Testimony of Whittaker Chambers before the House Committee on Un-American Activities
(August 3, 1948)



The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 11 a. m., in the hearing room of the Committee on Ways and Means, New House Office Building, Hon. Karl E. Mundt, presiding.

Committee members present: Representatives Karl E. Mundt, John McDowell, Richard M. Nixon, John E. Hallkin, J. Hanlin Peterson and F. Edward Hebert.

Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator; Louis Russell, Wi1liam Wheeler, and Donald T. Appell, investigators; and A. S. Poore, editor, for the committee. 

Mr. MUNDT. The hearing will come to order. The members present are Messrs. McDowell, Nixon, Rankin, Peterson, Hebert, and Mundt. 
Mr. STRIPLING. The first witness, Mr. Chairman, is Mr. Whittaker Chambers.  Mr. Chambers, will you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn, please? 
Mr. MUNDT. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I do. 


Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Chambers, you are here before the committee in response to a subpena that was served on you yesterday by Mr. Stephen v. Birmingham. Is that correct? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I am. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Will you state your full name?  
Mr. CHAMBERS. My name is David Whittaker Chambers. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Chambers, will you raise your voice a little please? 
What is your present address? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. 9 Rockefeller Plaza. 
Mr. STRIPLING. That is your business address? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. That is right. 
Mr. STRIPLING. What is your present occupation? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I am senior editor of Time magazine. 
Mr. STRIPLING. When and where were you born ? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I was born April 1, 1901, in Philadelphia. 
Mr. STRIPLING. How long have you been associated with Time magazine? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Nine years. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Prior to that time what was your occupation? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I was a member of the Communist Party and a paid functionary of the party. 
Mr. STRIPLING. When did you first join the Communist Party? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. 1924. 
Mr. MUNDT. Mr. Chambers, people at the press table still feel they can't hear you. Will you please speak louder? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I will speak as loud as I can. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Will you repeat when you joined the Communist Party? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I joined the Communist Party in 1924. 
Mr. STRIPLING. How long did you remain a member of the Communist Party? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Until 1937. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Where did you join the Communist Party? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. In New York City. 
Mr. STRIPLING. When did you disassociate yourself with the Communist Party? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I should like to read a statement if I may. 
Mr. STRIPLING. A statement you have prepared yourself? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. That I have myself prepared. 
Mr. STRIPLING. I suggest the witness be permitted to read this. He has shown it to me. 
Mr. MUNDT. I take it the statement you are about to read will indicate why you did disassociate yourself from the party? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I will try to do so. 
Mr. RANKIN. And we will be permitted to question him after this statement? 
Mr. MUNDT. Yes, sir. You will be permitted to read it. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Almost exactly 9 years ago-that is, 2 days after Hitler and Stalin signed their pact-I went to Washington and reported to the authorities what I knew about the infiltration of the United States Government by Communists. For years international communism, of which the United States Communist Party is an integral part, had been in a state of undeclared war with this Republic. With the Hitler-Stalin pact, that war reached a new stage. 
I regarded my action in going to the Government as a simple act of war, like the shooting of an armed enemy in combat.  
At that moment in history, I was one of the few men on this side of the battle who could perform this service. 
I had joined the Communist Party in 1924. No one recruited me. I had become convinced that the society in which we live, western civilization, had reached a crisis, of which the First World War was the military expression, and that it was doomed to collapse or revert to barbarism. I did not understand the causes of the crisis or know what to do about it. But I felt that, as an intelligent man, I must do something. In the writings of Karl Marx I thought that I had found 
the explanation of the historical and economic causes. In the writings of Lenin I thought I had found the answer to the question, What to do? 
In 1937 I repudiated Marx' doctrines and Lenin's tactics. Experience and the record had convinced me that communism is a form of totalitarianism, that its triumph means slavery to men wherever they fall under its sway, and spiritual night to the human mind and soul. I resolved to break with the Communist Party at whatever risk to my 
life or other tragedy to myself or my family. Yet, so strong is the hold which the insidious evil of communism secures on its dIsciples, that I could still say to someone at the time: "I know that I am leaving the winning side for the losing side, but it is better to die on the losing side than to live under communism." 
For a year I lived in hiding, sleeping by day and watching through the night with gun or revolver within easy reach. That was what underground communism could do to one man in the peaceful United States in the year 1938. 
I had sound reason for supposing that the Communists might try to kill me. For a number of years I had myself served in the under-ground, chiefly in .Washington, D. C. The heart of my report to the United States Government consisted of a description of the apparatus to which I was attached. It was an underground organization of the United States Communist Party developed, to the best of my knowledge, by Harold Ware, one of the sons of the Communist leader known as "Mother Bloor." I knew it at its top level, a group of seven or so men, from among whom in later years certain members of Miss Bentley's organization were apparently recruited. The head of the underground group at the time I knew it was Nathan Witt, an attorney for the National Labor Relations Board. Later, .Tohn Abt became the 
leader. Lee Pressman was also a member of this group, as was Alger Hiss, who, as a member of the State Department, later organized the conferences at Dumbarton Oaks, San Francisco, and the United States side of the Yalta Conference. 
The purpose of this group at that time was not primarily espionage. Its original purpose was the Communist infiltration of the American Government. But espionage was certainly one of its eventual objectives. Let no one be surprised at this statement. Disloyalty is a matter of principle with every member of the Communist Party. The Communist Party exists for the specific purpose of overthrowing the Government; at the opportune time, by any and all means; and each 
of its members, by the fact that he is a member, is dedicated to this purpose. 
It is 10 years since I broke away from the Communist Party. During that decade I have sought to live an industrious and God-fearing life. At the same time I have fought communism constantly by act and written word. I am proud to appear before this committee. The publicity inseparable from such testimony has darkened, and will no doubt continue to darken, my effort to integrate myself in the community of free men. But that is a small price to pay if my testimony 
helps to make Americans recognize at last that they are at grips with a secret, sinister, and enormously powerful force whose tireless purpose is their enslavement. 
At the same time, I should like, thus publicly, to call upon all ex-Communists who have not yet declared themselves, and all men within the Communist Party whose better instincts have not yet been corrupted and crushed by it, to aid in this struggle while there is still time to do so. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Chambers, in your statement you stated that you yourself had served the underground, chiefly in Washington, D. C.  What underground apparatus are you speaking of and when was it established? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Perhaps we should make a distinction at the beginning. It is Communist theory and practice that even in countries where the Communist Party is legal, an underground party exists side by side with the open party. 
The apparatus in Washington was an organization or group of that underground. 
Mr. RANKIN. When you speak of the apparatus in Washington you mean the Communist cell, do you not? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I mean in effect a group of Communist cells. 
Mr. RANKIN. A group of Communist cells when you speak of "apparatus" ? 
Mr. STRIPLING. Was a plan devised by the Communists to infiltrate the Government of the United States for the purpose of using these cells for the benefit of the Soviet Union? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I would certainly say that that would be an ultimate objective. 
Mr. STRIPLING. What about the particular apparatus to which you referred in your statement? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Do you mean was it a Soviet agency? 
Mr. STRIPLING. Was it established for the purpose of causing people in the Government to serve the ultimate objectives of the Soviet Union? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I think you could only say that in the extreme sense the American party is an agency which serves  the purpose of the Soviet Government. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Who comprised this cell or apparatus to which you referred? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. The apparatus was organized with a leading group of seven men, each of whom was a leader of the cell. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Could vou name the seven individuals? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. The head of the gronp as I have said was at first Nathan Witt. Other members of the group were Lee Pressman, Alger Hiss, Donald Hiss, Victor PerIo, Charles Kramer- 
Mr. MUNDT. What was Charles Kramer's correct name? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I think his original name was Krevitsky, and John Abt-I don't know if I mentioned him before or not-and Henry Collins, 
Mr. RANKIN. How about Harold Ware? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Harold Ware was, of course, the organizer. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Harold Ware was the son of Ella Reeve Bloor, the woman Communist? 
Mr. STRIPLING. Do you know where in the Government these seven individuals were employed? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I did at one time. I think I could remember some of them. 
Henry Collins was in the Department of Agriculture, Alger Hiss at that time I think was in the Munitions Investigation Committee or whatever the official title was, and Donald Hiss I think is in the Labor Department, connected with immigration. 
I don't know offhand what the others were doing. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Do you kuow whether or not Nathan Witt was employed in the AAA, the Agricultural Adjustment Administration? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. A number of  these men had been in the AAA. I think at that time Witt had already entered the National Labor Relations Board. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Do you know whether or not Lee Pressman was also in the AAA . 
Mr. CHAMBERS. He was at one time. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Chairman, I have a document here which shows the employment history of  Lee Pressman. 
Mr. MUNDT. Will you identity the document, please. 
Mr. STRIPLING.  It is Who's Who. 
Mr. RANKIN. .Who's Who in American Jewry; isn't it? 
Mr. STRIPLING. Yes: .Who's Who in American Jewry. He was assistant general counsel of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration, Washington, D. C., from 1933 until 1935, appointed by Secretary of Agriculture Henry A. Wal1ace. Then he was general counsel in Works Progress Administration from 1935, appointed by Harry L. 
Hopkins. Then he was general counsel of the Resettlement Administration, 1935, appointed by Rexford G. Tugwell. He was general counsel, June 1936  for the Committee for Industrial Organization and for the Steel Workers' Organizing Committee. Gelleral Counsel, March 1937, for Textile Workers' Organizing Committee. 
Mr. Chairman, that completes his employment with the Government service prior to his going with the CIO. 
Do you know where John Aht was employed? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. No; I don't. I have forgotten where he was at that time. 
Mr. MUNDT.  Do you have his employment record? 
Mr. STRIPLING. Acconling to Who's Who in Labor, Mr. Chairman, he gives his Govermnent service as follows: 
Chief of Litigation, Agricultural Adjustment Administration, 1933 to 1935; assistant general connsel of the WPA in 19B5; chief counsel of the La Follette Civil LibertiE's Committee, 1936 to 1937; special assistant to the United States Attorney General, 1937 and 1938. He is now with the Progressive Party of Mr. Wallace. 
Mr. RANKIN. You mean this Lee Pressman is supporting M:r. Wallace for the Presidency? 
Mr. STRIPLING. He is associated in an oflicial capacity with the Progressive Party. 
Mr. MUNDT'. Mr. John Abt also. 
Mr. STRIPLING. He likewise is associated with Mr. Wallace. 
Mr. HEBERT. There is no secret about the tie-up between Wallace and the Communists. There is no need to pursue that. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Do you rerall where Donald Hiss was employed at the time of this infiltration?. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I believe he was in the Department of Labor connected with Immigration. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Chairman, according to our check-I haven't checked back that far-but he is listed as an employee of the State Department February 1, 1938, to March 26, 1945. 
Mr. MUNDT. Is Donald Hiss a brother of Alger Hiss? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Younger brother of Alger Hiss. 
Mr. STRIPLING. I have here the employment record of Alger Hiss. 
Mr. MUNDT. I think you should read that into the record, including his present employment. 
Mr. STRIPLING. 1929 to 1980 he was secretary and law clerk to a Supreme Court justice. From 1930 until 1933 he engaged in the practice of law. 
Mr. RANKIN. May I ask what Supreme Court justice was he clerk for? 
Mr. STRIPLING. I will furnish you that, Mr. Rankin. 
Mr. RANKIN. I  would like to have it in this record right here and now. Can you give me that information? 
Mr. STRIPLING. I will furnish you that. From 1933 to 1935 he was employed by the Agricultural Adjustment 
Administration. However, during the year 1934 he was also attached to a special Senate committee investigating the munitions industry.  
In 1985 he was employed as a special attorney by the Department of Justice. September 18, 1936, he was appointed an assistant to the Assistant Secretary of State. That is the information that I have as of this time.. 
Mr. MUNDT. Do you have the record of when he left the State Department? 
Mr. STRIPLING. That information will be forthcon.ling very shortly. 
Mr. MUNDT. And why. Do you have the reason why he was removed from the State Department? 
Mr. STRIPLING. I have no information that he was removed, Mr. Chairman. 
Mr. Chambers, in connection with this apparatus operating here, what was your participation or your function in connection with it? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Originally I came to Washington to act as a courier between New York and Washington, which in effect was between this apparatus and New York. 
Mr. STRIPLING. You were a member of the Communist Party? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I was. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Were you a paid functionary of the Communist Party? 
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you meet with an these men you mentioned? 
Mr. STRIPLING. Where did you meet with them? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. At the home, the apartment of Henry Collins, which was at St. Matthews Court here in Washington. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Did this apparatus have a so-called headquarters? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. It wasn't called a headquarters, but the St. Matthews Court apartment was the closest thing to a headquarters it had. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Did Hal Ware also have an apartment where you met from time to time? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. No; he undoubtedly had an apartment, but no one met there that I know of. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Did his sister have a studio near Dupont Circle? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. His sister had a violin studio near Dupont Circle, which was used as a kind of casual meeting place or rendezvous for members of the group.. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Would you say most of the meetings were held in Henry Collins' apartment? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. All the group meetings were held there, not in the studio. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Henry Collins' apartment ? 
Mr. RANKIN. Who was the woman who ran the studio? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Helen Ware. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Chambers, when you met with these people at Mr. Collins' apartment, did you collect Communist Party dues from them? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I did not, but the Communist Party dues were handed over to me by Collins, who was the treasurer of that group. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Were any of these people members of the Communist Party? 
Mr. STRIPLING. Did an individual by the name of J. Peters have anything to do with the operation of this group? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. J. Peters was, to the best of my knowledge, the head of the whole underground United States Communist Party. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Did he from time to time come to Washington? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. He did. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Was he responsible for the setting up of this group? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. UltImately he must have been. He was certainly Harold Ware's superior. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Do you know what J. Peters real name is? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I have been told, I think it was Goldenweis, or some such name. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Goldberger? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Goldberger. 
Mr. RANKIN. What was his given name? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. He was known to me for years simply as Peters. 
Mr. STRIPLING. His name, Mr. Rankin, is well known in Communist Party circles. He has gone under the name of J. Peters, also under the name of Alexander Stevens, and has traveled on false passports under t he name of Isidore Boorstein. 
On October 30, 1946-- 
Mr. CHAMBERS. May I interrupt? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Peters told me at one time that he had been a petty officer in the Austrian Army during WorId War II. After the Bela Kun revolution in Hungary he was a member of the Soviet Government of Hungary, I think, in the agricultural commissariat. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Chairman, the Committee on Un-American Activities on August 19, 1947, issued a subpena to be served upon J. Peters calling for his appearance before the committee on October 30 of that year. We made a very diligent effort both in New York City and in up-State New York to serve this subpena. We have never 
been able to locate him and we have asked the assistance of the Depart ment of Justice and Immigration authorities, but still we have been unable to serve a subpena upon this individual. In Communist Party circles, according to our investigation, he has for years been known as the head of the underground. 
Was that your understanding, Mr. Chambers? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes, it was. 
Mr. STRIPLING. When you were in the party? 
Mr. MUNDT. You say this man was formerly a member of a foreign army and served as a member of the commissariat of a foreign government. Do you know whether he ever became an American citizen? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. No, I do not know. I think the presumption is probably he did not. 
Mr. MUNDT. He did not? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. That is right. 
Mr. MUNDT. The presumption is that the top direction of' these espionage activities carried on throughout our governmental departments was conducted by a man who was not an American citizen. 
Mr. STRIPLING. He is not an American citizen, Mr. Chairman. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I am not surprised.. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Deportation order has been issued against him in the last year, but his whereabouts is still unknown to us. He is a very important witness. 
Mr. MUNDT. Has the Department of Justice ever been able to locate him? 
Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Thomas, the chairman of our committee, communicated with officials of the Justice Department this year, as well as last year, in an effort to locate Mr. Peters, and so far we have not received information as to where he is. 
Mr. MUNDT. They will have to modify that statement that they always get their man and add "with the exception of Mr. Peters." 
Mr. RANKIN. You understand. Mr. Chairman, in the State of New York under their present FEPC law you can't ask a man ,vho applies for employment what his name was before it was changed or where he came from, so that it is a veritable storm cellar for people of that character. 
Mr. STRIPLING. We have in our possession a passport issued October 7, 1931, which was used by Peters to travel to the Soviet Union. The name on the passport is that of Isidore Boorstein. 
Mr. MUNDT. How does a man who is not an American citizen get a passport for travel abroad? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. May I interrupt? Peters once explained to me his process of securing false passports. 
Mr. MUNDT. I wish you would go into that in some detail because there have been many instances and it has become veritable racket where these Communists get passports to visit Soviet Russia. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. He told me with great amusement because of the simplicity of the scheme. He had sent up to the genealogical division of the New York Public Library a group of young Communists, I presume, who collated the birth and death records; that is, they found that a child had been born, let us say, in 1900 and died a month or so 
later or several months later. 
The party through some members then wrote to the proper authorities in New York for issuing birth certificates and asked for a birth certificate in the name of that dead child. The certificate was forthcoming and a passport was then applied for under that name by someone using that birth certificate. 
Mr. STRIPLING. We have an example, Mr. Chairman, of a passport being obtained through that same technique by the Communist Party in South Carolina. 
Mr. RANKIN. Under the FEPC law in New York, you couldn't even ask that man for his birth certificate or where he came from if he applied for employment. 
Mr. McDOWELL. For the present record it ought to be said that many Chinese have entered the United States by that same method in the last 15 years. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Chambers, when you would meet at the apartment of Mr. Collins and he would turn over Communist Party dues, would he turn over any other information to you, any other dues or information other than from these seven people? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Well, the dues were not simply from the seven people, I believe. Dues were from the whole apparatus, cells which were headed by these seven people. 
Mr. STRIPLING. How much money was turned over to you from time to time?  
Mr. CHAMBERS. That I don't know. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Was it a considerable sum? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. My impression was that it was and I believe I heard that because at that time the clues were 10 percent of whatever the individual's salary was. 
Mr. MUNDT. Miss Bentley testified before our committee and said that in her capacity as courier between Communist headquarters in New York and Washington, I think chronologically she followed you as courier and did that work, she mentioned that she also brought Communist literature and instructions from New York to Washington. Did you also do that? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I did. 
Mr. MUNDT. You did that, too? 
Mr. STRIPLING. When Miss Bentley testified before the committee last Saturday, Mr. Chambers, she mentioned the name of Victor Perlo as being the head of an espionage group. You have named Victor Perlo as a member of the apparatus. . 
Mr. STRIPLING. At that time do you know whether or not Victor Perlo was employed in the Government? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I believe at that time Victor Perlo was employed by the Brookings Institution. 
Mr. MUNDT. I think we read his employment record into the record of the hearing while Miss Bentley was testifying, did we not? 
Mr. STRIPLING. Yes, Mr. Chairman. I have his employment history here. It is already in the record. 
Mr. MUNDT. He was employed with the Government several times? 
Mr. STRIPLING. That is true, and was with the Brookings Institution, also. 
Would you tell the committee, Mr. Chambers, whether or not you ever held any important positions in the Communist Party? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I would hesitate to call them important. I was for a number of years the actual editor of the Daily Worker. The nominal editor was Robert Minor. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Robert Minor? 
Mr. STRIPLING. During what period was that? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I should think from about 1926 until 1929, when I broke with the Communist Party for 2 years, but I broke with it on a matter of tactics and not on a matter of philosophy. 
Mr. STRIPLING. When you left the Communist Party in 1937 did you approach any of these seven to break with you? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. No. The only one of those people whom I approached was Alger Hiss. I went to the Hiss home one evening at what I considered considerable risk to myself and found Mrs. Hiss at home. Mrs. Hiss is also a member of the Communist Party. 
Mr. MUNDT. Mrs. Alger Hiss? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Mrs. Alger Hiss. Mrs. Donald Hiss, I believe, is not. 
Mrs. Hiss attempted while I was there to make a call, which I can only presume was to other Communists, but I quickly went to the telephone and she hung up, and Mr. Hiss came in shortly afterward, and we talked and I tried to break him away from the party. 
As a matter of fact, he cried when we separated; when I left him, but he absolutely refused to break. 
Mr. McDOWELL. He cried? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes, he did. I was very fond of Mr. Hiss. 
Mr. MUNDT. He must have given you some reason why he did not 'want to sever the relationship. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. His reasons were simply the party line. 
Mr. HEBERT. I think there is a differentiation there that the witness has said he broke not because of his philosophy, but because of a disagreement as to tactics. What is the differentiation ? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. It is not of very great importance, but Stalin had recently come to power in Russia in the Communist Party. Here in the United States something entirely ]Jew happened within the party. Until then there had always been a majority and a minority group whose equal rights in debate were recognized. With the coming to power of Stalin and the Browder-Foster group in the United States, which represented the Stalin group, that was no longer true. Democracy disappeared from the Communist Party and the minority group 'was liquidated. In fact, it was the majority group. 
Mr. McDOWELL. Was that group that was liquidated the Trotskyites? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. No; it was the Lovestoneites. 
Mr. HEBERT. But as I understand your testimony, under Lenin you had democracy; is that right? 
Mr. HEBERT. You said with the coming of Stalin democracy was wiped out. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. There was in the Communist Party before Stalin the possibility of open argument between two groups of Communists, so that within the Communist framework there was a kind of democracy. 
Mr. HEBERT. You only quit because of the tactics and mechanics of the party, and not because of a change of philosophy? 
Mr. McDOWELL. The Lovestoneites were headed by Jay Lovestone? 
Mr. McDOWELL. Is he still a member of the party? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. He was expelled in 1929. 
Mr. RANKIN. If it had not been for those changes in tactics, would you still be a member of the Communist Party? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. At that time I was still a Communist, and I did not leave because I had ceased to be a Communist. I left because of a difference in tactics and a difference in atmosphere. 
Mr. RANKIN. When did you cease to be a Communist because of your convictions? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. 1937. 
Mr. RANKIN. Was Louis Budenz ever with you? 
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know him? 
Mr. MUNDT. As communism is now directed by Stalin from Moscow and as his tactics are now carried out, how would you differentiate between Stalin's communism and Hitler's nazism? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I should find that very difficult to do. I would say that they are most totalitarian forms of government, if you like. I feel quite unable to answer that. 
Mr. MUNDT. Would you say they are both different facets of fascism? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I think that would lead us into a very long discussion. 
Mr. MUNDT. Would you say the differentiation between fascism and communism is a distinction without a difference? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. It can be said loosely that communism is a kind of fascism, I think. 
Mr. MUNDT. It is pretty hard to find any basic distinction between fascism and communism as communism is practiced by the Stalinists in Moscow and as they direct the activities of the American Communist Party. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I think you have raised a philosophical and intellectual point which would require almost a book. It would require almost a book to develop and interpret that. 
Mr. MUNDT. Do you know of any vital distinction between communism as practiced in Russia and fascism as we generally understand it to be? I know the committee would be very glad to find that distinction because we have been unable to get it from any other witness. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I don't feel qualified to emphasize the distinction. 
Mr. RANKIN. Communism is atheistic, is it not? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. It is. 
Mr. RANKIN. One of its basic principles is the wiping out of the Christian church throughout the world? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Wiping out of all religion. Every Communist is ipso facto an atheist. 
Mr. RANKIN. It is also dedicated to the destruction of this Government and to the wiping out of the American way of life; is that correct? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes; it can be said. 
Mr. RANKIN. And also the wiping out of what it calls the capitalist system? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Certainly. 
Mr. RANKIN. The right to own private property? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. That is true. 
Mr. RANKIN. In other words, communism would make a slave of every American man, woman, and child excepting the commissars that dominated them; is that correct ? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. That is. 
Mr. RANKIN. And would close every Christian church in America? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Well, the Russian Church seems to have some kind of unhappy existence. 
Mr. RANKIN. I understand, but you know that they closed every church in Russia and they were closed at the time you quit the Communist Party? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. It can be said quite simply that communism is completely atheistic and is the enemy of religion in every form. 
Mr. RANKIN. In other words, they would close all churches of all kinds? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Mohammedan mosques, Jewish synagogues, as well as Christian churches. 
Mr. MUNDT. Go ahead, Mr. Stripling. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Chambers, Miss Bentley testified last Saturday, and she named Harry Dexter White as a person who worked with the espionage group. Did you know Harry Dexter White? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes, I did. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Is Harry Dexter White a Communist? Was he a Communist, to your knowledge? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I can't say positively that he was a registered member of the Communist Party, but he certainly was a fellow traveler so far within the fold that his not being a Communist would be a mistake on both sides. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you go to Harry Dexter White when you left the Communist Party and ask him also to leave the party? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I did. 
Mr. STRIPLING. You considered him to be a Communist Party member, then? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Well, I accepted an easy phrasing. I didn't ask him to leave the Communist Party, but to break away from the Communist movement. 
Mr. STRIPLING. What did he tell you? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. He left me apparently in a very agitated frame of mind, and I thought I had succeeded. Apparently I did not. 
Mr. MUNDT. Did you later have reason to feel that you had failed in that effort? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Miss Bentley's testimony and certain things I heard from other sources assured me that I had failed. 
Mr. MUNDT. Assured you that you had failed? 
Mr. McDOWELL. I think we should have Mr. White identified. 
Mr. STRIPLING. He was identified in the record the other day as Assistant Secretary of the Treasury and head of Monetary Research. 
Mr. HEBERT. This man White is the same man White Miss Bentley talked about; is that correct? 
Mr. MUNDT. His employment record was read into the record on Saturday. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Do you know an individual by the name of Harold Glasser, who was associated with-- 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I think I was introduced once or twice to Glasser. 
Mr. STRIPLING. He was also named, Mr. Chairman, by Miss Bentley. 
How many times would you say you met Victor Perlo? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. It would be very difficult to say, but I knew him over a period of-- 
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you know him rather well? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Not very well. I didn't specially like him. He seemed to be a rather sullen and shallow kind of man. 
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know where he came from? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. No; I don't. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Do you know an individual named Owen Latimer? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. No; I don't. 
Mr. MUNDT. You met Victor Perlo at this same Henry Collins apartment where you met these other gentlemen? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. That is right.- It is, in fact, the only place I ever saw him. I might add in that group he was a very minor figure. There was some kind of a struggle going on among these people for headship of the group because at one point Nathan Witt resigned, I suppose, and the headship of this group was elected within the group. 
Mr. MUNDT. After your period as courier at the time Miss Bentley took over, at that time Perlo had attained the leadership of one group and Mr. Silvermaster the other, which was the result, I presume, of the struggle you mentioned taking place within the apparatus at that time; is that correct? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. No; I don't think there was any connection. The rivalry was between John Abt and Victor Perlo, and, as I remember it, the only person who voted in that meeting for Perlo was Perlo. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Who was the actual head of the group? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. The actual head of the group-well, the elected head of the group was either Witt at one time or Abt, and the organizer of the group had been Harold Ware. The head of the whole business was J. Peters. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Harold Ware was employed in the AAA, was he not? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I don't know whether he was or not. I have known, I have forgotten. My impression is he wasn't. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Do you recall what happened to Harold Ware? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. He was killed in an automobile accident. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Here in Washington? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. No; I think in Pennsylvania. 
Mr. RANKIN. What was his real name? 
MI'. CHAMBERS. As far as I know, Harold Ware. I never knew him. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you ever meet Aubrey Wi1liams? 
Mr. CHAMBERS No; I never did. 
Mr. RANKIN. You say you are now with Time magazine? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. That is right. 
Mr. RANKIN. Are there any other Communists or ex-Communists in key positions with that magazine? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I would say that, like the American Government, Time magazine has had its problems with communism. 
Mr. RANKIN. You mean it still has them connected with it? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. No; I think being a smaller enterprise we have got rid of our Communists.. 
Mr. RANKIN. I see a name, William Schlamm. Do you know that man? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. William Schlamm was an Austrian Communist who broke with the party in 1929. 
Mr. RANKIN. Is he connected with Time magazine? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. He is connected with Time, Inc., I believe. 
Mr. RANKIN. Time magazine has been rather relentless in its attacks on this committee all along, and I "'as wondering what was the motive behind it. Can you give us answer to that. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. No; I don't feel qualified. That department of the magazine in which such news would appeal I am not connected with. 
Mr. RANKIN. I see. Certainly it is no affection for communism. 
Mr. STRIPLING. You said you never met Aubrey Williams? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. That is true. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you ever hear Aubrey Williams' name discussed at any of these meetings? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I can't say definitely that I did, but I have heard Communists mention Williams as a friend of the Communist Party. 
Mr. STRIPLING. But you don't know whether or not he was a member of the Communist Party? 
Mr. STRIPLING. He was considered by Communists to be friendly to their cause? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. That is true. 
Mr. HERBERT. Did you hear the name of Clark Foreman mentioned? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. No, I didn't. 
Mr. HEBERT. At any time. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. No; I am not familiar with that name. 
Mr. HEBERT. Can you at this time elaborate more on your connection with White? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes; I can. 
Mr. HEBERT. In other words, you actually talked to White? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes; of course. 
Mr. HEBERT. You discussed matters with him. I think it would be of interest to the committee to know what you discussed with him. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. After I had been in Washington a while it was very clear that some of the members of these groups were going places in the Government. 
Mr. HEBERT. What year is this? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I should think about 1936. One of them clearly was Alger Hiss, and it was believed that Henry Collins also might go farther. Another was Lee Pressman. So it was decided by Peters, or by Peters in conference with people whom I don't know, that we would take these people out of that apparatus and separate them from it physically-that is, they would have no further intercourse with the people there-but they would be connected still with that apparatus and with Peters through me. 
It was also decided to add to this group certain other people who had not originally been in that apparatus. One of those people was Harry White. 
Mr. RANKIN. You referred to a man a while ago by the name of Kramer. 
Mr. HEBERT. Mr. Rankin, would you mind letting hint finish with Mr. White? 
Mr. RANKIN. Very well. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Do you care to question me about White? 
Mr. HEBERT. I want to finish concerning White. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I thought I had. 
Mr. HEBERT. Was he considered as a source of information to the Communist cell? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. No. I should perhaps make the point that these people were specifically not wanted to act as sources of information. These people were an elite group, an outstanding group, which it was . believed would rise to positions as, indeed, some of them did-notably, Mr. White and Mr. Hiss-in the Government, and their position in the Government would be of very much more service to the Communist Party. 
Mr. HEBERT. In other words, White was being used as an unwitting dupe? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I would scarcely say "unwitting." 
Mr. HERBERT. Did he know what he was being used for? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I doubt whether the word "used" is even proper. 
Mr. HEBERT. Employed? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. He was, as nearly as I know, perfectly willing to cooperate. 
Mr. HEBERT. In your connection with White and your conversations with him-you met him personally and talked with him? 
Mr. HEBERT. From your conversations with him and his knowledge of the information that the Communist group was securing, or attempting to secure, and his knowledge of the whole set-up, the whole apparatus, would you say from that-in your opinion-that would elicit from him the exclamation over the week end. "This is fantastic! It is shocking!" that he was connected with the Communist group? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. He made this remark when he was asked? 
Mr. HEBERT. It was reported in the press that when informed of Miss Bentley's charges against him-and, mind you, Miss Bentley says she never saw White and cannot connect White except by hearsay evidence-that when he was confronted with Miss Bentleys testimony and the statement she made before the committee last Saturday, his exclamation was "It is fantastic! It is shocking I". 
From your information and personal knowledge, do you think that is a spontaneous outburst of surprise that he was connected with such a group in any way, even by remote control, as Mr. Rankin has said?  
Mr. CHAMBERS. After my evidence-my testimony-I should think he would have to find some more adjectives. 
Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Chambers, would you say, then, that the purpose of the Communist Party  
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Stripling, is he finished with his questions in regard to Mr. White? 
Mr. STRIPLING. I want to make an observation in connection with what he said. 
Mr. NIXON. All right; and I want to follow that. 
Mr. STRIPLING. I want to get clear the status of this select group that infiltrated the Government. 
Would you say the purpose was, on the part of the Communists, to establish a beachhead or a base from which they could move further into the Government and obtain positions of power, influence, and possible espionage? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I would say power and influence were the paramount objectives. 
Mr. STRIPLING. At that time? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes; at that time. You must remember you are dealing with the underground here in a formative stage, with Communists many of whom had not been in the party more than a year or so. 
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chambers, I want to ask you about this man you referred to a while ago, Charles Kramer. How do you spell that? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I believe it is spelled K-r-a-m-e-r. 
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say his real name was? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Krevitsky. 
Mr. RANKIN. Where did he come from? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I haven't the remotest idea. 
Mr. RANKIN. Was he a Communist? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I did hear. I think he came from New York City. 
He was an NYU man.. 
Mr. RANKIN. Was he a Communist? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Of course. 
Mr. RANKIN. Is that the same man who it was testified worked in the office of Senator Pepper at one time and Senator Kilgore at another? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I believe he was; yes. ' 
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not he was one of the men connected with the trumping up the persecution of Senator Bilbo? 
Mr. CHAMBER. I am not familiar with that. . 
Mr. RANKIN. You knew that Communists picketed Senator Bilbo's boarding house within two or three blocks of the Senate Office Building for months and months, did you not? 
Mr. MUNDT. I object to the designation of "boarding house." That is an apartment house, in which I live.  
Mr. RANKIN. Very well. we will call it an apartment house since Mr. Mundt objects to calling it a boarding house. However, he did have to hold his nose in order to get through that picket line. You said a moment ago when you quit the Communist Party you 
carried a gun. 
Mr. RANKIN. "Why did you carry that gun? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I carried the gun because I believed that the Communists might attempt to kill me. 
Mr. RANKIN. That is their program, is it, disposing of the men who quit the Communist line?. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. No; I wouldn't say it was an invariable program. They never did kill me. 
Mr. RANKIN. I understand; but you were prepared for it? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. It seemed to me that they might very well make the attempt. 
Mr. RANKIN.. You were doing it because you knew your life was in danger?. 
Mr. RANKIN. And you knew that if they did get an opportunity to bump you off without getting caught, that would probably be the course they would pursue? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. It seemed the natural thing. 
Mr. MUNDT. Mr. Chambers, I am very much interested in trying to check the career of Alger Hiss. I know nothing about Donald Hiss; but as a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, the personnel committee, I have had some occasion to check the activities of Alger Hiss while he was in the State Department. 
There is reason to believe that he organized within that Department one of the Communist cells which endeavored to influence our Chinese policy and bring about the condemnation of Chiang Kai-shek, which put Marzani in an important position there, and I think it is important to know what happened to these people after they leave the Government. Do you know where Alger Hiss is employed now? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I believe Alger Hiss is now the head of the Carnegie Foundation for world Peace. 
Mr. MUNDT. That is the same information that had come to me and I am happy to have it confirmed. Certainly there is no hope for world peace under the leadership of men like Alger Hiss
Mr. RANKIN. .Where is the headquarters of that organization? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I do not know. 
Mr. McDOWELL. New York. 
Mr. RANKIN. Under the New York FEPC law, you can't ask this man whether he is a Communist or not. or where he came from, or what his name was before it .was changed, You can't even ask for his photograph. Of course, he can get into an institution of that kind in New York, but he couldn't do it in Mississippi. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. May I interrupt? 
Mr. MUNDT. Proceed. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I think Mr. Donald Hiss, who was also in the State Department, is now in Mr. Corcoran's law firm. 
Mr. MUNDT. In .Washington? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. In Washington; and was connected with the negotiating of the loan to Poland. 
Mr. MUNDT. Tommy Corcoran, of the Corcoran-Cohen team? 
Mr. MUNDT. Do you know where any of the other seven people are 
Mr. CHAMBERS. No; I couldn't say. 
Mr. RANKIN. Right at that point, don't you think Mr. Carnegie the rich Scotchman that developed this foundation, would turn over in his grave if he knew that kind of people were running the foundation  
Mr. CHAMBERS. I am afraid he would. 
Mr. McDOWELL. I would like to observe to the committee that-referring back to Mr. White, who was surprised and shocked at the testimony given by Miss Bentley-that the Secretary of the Treasury has more skilled investigators and detectives and various people who are supposed to be able to develop information than any other department of the Government except the Attorney General; and it is passingly strange that this man could associate and be connected personally with this gang of international conspirators for as long a period as he was and then still not know what he was doing. 
Mr. MUNDT. Mr. Nixon. 
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Chambers, you indicated that 9 years ago you came to Washington and reported to the Government authorities concerning the Communists who were in the Government. 
Mr. NIXON. To what Government agency did you make that report? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Isaac Don Levine, who is now the editor of Plain Talk, approached the late Marvin McIntyre, Mr. Roosevelt's secretary, I believe, and asked him what would be the most proper form in which the information I had to give could be brought before President Roosevelt. 
Mr. McIntyre told Mr. Levine that Mr. A. A. Berle, the Assistant Secretary of State, was Mr. Roosevelt's man in intelligence matters. I then went to see Mr. Berle and told him much of what I have been telling you.. 
Mr. MUNDT. That was in 1937? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. That was in 1939 about 2 days after the Hitler-Stalin pact.. 
Mr. NIXON. When you saw Mr. Berle then did you discuss generally the people that were in Government, or did you name specific names? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I named specific names, Mr. Hiss among others. 
Mr. NIXON. Did you name Mr. Witt?. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I certainly did. 
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Pressman? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Mr. Pressman. 
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Perlo? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I think so. 
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Kramer? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Probably. 
MI'. NIXON. Mr. Abt? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Certainly. 
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Ware? 
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Collins? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes, I think so. 
Mr. NIXON. Mr. White? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. No; because at that time I thought that I had broken Mr. White away, and it was about 4 years later that I first told the FBI about MI'. White. 
Mr. NIXON. You told the FBI 4 years later when you had become  convinced you had not broken him away? 
Mr. MUNDT. Mr. Collins was also in the State Department? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes; I think he went in during the war. 
Mr. MUNDT. He belonged to the Alger Hiss cell in the State Department? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. He did. 
Mr. McDOWELL. Mr. Berle, is he the present head of the Liberal Party of New York State? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I am not sure whether he is or not. 
Mr. McDOWELL. Was he the A. A. Berle who became an Ambassador to one of the South American countries? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Brazil, I believe. He is an anti-Communist, it should be said, and a very intelligent man. 
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Berle? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Mr. Berle is an anti-Communist. 
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Chambers, were you informed of any action that was taken as a result of your report to the Government that time? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. No; I was not. I assumed that action would be taken right away which was, of course, rather naive of me; and it wasn't until a great deal later that I discovered apparently nothing had been done. 
Mr. NIXON. It is significant, I think, that the report was made 2 days after the Stalin-Hitler pact at the time, in other words, when we could not say by any stretch of the imagination that the Russians were our allies; and yet, apparently, no action was taken. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Well, we are here in an area of government which I am not qualified to talk about. 
Mr. RANKIN. What is that? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. We are here in an area of government policies I am not qualified to talk about. 
Mr. NIXON. I understand. 
Mr. MUNDT. At the time you reported these names to Mr. Berle, you had reason to believe that Communist Russia might well become an active enemy of this country rather than a friend through that Stalin-Hitler Pact ? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I never supposed Russia at any time was anything but an enemy of this country. It is an enemy of all democratic countries,  
Mr. RANKIN, I would like to ask about this statement. In your statement which you read to the committee awhile ago you use this statement: 
"Disloyalty is a matter of principle with every member of the Communist Party.". 
That was true back in the days when you were a member, was it? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. It was true from the time of the First International. 
Mr. RANKIN. You knew it was true then? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Of course. 
Mr. RANKIN, You say the Communist Party exists for the specific purpose of overthrowing the Government at the opportune time by  
Mr. RANKIN. Now, you mentioned a while ago Kramer. He :is a member is dedicated to this purpose. That was the case when you were a member and that is the case today? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. That has been the Case for just 100 years. 
Mr. RANKIN. In other words, every Communist who is now meeting in New York is dedicated to the destruction of this Government? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes. I refer you to the words of Marx and Lenin. 
Mr. RANKIN. Now, you mentioned a while ago Kramer. He is the fellow Krevitsky we referred to before? 
Mr. HEBERT. Mr. Chairman, may I ask the witness: 
Did you know a man named Saposs? 
Mr. CHAMBERS, Yes; I know of him. I do not know that he is a Communist. 
Mr. HEBERT. What do you know about his activities? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I know nothing about his activities. I knew him years ago as the author of a rather dull book on labor problems.  
Mr. HEBERT. You don't link him with these activities? 
Mr. HEBERT. What was Mr.Berle's attitude when you turned this information over to him? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Considerable excitement. 
Mr. HEBERT. What did he tell you? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I don't know that he made any very sensational comment, but he said among other things that I absolutely have to have a clean Government service because we are faced with the prospect of war. I am paraphrasing that. That is not an exact quotation. 
Mr. HEBERT. In view of the statements of Mr. Chambers at this time may I suggest that this committee invite Mr. Berle to come here so we can get the background and also corroborate this testimony. I think it is most important that every chain be linked with the other chain in this situation. 
Mr. MUNDT. Is he in this country? 
Mr. HEBERT. If he is in the country, he should be invited to come. I have every reason to respect the integrity of Mr. Berle. 
Mr. MUNDT. The Committee will take that up in executive session. 
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Berle testified before the committee last year. 
Mr. HEBERT. During the discussions on the Mundt-Nixon bill. . But the purpose now is to have him corroborate this. What I am most interested in is that this committee is not witch hunting or Red baiting, but is trying to get the facts of what is going on. Since this is a public hearing, I think all these matters should be brought out in full public gaze and for full public interpretation and appreciation of what we are trying to do; and for that reason I think every individual mentioned should be brought before the committee to either corroborate the testimony or impeach it. 
Mr. Berle's attention was directed to this matter, and I think it is of interest to the committee and the people at large to know why methods were pursued. 
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Chambers, you indicated a moment ago that it was approximately 4 years after you had spoken to Mr. Berle that you went before the FBI. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. That is right. 
Mr. NIXON. At that time you did give the FBI information concerning White? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. White, that is right. 
Mr. NIXON. Also did I understand you to say that Donald Hiss 
in his connection with Mr. Corcoran was active in negotiating the loan to Poland? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I have been told that. 
Mr. MUNDT. Is that all, Mr. Nixon? 
Mr. NIXON, Yes. 
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Hebert mentioned a while ago the fact that this committee had been accused of "Red baiting." It has only been accused of "Red baiting" by the Reds, their stooges, and fellow travelers. No intelligent American who knows the facts has ever accused this committee of "Red baiting." 
Mr. MUNDT. Any other questions? 
Mr. HEBERT. May I pursue just one more? 
Mr. MUNDT. Yes. 
Mr. HEBERT. What is your educational background? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I went to the public schools and then went to Columbia University for a year and a half. 
Mr. HEBERT. It is interesting. to note that every time we talk about communism we hear about Columbia University. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. There wasn't any in Columbia at that time. I became a Communist after I left the university. 
Mr. RANKIN. How about communism in that institution now? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I am not qualified to discuss it. 
Mr. HEBERT. You became a Communist through no persuasion of anybody else but purely through your own conclusions, in trying to follow philosophical thinking-you thought it was something to make a better world, to make the world a better place to live in, and nobody persuaded yon to become a Communist; is that right? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. That is true. 
Mr. HEBERT. Were you familiar with the American history and American government during your elementary schooling? 
Mr. HEBERT. Did that impress you? 
Mr. HEBERT. You threw that over? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I had reached the conclusion, particularly as a result of the war, that the whole system which we now know as capitalist society was in a very bad way and something very drastic had to be done to keep the whole thing together. 
Mr. HERBERT. You thought it was a new system? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I thought a new system was evolving. 
Mr. HEBERT. Pursuing Mr. Rankin's question, in connection with your statement that Communists are disloyal per se, did you consider yourself disloyal to your Government?. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Certainly. 
Mr. HEBERT. You remained an American citizen and yet you joined the Communist Party? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. All Communists do that. 
Mr. HEBERT. You are an intelligent individual and Well educated. You said members of the Communist Party were disloyal. Did it ever occur to you that you were disloyal to your own Government? Why didn't you renounce your citizenship? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. No Communist would ever think of doing such a thing. 
Mr. HERBERT. You knew you were being disloyal to the American Government? 
Mr. HEBERT. You preferred to be disloyal to gain the end that you thought you would make a better world? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. That is right. 
Mr. RANKIN. Were you a member of a church at that time? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. No; I was not. 
Mr. RANKIN. You never had been? 
Mr. CHAMBERS. I am now. 
Mr. RANKIN. A member of a Christian church now? 
Mr. MUNDT. Before releasing the witness the Chair would like to announce that we have gotten in touch with :Mr. Silvermaster, who has responded to our subpena and is in the city. Now he claims he has asthma, which he mayor may not have, because I can't believe these Communists, but since he claims he has an asthma attack, we are going to defer hearing Mr. Silvermaster until 10: 30 tomorrow morning. 
The Chair would like to say, Mr. Chambers, in conclusion, that we sincerely appreciate the testimony you have given here today. It is a tremendously difficult job to probe the thinking of the American Communist mind, and it is from men like you, Mr. Budenz, women like Miss Bentley, who have been down into the valley of the shadow and seen the error of the Communist philosophy and had the courage and good patriotism to renounce communism openly and to make available to the law-enforcement and investigating agencies of the Government your information-it is because of that that slowly but surely we are piecing together this pattern of the Communist conspiracy and helping to educate a rather gullible America to the fact that it can happen here and will happen here unless it alerts itself. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. It is happening here. 
Mr. MUNDT. It is happening here now, and this committee and the FBI are at least two agencies of Government doing the best they can at the moment to try to stop it. 
We appreciate the fact that it is not a pleasant assignment for you, sir. We thank you very much for coming here and cooperating so wholeheartedly on this problem. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Thank you. 
Mr. RANKIN. Speaking for the minority, I want to say that the gentleman has made a splendid witness, and I only regret that every patriotic American could not be here to hear his testimony. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. Thank you, sir. 
Mr. MUNDT. I hope that the other Communists who hear your testimony will change their minds and come here and share with us their thinking and their experience also. 
Mr. RANKIN. You failed to mention one fellow a ,while ago that in my mind made one of the finest witnesses that ever came here, and that was a Negro by the name of Nowell that told about being taken to Moscow and learning how to blow up bridges, blow up waterworks and powerhouses and carryon a revolution whenever the word came down. He came here at the risk of his own life, gentlemen. 
Mr. CHAMBERS. May I say the general name of that is "zersotzuffusteil." That means an apparatus for destroying. 
Mr. RANKIN. He made a good witness. 
Mr. MUNDT. Thank you very much for your cooperation, Mr. Chambers. The committee will recess until tomorrow morning at 10: 30. 
(Whereupon, at 12: 15 p.m., the committee recessed until 10: 30 a. m., Wednesday, August 4,1948.) 

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