleigh;  I do not suppose it makes any difference which.  Their testimony shows that better than mine. Mr. Burleigh asked me what time I was going to the War Office.  I told him I would be there about ten o'clock the next day.  This was the night of the 21st I was talking to him.  The conversation was a short one; he very soon left me, saying he would call again.  I think he said he would come up to the War Office the next morning.

Question.     Did you ask him to go?

Answer.     I did not.  I think he said he would come and see the fun, or something of that kind.

Question.     What was the conversation you had with Mr. Karsner on the 9th of March?

Answer.     I would like to describe that.

Question.     What do you know of Mr. Karsner?

Answer.     I knew nothing about him whatever until I had seen him them.  If I had been asked the question, I should have said I had never seen him, though m7 attention was once called to the fact that I did once see him in the spring of 1827, when I happened to be at home with a severe spell of sickness.  I did see him on that occasion.  I suppose there were circumstances brought it to my mind.

Question.     What took place at the President's?

Answer.     It was toward the end of the President's reception, and I was walking with General Todd, and was about going out of the door when I found that this person rushed forward and seized me by the hand.  I looked surprised, because I did not know him.  He mentioned his name, but I could not recollect it.  I understood him to sat that he was from New Castle, my native village.  He certainly used both those words; but he says he did not; it is possible he did not, as he says he only stated that he was from New Castle county.  I may be mistaken; I do not want to do him an injustice.  He said that he knew my father and my brother, and that he had known me forty years before.  I suppose that would have been about the time I spoke of; but I have not recollection of it at all.  He held on to my hand.  I was surprised at the man's manner, because he came up to me as if I had been an intimate relation of his for years.

Mr. Manager BUTLER.    Stop a moment.  I suppose this is a little improper to give his surprises.  Tell us what was done and stated there.

Mr. STANBERY.    Go on, General.

The WITNESS.    I tried to get away from him, and he then said--- he was a Delawarean--- "the eyes of all Delaware are upon you [laughter,] and they expect you to stand fast."  I said:  "Certainly I shall stand fast."  and I was about leaving when he seized my hand again and asked me a second time and the same question, saying that he expected me to stand fast.  Said I:  "Certainly I will stand fast."  I was smiling all the time.  I got away from his hand a second time, and he seized it again and drew me further in the room and asked the same question.  I was a little amused, when I raised myself up on my toes in this way [standing on tiptoes] and said;  "Why, don't you see I am standing firm?"  Then he put this in my mouth: "When are you going to kick that fellow out,"  or something of that kind "Oh," said I, "we will kick him out by and by."

Question.     Are you certain the "kicking out" came from him?

Answer.     Yes, sir---oh yes.  [Laughter.]  I want to say one thing.  I did not intend any disrespect to Mr. Stanton at all.  On the contrary, he has always treated with kindness, and I would do nothing to treat him with disrespect.

Question.     Had you ever any idea of kicking Mr. Stanton for any purpose?

Answer.     No, sir.

Question.     How came you to use the word at all?

Answer.     Because it was put in my mouth.

Question.     Did you say it seriously or in a jocular way.

Answer.     (smilingly.)  I was very glad to get away; I went out at once.

Cross-examined by Mr. Manager BUTLER.

Question.     Did I understand you to say that there had been no unkind feelings between you and Mr. Stanton ever?

Answer.     No, sir; I do not think there ever had been any unkind feeling.

Question.     Or difference of opinion?

Answer.     There was a difference of opinion, I suppose . . . .

Mr. Manager BUTLER.    Now, General Thomas, when did you first receive the intimation from the President that you were to be made Secretary of War?

Answer.     The President sent for me on the 18th of February.

Question.     Three days before you got the order, was it?

Answer.     Yes, sir.

Question.     Have you ever stated that you had an intimation from the president that you were to be made Secretary of War earlier than that.

Answer.     I must now refer to a paper which I suppose you have.  When I was asked before one of the committees when I first got an intimation I supposed they were referring to my going in the Adjutant General's office, but I never had an intimation before the 18th of February that the President had any idea of making me Secretary of War.

Question.     Now, if you will pay attention to my question, General Thomas, and answer it you will oblige me.  My question was, whether you ever stated to anybody that you got such an intimation before that time?

Answer.     Not to my knowledge, unless it was before that committee, as I tell you, the two things were mixed up.

Question.     Did you not swear that before the committee?

Answer.     I afterward made a correction on that paper.

Question.     Excuse me; I did not ask you what corrections you made; I asked you what you swore to?

Answer.     I swore that I had received an intimation, but I found that it was not so, and I had a right to correct my testimony.

Question.     You were asked, then, before the committee, not the Managers?

Answer.     I am not speaking of the Managers, but of the committee.

Question.     You were asked  before a committee of the House when you received the first intimation.  How early did you swear that to be, whether it was a mistake or otherwise.

Answer.     The intimation that I received that I would probably be put in the Adjutant General's office must have been made some two weeks before the occurrence, perhaps.

Question.     I ask now, and I want you again to pay attention to my question---

Answer.     I know your question.

Question.     How early did you swear that you received an intimation that you would be made Secretary of War?

Answer.     I should like to divide those two things.  I told you that I corrected my evidence.

Question.     I am dividing them; now I am getting to what you swore to first; by and by I will come to the correction, perhaps.  I have divided them.  Now answer my question:  What did you swear to first before you took advice?

Mr. STANBERY.    "Took advice!"  Monstrous!

The WITNESS    I swore that I received an intimation---I think an intimation from Colonel Moore.

Question.     I did not ask you who you received it from; I asked the time when?

Answer.     I cannot tell the time; I do not know it.

Question.     What time did you swear it was.

Answer.     I say I do not know; I suppose two or three weeks; I cannot say.

Question.     Did you receive it from Colonel Moore, the Military Secretary?

Answer.     Receive what?

Question.     The intimation that you were to be made Secretary of War?

Answer.     No.

Question.     Did you so testify?

Answer.     I suppose not, because I tell you the two cases were in my mind.  I think I have answered it distinctly enough.  The honorable Manager is trying to mix two things, when I am trying to separate them.

Question.     Now, sir, did you not know or believe you were to be made Secretary of War before you received that order of the 21st of February?

Answer.     No, sir.

Question.     Did you not believe you were?

Answer.     The 18th, I said.

Question.     Now listen to the question and answer it.  That will be better.  I ask you if you did not know you were to be made Secretary of War before you received that order of the 21st of February?

Answer.     "Know" positive, no.

Question.     Did you not believe you were to be?

Answer.     I thought I would be, because it was intimated to me.

Question.     Intimated to you by the President himself?

Answer.    Yes, sir.

Question.  Did you tell him whether you would be glad to take the office?

Answer.     I told him I would take it; I would obey his orders.

Question.     What made you tell him that you would obey his orders.

Answer.     Because he was my Commander in Chief.

Question.     Why was it necessary to tell him you would obey his orders?

Answer.     I do not know that there was any particular necessity in it.

Question.     Why would you say to him, when he asked you yo be Secretary of War, that you would, and would obey his orders?

Answer.     Certainly, as Secretary of War.

Question.     Why did you feel it necessary in your own mind to say that you would obey his orders.

Answer.     I do not know that it ws particularly necessary.

Question.     Why did you do it?

Answer.        It was a very natural reply to make.

Question.     Tell me any other time, when you were appointed to an office, that you told the appointing power you would obey the orders? . . . .

Answer.     Certainly, it was; I never had one of that kind before. [Laughter]

Question.     And so extraordinary that you thought it necessary to tell the President before you got it that if he would give it to you you would obey his orders?

Answer.     I did not say any such thing.

Question.     You did so tell him?

Answer.    I did tell him so?

Question.     And you thought it was proper so to tell him?

Answer.     Certainly.

Question.     What orders did you expect to receive that you found it necessary to tell him you would obey them?

Answer.    I did not know that I was to expect to receive any particular order.

Question.     Then, before you got the appointment you told him you would obey the order.  This was on the 18th?

Answer.     Yes . . . .

Question.     Between the 18th and the 21st did you go to your friend Stanton and tell him that you thought of taking his place?

Answer.     No sir.

Question.     Were you in the War Office?

Answer.     I was generally there every day.

Question.     On the 21st you were sent for again by Colonel Moore, were you not?

Answer.     Yes, sir.

Question.     By a note?

Answer.     A note.

Question.     You got a note to go to the President's.

Answer.     I got a note to go to the President's.

Question.     Did you know for what purpose?

Answer.     I did not.

Question.     Did you suspect?

Answer.     I had no suspicion at all.

Question.     Did you not have some belief of what you were going there for?

Answer.     I had not.

Question.     And you went over?

Answer.     I went over, of course.

Question.     You went into the President's room, and he was coming out of the library, you say?

Answer.    I went into the council room, and he came out of the library with Colonel Moore.

Question.     Fetching two papers ready written?

Answer.     Yes, sir.

Question.     Now, please state to me exactly, in order, what was first said and what was next said by each of you.  The President is coming out with two papers in his hand; what next?

Answer.     I think the first thing he did was to hand them to Colonel Moore and tell him to read them.

Question.     What next?  They were read then?

Answer.     They were read and handed to me.

Question. What then?

Answer.     He said:  "I shall uphold the Constitution and the laws, and I expect you to do the same."  I said certainly I would do it, and I would obey his orders; that is the time I used that expression.

Question.     Let me see if I have got it exactly.  He came out with the two papers; handed them to Colonel Moore; Colonel Moore read them.  He then said:  I am going to uphold the Constitution and the laws, and I want you to do the same; and you said, "I will, and I will obey your orders?"

Answer.     I did.

Question.     Why did you put in you would obey his orders just then?

Answer.     I suppose it was very natural, speaking to my Commander-in-Chief.

Question.     What next was said then?

Answer.     He told me to go over to Mr. Stanton and deliver the paper addressed to him/

Question.     Which you did so?

Answer.     I did.

Question.     In the manner you have told us?

Answer.     Yes, sir. . . .

Question.     Did you see the President again that day?

Answer.     Not after I paid this visit.

Question.     Then after he told you to go and take possession of the office you did not see the President?  Was it Mr. Wilkeson or Mr. Burleigh that you first told about taking possession of the office?

Answer.     Wilkeson.

Question.     Where was that?

Answer.     I think it was in my own office first.

Question.     About how long after you left the President's?

Answer.     I am not certain whether it was before or after, as Wilkeson came there to see me.

Question.     You do not know whether it was before or after that?

Answer.     I do not recall whether it was before I went over to the President's or after.  I think it was before, however.

Question.     You told Mr. Wilkeson, he tells us, that you meant to call on General Grant for a military force to take possession of the office?

Answer.     Yes.

Question.     Did you mean that when you told it, or was it merely rhodomontade?

Answer.     I suppose I did not mean it, for it never entered my head to use force.

Question.     You did not mean it?

Answer.     No, sir.

Question.     It was a mere boast, brag?

Answer.     Oh, yes.

Question.     How was that?  Speak as loud as you did when you began.

Answer.     I suppose so.

Question.     Very well, then.  You saw Wilkeson that evening again, did you not, at Willard's Hotel?

Answer.     I think I saw him there for a few moments.

Question.     Did you again tell him you meant to use force to get into the office?

Answer.     That I do not recollect.  I stated it to him once I know.

Question.     Did he not then say, "But suppose the doors are barred;" I will batter them down,"  or "We will batter them down?"

Answer.     Yes, sir.

Question.     Was that a brag?

Answer.     No, sir.  At that time I felt as if I would open the doors if they were locked against me. . . .

Mr. Manager BUTLER.    Now, then, General Thomas, when you come to the solemn conclusion to use force after solemnly thinking of the matter, did you believe in your own mind you were carrying out the President's orders?

Answer.    No; quite the reverse.

Question.     Then when you came to that conclusion you believed you were going to do it against he orders, did you?

Answer.     Not in accordance with them, certainly.

Question.     Then, although you had told him on the day before that you would obey his orders, you came to a determination to do quite the reverse, did you?

Mr. STANBERY.    He has not said that.

Mr. Manager BUTLER.    I am asking him if he did.

The WITNESS.    Repeat the question.

By Mr. Manager BUTLER.

Question.     You say that you came to the solemn determination to use force, and you meant to do it, quite in reverse of the President's orders?

Answer.     I said no such thing.

Question.     Hear the question.  The day before when you received you appointment you told him you would obey his orders?

Answer.     I did.

Question.     The first act that you came to a solemn conclusion about was that you proposed to act the very reverse of his orders?

Answer.     I did not say that was in reverse of his orders.  I said that was my idea; if I was resisted, I could resist in turn.

Question.     Did you mean to do that act in obedience to the President's orders or against them?

Answer.     Not in obedience to the President's orders, for he gave me no orders.

Question.     You mean to say that you had come to a solemn resolution on your own responsibility to initiate bloodshed?

Answer.     I said that I would, if I found the doors locked, break them down, and I afterward said that when I came to think of the matter I found that a difficulty might occur, and I would not ben the means of bringing about bloodshed.  That is what I say.

Question.     Did you think you were justified in doing what you came to the conclusion to do by the President's order?

Answer.     I would have been justified as my own act.

Question.     Did you believe you were so justified by the President's order?

Answer.     No; not by the President's order--- by the appointment which he gave me, yes.

Question.     The appointment he gave you?

Answer.     I had a right then to go and take possession of that office.

Question.     By force?

Answer.     In any way I pleased?

Question.     At your pleasure, by force.  Now, did you ever ask the President what you should do?

Answer.     I did not.

Question.     Did you ever suggest to him that Stanton would resist?

Answer.     I reported to him from day to day that every time I asked him he refused?

Question.     Anything but the refusal?

Answer.     The refusal was the only thing.

Question.     Did you ever suggest to him that Stanton would resist?

Answer.     Resist by force?

Question.     Yes, sir.

Answer.     No; I said he refused.

Question.     Did you not understand in your own mind that he would so resist?

Answer.     I did not know what means he would take.

Question.     I did not ask you what you knew.  Did you not in your own mind believe he would resist?

Answer.     Yes.

Question.     Had you any doubt of it?

Answer.     I had not.

Question.     Did you not know that, if you got in at all, you must get in by force?

Answer.     Yes.

Question.     Did you ever report to the President, your superior, that you came to the conclusion that you could not get in, if you got in at all, except by force?

Answer.     I said no such thing to him.

Question.     Why did you not report to him the conclusion you came to?

Answer.     I did not think it necessary at all.

Question.     You reported to him every time Stanton refused?

Answer.     Yes.

Question.     But you did not think it necessary to report to him that could not get the office without resistance?

Answer.     No.

Question.     And you never asked his advice what you should do?

Answer.     No.

Question.     Nor for his command?

Answer.     No.

Question.     Nor orders in any way?

Answer.     No. He merely told me to go on and take possession of the office, without stating how I was to do it.

Question.     And how many times over did he keep telling you that, as you reported to him?

Answer.     I think I had three interviews with Mr. Stanton.

Question.     One Friday?

Answer.     One Saturday, one Monday, and one Tuesday; I think four.  Saturday was the time I made the demand.

Question.     Each time you reported it to the President?

Answer.     Yes, sir.

Question.     During all the time you were certain he would not give up except by force?

Answer.     I was certain he would not give up; he was going to keep it.

Question.     And, thinking it important to report each time his refusal, you never asked the President how you should get possession of the office?

Answer.     I never did.

Question.     Nor ever suggested to him that you could not get it except by force?

Answer.     I suggested to him that the true plan would be, in order to get possession of the papers, to call upon General Grant----

Question.     Leave the papers--- the office I am talking about?

Answer.     The papers are the thing.  You cannot carry on an office unless you have what is inside of it.

Question.     I did not ask how you can carry on an office.  I ask if you ever reported to him anything more than Mr. Stanton's refusal?

Answer.     I never did.

Question.     You never asked how you were to get possession of the building

Answer.     No.

Question.     Now, let me come to the matter of papers.  Did you afterward hit upon a scheme by which you might get possession of the papers without getting possession of the building?

Answer.     Yes, sir.

Question.     And that was by getting an order of General Grant?

Answer.     Yes---

Mr. EVARTS.    He has not stated what it was.

By Mr. Manager BUTLER:

Question.     Did you write such an order?

Answer.     I wrote the draft of a letter; yes, and gave it to the President.

Question.     Did you sign it?

Answer.     I signed it.

Question.     And left it with the President for his----

Answer.    For his consideration.

Question.     When was that?

Answer.     The letter is dated the 10th of March.

Question.     That was the morning after you told Karsner you were going to kick him out?

Answer.     That was the morning after.

Question.     And you carried that letter?

Answer.     I had spoken to the President before about that matter.

Question.     You did not think any bloodshed would come of that letter?

Answer.     None at all.

Question.     And the letter was to be issued as your order?

Answer.     Yes.

Question.     And before you issued that order, took that away to get hold of the mails or papers, you thought it necessary to consult the President?

Answer.     I gave that to him for his consideration.

Question.     You did think it necessary to consult the President, did you not?

Answer.     I had consulted him before.

Question.     Either before or after you thought it necessary?

Answer.     It was merely carrying out that consultation.

Question.     When you thought of getting possession of the mails and papers through an order as Secretary of War you thought it necessary to to consult the President; but you did not think any bloodshed would come from that, did you?

Answer.     No, I did not;  it was a peaceable mode.

Question.     When you were about taking a peaceable mode in issuing your order you consulted him?  When you had come to the conclusion to run the risk of bloodshed you did not consult him?  Is that so?

Answer.     I did not consult him.

Question.     Did the President ever give at any of these times any other answer than "Go on, and get possession?"

Answer.     No; not in reference to the office.

Question.     Did he ever chide you in any way for any means that you were employing?

Answer.     Never.

Question.     Did he ever find fault that you were doing it differently than what you ought to do?

Answer.     No.

Question.     Did he ever remark to you in any way about declarations of force until after these impeachment proceedings began?

Answer.     No.

Question.     They were published and notorious, were they not?  Have you acted as Secretary of War ad interim since?

Answer.     I have given no order whatever.

Question.     That may not be all the action of a Secretary of War ad interim.  Have you acted as Secretary of War ad interim?

Answer.     I have, in other respects.

Question.     What other respects?

Answer.     I have attended the councils.

Question.     Cabinet meetings, you mean?

Answer.     Cabinet meetings.

Question.     Have you been recognized as Secretary of War ad interim?

Answer.     I have been.

Question.     Continually?

Answer.     Continually.

Question.     By the President and the other members of the Cabinet?

Answer.     Yes, sir.

Question.     Down to the present hour?

Answer.     Down to the present hour. . . . .

Question.     Did the President in any of these interviews with you, his Cabinet counselor, his constitutional adviser, ever suggest to you that he had not removed Mr. Stanton?

Answer.     Never.  He always said that Mr. Stanton was out of office; he took that ground at once?

Question.     Were you not somewhat surprised when you heard Mr.Curtis say here yesterday that he was not removed?

Answer.    I do not know anything about that.

Question.     Did he ever tell you that you were not appointed?

Answer.     No.

Question.     Have you not always know you were appointed?

Answer.     Yes

Question.     Has he not over and over again told you you were appointed?

Answer.     No; not over and over again.

Question.     But two or three times?

Answer.     I do not know that it has come up at all.  He may have done it two or three times. . . .

Question.    Has not the President given you directions about other things than taking possession of the War Office?

Answer.    He has told me on several occasions what he wanted.  He wanted to get some nominations sent up here.  They were on the Secretary's table, on Mr. Stanton's table.

Question.     General Thomas, how many times yesterday did you answer that the President told you each time to "take possession of the office?"

Answer.     I have not read over my testimony particularly.  I do not know how many times.

Question.     Was it untrue each time you said it?

Answer.     If I said so it was.  "Take charge" were the words of the President.

Question.     Have you any memorandum by which you can correct that expression?  If so, produce it.

Answer.     I have no memorandum with me here; I do not know that I have any.

Question.     Have you looked at one since you were on the stand?

Answer.     I have not.

Question.     How can you tell better today than you could yesterday?

Answer.     Because I red that evidence as recorded.

Question.     You gave it yesterday yourself?

Answer.     I did.

Question.     And you could know better what it was by reading it than when you testified to it?

Answer.     Yes, sir.

Question.     And you are sure the word was "charge" each time?

Answer.     "Take charge of"
Question.     And then the three times when you reported to him that Stanton would not go out, refused to go out, each time he said, "Take charge of the office?"

Answer.     He did.

Question.     Was your attention called at the time he said that to the difference between taking "charge" of the office and taking "possession" of it?

Answer.     My attention was not called to it.

Question.     How, then, do you so carefully make that distinction now in your mind?

Answer.     Because I know that that was his expression.  I have thought the matter over.

Question.     You have always known that that was his expression have you not?

Answer.     Yes.

Question.     And you have thought the matter over?

Answer.     Yes.

Question.     Well, then, how could you make such a mistake yesterday?

Answer.     I think the words were put into my mouth;  I do not recollect distinctly.

Question.     The same as Karsner put in about the "kicking out?"

Answer.     Yes.

Question.     And you were rather in the habit, are you, when words are put into your mouth, of using them?

Answer.     I am not always in the habit.

Question.    Why was yesterday and exception?

Answer.     I do not know why it was an exception.

Question.     I want to ask you another question on another subject which was omitted yesterday?

Answer.     Certainly.

Question.     After you and Karsner were summoned here as witnesses, did you go out and quarrel with him?

Answer.     I had some words with him in the room here adjoining.

Question.     Did you call him a liar and a perjurer?

Answer.     I did.

Question.     You called him a liar and  perjurer, did you?

Answer.     I think I did both; I certainly called him a liar.

Question.     And a perjurer?

Answer.     I think it is probable I did; but the "liar" I know. . . . .

Question.        Did you offer violence to him?

Answer.     I did not.

Question.     Did you speak violently to him?

Answer.     I did not, except in that way.

Question.     Were you then in full uniform as now?

Answer.     As I am now.

Question.     There is another question I want to ask you which was omitted.  Do you still intend to take charge or possession of the office of Secretary of War?

Answer.     I do.

Question.     Have you said to any person within a few days, "We'll have that fellow," meaning Stanton, "out, if it sinks the ship?"

Answer.     Never.