Nicola Sacco, Sworn.

THE COURT.  Let me suggest, Mr. Sacco, to you, the same as I did to Mr. Vanzetti, if you do not understand any questions put to you either by Mr. Moore or by,--either in direct examination or by Mr. Katzmann in cross-examination, it is your right to say so and have the questions put so that you may understand each one and all.  You may proceed, Mr. Moore.
Q. [By Moore.] Mr. Sacco, state your name in full, please.
A. Nicola Sacco.
Q. Where were you born?
A. Toremaggione, Italy.
Q. What year were you born?
A. 1891.
Q. Your father, what business was he in there?
A. Business man of olive oil.
Q. Raising olives?
A. No, buy olive oil.
Q. How long did you go to school?
A. Seven to fourteen.
Q. And why did you leave school?
A. Well, my father was need very bad on our property,-vineyards.
Q. Needed working on the vineyards?
A. Yes.
Q. How many children were there in your family?
A. Seventeen.
Q. And after you quit school at fourteen, what did you do then?
A. I went to work in,--after fourteen I went to work with my father.
Q. After fourteen you went to work with your father?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did you continue to work at the family place?
A. I continued to work until fourteen to sixteen.
Q. Then what happened, Mr. Sacco?
A. Well, I did not like very much agriculture.
Q. You did not like farm work?
A. No.
Q. No.
A. No, so I went and learned mechanic.
Q. Where did you go to take up mechanical work?
A. In the same town.
Q. When did you leave Italy to come for the United States, what year?
A. 1917.
Q. What year did you leave Italy?
A. 1908.
Q. And how did you happen to come here?  What was the occasion for your coming here?  Who did you come with?
A. Well, my father got some friend here when he was young.  This friend, he baptize most of the people in the family, so my brother-who is Sabeno-he was in army three years and he served in the army about thirty-six months.
Q. In the Italian army?
A. Yes, so he came back.  My father's friend live in Milford and he liked very much to see my brother, so my brother when he came back from the army, he desired to come to this country, so I was crazy to come to this country because I was liked a free country, call a free country, I desire to come with him.
Q. So you two came together, did you?
A. Yes.
Q. How old were you at that time?
A. Seventeen years old.
Q. Do you know at what port you landed?  Where did you come into the United States, at what city?
A. Milford.
Q. No, I mean what—
A. Massachusetts.
Q. Where did you land in the United States, what harbor, what city did you come into when you came in on the boat?
A. In Boston,--White Star Line.
Q. Where did this friend of your father's live?
A. He is dead now, but the folks live in Milford yet.
Q. You and your brother went where upon your arrival here?
A. To Boston.
Q. You and your brother Sabeno, where did you go?
A. We got a steamboat to Naples to Boston the last of April.  We reached Boston about twelve,--no, the last of March.  We reach Boston at twelve of April, 12th of April, 1908.
Q. And then where did you go immediately on arrival here?
A. Start to Milford the same night.
Q. And you were what age it the time of your arrival in this country?  A. What years?
Q. What age were you, how old were you?
A. Seventeen years old.
Q. When you went to Milford, what kind of work did you first take up?
A. Well, my brother Sabeno, after next day--
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment, if your Honor please.
THE WITNESS.  All right.
Q. What kind of work did you take up?
A. I loaf a couple of weeks.  I had an idea to go in a shoe factory to learn a job, but that time in the shoe factory was very slack and I go to see if I could go get another job.  I was kind of sick.
Q. What kind of work did you take up first?  A. Water boy.
Q. In what character of work was that, construction work, do you mean?
A. Contractor work, sanitary for Milford.  Who done the work, the contractor was the Draper Company.
Q. How long did you follow that line of work?  A. About six months, six or seven months, anyway I am not certain.
Q. Then what did you do?  A. In the winter time, it was kind of cold, you know, so I decided to work in the factory.
MR. KATZMANN.  I object, if your Honor please.  The answer is not responsive.
Q. What did you do after you go through with this work as a water boy?
A. I got a job in Draper, in the foundry.
Q. At Milford?
A. Yes, sir.  No, well, five cent ride to Milford, to Draper to Hopedale.
Q. Hopedale?  A. Yes.
Q. Now, how long did you work in the foundry at Hopedale?
A. I should say about a year, pretty near, not certain, but pretty near.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. So I decided, my brother want to come back to the old country.
MR. KATZMANN.  I object, if your Honor please.
Q. Not what your brother did, Mr. Sacco.  What you did.
A. I decided to learn a job, a trade, so I did.
Q. Where did you learn edge trimming?
A. Michael Kelly, 3-K.  He used to run the little factory over there at that time.  He used to do about eighty dozen a day.
MR. KATZMANN.  I ask that be stricken out, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  It may be.
Q. Were you paid to learn that trade?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. After you had learned the trade, Mr. Sacco, what did you do then?
A. After three months, I got a job in Webster.
Q. Massachusetts?
A. Massachusetts, yes, sir.
Q. How long did you work there?
A. All winter; about six or seven months.
Q. And that was at edge trimming?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then what did you do?
A. A friend of mine wrote to me a special delivery.
MR. KATZMANN.  I object, if your Honor please.
Q. Wait. What did you do, not what some one else do, but what did you do?
A. I left the job at Webster.  I took a job at Milford Shoe Company, Milford.
Q. Milford Shoe Company at Milford?
A. Yes.
Q. As an edge trimmer?
A. As an edge trimmer.
Q. When did you start in there as an edge trimmer?
A. You mean the year?
Q. Yes.
A. 1910.
Q. 1910?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long did you work it the Milford Shoe Company as an edge trimmer?
A. Until 1917.
Q. What month, if you know, when you left the Milford Shoe Company?
A. The last of March, before the registration.
Q. Well, now, assuming that registration was on June the 5th, 1917, how long before that date was it that you left the Milford Shoe Company?
A. Sometime, a week before.
Q. A week before.  Then, from 1910 until the last week in April--in May of 1917--during all of that period did you work for the Milford Shoe Company?
A. Yes, sir, right along.
Q. What did you do in June of 1917?
A. I left Milford.
Q. You left Milford?
A. Yes.
Q. How long were you away from Milford?
A. I should say about three months and a half or four months.
Q. Were you outside of the state of Massachusetts during that period of time?
A. Outside of this country, the United States.
Q. What month, if you know, did you come back?
A. Sometime the last of September.
Q. The last of September, 1917?
A. 1917.
Q. What?
A. I should say August.
Q. The last of August of 1917?
A. Yes.
Q. Why did you come back?
A. I call it September, anyway.
August,--September.
Q. Why did you come back?
A.. Well, I could not stay no more.  I leave my wife here and my boy.  I could not stay no more far away from them.
Q. You were married when?
A. 1912.
Q. You had a child at this time, did you, when you—
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How old was your boy ,it that time?
A. When I left Milford?
Q. No. When you came back from outside of the states.  How old is your boy now?  A. He is going on nine years.  He finished eight years the 10th of May, last May.
Q. When you returned here in the fall or summer of 1917, what did you do then?
A. I went straight to see my wife in Cambridge.
Q. Did you go to work then?
A. Yes, sir.  After a few days.
Q. Where did you go to work?
A. Cambridge, in a candy factory.  They used to make candy.
Q. And what name had you been using during this interval?
A. I left--
MR. KATZMANN.  Wait a minute.  What is the question?  If your Honor please, several intervals have been spoken of.
Q. What name had you been using since you left Milford in April, in May of 1917?
THE COURT.  Does it appear he used any other name than his own?
Q. Yes.  Had you, I am asking you?
A. Yes.  Nicola Mosmacotelli, my mother's second name.
Q. When did you take that name?
A. When I left Milford.
Q. How did you get that name?
A. Well, to not get in trouble by registration.
Q. Is it part of your family name?
A. My mother's second name.
Q. Your mother's maiden name?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you ever in your life up to this time used any name other than your own?
A. No, sir.
Q. When you came back to Cambridge did you then take and follow out using this name in the work you did it Cambridge?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. This is in the fall of 1917, is it?  What month?
A. 1917.  September.
Q. What was the next place you worked after leaving the candy company at Cambridge? A. I used to buy the Globe every morning, so I find a job over in East Boston, the Victoria Shoe Company, so I left there for a week or two.  Those women's shoe, I never trimmed on women's shoes before.  It was very hard for me to trim them, the heel was too high, so I couldn't make no more than two dollars a day.  I decided to leave the job and go pick and shovel be better, make more money if I couldn't find a job.
THE COURT.  Did he say how long he worked in the candy shop?
Q. How long did you work in the candy company?
A. I should say about three weeks.
Q. Then how long did you work in the company at East Boston?
A. I don't think I did work no more than seven or eight days.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. So one night--
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment, if your Honor please.
Q. What was the next piece of work you did?  What company did you work for next?
A. Rice & Hutchins' shoe factory.
Q. What?
A. Rice & Hutchins' shoe factory, South Braintree.
Q. Rice & Hutchins' at South Braintree?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. About what date was that?
A. I should say the last of October.
Q. Of nineteen hundred what?
A. 1917.
Q. Last of October of 1917?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what department, if you remember, did you work there?
A. I forget what they call the room.
Q. Was it your own line of work as edge trimmer?
A. Yes, the same line.
Q. Were you doing edge trimming?
A. No, sir.
Q. Then you did not get a job as edge trimmer with Rice & Hutchins?
A. No, because the boss--
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
Q. You did not?
A. No.
Q. How long were you there?
A. Seven or eight days, no more.
Q. Why did you leave?
A. Because that was not my job.  I was to get only $13 a week.
Q. Then where did you go?
A. I go straight to Haverhill.
Q. Now, when did you go to work for Mr. Kelley at the 3-K shoe at Stoughton?
A. It began in November of 1918.
Q. In November of 1918?
A. Yes, sir.  One week before the armistice.
Q. And where were you working at the time that you went to work for the 3-K?
A. I was working, E. Taylor Shoe Company in Brockton.
Q. What were the conditions?  How did you happen to go over to the 3-K?
MR. KATZMANN.  I object.
MR. MOORE.  I won't press it, if your Honor please.  I don't care for it particularly.
THE COURT.  It appears that he did.  That is all.
Q. During the period after leaving Rice & Hutchins, and the time you went to work f or the 3-K, had you worked f or a number of other companies?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. For approximately how many, if you know?
A. In Brockton.  Fred Field.
Q. Oh, no, you did not get my question.  How many different companies had you worked for during the period after leaving Rice & Hutchins and going to Milford or going to the 3-K?
A. I see.  I should say about six.
Q. And when you went to work in November, of 1918, for the 3-K-
A. Excuse me, Mr. Moore, because I changed factories but I have been working pick and shovel at some other places, so that would be more in number, I mean.
MR. KATZMANN.  I don't get the answer.
THE WITNESS.  I have been carrying iron in South Boston, too.
Q. Were you working during all the time?
A. All the time.
Q. Then you went to work for Mr. Kelley at the 3-K, in November?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you work all the time from that through to the time of your, --of May the 1st of 1920?
A. No. I was sick sometimes.
Q. When, if you remember?
A. 1.919, three weeks before Christmas, sick about three or four weeks, anyway.
Q. You were sick for some three or four weeks?
A. Three weeks, sure.
Q. In December of 1919?
A. Yes.
Q. Aside from that, were you working during the entire period of time that you were with Mr. Kelley?
A. I did not get that.
Q. Aside from,--is this the only long vacation or long absence from the factory?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, Mr. Sacco, are your father and mother living?
A. My father is living.  My other died.
Q. Had you any communications from your,--when did your mother die?
A. 7th of March, 1990.
Q. Was her illness a lingering illness or a sudden one?
A. I did not get you.
Q. Was she sick for a long period of time?
A. Yes.  Heart trouble, heartsick, heart trouble.
Q. Had you had various letters from your people dealing with the matter of the sickness in the family?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Mr. Sacco, where were you on April 15th, Mr. Sacco?
A. I was in Boston.
Q. What hour that day?  Or, first, I will ask you what you went to Boston for?
A. To get my passport.
Q. Now, at any previous time before that time, had you made any effort to get a passport?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. How long before?
A. Sometime in the middle of March, I should say the middle or last of March.
MR. KATZMANN.  I don't get it.
THE WITNESS.  I should say the middle or last of March.
Q. Did you at that time,-what occurred, did you make an application for a passport?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment, if your Honor please.  I object.  Too leading.
Q. Did you make an application for a passport?
A. I went to see why I could not get my passport, what way I could get it.  You know, I did not know what way I could get information.
Q. Now, on April, 15th, what did you go into Boston for?
A. To get my passport.
Q. What time did you leave Stoughton that day?
A. I leave Stoughton on the 8.56 train.
Q. Are you absolutely sure of that hour or about that hour or what?
A. I am sure.
Q. And went into Boston?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And where did you go on arrival in Boston?
A. I left the South Station.  I went in the North End.  I went buy a paper, La Notizia.
Q. You went to the North End?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you get a paper?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you get it?
A. Prince Street.
Q. Prince Street?
A. Yes.
Q. Near where?
A. Between Hanover and Prince, between Hanover and North Square.  I suppose Hanover like that, Prince cross like that, and North Square right-I back,-sort of finish in North Square, passed through Hanover.
Q. What did you do then?
A. Oh, I stayed over there about fifteen minutes, I guess.  I read a little.  So then I take a walk, and I went on Hanover Street.
Q. What else did you do that forenoon?
MR. KATZMANN.  Mr. Moore, we would like to hear what this witness is saying.
MR. MOORE. [To the witness.] Speak up so that everybody can hear clearly what you say.
MR. KATZMANN.  You asked him how long he remained after buying the paper.
THE WITNESS.  About fifteen minutes.  I don't know exactly.
Q. Suppose you speak as though you were talking to me.
A. All right.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I turned a corner on Hanover Street.
Q. Where did you go?
A. I started to walk, and I met a friend.
Q. Do you know who that was?
A. Sure.
Q. A. Monello,--Angelo Monello.
Q. And did you have a talk with him?
A. Yes.
Q. Then where did you go?
A. We walked until Washington Street, and I go back again, so I stopped in the stores and been looking at a straw hat, some suits,--a price, you know.  Then I go back.  I have my mind to go in the afternoon and get my passport.  I say probably I go to get my dinner first, so I have a little time and I go there, so I went over to Boni's restaurant.
Q. And who did you see there?
A. I met Mr.-Professor Guadenagi.
Q. Who else, if any one?
A. That is the first one I met, before I go into the restaurant.
MR. KATZMANN.  Mr. Moore, we cannot hear this witness.
MR. MOORE.  Keep your voice up, Mr. Sacco.
Q. Who did you meet outside of the restaurant?
A. Professor Guadenagi.
Q. Any one else after going in?
THE COURT.  How do you spell that name, please?
THE WITNESS.  It is so hard.  I could write it.
Q. Now, do you remember who else you met there, if any one?
A. Yes.  Mr. Williams.
Q. Anyone else?
A. Mr. Bosco.
Q. Is there any one else?  Well, how long were you in the restaurant?
A. I should say about an hour and fifteen minutes,--fifteen or twenty minutes.
Q. Do you know about what time you left there?
A. Yes.
Q. And then where did you go?  At what hour did you leave there?
A. Twenty minutes past one; twenty minutes past one.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. I went right straight to the consul’s,--Italian consul.
Q. About what hour, if you know, Mr. Sacco, did you get to the Italian consul?
A. It was about two o'clock.
Q. And what occurred on your going into the consulate?  Who did you talk with there and what happened?
A. I went in and meet in the office, and I got near the,--when I went in the office there is a bank just like this [indicating).  I went in and a man came around.
Q. You went up to the railing?
A. Yes.
Q. And then a gentleman the other side came up to his side of the railing?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you talked together?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, what did you say and what did he say?
A. I said, "I like to get my passport for my whole family." He asked me,--he said, "You bring the picture?" I said, "Yes," so I gave it to him, see, a big picture.  He says, "Well, I am sorry.  This picture is too big." "Well," I says, "can you cut, and make him small?" "No," he said, "the picture we cannot use, because it goes too big." I says, "Can you cut?" He says, "No, no use, because got to make a photograph just for the purpose for the passport, small, very small,"--so I did.
Q. Now, I call your attention to the photograph marked "B" attached to the depositions in this case.
MR. MOORE.  You gentlemen have seen this, I believe.
MR. KATZMANN.  Yes.
Q. Is that a duplicate of the photograph that you showed the gentleman there that day?  A. Yes, sir.
MR. MOORE. [Showing picture to the jury.] I imagine you gentlemen have all seen this.
Q. How long were you in the consulate, to your best recollection?
A. Ten or fifteen minutes, I should say, about ten minutes.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. I go back to buy my stuff, groceries, so before I got my groceries, I went to get coffee in a coffee store in the North End near the Boni restaurant, near the Boni restaurant.
Q. About what time did you get to the cafe, or coffee house?
A. It was a little before three o'clock.
Q. How long were you in there, if you remember?
A. I don't remember certain what time I remained there.
Q. About?
A. About twenty minutes,--twenty.
Q. Twenty minutes.  And did you see any one while you were there?
A.  Yes.
Q. Who?
A. Professor Guadenagi.
Q. Any one else, if you know?
A. Yes.  Professor Dentamore.
Q. Then where did you go?
A. I went to buy grocery.
Q. Do you remember where?
A. Yes.  I do not remember the name of the store, but I remember the street, the same street in the North End, about fifteen minutes,--about fifty steps from, well, I should say about one hundred steps from the cafe.
Q. From the cafe?
A. Yes.
Q. And on what street, on the North Square there?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
A. North End.
MR. KATZMANN.  Wait a minute.
THE COURT.  Leading.
Q. What street was it on?
A. North End.
Q. How long were you there?
A. I should say a half hour, pretty near.
Q. Was there anything else you did?
A. I am not sure, but twenty or twenty-five minutes, anyway.
Q. What did you do from there?  Where did you go?
A. Home.
Q. You mean to Stoughton?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know about what hour you left for Stoughton that night, that afternoon?
A. I should say about twelve minutes past four.
Q. And you went immediately back to Stoughton and then to your home?
A. Yes.
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  Leading.
Q. What did you do on arrival at Stoughton?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.  I object.
Q. Did you take a train to Stoughton?
A. Yes.
Q. All right.  What did you do when you got there?
A. I went and buy elixir for physic.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. I went home, walking home.
Q. Do you know about what time you got there?
A. Around six o’clock, I should say.  I don't remember exactly, but around six o’clock, anyway.
Q. Now, that afternoon or that day in Boston, do you remember any other particular thing or special thing that occurred during this morning or afternoon?
A. In the afternoon, yes.
Q. What?
A. I met Afa and pay him $15 for bill.
Q. Are you sure about any of these spellings, or are you just spelling by your ear?
A. I know him sure.  I think Afa is the way you spell it.  I don't know for sure.
Q. At any time, Mr. Sacco, on April 15, 1920, were you at South Braintree, Massachusetts?
A. No, sir.  What do you mean, working?
Q. Doing anything?
A. Any day?
Q. No. Were you at any time, on April 15, 1920, at South Braintree?
A. No, sir.
Q. You have heard certain testimony placing you in the railroad station at South Braintree during the hours about noon hour of that day?
A. Never.
Q. Is that statement false or true?
A. True.
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment, if your Honor please.
Q. Were you in that station at any time that day?
A. South Braintree station?  No, sir.
Q. You have also heard certain testimony referring to you as being at or near the corner of Pearl and Hancock Street sometime around about the noon hour of that day leaning up against a window there.  At any time, either at that hour or any other hour--
A. Never.
Q. --on April 15th, were you in South Braintree?
A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Sacco, how long have you known Mr. Vanzetti?
A. I should say about three years before I got arrested.
Q. About two years before you were arrested?
A. Three years, three years before I got arrested.
Q. Three years before you got arrested?
A. Because no personality but I know the name about four years, pretty near.
Q. Personally, you mean?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see Mr. Vanzetti at any time on or about April 15, 1920?
A. No, sir.
Q. When was the first time that you saw him during anywhere near that period of time?  A. The 25th of April.
Q. The 25th of April, 1.920?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the occasion of your meeting him at that time?
A. Naturalization Club in Maverick Square, East Boston.
Q. In what time of day was this meeting?  A. Well, I went in there
in that hall in the afternoon.
Q. And did you know that Mr. Vanzetti was going to be there?
A. No, I never,-was not sure he would be there.
Q. What was the -occasion for your being there?  Why did you go, for what purpose?
MR. KATZMANN.  How is that competent, if your Honor please?
THE COURT.  That is not involved in the day in question is it?
MR. MOORE.  No, your Honor.  In fact, the only reason is I am trying to find out the reason for being there.  That is all.  I have no intention of going into this in any detail.  Just simply to explain the
THE COURT.  Suppose there was some meeting there in Boston in some hall, and he attended there.  He attended that meeting and while there he met the defendant Vanzetti.
Q. What was this meeting, Mr. Sacco?
A. It was a meeting because we had been sending money to New York, and we don't know who is the treasurer.  We don't know if he is a spy or a friend to us.  We do not know who he is.  I been sending twenty-five,--$21 once.
MR. KATZMANN.  Now, if your Honor please, I ask that be stricken out.
MR. MOORE.  I will agree that all he personally did shall be stricken.
The only--
THE COURT.  What has that got to do with this matter at the present time, anyhow?  It is an entirely different situation
THE COURT. --with this defendant at the present time.  For all I know, we may never reach it.
Q. Who were present there, if you know?
A. Yes.
Q. How many persons were there?
A. I should say about fifteen.  Probably more, but I cannot say exactly how many there was.
Q. Do you remember any of them?
A. 'The names?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.  Piedro---
THE COURT. [To the stenographer.] After you get the spelling of these names, if you will repeat the spelling.
THE WITNESS.  Gandnfo.
Q. Do you know how that name is pronounced?  A. [Witness pronounces name.]
Q. Do you remember any other persons there besides Vanzetti and Gandnfo?
A. Yes.
Q. Who else?
A. Oreste Bianci, Carlos Forte, Vincent Colorarossi.
Q. Any other names that occur to you now?  If not, we will pass on.  I am not particularly anxious.  You say twelve or fifteen people?
A. Yes.  There is some other names.  F. Carabelli.
Q. After your discussion there that evening, Mr. Sacco, what was the decision reached, if you know?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  What has this got to do with this case, a meeting in Boston of fifteen men?
MR. MOORE.  We propose to lay the foundation here, your Honor, of the subsequent acts-
THE COURT.  I did not get that.
MR. MOORE. -of the defendant.
THE COURT.  What did you say?
MR. MOORE.  Laying a foundation for the explanation of the subsequent acts of the defendant.
THE COURT.  I think we better come to the subsequent acts first.
MR. MOORE.  Well
THE COURT.  Because there is nothing now before me with reference to the subsequent acts.  You should proceed the same as counsel did with the defendant Vanzetti.
MR. MOORE.  Well, that is the attempt, to follow that same line, your Honor.
THE COURT.  Pardon me, this is not.
MR. MOORE.  Do I understand your Honor sustains the objection to the question?
THE COURT.  At the present time I cannot see how it is competent.
MR. MOORE.  I will state it is competent upon this ground: the defendant offers to prove at this time that upon April 25th a discussion was had with reference to what was to be done on behalf of one Salsedo and one Elia in New York; that in furtherance of that discussion there, it was agreed to send Mr. Vanzetti to New York; that Mr. Vanzetti went; that in New York he secured certain information relative to the danger, as they conceived it--
THE COURT.  Did this defendant go?
MR. MOORE.  No, your Honor, but this defendant participated in this discussion of April 25th.
THE COURT.  Until we come to the place where, in my judgment, it is competent, I will exclude it.
MR. MOORE.  The only possible reason is that in due order of procedure of proof the history of these events.
THE COURT.  The order of proof would be when the time comes that the witness says that those things had some operative effect upon his mind in causing him to do what he did do.  Up to that time it is purely hearsay.  It is not relevant to any issue here involved, so far as what happens on April 15th.  It may have had some operative effect upon his mind.  It may have influenced him in doing what he did do, but until he says so it is incompetent and purely hearsay.
MR. MOORE.  As to what he did on May 5th, your Honor.
THE COURT.  I will exclude it at the present time.
Q. Did you attend another meeting at a later date, Mr. Sacco?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where at?
A. The 2nd of May, the same place.
Q. The same place?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember who was present then?
A. Yes.
Q. How many people?
A. Well, Mr. Moore, I can't say how many people there are because there is a different group all together.  They got two pool room on the other side.  They go and come in, they go back again.  Can't tell how many there are.
Q. You mean this place is in the nature of a public club?  Is that what you mean?
A. Yes.  They play.  A different club in one hall.
Q. Men coming and going into the rooms most all the time?
A. Yes, they playing over there, they smoke and they walk, and you can't exactly say how many there were.  Sometimes fifty, but you can't know it.
Q. On the meeting of May 2d, was Mr. Vanzetti present?
A. Sure.
Q. Did you hear him at that time make any statement of where he had been and what he had done, since you last saw him?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
MR. KATZMANN.  I object.
THE COURT.  Excluded.  Mr. Vanzetti was allowed to testify as to what certain things had an operative effect upon his mind.  In other words, with reference to the automobile trip, why he went that night to the automobile, why he later intended to go to Plymouth, why he told stories that were not true to the officers.  He gave us his reason why he did those things.  That I allowed.  In my judgment it was competent.  We have not reached that state with this witness yet.  It does not appear here that he ever told any stories that were not true.  It does not appear that he said that he was on this automobile trip.  It does not appear that he had that object in view at all that Vanzetti said he had, and until it does so appear I cannot admit the testimony because it is purely hearsay; but if a person acts on something which may be hearsay, he has a right to state what that was that influenced him and had an operative effect upon his mind.  That is the reason why I admitted it in Vanzetti's case.  This witness has not reached that state yet.
Q. Mr. Sacco, had you seen Mr. Vanzetti between April 25th and May 2d?
A. Yes.
Q. You had seen him between those dates?
A. No.
Q. You had not seen him?
A. No, no.
Q. Did you see him at any place other than the meeting of the night of May 2nd?  Did you see him at any other time that day except at the meeting at Maverick Hall?
A. No, sir.
Q. When did you see him again?
A. May 3d.
Q. Where at?
A. Over to my house.
Q. What hour?
A. I was in the factory all the morning.  I came back from the factory about twelve o'clock, so he was already over to the house.
Q. What was the agreement or decision reached on the night of May 2nd with reference to what you and Vanzetti would do, and others?
MR. KATZMANN.  I object.
THE COURT.  How is that anything more than self-serving?
MR. MOORE.  Your Honor, the Government put in proof as to what the defendant was doing on the night of May 5th.  Now, in order, to adequately explain that conduct of the night of May 5th, the preceding conditions must be explained.
THE COURT.  You asked what the final decision was.
MR. MOORE.  What is that, your Honor?
THE COURT.  You asked what the final decision was.
MR. MOORE.  Your Honor has excluded the intervening steps.  If we are excluded from the intervening steps and excluded from the final.
THE COURT.  Tell me what you want to show by this conversation?  Perhaps the Commonwealth will admit it.
MR. MOORE.  In the first instance I ask leave to have Sacco state what Vanzetti had said upon the return from New York on May 2d.
THE COURT.  What do you expect that the answer will be to that question ?
MR. MOORE.  That report in the first instance upon the status of Salsedo and Elia matter.  In the second instance, that the reports were
THE COURT.  At the present time I will exclude that.
MR. MOORE.  You mean the first statement, or the one I am about to make.
THE COURT.  The first statement.
MR. MOORE.  Yes.
THE COURT.  Now, the next.
MR. MOORE.  That Mr. Vanzetti stated, in substance, that he had received information in New York and that in connection with the so-called "Mayday" difficulties, that there was a danger of the arrest of a number of persons of the same general type of Social opinions as themselves, and that literature which they had in their possession should be destroyed, gotten rid of, hidden, taken care of in some way that they might deem most advisable after discussion and consideration.
THE COURT.  Suppose those things had no operative effect upon his mind, how is it anything but hearsay testimony?
MR. MOORE.  Suppose they had no
THE COURT.  Yes.
MR. MOORE.  Well, it is to be the question for the jury to decide whether or not it had.
THE COURT.  It is for you to wait until you get there before that evidence is admitted. In other words, there is no evidence at all from the witness-and we are to be governed by what he says-as to whether it had any operative effect or not upon his mind in causing him to do what he did or which restrained him from doing certain things.  It is for him to say.
MR. MOORE.  Well, it is to be presumed, your Honor, that counsel in offering testimony offer it in good faith and with the belief firmly fixed in their mind that there is a reason for it.  Now, if your Honor demands, I will plunge immediately into May 5th and work backward.  I would rather start at the bottom and work up.
THE COURT.  I think that you should show by the witness himself the reasons why he did what lie did, the reasons that actuated him in doing what he did, the things that operated upon his mind in causing him to do what he did.  He is the one to testify as to that.  Nobody else can, and he must first testify that it did have some operative effect upon his mind.  There is no such testimony at the present time.
Q. Mr. Sacco, in your conduct, was your conduct of May 5th, what you were doing on the night of May the 5th, based upon information that you had received during the preceding week?
MR. KATZMANN.  To that question I object.
THE COURT.  Let me make a suggestion.  The same as Mr. McAnarney did, take what the witness did on the various dates; and if he went up to the Johnson house, and all about it, and going wherever he intended to go after that.  Prove everything that he did do.  Then ask him, if you desire.
MR. -MOORE.  I will, with all due respect to the Court.  May I ask whether your Honor is now ruling that this question that is now pending is objectionable?
THE COURT.  At the present time it seems to me it is objectionable.
MR. MOORE.  Then, with due respect to the Court, I ask leave to reserve an exception, and will then follow the Court's suggestion.
THE COURT.  Very well.
Q. Mr. Sacco, on the night of the day of May 5th, who was present in your home that night?
A. You mean in the night or in the morning.
Q. Well, during the day of May 5th?
A. Me and Vanzetti in the morning, and all day.
Q. He was there all that day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had he been there any preceding day that week other than May 5th?
A. The day before.
Q. He came there on the 3d of May?
A. Yes.
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
THE COURT. reading.
MR. MOORE.  The 3d of May.
Q. Was he there all day the 3d of May?
MR. KATZMANN.  Now, one moment, if your Honor please.  I object.  It is leading; and in the -next place, it is a misstatement of what the witness said.  It is not May 3d.  It is May 4th.  That is the day before May 5th, and not May 3d, and he has not said he was there.  I think my brother should not lead him.
Q. Mr. Sacco, was Mr. Vanzetti at your home on May 3d?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What hour did he come there?
A. I wasn't home that day, but I think he got home before twelve.
Q. Where was he when you got there?
A. Oh, the house.
Q. How long did he remain at your house?
A. Until May 5th.
Q. Were you and he home all day the remainder of May 3d from the time you got there from work, the balance of that day?
A. In the afternoon, yes.
Q. Where were you on May 4th?
A. I went in Boston.
Q. What for?
A. To get my passports.
Q. Did you obtain them?  Did you get your passport?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you left your home was Mr. Vanzetti there or not?
A. Sure, he was home.
Q. Was he there when you returned or not?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any one else in your house that day?  A. May 4th?
Q. Yes.
A. No, sir, except Vanzetti and my wife.
Q. When you came home from Boston, how did you come that day?
A. By train.
Q. Where did you go, direct to Stoughton?
A. No. When I go to Boston I got a train.  When I come back I went the Elevated.
Q. Where did you go when you came back on the Elevated?
A. When I came back on the Elevated, I went to see Orcciani.
Q. Where at?
A. At Hyde Park, I think, between Hyde Park and Readville.
Q. Did you see him?
A. Yes.  He was come down to the work.  I met him on the road.
Q. Where on the road did you meet him, if you know?
A. They call it River Street, I think so.
Q. What then happened?  What did you then do when you met him?
A. Well, I told him—
MR. KATZMANN. One moment, one moment.
Q. Not what you told him, but what did you do?
A. I showed him my passport.
Q. Then what did you do?  A. I ask-
MR. KATZMANN. One moment.  I object.
Q. Not what you asked.  What did you do?  Where did you go?
A. In his house.
Q. Where?
A. With me to his house.
Q. To his house?
A. Yes.
Q. How long were you there?
A. I should say pretty near an hour.
Q. Then where did you go?
A. Over to my house.
Q. Do you remember approximately or about what hour you got home?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time?
A. Pretty near seven o'clock.
Q. Who was with you?
A. Orcciani.
Q. How did you come there?
A. On a motorcycle.
Q. Was it at that time that you introduced Mr. Kelley to Mr. Orcciani, as has been referred to?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then what occurred that evening in your home, if anything?  Was Orcciani there? A. Sure.
Q. When did you next see him?  Was any one else there that day, except Orcciani and yourself?
A. And Vanzetti.
Q. And Vanzetti.  Is that all?
A. That is all.
THE COURT. We will take our afternoon recess now.
[Short recess.]
Q. Now, Mr. Sacco, going back for the minute, when did you quit work for Mr. Kelley, the 3-K Shoe Company?
A. The 1st of May.
Q. The 1st of May?  A. Yes, I worked the 1st of May half a day.  The shop worked a half day on Saturday.
Q. Were you over there at the factory on May 3d?
A. Yes, in the morning.
Q. What doing?
A. Well, I ain't sure if he had a man in the shop already.
MR. KATZMANN.  I object, if your Honor please.
Q. Were you over there that morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you do any work there that day?
A. No, sir.
Q. How long were you there?  About what hour did you leave?
A. I remained all morning in the factory to speak with friends.  I took my tools, my overalls, my jumper.  I went home about twelve o'clock and remained.
Q. Now, on May 5th, were you home all of that day?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was present at your house?
A. Mr. Vanzetti.
Q. Did any one else come in later?
A. Yes.
Q. If so, when, what hour?
A. I should say about half past four.
Q. Half past four that afternoon?
A. Yes.
Q. Who?
A. Orcciani and Boda.
Q. How long had you known Mr. Orcciani?
A. I know Orcciani for seven years, seven years anyway.
Q. Where had you met him, if you know?
A. Milford.
Q. He lived there when you lived there?
A. Yes.
Q. Where had you last seen Orcciani previous to May 5th, or May 4th, I should say?  You saw him on May 5th, you already stated.  You saw him on the day before, May 4th.  Now, when before did that date had you seen him?
A. May 2d.
Q. Where at?
A. In East Boston, in the hall.
Q. What doing, or, what was he there for, if you know?
A. I do not know what he was over there for.
Q. Where did you see him at East Boston on May 2d?
A. Yes, I saw him in the hall.  I spoke with him.
Q. About what?
MR. KATZMANN.  I object.
THE COURT.  Ask him if he had some conversation about some subject.
MR. MOORE.  I have to go into that later, in view of your Honor's ruling.  The subject matter of that was pertinent to subsequent developments.
Q. On the evening or afternoon of May 5th or when you say that Boda was there--
A. Yes.
Q. That is Michael Boda that has been referred to.  How long had you known him?
A. I should say about three years before I got arrested.
Q. Where had you met him, if you know?
A. I think I did meet him the first time in Boston, on Richmond Street.  They used to have a Socialist hall once before the war.  That is where I met.  Some friends make me shake hands with him.  I guess that is the first time I suppose I met him there.
Q. When had you seen Boda before this date of May 5th when he came to your house?  A. Before?
Q. Yes.
A. May 5th?
Q. How long had it been since you had seen him personally?
A. I think I saw him to a picnic,--Brockton picnic, if I don't make no mistake.I am not sure, but I think I did see him.
Q. When was that?
A. I think in the fall.  I don't remember exactly,--sometime in the fall, anyway.
Q. Of what year?
A. 1919.
Q. Now, on the afternoon or evening of May 5th, what was the occasion, if you know, for Orcciani and Boda being at your house?
A. Yes.
Q. What was it?
A. We are to go and get the automobile.
Q. What?
A. To get the automobile, to get the automobile.
Q. To get whose automobile?
A. Boda's automobile.
Q. Had you ever seen this automobile before, or did you see it that night?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever seen it?
A. No.
Q. What did you want the automobile for, if you know?
A. Sure.
Q. What for?  What was the purpose?
A. Well, we are to get the books.
Q. What?
A. The prints of those out of the houses of the friends.
MR. KATZMANN.  Louder, please.
THE WITNESS.  We decided in the meeting in Boston to get those books and papers, because in New York there was somebody said they were trying to arrest all the Socialists and the Radicals and we were afraid to get all the people arrested, so we were advised by some friends and we find out and Vanzetti take the responsibility to go over to the friends to get the books out and get in no trouble.  The literature, I mean, the Socialist literature.
Q. What hour did you leave Your house?
A. May 5th? Twenty minutes past seven.
Q.  Had you had dinner at the house before you left?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did you go?  Where did you go first?
A. By car.
Q. Where to?
A. To Brockton.
Q. Who?
A. Me and Vanzetti.
Q.  How did Orcciani and Boda go, if you know?
A. I think they went on the motorcycle, but they went afterwards, I suppose.
Q. That was the understanding, at any rate?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you and Vanzetti go?  What did you do?
A. We took a car in front of my house.  The car go by twenty past the hour, or quarter, well, twenty minutes past, twenty minutes of, so we got the car twenty minutes past seven.  We rode to Brockton.  On a car we have conversation, me and him.  We talk about preparing a meeting, a speech at Brockton, because I have been writing to Vanzetti.
MR. KATZMANN.  I object.
THE WITNESS.  So I told Vanzetti
MR. KATZMANN.  I ask it be stricken out.
THE WITNESS.  So I told Vanzetti
MR. KATZMANN.  I object.
THE COURT.  When he objects you must wait.
MR. MOORE.  Well, what?
THE COURT.  Do you consent to that being stricken out?
MR. MOORE.  I had in mind, your Honor, what this man said, or what this man did, as part of the-
THE COURT.  Well, they are two things, what a man said and what he did.  Mr. Katzmann, as I got it, objected to the conversation as hearsay.
What he did--
MR. MOORE.  I am not at all insistent upon the conversation.  As a matter of fact, I do not care whether it goes in or not.  I won't insist on it.
THE COURT.  What he did is perfectly competent.  The conversation may be stricken out.  What he did may remain.
Q. What did you do on arrival at Brockton?
 A. We got off the car at Brockton on Main Street, to get the Bridgewater car.
Q. What did you do in Brockton?
A. So we lost the car.
Q. What?
A. We lost the car for Bridgewater.  Probably we were too late by a couple of minutes late.
Q. Then what did you do while you waited?
A. We walked to School Street in Brockton and Vanzetti want to buy some cigars.  He went in Italian stores,-a fruit store.  He buy a couple of cigars there, so then we left there after a minute.  We went in the lunch cart.  We took coffee.  After coffee, we went out.  We take a walk.
Q. Now, did you do anything?
THE COURT.  You take what, a walk?
THE WITNESS.  A walk.
Q. Go ahead.
A. Then we lost the car, and I asked a man who was standing over there if he could give information of the electric car, so I asked, I says--
Q. What did you do in the cigar store?
A. When we took in the lunch cart, I mean the coffee, Vanzetti was write, copying, was write a manifest, a bill, handbill for the conference.
Q. What kind of handbill, for what purpose?
A. For the conference.
Q. What do you mean by a "conference," Mr. Sacco?
A. Call the people to hear a conference.
Q. You mean a meeting?
A. A meeting, yes.
Q. To be held when?
A. I do not remember the day exactly, but I know the hall was already hired by a friend from Brockton.  It was Clark Hall.  I do not know if it was on the 9th or 10th.  I forget.
Q. What day of the week was it to be?
A. I think it was on Sunday, if I don't be mistaken.
Q. In Brockton?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know what location that hall is?
A. Yes, I have been there before.
Q. Where is it?
A. I do not know the name of the street, but I know Clark Hall very well.
Q. After Vanzetti had written this handbill, what was done then?
A. Well, after that go out of the lunch cart.  We took a walk by Bridgewater, going to Bridgewater.
Q. What became of the handbill?  What was done with the handbill?
A. It was still corrected.
Q. Who had the handbill?
A. When he finished, I took and put in my pocket.
Q. Why did you take it?
MR. KATZMANN.  I object.
THE COURT.  He may answer.
A. Because I was responsible for getting that printed.  I took the responsibility of that printing.
Q. You mean,--what do you mean by that?
A. Take the bill and put it, well, go to some printer.
Q. You would have it printed.  Is that what you mean?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, where did you go on the street car?  You took a car to Bridgewater, did you?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you get off that car?
A. We got off at Elm Square.
Q. How do you know you got off at Elm Square?
A. Well, Mr. Moore, I do not know if T. did.  I ask anyway a man in the car, but I am sure after I got off the car I saw the sign over there on the post.  I do not know whether it is on the right side or the left side, but there was, say, "Elm Square," and some other road for-I don't know where they call the other for Bridgewater, but I sure remember I read Elm Square.
Q. When you got off the car, where did you go?
A. We remained there for a couple of minutes, three or four minutes.
Q. What did you do then?
A. We did walking, up the car track, going to Bridgewater.
Q. Had you been down there at that point before?
A. No, sir.
Q. When you got off the car, which direction did you go, do you know, first?
A. To Bridgewater the first time we stopped there.
Q. Well, why did you go that way?  A. Well, we thought we could meet the friends by that road.
Q. Then how far did you go?
 A. We walked, I should say, about ten or fifteen minutes.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. I think we reach the Square over there, some Square there.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. Then we go back again.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. Elm Square again.
Q. What did you do on reaching Elm Square again?
A. If I am not sure we remained there for a couple of minutes again, but I think we did.  I think Vanzetti done something or other.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. I sit down, I wait for him.  We go by Brockton.  We did not see anybody there.  We were surprised.  What is the way to go?  Then we mind to go by Brockton.
Q. How far did you go that way?
A. I should say we five or seven minutes, ten, I don't know.
Q. Then what happened?
A. I saw the light.
Q. Of what?
A. Motorcycle.
Q. What did you do when you saw the lights of the motorcycle?
A. Well, we passed the bridge.  I went in near the car to see who it was, to find out.
Q. To see what?
A. Who is near the car.  I crossed the road.  I went near the car to find out who it was standing near the car, so I see Orcciani and I speak with him.  I said--
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
THE WITNESS.  "Boda get the car?"
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
THE COURT. [To Mr. Moore.] Do you claim that is competent?
MR. MOORE.  Yes.  It is already in the record as to what conversation was had there.
THE COURT.  What say?
MR. MOORE.  There is already testimony, your Honor, as to what conversation was had there.
THE COURT.  I know, but that was because it was brought out in cross-examination, was it not?
MR. MOORE.  Partly.  Not entirely, I think, your Honor.
THE COURT.  What part?
MR. MOORE.  Are you referring now to our cross-examination of the Johnsons?
THE COURT.  Your cross-examination of Mr. Johnson.  Any evidence that you have which tends to contradict either of the witnesses, which, of course, would include Vanzetti, you may have a right to do that, but why isn't the rest of it hearsay and self-serving statements?
MR. MOORE.  Any statement or anything that occurred there is introduced by the Government under the theory that what did take place is indicative of a subsequent action, is indicative of consciousness of guilt.  Now, in order to explain what did take place there and subsequent acts and to answer the theory of consciousness of guilt, I take it that the entire transaction is open and we may rebut the presumption of consciousness of guilt by showing what did actually take place.
THE COURT.  On that theory, perhaps the District Attorney will agree, because it is on that theory you open up all the conversation that took place which will, of course, give the Johnsons a right to testify as to what each party said who was there.  In other words, do you not claim with the conversation of one who was there, at least one of the four men, that conversation with all may be equally competent?
MR. MOORE.  The conversation has already been admitted, your Honor, between Johnson and Boda on the theory it was overheard or in the presence of the remaining two men.
THE COURT.  I do not remember any conversation that went in with Boda, excepting that conversation that was brought out by the result of a cross-examination of Mr. Johnson, and as I recall that, that was a question as to, in substance, what was said,-that as the result of what was said between Mr. Johnson and Boda in regard to the number plate the automobile was not taken.  I think that was admitted on the theory of the conversation brought out by counsel for the defendant.  If they desire to have all the conversation that took place that night at that time, have you any objection, Mr. District Attorney?
MR. KATZMANN.  Not if we have it all, your Honor.
THE COURT.  It seems to me if we have any part of the conversation, we should have all.
MR. MOORE.  I might suggest to your Honor that just before the adjournment at the noon hour there was a question raised on some conversation that was sought to be introduced through Mr. Johnson.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  May I suggest that was two or three weeks later.  That was not this occasion.  Some other time than this.
MR. KATZMANN.  It was not two or three weeks.  I sought to introduce evidence of what Mike Boda said to Mr. Johnson on Friday, April 30th.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  It was some other time than this time.
MR. KATZMANN.  If we are going to have the conversation, I submit we have it all.
THE COURT.  If, of course, he opened up something on May 5th, you would have aright only to have all the rest of the conversation that took place on May 5th.
MR. MOORE.  Yes, sir.
THE COURT.  That would not give you a right to open up what was said on some other separate and distinct date and occasion, if that be true, even though Mr. Katzmann may have opened up a conversation on April 30th.
MR. KATZMANN.  No, I was not permitted to, if your Honor please.  I asked the question and it was objected to.
THE COURT.  That is my recollection.
MR. KATZMANN.  And ruled out.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I was simply informing Mr. Moore as to what took place at the bench, to wit, that that conversation was,--I thought he was laboring under a wrong impression.
MR. MOORE.  The conversation he attempted to put in this morning was ruled out.
THE COURT. That is my recollection.
MR. MOORE.  Yes.
Q. Mr. Sacco, You came up to see who was driving that motorcycle.  Is that your statement?
A. Yes.
Q. Who did you see standing at the car?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.  One moment.  I object to the form of the question.
THE COURT.  It is the same thing.  It does not appear he saw, perhaps, anybody
 .  Did you see anybody there at the car?
THE WITNESS.  Yes.
THE COURT.  Tell the jury whom you saw.  THE WITNESS.  Orcciani.
Q. Who else did you see?
A. I saw Boda near the house, the little house.
Q. Who was with you?
A. Vanzetti.
Q. What did you do there?
A. We remained over there and talked.
Q. Who did you talk with?
A. With Orcciani.
Q. You and Vanzetti?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened after that or while you were there?
A. Between us we have a conversation, me and Vanzetti with Orcciani.  I could see by the door,--Mike Boda was standing on the door, outside.  But I did not see, I could not recognize the other man who was talking.  I could see.  He could not get no car because he have no number, no number plates, so after a little while Boda came back, because Orcciani told us, he says, “I don't know."
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.  One moment.
THE WITNESS.  He came back.  He told us he could not get no car because he had no number plates.
MR. KATZMANN.  I object, if your Honor please.
MR. MOORE.  It has already been stated.
THE COURT.  That may be stricken out.
Q. What happened next?
A. So he said, "Better follow us, go home."
MR. KATZMANN.  I object.
THE COURT.  That question, Mr. Sacco, referred to what was done and not to what was said.  What was done
THE WITNESS.  Then we go home.
THE COURT.  That is responsive.
Q. Did you see any one other than Mr. Vanzetti, Orcciani, Boda and yourself there; at any time while you were there was anybody else there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who?
A. I saw a woman come by from Brockton, coming from the little house, going in that house.
Q. Go in what house?
A. I guess it is her house.  I don't know.  But when I know little house near the bridge, near motorcycle, about fifteen steps from the motorcycle.
MR. KATZMANN. one moment, please.
Q. Do you know?
THE COURT.  The District Attorney keeps objecting.  Now, kindly
MR. MOORE.  He just the minute before said she was coming down t he road.
Q. Do you know where she came from?
A. By Brockton road.
Q. Do you know whether she came from Brockton or not?
A. No, I can't say.  I couldn't say if she came from the house or Brockton, from some other house.  I saw she come, anyway.
Q. Where did you then go?
A. After I went home.  I took a car.  I went home.  I mean, I took a car, me and Vanzetti.  We got arrested in Brockton.
Q. Now, at the time that you were arrested in Brockton on the street car, did you or Vanzetti, either one of you, reach for or attempt to get a hold of any weapon, any gun?  A. No, sir.
Q. What?
A. No, sir.
Q. You were taken to the Brockton police station, were you?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you questioned there that night?
A. When they arrested us?  No, sir.  They just asked,--I saw the police come in the car.  He walked,--he asked him to keep face,-he says, "You fellows coming from Bridgewater?" The fellows say, "No." So he come about a couple of steps, because we were behind the car.
MR. MOORE.  I Will ask that be stricken out.
Q. Were you questioned at the Brockton police station that night?
A. By police?
Q. Yes.  A. Sure.
Q. Who questioned you?  A. They asked us where we been.
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
Q. Who questioned you?  Who asked you the question?  Who was the person present when questions were put to you?
A. First time we got arrested?
Q. Yes.  No, at the Brockton police station; not when you were on
the car, but in the station.
A. You mean after they bring us in the cell?
Q. Yes.
A. After we come out of the cell who questioned us?
Q. Yes, that is right.
A. I think it is Mr.,--I forget the name,
Q. I think we can agree it is this gentleman sitting over here, Mr. Stewart.
A. Yes, sir.  Mr. Stewart.  A couple of other fellows with him.  I do not remember who they were.
Q. All police officers?
A. Well, no, sir.  They was dressed up the way they are now.  Not police officers,--in a room.
Q. Going back for the minute, Mr. Sacco, as you left the Johnson house going walking down the car line--
A. Yes.
Q. --did you speak to some one?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was that, if you know?
A. A woman.
Q. Do you know her name?
A. No.
Q. What did you say to her?
A. I  asked where we could get,--where was, how far was the stop to where we could get the car.  She said, "The white post, right here." She says, "The one is very far away," she says.  So we see the car coming.  I told her how we better wait, because--
MR. KATZMANN.  I ask it be stricken out.
THE COURT.  It may be.
Q. Now, is that the point where you took the car?
A. Yes.
Q. In other words, you took the car right near the point where you spoke to the lady? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had you ever taken any car there on any previous occasion?
A. Before or after, before when?
Q. Before the night of May 5th?
A. No.
Q. You have heard the testimony of a witness, Mr. Cole, here, to the effect that on April 15th, or April 14th-he is not certain-he had seen you taking a car at this point?  Had you ever taken a car at that point or any point along that line on any previous occasion?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment, if your Honor please.  Is this a question or argument?
MR. MOORE.  It is a question.
MR. KATZMANN.  Then I object to it.
MR. MOORE.  Intended to meet the issue of the Government's case.
THE COURT.  Repeat the question.
[The question is read.]
THE COURT.  The difficulty is does that contradict Mr. Cole?
MR. MOORE.  It does not, you say, your Honor?
THE COURT.  I say, does it?  As I recall it, Mr. Cole named the place, did he not?
MR. MOORE.  Yes.
THE COURT.  Wasn't there such a place as Sunset Avenue?
MR. MOORE.  Yes, the same place.
THE COURT.  Now, as I recall it, Mr. Cole testified that the two defendants took the car at that place.
MR. MOORE.  Yes.
THE COURT.  That is right, isn't it?
MR. MOORE.  The testimony of Mr. Cole is that on the night of May
5th they took the car at Sunset Avenue.
THE COURT.  Yes, exactly.
MR. MOORE.  And that on the night of April 14th or 15th, they had taken the car at the same point.
THE COURT.  All right.  Now, you may ask him if on either one of those dates he took a car at what is known as Sunset Avenue.  You say that is the--
MR. MOORE.  I had to identify it by "point," your Honor, for him, because I do not think he knows where Sunset Avenue is, except from hearsay since his arrest.
THE COURT.  The difficulty is, if you have it in that form you do not contradict.
MR. MOORE.  Well, except this way: that Mr. Cole said that he took him at a certain point on the night of May 5th that he called Sunset Avenue.  Mr. Cole also says he took him at the same point on the night of April 14th or 15th.  Now, Mr. Cole has identified him.
THE COURT.  Ask him if he took on either one of those dates a car anywhere near this particular location.  That will cover it.
Q. Mr. Sacco, had you on April 14th or 15th or any date taken a car anywhere near or about this point?
A. No, sir.
Q. Had you ever at any time previous to this occasion of May 5th been down to the garage at Elm Square or to Elm Square or to the Johnson house?
A. No, sir.
THE COURT.  Hadn't you better separate those questions?  That leaves the matter open.  You say "the garage." He might so answer, "No, I never was at the garage."
MR. MOORE.  All right.
THE COURT.  He might answer that, "No, but he had been at Elm Square." I suggest you separate those questions.
Q. Had you ever been at the garage before?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or at Elm Square before?
A. I been at Elm Square the 5th of May.  I been in the Square on the 5th of May.
Q. On the 5th of May?
A. Yes.
Q. But had you ever been there on any previous occasion before that ?
A. No, sir.
Q. Had you ever been to the Johnson house before that?
A. No.
Q. Had you ever come in contact in any way-
A. No, sir.
Q. Or know who the Johnsons were previous to your arrest?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, Mr. Sacco on the night of your arrest and your questioning by Chief Stewart, were you asked by the chief any questions relative to where you were or what you were doing on April 15, 1920?
A. If he did ask me that?  Not that I remember.  He asked me where I was, where I had been in the night.
Q. Where you had been the night of May 5th?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he ask you any questions with reference to where you were on the night or the day any time of April 15th, 1920?
A. Not that I remember.
Q. Was anything said to you that night?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me put the question before you answer.  Was there anything said to you that night at all about the South Braintree murder?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, was the particular date of April 15th pointed out to you that night?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you questioned about it---
A. No, sir.
Q. -by Chief Stewart?
A. No, sir.
Q. What did you think you were arrested for that night?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
THE COURT.  I think that is competent on this theory: you claim that the attempt to draw a revolver is evidence of consciousness of guilt.  Now, what will the jury say about that?  And that being true, I think the witness has a right to explain what he supposed at that time he was being arrested for, because the nature of the charge, the character of the crime may have more or less important bearing in a matter of this kind.  In other words, would a man be likely, on the matter of violating the automobile laws to do anything of the kind?  And he has a right to express what his view was at that time as meeting what you may claim, under the law, is evidence of consciousness of guilt.
MR. KATZMANN.  My objection anticipated that, if your Honor please.  The question was too broad for that.  If it were confined to the moment of his arrest, of course it is admissible.
THE COURT.  It is so near it.  He left the electric car and was then in the police station. The same thing, if he had any opinion it would probably apply to one act as well as the other.  In other words, it meets what you may argue that, under the law, the act itself would indicate the commission of a grave offense.  Now, he has got a right to show he had no such knowledge of what he was arrested for at that time.  He may answer.
[The question is read.]
THE WITNESS.  I don't know myself.  I been hear so many times they say, "You know, you know," that is all.
Q. Did he indicate at all the character of the crime you were arrested for?
A. No, sir.
MR. KATZMANN.  Who is "he"?
Q. Did Chief Stewart say what kind of a crime you were arrested for?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did he fix any date as,--well, I will withdraw that.  Did you think that you were arrested for something that you were doing that night?
MR. KATZMANN.  I object to that question.
THE COURT.  That is leading.
MR. MOORE.  All right.
Q. What did you think was the time when the crime that you were arrested for had been committed?
A. I never think anything else than Radical.
Q. What?
A. To the Radical arrest, you know, the way they do in New York, the way they arrest so many people there.
Q. What made you think that?
A. Because I was not registered, and I was working for the movement for the working class, for the laboring class.
Q. Was there anything Chief Stewart said to you that made you think that?
A. Yes.  He did ask me if I was a Socialist.  I did say, "Yes."
Q. Did he ask you any other questions?
A. He asked me why I was in Bridgewater, what for.  I say, "I give him company, Mr. Vanzetti, because he want to see a friend in Bridgewater, some name by Pappi, but I don't know him."
Q. When he asked you what you were in Bridgewater for, did you give a true reason for being there?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not?
A. Because I was afraid to arrest us, they arrest somebody else of the people, find out after--
MR.  KATZMANN.  May I have that answer?
[The answer is read.]
THE COURT.  Is that a very clear answer, what the witness said?
MR.  MOORE.  That is really not a clear answer.
THE COURT.  I think you should give him an opportunity to explain what he means there.
Q. What did you mean by that last answer of yours, Mr. Sacco?
A. Well, just this: I know some,--the most of the friends, Socialists, why, they are slackers.  They got literature in the house.  They got papers and everything,--Socialist movement.  That is why I was afraid they would do the same way as in New York and in Chicago.
[The last part of the answer is read.]
Q. Did you give Chief Stewart a correct statement that night of your reasons for being there?
MR.  KATZMANN.  Now, one moment, if your Honor please.  If my brother is going to put in what he said to Stewart, I submit there is only one way.  "What did he say to Stewart?" He is not entitled to pick out such questions as he desires in the conversation.
THE COURT.  Let me hear that question.  It may be he is entitled to it if it goes to some question that directly contradicts some testimony of Chief Stewart.
[The question is read.]
THE COURT.  That does not contradict anything that has been said.
MR.  MOORE.  I am not attempting to at this time.
THE COURT.  Why cross-examine your own witness, that he gave untruthful statements?
Q. Did you give true and correct statements of your reasons for being at Bridgewater?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall the reasons you did give?
A. Yes.  Will I give it?
Q. You, I believe, have stated that you told him you went there to see Pappi with Vanzetti?
A. Yes.
Q. You actually went there to get an automobile?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Sacco, that night, following that conversation of that night, the following day you had a conversation with Mr. Katzmann.  Is that correct?
A. The night after.
Q. May 6th?
A. Yes.
Q. In the course of that conversation with Mr. Katzmann, were you told at any time during that conversation that you were being held as principal or as connected with the South Braintree murder and robbery?
A. No, sir.
Q. During the entire conversation was there a stenographer present, as you recollect it?
A. I should say yes.
Q. Mr. Katzmann came in with a stenographer, did he?
A. No.  I find him in with the stenographer.
Q. You were brought in to him?
A. Yes.
Q. Any one else present in addition to Mr. Katzmann and the stenographer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know who?
A. It was a big man like, bigger than Mr. Katzmann.
Q. You were not introduced to any of these people?
A. No, no.  It was an interpreter.
Q. An interpreter?
A. Yes, an Italian interpreter.
Q. Were all the questions and answers taken through an interpreter, or was it direct, without an interpreter?
A. Well, sometimes I could not answer and the interpreter explained.
Q. Most of it is direct without an interpreter?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you told that you were charged with any crime?
A. No, sir.
Q. To the best of your knowledge, had you been charged with any crime?
A. No, sir.
Q. How long did this conversation last as you best remember, your best estimate of the time?
A. I should say about more than one hour.  I could not remember, but I think it was more than one hour.
Q. And during this entire period of time, nothing was said with reference to any particular crime committed at any particular place?
A. No, sir.
Q. What did you think you were being held for, then, by Mr. Katzmann?
A. I did not know, I did not know myself.
Q. Now, go back for the minute.  You had a gun, a revolver, rather, at the time of your arrest?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.  You are really assuming Mr.,--of course, you are assuming right.
MR. MOORE.  I am attempting to shorten it.  That is all.
MR. KATZMANN.  That is all right.
Q. Did you have a revolver at the time of your arrest.
THE COURT.  Was it a revolver or pistol?  I remember there was a lot of talk about whether it was a revolver or a pistol.  As I recall it, the experts call it a pistol, do they not?
MR. MOORE.  To be perfectly frank, your Honor, in the section where, theoretically, at least, we have some knowledge of those weapons, we would ordinarily, I think I am correct in saying it call it a revolver.  I think we understand the language that is used.
THE COURT.  I think the experts called one--and that was the weapon found upon Vanzetti--as a revolver; and the one found upon the defendant Sacco was an automatic pistol.
MR. MOORE.  Yes, I think that is correct.
THE COURT.  If you just substitute the word "pistol" for "revolver" then you will come within the testimony.
MR. MOORE.  Before taking that matter up, however, I will withdraw that question for the minute.
Q. Now, Mr. Sacco, on the night of May 5th, you went to the,--with Boda, Orcciani and Vanzetti, to the Johnson house.  Why, for what purpose and reason?
A. To get the automobile.
Q. Why did you want an automobile?
A. To get the literature.
Q. When had you decided to get the literature?
A. I could not say, because I was just in his company that night.  I was to go back to the old country.
MR. KATZMANN.  I ask it be stricken out.
MR. MOORE.  Strike it out.
Q. When had you decided to get this literature?  What date had you decided to get it? A. I suppose they will get it if they have a chance; the same night, some house.
Q. On what previous occasion, when before this time, before May 5th, had you decided to get it?
A. Oh, May 4th.
Q. Had there been any discussion about it on any previous time before May 4th?
A. No. Yes; May 2d.
Q. Where at?
A. In Maverick Square, up to the hall, East Boston.
Q. Now, who was present at that time?
THE COURT.  What was the date?
MR. MOORE.  May 2d.
A. Me,--I, Mr. Vanzetti, Orcciani, Colorarossi, Orestes Bianci, Sairingi.
THE COURT.  Is that the same meeting about which we already inquired?
MR. MOORE.  I was just going to ask him if all the names he previously mentioned were there.  That is what I was going to ask him.
Q. In addition to all the names you have mentioned, Mr. Sacco, was all the persons you have heretofore mentioned in your testimony present at this meeting of May 2d or part of them?
A. Yes, they were present.
Q. Was Vanzetti there?
A. Sure.
Q. What did he say to this meeting?
A.  He is the one who report from New York.
Q. What did he say he had done and had to report from New York?
A. Well, he says, "New York says it is pretty kind of dangerous for Radical," so he went over to find out about the money for Salsedo, who is receiving the money.
THE COURT.  Who is what?
THE WITNESS.  Receiving money.
THE COURT.  Receiving money?
THE WITNESS.  Yes.  To defend Salsedo and Elia.
Q. Did he say what Salsedo and Elia were being held for?
MR. KATZMANN.  Now, one moment, if your Honor please.  You lead this witness, Mr. Moore.
MR. MOORE.  Now, may I make an offer, your Honor, in order that I may bring clearly home--
THE COURT.  Why don't you put a proper question, not put a leading question?  That is the objection.
Q. Did he state to you what they were charged with?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.  Does your Honor rule that question is--
THE COURT.  His other question was leading.  Of course, it does not appear now this man in New York was charged with anything.  They may get this in an another way, so it seems to me-- "Did what Vanzetti reported that night at that meeting have any effect upon your mind so far as affecting your conduct in any manner whatsoever?"
THE WITNESS.  Yes.
THE COURT.  "In what respect did it affect your mind?" Now, that gives you the opportunity to fully explain everything that had any influence whatsoever upon your mind, whether it was hearsay or whatever it may be.  Now, go ahead, please.
Q. Now, Mr. Sacco, what did Mr. Vanzetti say about—
THE COURT.  You may answer my question.
[The question of the Court is read as follows:
Q.  Did what Vanzetti reported that night at that meeting have any effect upon your mind so far as affecting your conduct in any manner whatsoever?"]
THE WITNESS.  Yes.
THE COURT.  Now, you may answer.
THE WITNESS.  Vanzetti come into the hall.  He told us we are to get ready and advise our friends, any friend who knows a friend as a Socialist and active in the movement of labor, why, they are advised to get the books and literature to put at some place and hide not to find by the police or the state.  And another thing he says nobody know why they arrest Salsedo and Elia.
THE COURT.  Nobody knows--
THE WITNESS.  Why, for what charge they did arrest Salsedo and Elia and Cammiti, and some of the other fellows before.  So they say after all over in New York, a spy to find out the Radicals and they find out the same, the money, all the friends that been sending from Massachusetts and all over New England, been sending the money for the defending of Salsedo and Elia,--who is the man receiving it, who is the man responsible for those things, so we decided and Vanzetti decided it was same time, the quicker we come and get literature and anything out of the Radicals' house, the Socialists, and to hide it.  That is all he said.  That is why I remembered.  He probably said some more, but I could not remember all the conversation we had, because he been talking an hour, pretty near hour and a half, and I could not remember all he says.
Q. Did you know of various men who had been held and deported by reason of their ideas or opinions?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  We are going a good ways, aren't we, into this matter?  I can't see why now the whole thing is not opened up.  Inasmuch as it has been opened up, I do not feel disposed to cut it short.  You may answer.
[The question is read.]
THE WITNESS.  You mean before that or that time?
Q. Before May 5th?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you in mind any particular persons?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who?
A. Fruzetti, from Bridgewater.
THE COURT.  Who?
THE WITNESS.  Fruzetti.
THE COURT.  How do you spell it?
THE WITNESS.  F-r-u-z-e-t-t-i.
Q. Any other persons?
A. I know another fellow from Bridgewater, but I forget his name, but I am sure another fellow from Bridgewater was deported, and another fellow from Brockton.  He is not deported yet, but he is under deportation.  He is Papetti, call the name Papetti.  There is another name, Mondanari.  I forget the first name.  And I know some other fellows, too, been under deportation in Massachusetts.
Q. Now, Mr. Sacco, what was the decision reached, if any, on May 2d with reference to the taking care of or moving of this literature you have referred to?
A. Taking care?
Q. What decision was reached?  How were you going to do it?
A. Well, I suppose we take
Q. Not what you supposed.  What did you discuss as to method of doing it on May 2d?  A. The best way to take by automobile, could run more fast, could get more fast, could hide more fast.  It could go, and some have a little education, you know, to find where you could put so well some place to hide, see; to learn where nobody could know anything.  That is all.
Q. Who had an automobile?
A. Well, I don't know who had it, because we have been talking about finding somebody who could have it, who could offer himself.
Q. Who did?
A. Well, Orcciani says he knows Boda, he has an automobile.  "I will ask him if he wants to come.  I think he won't refuse to do such work, because he is a Socialist himself.  He is an active Socialist."
MR. KATZMANN.  What is that other word, "this"?
THE WITNESS.  No. "Active Socialist."
Q. When were you to see about whether the car would be usable or "get-atable"?  When were you to find out about the car?
A. Well, we were waiting for the answer.  Orcciani was to get the answer.
Q. Waiting for the answer?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was to get the answer?
A. Orcciani.
Q. Did he deliver the answer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When?
A. May 4th when I go back to Boston I went over to his house.  He told me, so I told him Vanzetti was over to my house, so he came with me together to have a conversation in my house.
Q. Is that the day you went into Boston?
A. Yes.
Q. And got your passport?
A. Yes.
Q. And on your way back out of Boston you stopped and saw Orcciani ?
A. Yes.
Q. Then he drove you home with his motorcycle?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Mr. Sacco, in connection with the conversation with the consul on April 15th, did he show you the form that is attached to the deposition here, a form similar to this and indicate the character of the photograph that would have to go on the passport?
MR. KATZMANN.  I object to that question.
THE COURT.  It is leading.
MR. MOORE.  All right.  withdraw it.
Q. Was anything said by the consul with reference to the size of the photograph that would be used on a passport?
A. You mean the 15th of April?
Q. Yes?
A. Yes.
Q. By the way, Mr. Sacco, there has been introduced in evidence here a cap that is marked Exhibit 29.  Is that your cap?
A. [Witness examines cap.] I never wear black much.  Always a gray cap; always wear gray cap.  Always I like gray cap.
MR. MOORE.  That is not an answer to my question.
MR. KATZMANN.  I ask that answer be stricken out.  The question is, is it your cap, not what color he wears.
THE WITNESS.  No, sir.
THE COURT.  The other answer may be stricken out.
Q. Do you know anything about that cap?
A. No, sir, never saw it.
Q. Did you ever have a cap of any color made in that form with the fur lining?
A. Never in my life.
Q. See if this is your size.
A. [Witness puts cap on head.] The way I look.  Could not go in.  My size is 71/8th.
THE COURT.  Put that on again, please.
[The witness places cap on head again.]
THE COURT.  That is all.
Q. Do you know anything at all about the history of that cap, where it came from or who it belongs to, anything about it?
A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Sacco, Mr. Cole has testified that at the time of the hearing in the Quincy court when he came into the court room, you nodded to him?
A. No, sir.
MR.  KATZMANN.  One moment, Mr. Moore.  You don't mean that question, do you, in the Quincy court?
MR.  MOORE.  Now, to be perfectly frank, I am not positive whether it was Quincy court or Brockton.
MR. KATZMANN.  Brockton.
MR.  MOORE.  All right.
Q. In the Brockton court, did you nod to him?
A. No, sir.
Q. Had you ever seen or come in contact with that man at any time in your life other than the night of the arrest?
A. No, sir, nobody.  I did see that day in Brockton.  I know it.
Q. Mr. Sacco, do you know anything about that cap [indicating] ?
A. That is my cap.
Q. When did you buy that?
A. I buy that sometime last March.
Q. Last March?
A. In 1920.
Q. Did you have another cap that you used, or did you have another cap in addition to that one?
A. Certainly.
Q. What kind of a cap?
A. Just the same.
A little more white, gray.
Q. Of the same general-
A. The same shape.
Q. And the kind of material?
A. Yes, and the same shape.
Q. What became of the cap, the other one, in addition to that, if you know?
A. I did not get that, Mr. Moore.
Q. Do you know where the other hat of yours is?
A. Sure.
Q. Where?
A. The police took from my house.  I heard that by my wife.
Q. You do not know that of personal knowledge?
A. No, no, I did not see it.
Q. Did you have any cap at any time of any material other than the general type of material represented by the one you are holding in your hand?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you get my question?  Did you have any other kind of a cap other than the one you have in your hand?
A. Different to this?  No.
MR. MOORE.  We ask this be marked at this time as defendant's exhibit and make a request also at this time, your Honor, the cap, if any of the Government officers have the cap that we understand was taken in the Sacco home May 6th, or thereabouts, that that-
THE COURT.  Why haven't you asked the District Attorney privately if he has or anybody representing him?
MR. KATZMANN.  No trouble about it, your Honor.  We leave the cap, we have had the witness here all day yesterday, waiting for Sacco to be on the stand.  We do not think he is here today, but we will introduce it before he gets off the stand.
MR. MOORE.  May I ask. also, Mr. Katzmann, if the matter of the memoranda in Italian, have you been able to locate that?
MR. KATZMANN.  No. We looked for it.  You mean that was taken from this defendant the night of his arrest?  We have not.  All I have is the translation I used.
MR. MOORE.  Is the cap here in court?  It is in your room, is it?
MR. KATZMANN.  No. It is in the possession of the officer who took it, whom we had here yesterday for the purpose.
MR. MOORE.  You will have it here sometime tomorrow?
MR. KATZMANN.  Yes.  We would have it here sometime today if we thought we would reach it.
[Cap admitted in evidence and marked "Exhibit O."]
Q. At the time you were in the Brockton police station after your arrest various persons were brought to you, brought into the room where you were, to identify you?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
THE COURT.  Somewhat leading, isn't it?
MR. MOORE.  I am trying to identify the time, what happened at that time.
Q. How many persons in the first instance were brought in, if you know, approximately?
A. If you please let me explain the whole story.
Q. Go ahead.  Tell what happened.
A. The day after, you mean, or the first night we got arrested?
Q. Go ahead.
A. The first night we got arrested they brought us in the cell.
MR. KATZMANN.  Now, speak, please, so we may hear, will you?
THE WITNESS.  Yes.  The first night we got arrested they bring us in the cell.  After a few minutes or fifteen minutes they get at Vanzetti. So Vanzetti, I don't know how long he stood.  He come back after a little while, and they took me, and I went in a room, not quite a large room, but like that square where they are, the jury.  I see Mr. Stewart and a couple of other fellows, police, I suppose.  I don't know.  They asked me something, you know, Socialist, and about why I was in Bridgewater for, and so after that they bring me back.  They took Vanzetti again, too. After Vanzetti, I went up again myself in the room.  I don't see no more Mr. Stewart, but I see somebody else.  It was about six,--four or five or six.  He say one thing I could not answer now.  I say, "See, you fellows won't let me answer.  I don't know what you fellows say." They won't give me any chances to give answer.
MR. KATZMANN.  If your Honor please, of course this man is not entitled to conversations he had with everybody in the room in that police station.  That is what he is proceeding to give under this open question.
THE COURT.  That is not competent.  Anything that tended to attack any police officer who has been called is competent.
Q. Mr. Sacco, was there any person brought in to identify you on the night of May 5th?
MR. KATZMANN.  How could he say, if your Honor please?
A. The night--
THE COURT.  Wait one minute.
MR. MOORE.  I will withdraw that question.
Q. Have you seen any person that has testified in this case, did you see any of those persons on the night of May 5th?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, on May 6th, were people brought into the room where you were?  A. After the court.
Q. After what?
A. The court.  After we come back to court, the court house, to Brockton court house.
Q. That was on May 6th?
A. Yes, we have a photograph.
THE COURT.  What were you taken down to the court house for?
Q. What were you taken to the court house for?
A. I don't know.
Q. Were you taken into court there?
A. Before we took to court I saw a man over there, two men, I do not know for sure if it was two or three.  He was sitting down on a seat on a bench, before we got into court, before we go in front of the Judge.
Q. Did you go in front of any Judge on May 6th?
A. May 6th?  I think I made a mistake.  I guess we went on Saturday or Friday.  No, on Saturday.
Q. You were arrested on Wednesday, May 5th, weren't you?
A. Yes.  We went in court Saturday morning.
Q. On May 6th, were there people brought in who looked you over?
A.  Yes.
Q. Where at?
A. Up to the police station in Brockton.
Q. Where at, at Brockton?
A. Yes, in Brockton police station.
Q. How many people were brought in to look you over that day, if
you know, approximately?
A. Oh, I couldn't say how many there was, Mr. Moore, but I know there was more than thirty, I should say twenty-five or thirty.
Q. Where were those?  You do not know, I suppose, where those people were from?
A. No, sir.
Q. What were you told to do when these people were brought in, and what did you do?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
THE COURT.  By whom?  Supposing somebody did?  It must be somebody who spoke with authority.  It should be some one who was here as a witness.
Q. Were you at that time in custody of police officers?
A. Yes.  The same as myself, same as Mr. Vanzetti.  They bring first him.  After him they bring me.
Q. What room were you in the Brockton police station when these people were brought in to look at you?  A. Quite a large room.
Q. Do you know what room they call it?
A. No, I can't say, but it was a pretty large room, anyway.
Q. Who was in charge?  What officer was there, if you know, in charge of you?
A. It was one of the officers who arrested us.
Q. Officer Connolly, or don't you know?
A. I don't know the name, but I know him, one witness.
Q. One of the witnesses in this case?
A. Yes, kind of skinny and tall.
Q. Officer Gueron?
A. Who?
Q. Officer Gueron?
A. No. I do not know his name, but he comes from Quincy.
Q. Officer Brouillard?
A. Yes.
Q. You mean this gentleman sitting at the end of the table over here or not?
A. No, no, the old man.  I can't say the name; from Quincy, with eye glass, white hair.
THE COURT.  Over here?
THE WITNESS.  Near the Italian consul.
THE COURT.  Mr. Scott?
THE WITNESS.  No, this man before the Italian consul.
THE COURT.  That is Captain Scott, isn't it?
THE WITNESS.  Captain Scott, yes.
Q. Captain Scott?
A. Yes.
Q. All right.  What did he tell you to do when these people were brought in?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
THE COURT.  Has he testified yet?
MR. MOORE.  No.
THE COURT.  How can what he said bind the Commonwealth in any way?
MR. MOORE.  Well, I am not going any further than to show the attempts at identification.  That is all I am aiming at.
THE COURT.  What other effect can that have than to bind in some way the Commonwealth by an action of a police officer?  They don't speak for the Commonwealth.  Isn't there decisions to the effect if one man who said, "I do not know whether that is a person or not," is that evidence on the question of identification?
MR. MOORE.  I have in mind, your Honor, we ought to be permitted to show--
THE COURT.  I would like to have you first give me some authority tomorrow morning to that effect.
MR. MOORE.  All right.  May I ask one or two questions-passing this issue?
THE COURT.  Sure.
Q. Did you obey and comply with every request that was made of you during the time that you were being looked over?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. What did you do to comply with these requests?
A. I guess I can't get that.
Q. What did you do in order to meet the requests of the officers when these people were looking you over?  What did you do as these people came in and went out?
A. Oh, I walked, stayed still like that, and the first time they brought over about five or six people, four men and two women, two women, one young girl there, but I --never saw her over on the stand,--kind of dark complexion, very nice looking girl, dressed up good, and she was the first, and three or four men.
MR. KATZMANN.  I ask that he be asked to answer the question, "What did you do?" He proceeds to tell what some girl looked like, she had a nice complexion.
MR. MOORE.  I agree with that.
THE COURT.  No question, Mr. Moore, that the witness did everything voluntarily that the police asked him to do.  Aren't you opening up now a field that will admit the photographs as competent evidence?  I only make that suggestion.
MR.  MOORE.  I realize that, your Honor.  My question goes to the point of the police station.
THE COURT.  He was at the police station when the pictures were taken.
MR. MOORE.  I think not.  I think they were taken outside, as I recollect the testimony.
THE COURT.  It is for you to go ahead.  I make the suggestion.  I have excluded the pictures up to the present time.
MR. MOORE.  Yes.
Q. How many people, Mr. Sacco, would you say looked you over that first day after you were arrested?
THE COURT.  Suppose we leave this until you furnish some authority that says it is evidence.  In other words, supposing a dozen people see a man and say, "I can't recognize a person." Is that competent evidence as bearing upon the question of identity?  If a man says that he is, why, that is evidence.  If a man says, "I think he is the person," that is evidence, but a man says, "I do not know whether that is the person or not," is that competent evidence as bearing upon any question involved in this case, I would like some authority on that, if you please.
MR. MOORE.  Yes, your Honor.  I might at this time make the same request with reference to some other articles of clothing, Mr. Katzmann, that you will probably have here in the morning, a coat and one or two other articles.
MR. KATZMANN.  Of his?
MR. MOORE.  Yes.  Then there are also some matters of handcuffs taken out of the house at the time of--
MR. KATZMANN.  Supposing you adopt the Court's suggestion.  You are making a statement they were.  I do not know whether it is true or not.
MR. MOORE.  There may be other matters, your Honor, in connection with this witness.
THE COURT.  Are you nearly through with the witness?
MR. MOORE.  There are some matters that counsel have marked here that I haven't had a chance to check over.
THE COURT.  I would like to, without any injustice in any way to the defendant, I would like to finish the direct tonight if we can.  Otherwise, of course, anything omitted you could take up tomorrow.
MR. MOORE.  Your Honor, there are one or two matters here.  One is the question of the passport which physically I haven't in my possession at this time.  There is also the question of some letters which physically I haven't in my possession at this time.  I think that that is all.  It is barely possible upon checking things over this evening--
THE COURT.  If you check things over and anything is omitted, of course you can take that up to-morrow.
MR. MOORE.  But other than those two physical matters I have in mind now-
THE COURT.  Anything upon checking up you find you have omitted, of course you will be given an opportunity to go into such matters as that, and with that statement I think we will adjourn now until to-morrow morning at 9.30.
[Adjourned to Thursday, July 7, 1921, at 9:30 a.m.]

THIRTY-FIRST DAY. Thursday, July 7, 1921.

 Direct Examination, Resumed.
Q. [By Mr. Moore.] Mr. Sacco, what did you intend to do on arrival West Bridgewater or at Elm Square that night?
A. We went there to get the automobile.
Q. Then what were you going to do?  Tell us what did you intend to do?
A. Well, if we get the automobile, Vanzetti and Boda will go to Plymouth.  Before they go to Plymouth, they are to go and see Pappi in Bridgewater, West Bridgewater,--I do not know where it is--and I will come back with Orcciani, with me to Brockton to see the friends, my friends, and try to find out when we can print those handbills, print, have the bills for Sunday, and another thing, I will advise the same thing to my friends to be preparing, letter and paper, everything in a valise, so next day the friend will come around and take the literature and bring it away.  Then after I go back to my house,--Orcciani bring me to my house.
Q. Who did you intend to see that night in Brockton?
A. Mike Colombo.
Q. Any one else you think of?
A. Rocco Alexandro.
Q. Now, Mr. Sacco, I believe you stated yesterday that on May 4th you had secured your Foglio di Via from the Italian consulate.  Is that [indicating] the paper you were given at that time?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. MOORE.  I offer this in evidence, your Honor. [Handing to the Court.]
THE COURT.  The date of that is May 4th 9.
THE WITNESS.  Yes.
[Mr.  Moore shows Foglio di Via to Mr. Katzmann.]
Q. Now, Mr. Sacco,--
MR. KATZMANN.  Just a minute, Mr. Moore, please.  Mr. Ross [Mr.  Ross confers with Mr. Katzmann.]
MR. KATZMANN.  In view of the language it is in, your Honor, I am asking the interpreter to read it to me.
THE COURT.  All right.
MR. KATZMANN.  I won't take the time to have it all read now, if your Honor please.
MR. MOORE.  The passport paper is offered as an exhibit at this time.
THE COURT.  Is that a passport itself or something that takes the place of it?
MR. MOORE.  Technically speaking, I understand it is not a passport.
THE COURT.  That is my impression.
[Foglio di Via issued to defendant Sacco is offered in evidence and marked "Exhibit P."]
Q. Mr. Sacco, how did it happen that you were carrying on the evening of May 5th a revolver or a pistol?
A. Well, to use like that.  My wife used to clean the house, get ready, because we are to go Saturday to New York to get the steamboat, and she was getting ready, and so she cleaned the bureau, and because the revolver, the pistol and bullets--
MR. KATZMANN.  I will have to ask him to repeat.
MR. MOORE.  Speak louder.
THE WITNESS.  The pistol and the bullets.
MR. KATZMANN.  I would like to have him start again.
Q. Start again.  Repeat that entire answer loud and full.
A. May 5th, always to start from May 2d.  My wife started to pre-
pare something, the clothes, you know, to get ready, so May 5th she cleaned the bureau, and the pistol was closed with a key, because I was afraid that sometime my boy could go after it, so she cleaned the bureau and she pulled out the bullets and the pistol, and then she ask me, she said, "What are you going to do, Nick, with this?"
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
Q. Not what she said to you, but -what you did.  A. So I took that sometime in the afternoon, about half past three, I should say, about four 0 'clock, anyway.  I said, "Well, I go to shoot in the woods, me and Vanzetti." So I did.  I took it in my pocket.  I put the revolver over here [indicating] and the bullets in my pocket, in my pocket back.  Well, we started to talk in the afternoon, me and Vanzetti, and half past four Oreciani and Boda came over to the house, so we started an argument and I forgot about to go in the woods shooting, so it was still left in my pocket.
Q. Where did the shells that you had in your pocket at the time that evening when you were arrested, where had you gotten those?
A. I bought.  I bought that on Hanover Street.
THE COURT.  Boston?
THE WITNESS.  Yes, Boston.
Q. Have you any idea how long you had had them?
A. How long I did bought that?  I bought sometime in 1917 or 1918, I suppose, 1918 or 1917.  I am no sure.  I can't remember the date, but I buy that sometime in the war times when the bullets were very scarce and you could not buy it.
Q. I am referring, Mr. Sacco, to the .32 calibre loaded shells that were in the gun and in your pocket?
A. Yes.
Q. At the time of your arrest?
A. Yes.
Q. That is what you are referring to?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when had you received word of your mother's death?
A. I received a letter, the first letter from my father.  It was sometime the last of March.  My mother died on the 7th of March.  The letter came about the 22d or 23d of March, I should say.  I do not remember exactly the day, but I should say that time, about that time.
Q. Did you speak to Mr. Kelley about leaving his employ and going to Italy?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At the time, or about April 15th, what steps had you taken to secure some one to take your place, if any?
A. I spoke with George Kelley.  That is the son of Michael Kelley.  He is running the factory there.  He is the superintendent.  So I say, "George, I desire to go to Italy."
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
Q. Not what you said to him.  What did you do, and what was done?  Did you tell Mr. Kelley you were going to Italy?
A. Yes.
Q. What steps were then taken to get some one to take your place?
A. I told him about Monday before March, because I was ready to go before March.  I told George to find a man as quickly as he can.  I say, I am not going to leave you,"
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment, if your Honor please.
Q. Do you know who came, or who was secured to take your place?
A. Yes.  He asked me if Henry Iacovelli could come with me.  He was a witness here.
Q. Do you know whether or not this gentleman came?
A. Yes, he did came.
Q. Do you know when?
A. The 15th of April with his wife over to my house.
Q. You were not present when they came?
A. No, sir.
MR. KATZMANN.  I ask that be stricken out.
MR. MOORE.  I wanted to clarify that.
Q. You did not actually see Mr. Iacovelli that day at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Sacco, you were carrying during the period of your work for the 3-K Company, you carried a bank account, did you not?
A. What?
Q. You carried a bank account?  You had a bank account, savings account?
A. My wife does that.
Q. Your wife had?
A. Yes.
Q. The money that went into that account, was that money that you had earned?
A. Money I make by work as I give to my wife.
Q. During any of the time-- was your wife working also?
A. Yes, she did for a little while when we were in Brockton.
Q. Just when was that?
A. That was in 1918 between March and April.  A couple of months she worked, and then I stopped.
Q. She worked then how long before you went to the 3-K?
A. She worked how long?
Q. How long?
A. She worked 9
Q. Yes.
A. I should say about two months straight.
Q. Then when you went to the 3-K, in addition to the regular work as a piece worker, did you do anything else?
A. Yes.
Q. What?
A. I used to light the steam heat in the shop in the winter time, the fireman, and assist watch the shop.
Q. Anything else?
A. No.
Q. How did-you get in and out of the shop?
A. What?
Q. How did you get into the shop?
A. By the key.
Q. Did you always carry a key to the shop?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. For how long, to your remembrance, was it that you carried the keys to the 3-K factory?
A. I should say about seven or eight months.
Q. Mr. Sacco, does this savings account deposit book appearing in the name of Rose Sacco, account No. 78320, represent the deposits and the bank balance from your earnings or your joint earnings? A. Yes.  Of course, I don't know the,--remember how much she have. I never ask how much she have in the bank, but my wife, she know better.  I never put money in the bank,--sometime my wife was busy, but most of the time it was my wife go.  I never know how much she have, either.
MR. MOORE.  We offer that, your Honor.
MR. KATZMANN.  I object to that, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  On the ground that he knows nothing about it?
MR. KATZMANN.  Yes.  He said he did not know the amount she had, and did not put the money in the bank.  Should have somebody to identity the--
THE COURT.  Supposing she does say later that represents money given the bank by her?  What do you say then as to its competency?
MR. KATZMANN.  I say it is competent.
MR. MOORE.  Then, of course, the witness has already testified that he made some of the deposits. However, if your Honor desires, we will refrain from offering--
THE COURT.  That is not concerning,--I would not say it is important, neither would I say it is unimportant.  If you say later evidence will be offered--
MR. MOORE.  Tending-
THE COURT. --tending to prove that, why, I think I ought not to force you to recall the defendant in a matter of that kind.  Is it your purpose to call the wife, Mr. Moore?
MR. MOORE.  Yes, sir.
THE COURT.  Is it your purpose to call the wife?
MR. MOORE.  Yes, sir.
THE COURT.  It may be.  With that understanding you may.  It may be received in evidence.
Q. Mr. Sacco, in addition to regular money that you received for your piece work with the 3-K Company,--
A. Yes.
Q.--did you receive any other money?
A. Yes.
Q. How much?
A. $26 a month.
Q. What is your best recollection of the approximate period that you received that?  A. Well, that is separated from my piece work every month.
Q. I know, but for how long a period of time did you receive that, to your best recollection?
A. I should say seven or eight months.  I am not sure, but I am sure seven months, anyway.
Q. Mr. Sacco, at the time that you were taken into the Brockton police station on May 6th or 7th, what did you do at the time that various people came into that room, into the jail, to look at you?
A. I walked with a couple of police away tip to the big room, up to the police station.
Q. Speak loudly and fully.
A. And when I went in the bi- room, I find a couple from Brockton, from Quincy,--Mr.  Scott.
MR. KATZMANN.  Now, if your Honor please, the question is, what he did.
MR. MOORE.  Yes.
Q. What did you do?
A. So I went in.  I stand up.  Sometimes I turned around like that [indicating].  Sometimes faced like that [indicating] the first time.  There was about six or seven people watching the way I was turning around.  The second time Miss Devlin
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
THE WITNESS.  Mrs. Devlin-
THE COURT.  That is not responsive.
Q. Are you referring to some one that has testified in this case?  Are you attempting to give the name of a person that testified here?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the name you are giving?
A. Miss Devlin and Miss Splaine.
Q. Miss Devlin and Miss Splaine.
A. They were together,--six more men, and another girl.
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
THE COURT.  The trouble is it is not responsive.  Put another question if you want to get at the names of the parties who testified.
Q. Was there any one else there that has testified in this case?
A. Yes.
Q. Who?  A. A fellow from South Braintree, a shoemaker, Berdinus.  He was there.
Q. Louis Berdinus?
A. Yes.
Q. Any one else you remember?
A. No. Yes, I saw another one.
Q. What did you do when these various people were in the room?
A. The first time I walked a couple of steps.  Then I walked a couple of steps like that [indicating].  Then I walk a couple of steps like that [indicating] in this way.  So the second time I cross like that [indicating].  They make me just to shoot, wait for somebody to hold up money, with a dirty cap on my head.  The second time he put the hair like that [indicating] with the hands, and I turned around.  On the second time make—
Q. How do you mean with your eyes, eyes looking up?
A. Yes, still.  The other time made me look on the right side with eyes raised, and four times this way [indicating] with the left side.
Q. Turned your eyes to the left?
A. Yes.  So when I stand again, they put a cap, the old cap on again.  After that that was all.
Q. Did any of these people who were in the room at the time that you did these things, did any of these people do anything themselves?
A. They watch pretty carefully, pretty close, and the most of the people I could see the head very sorry, shaken.
MR. KATZMANN.  Now, one moment, if your Honor please.  I ask that be stricken out.
MR. MOORE.  I will consent to the striking out of everything except the shaking of the head.
MR. KATZMANN.  That is the part I insist be stricken out.
THE COURT.  The difficulty comes with that Mr. Moore it identifies nobody.  If he can state the ones who shook their head, it would perhaps be better; perhaps he can recollect some of those who did shake their head.  If he does, I think that is competent.
Q. Can you tell what any particular person did?
A. Yes.
Q. State to the jury.
A. Berdinus, the shoemaker from South Braintree, he saw me pretty close.  He turned,-make me turn around about four or five times, walking.  Any position they told me I been done.  So after they asked him, "What do you think?" he was kind of sorry.  He said, "No, sir," and so they answered back.
Q. You say Berdirius said, "No, sir"?
A. Yes.  After he looked at me five minutes.  Any position they told me to do, I been done.  So, after all, he says, "No, sir."
[Witness makes further remarks unintelligible to stenographer.]
MR. KATZMANN.  Of course, if your Honor please, that last part is not only irresponsive, but it is not admissible and not competent against the Commonwealth.  A couple of police from Quincy don't bind the Commonwealth, if they ever said it.
THE COURT.  Have they testified?
MR. MOORE.  I think I can clarify that in one question.
Q. Have you any of the officers, any of them, who made the remarks that you have just attributed to them, have they or have they not testified in this case?
A. No, sir.
MR. KATZMANN.  Now, I renew the objection it be stricken out.
THE COURT.  All right.  I don't know what it is.  I heard something about a "wop." I don't know what that is, what he said, or in connection with how it came in.  Do you admit it?
MR. MOORE.  Frankly I know what was said, but there is only one way--
THE COURT.  The stenographer hasn't got it.  I ought to know what it is if I am going to order it stricken from the record.  If you agree it may be stricken from the record, whatever it was, then-
Q. Now, Mr. Sacco, did any of these people come back on more than one occasion?  Did they look at you on more than-one time?
A. Yes.
Q. Who looked it you on more than one occasion?
A. I could recognize they were Miss Splaine and Miss Devlin.
Q. Miss Devlin?
A. Yes.
Q. How many times did Miss Splaine come and look at you?
A. I should say three times.
Q. And how many times did Miss Devlin come?
A. Two or three. times.  I am not sure three, but I saw, very sure, two.
Q. How many persons, all told, Mr. Sacco, looked at you during the time that you were in the jail there?
A. I should say about one hundred.
Q. Mr.  Sacco, at the time that you were arrested, did you have at that time all of the .32 calibre shells or any calibre shells of any kind or character that there was in your house?  A. Yes, sir.
Q. There has been some testimony here with reference to some shotgun shells.  What is the history of those shells, Mr. Sacco?
A. The history of those shells,--one of the friends of mine, sometime in 1919 or 1918,
I can't remember exactly--
Q. 1919 or 1918.  Is that what you mean, not 1908?
A. Yes.  So he came over with his wife--his wife was sick--to pass a couple of days
with me to my house.  He was going to Italy, the whole family.  So he came with an automobile over there.  He bring a gun, and at the same time he bring a box of shells, and we went in the woods that day, me, him and his wife, playing and shooting in the wood,-mostly destroyed moths, but there was left in the box about three.  So the three were always in my house.  The 5th of May, when Vanzetti came over, he went to drink water and he saw those three shells.  My wife was cleaning over there.
Q. Where were they?
A. On a shelf near where they put the glass, glass and everything in back.  So my wife, going to clean, she put them in front, and Vanzetti said, "What are you going to do with these?"
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
THE COURT.  Were you present?
THE WITNESS.  Yes, I was present.  My wife was present, too.
THE COURT.  Your wife gave them to the defendant Vanzetti?
THE WITNESS.  No, they were,-naturally he took them with his hands.
THE COURT.  He took them with his hands?
THE WITNESS.  Yes.  Took and says, "I will bring them to Plymouth to a friend of mine so I could make fifty cents for the benefit for the prisoner and other things."
Q. Mr. Sacco, yesterday I asked you if you were at South Braintree on April 15, 1920? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you shoot any one, make any attack upon any one?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or participate in any crime of any kind or character at South Braintree at any time April 15th, or any other date?
A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Sacco, you know Mr. Dominick Ricci?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see Mr.—
A. --Ricci?
Q. --at Stoughton?
A. Yes.
Q. And also at the 3-K factory?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On what days?
A. At 3-K, you mean?
Q. What time did you see him there, on what date?
A. In the factory ?
Q. At the factory and also on the street?
 A. Well, I used to see him pretty near every day when he used to go to work there, in the factory, but I remember I saw him in the factory in the morning.  He used to come over and read the paper every morning, because he used to work over there near the factory, building a house.
MR. MOORE.  That is all.
Direct Examination by Mr. Jeremiah McAnarney.
Mr. Sacco, after you were arrested, you were taken to the police station at Brockton?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were questioned by, you have said, Chief Stewart?
A. Yes, the first time.
Q. And who questioned you the second time?
A. I could not remember, Mr. McAnarney.  I don't remember.  Some other policeman: but I don't remember the name.
Q. Were you later asked questions by Mr. Katzmann?
A. Yes.  The second day, the 6th.
Q. The next day?
A. Yes, May 6th, in the night.
THE COURT.  Anything in addition to what Mr. Moore brought out that you desire to bring out, Mr. McAnarney?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Yes, sir.
THE COURT.  I wish you would come right to it, please.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I want to show that he had the interview, and then what transpired.
Q. How long were you questioned by Mr. Katzmann?  About how long, if you recall?
A. I think about an hour,--more than an hour, anyway.
Q. He asked you questions about,-- I don't ask what details, but generally what did,--well, to go back to Stewart.  What did Stewart ask you about?

MR. KATZMANN.  Haven't we been all over this, your Honor?
THE COURT.  I thought so.  How would it be competent generally?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  What Stewart said to him?
THE COURT.  Yes.  Only so far as it may contradict Mr. Stewart's testimony.  What a police officer says or what a District Attorney said--
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Whatever took place, your Honor please, between him and Chief Stewart, the officer sitting here at the desk advising with the District Attorney, the officer who took him after his arrest.  It seems to me that is competent.
THE COURT.  On what theory?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  On the theory that here is the Chief of Bridgewater in whose district the man is arrested.  The prisoner is now interrogated by the Chief, and the Chief is here, been here since this trial started, advising with the District Attorney.  Now, whatever interrogation the Chief makes of this man as bearing on what he was arrested for, what he was held for, what he supposed he was charged with when he made whatever answers he made, it seems to me as though we have nothing only a fiction unless we have the fact.
THE COURT.  You may have much of that.  You are entitled to it.  If because a man is chief of police, no defendant can introduce self-serving statements.  They are not competent as a matter of law.  Therefore, if that is the sole purpose, I must exclude it.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Not because he is chief of police, but for all the reasons I have said.
THE COURT.  If the chief of police should take the witness stand, or anything that he has testified to, then can he of course, contradict him on any conversation the Chief has opened up, you are entitled to all of it, but merely because a man is chief of police, that does not give a defendant a right to introduce self-serving statements  It is purely hearsay, as this is an indictment between the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and the defendants.  Therefore, the chief of police can't bind the Commonwealth.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  It was not for the purpose, if your Honor please, of getting a self-serving statement.  I wanted the statement from the Chief; not this man's answer.
THE COURT.  Suppose, on the other hand, that the Chief had said something that might have been derogatory to a defendant.  Because he is Chief, that does not make it any--give it any probative effect; and neither as pure hearsay would it be competent.  I don't quite,--if you want it under the theory of consciousness of guilt, under what he supposed he was arrested for, I think he has been through that,--what his knowledge was.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  That was the main purpose, his knowledge, as gathered.
THE COURT.  I Will allow you to go into that the same as I allowed Mr. Moore to go into it yesterday.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I am only going to put this question and follow it up and close the incident.
THE COURT.  If there is only one question, I might allow that even though I might violate some rule of the law of evidence.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I want to get this man’s frame of mind as a result of the questions that we asked of him.
THE COURT.  I will allow you to get that, but I am a little inclined to feel that you were trying to get at the frame of mind of the Chief.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I wouldn't intimate the Chief's frame of mind.
Q. As a result of questions that were asked of you by the Chief, did you form any opinion as to why you were apprehended that night of May 5th?
A. No, sir.
Q. You did not form any opinion?
A. No.
Q. You were not informed as to what the charge was?
A. I thought it was a Radical charge.
Q. You thought it was a Radical charge?
A. Yes.
Q. Then I don't understand your previous answer.  Without calling the interpreter, did you form the opinion that you were arrested because of Radical work?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when you were interrogated by Stewart, did you tell Stewart the truth?
A. No, sir.
Q. When you were interrogated by the District Attorney, did you tell him the truth, or did you lie to him?
A. I did not tell him the truth.
Q. You did not tell him the truth?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Well, because I was,--I wouldn't give him all that work we had done.
Q. What is that?
A. All the work we had done to get the literature, not to name my friends to get them in trouble.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I think that is all.
If your Honor please, the District Attorney is having trouble letting a hat here.
MR. KATZMANN.  Not in getting it, but in getting the man, who has been on duty, and we have telephoned for him.  He was to be here at 9.30 this morning.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I believe he has not the cap and coat yet.
MR KATZMANN.  Neither have I.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  We better get it through you.  When it does come, we would like the privilege of recalling this witness to testify.
THE COURT.  I think there ought not to be any difficulty on that, inasmuch as both counsel,--that is, counsel on both sides seem to be desirous of having the cap, so I think between you you might succeed in getting it.
[Conference at bench between Court and counsel.]
 

 Cross-examination.

Q. [By Mr. Katzmann.] Did you say yesterday you love a free country?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you love this country in the month of May, 1917?
A. I did not say,--I don't want to say I did not love this country.
Q. Did you love this country in the month of 1917?
A. If you can, Mr. Katzmann, if you give me that,--I could explain
Q. Do you understand that question?
A. Yes.
Q. Then will you please answer it?
A. I can't answer in one word.
Q. You can't say whether you loved the United States of America one week before the day you enlisted for the first draft?
A. I can't say in one word, Mr. Katzmann.
Q. You can't tell this jury whether you loved the country or not?
MR.  MOORE.  I object to that.
A. I could explain that, yes, if I loved--
Q. What?
A. I could explain that, yes, if I loved, if you give me a chance.
Q. I ask you first to answer that question.  Did you love this United States of America in May, 1917?
A. I can't answer in one word.
Q. Don't you know whether you did or not?
MR. MOORE.  I object, your Honor.
THE COURT.  What say?
MR. MOORE.  I object to the repetition of this question without giving the young man an opportunity to explain his attitude.
THE COURT.  That is not the usual method that prevails.  Where the question can be categorically answered by yes or no, it should be answered.  The explanation comes later. Then you can make any inquiry to the effect of giving the witness an opportunity of making whatever explanation at that time he sees fit to make, but under cross-examination counsel is entitled to get an answer either yes or no, when the question can be so answered.  You may proceed, please.
Q. Did you love this country in the last week of May, 1917?
A. That is pretty hard for me to say in one word, Mr. Katzmann.
Q. There are two words you can use, Mr. Sacco, yes or no.  Which one is it?
A. Yes.
Q. And in order to show your love for this United States of America when she was about to call upon you to become a soldier you ran away to Mexico?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Wait.
THE COURT.  Did you?
Q. Did you run away to Mexico?
THE COURT.  He has not said he ran away to Mexico.  Did you go?
Q. Did you go to Mexico to avoid being a soldier for this country that you loved?
A. Yes.
Q. You went under an assumed name?
A. No.
Q. Didn't you take the name of Mosmacotelli?
A. Yes.
Q. That is not your name, is it?
A. No.
Q. How long did you remain under the name of Mosmacotelli?
A. Until I got a job over to Mr. Kelley's.
Q. When was that?
A. The armistice.
Q. After the war was practically over?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then, for the first time, after May, 1917, did you become known as Sacco again?  A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it for the reason that you desired to avoid service that when you came back in four months you went to Cambridge instead of to Milford?
A. For the reason for not to get in the army.
Q. So as to avoid getting in the army.
A. Another reason why, I did not want no chance to get arrested and one year in prison.
Q. Did not want to get arrested and spend one year in prison for dodging the draft.  It that it?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you love your country when you came back from Mexico?
A. The first time?
THE COURT.  Which country did you say?  You said
Q. United States of America, your adopted country?
A. I did not say already.
Q. When you came back, I asked you.  That was before you went.
A. I don't think I changed my opinion in three months.
Q. You still loved America, did you?
A. I should say yes.
Q. And is that your idea of showing your love for this Country?
A. [Witness hesitates.]
Q. Is that your idea of showing your love for America?
A. Yes.
Q. And would it be your idea of showing your love for your wife that when she needed you you ran away from her?
A. I did not run away from her.
MR. MOORE.  I object.
THE WITNESS.  I was going to come after if I need her.
THE COURT.  He may answer.  Simply on the question of credibility, that is all.
Q. Would it be your idea of love for your wife that you were to run away from her when she needed you?
MR.  JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Pardon me.  I ask for an exception on that.
THE COURT.  Excluded.  One may not run away.  He has not admitted he ran away.
Q. Then I will ask you, didn't you run away from Milford so as to avoid being a soldier for the United States?
A. I did not run away.
Q. You mean you walked away?
A. Yes.
Q. You don't understand me when I sty "run away," do you?
A. That is vulgar.
Q. That is vulgar?
A. You can say a little intelligent, Mr. Katzmann.
Q. Don't you think going away from your country is a vulgar thing to do when she needs you?
A. I don't believe in war.
Q. You don't believe in war?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you think it is a cowardly thing to do what you did?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you think it is a brave thing to do what you did?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you think it would be a brave thing to go away from your own wife?
A. No.
Q. When she needed you?
A. No.
Q. What wages did you first earn in this country?
A. Wage?
Q. Wages, money, pay?
A. I used to get before I leave?
Q. When you first came to this country?
A. $1.15.
Q. Per day?
A. Yes.
Q. What were you getting at the 3-K factory when you got through?
A. Sometimes sixty, fifty, seventy, eighty, forty, thirty, twenty-five, thirty-five.  Depends on how much work was.
Q. That was within eight years after you first came to this country, isn't it?
A. After seven years,--no, after twelve years.
Q. 1908. I beg your pardon.  That is my mistake, Mr. Sacco.  I did not mean that.  That is within thirteen years?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. From the time you came to this country?
A. Yes.
Q. From $1.15 a day to $5 a day or better?
A. Yes.
Q. And your child was born in this country, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. And your marriage took place in this country?
A. Yes.
Q. Is Italy a free country?  Is it a republic?
A. Republic, yes.
Q. You love free countries, don't you?
A. I should say yes.
Q. Why didn't you stay down in Mexico?
A. Well, first thing, I could not get my trade over there.  I had to do any other job.
Q. Don't they work with a pick and shovel in Mexico?
A. Yes.
Q. Haven't you worked with a pick and shovel in this country?
A. I did.
Q. Why didn't you stay there, down there in that free country, and work with a pick and shovel?
A. I don't think I did sacrifice to learn a job to go to pick and shovel in Mexico.
Q. Is it because,--is your, love for the United States of America commensurate with the amount of money you can get in this country per week?
A. Better conditions, yes.
Q. Better country to make money, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Sacco, that is the extent of your love for this country, isn't it, measured in dollars and cents?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  If your Honor please, I object to this particular question.
THE COURT.  You opened up this whole subject.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  If your Honor please, I object to this question.  That is my objection.
THE COURT.  The form of it?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  To the substance and form.
MR. KATZMANN.  I will change the form, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  Better change that.
Q. Is your love for this country measured by the amount of money you can earn ere?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  To that question I object.
THE COURT.  Now, you may answer.
A. I never loved money.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Save my exception.
THE COURT.  Certainly.
Q. What is the reason then?--
THE COURT.  I allow this on the ground that the defendants opened it up.
Q. What is the reason you came back?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  My exception lies just the same.
THE COURT.  Certainly.
MR. MOORE.  Both defendants.
THE COURT.  Certainly.
Q. What is the reason you came back from Mexico if you did not love money, then?  A. The first reason is all against my nature, is all different food over there, different nature, anyway.
Q. That is the first reason.  It is against your nature.  The food isn't right.
A. Food, and many other things.
Q. You stood it for four months, didn't you?
A. Three months.
Q. Three months?
A. Yes.
Q. You came back all right physically, didn't you?
A. I should say yes.
Q. And you had Italian food there, didn't you?
A. Yes, made by ourselves.
Q. You could have had it all the time if you sent for it, couldn't you?
A. Not all the time.  I don't know.
Q. Did you fail to have it at any time in the three months you were there?
A. Yes, sir.  Different.
Q. What is the difference about it?
A. Oh, different food that we did not like.
Q. It was Italian food, wasn't it?
A. No, sir.
Q. Didn't you say it was?
A. Sometimes after.
Q. You could have had it all the time if you sent for it, couldn't you?
A. Could have had beans sometimes and any other vegetable.
MR. KATZMANN.  I ask that be stricken out and the witness required to answer the question.
Q. Could you have had it by sending for it?
A. Could not get it all the time.
Q. Why couldn't you get it in Mexico the same as you get it here?
A. I suppose Mexico is not very much industries as in this country.
Q. Couldn't you send to Boston to get Italian food sent to Monterey, Mexico?
A. If I was a D. Rockefeller I will.
Q. Then, I take it, you came back to the United States first to get something to eat.  Is that right?  Something that you liked?
A. No, not just for eat.
Q. Didn't you say that was the first reason?
A. The first reason--
Q. Didn't you say that was the first reason?
A. Yes.
Q. All right.  That wasn't a reason of the heart, was it?
A. The heart?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. That was a reason of the stomach, wasn't it?
A. Not just for the stomach, but any other reason.
Q. I am talking first about the first reason.  So, the first reason your love of America is founded upon is pleasing your stomach.  Is that right?
A. I will not say yes.
Q. Haven't you said so?
A. Not for the stomach.  I don't think it is a satisfaction just for the stomach.
Q. What is your second reason?
A. The second reason is strange for me, the language.
Q. Strange language?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you in an Italian colony there?
A. If I got them?  I can't get that, Mr. Katzmann.
Q. Pardon me.  Were you in a group of Italians there?
A. Yes.
Q. When you came to America in 1908, did you understand English?
A.  No.
Q. A strange language here, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the third reason, if there is one?
A. A third reason, I was far away from my wife and boy.
Q. Couldn't you have sent for your wife and your boy?
A. I wouldn't send for my wife and boy over there, because it was the idea to come back here.
Q. I know that.  You are back here.  My question is, couldn't you have sent for Mrs. Sacco and your boy?
A. Extreme condition, it would be bad.  I could not go back in this United States, why I would get my wife and my boy.
Q. Your answer means, does it not, you could have had Mrs. Sacco and the boy come down there to live with you?
A. Yes.
Q. You preferred to come back to this country?
A. Yes.
Q. But you preferred to remain under the name of Mosmacotelli until the armistice was signed, didn't you?
A. Yes.
1872
Q. Now, it there any other besides those three reasons why you loved the United States of America?
A. Well, I couldn’t say.  Over here there is more accommodation for the working class, I suppose, than any other people, a chance to be more industrious, and more industry.  Can have a chance to get anything he wants.
Q. You mean to earn more money, don’t you?
A. No, no, money, never loved money.
Q. Never loved money?
A. No, money never satisfaction to me.
Q. Money never a satisfaction to you?
A. No.
Q. what was the industrial condition that pleased you so much here if it wasn’t a chance to earn bigger money?
A. A man, Mr. Katzmann, has no satisfaction all through the money for the belly.
Q. For the what?
A. For the stomach, I mean.
Q. We got away from the stomach.  Now, I am talking about money.
A. There is lots of things.
Q. Well , let us have them all.  I want to know why you loved America so that after you got to the haven of Mexico when the United States was at war you came back here?
A. Yes.
Q. I want all the reasons why you came back?
A. I think I did tell you already.
Q. Are those all?
A. Yes, Industry makes lots of things different.
Q. Then there is food, that is one?
A. Yes
Q. Foreign language is two?
A. Yes.
Q. Your wife and child is three?
A. Yes.
Q. And better industrial conditions?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that all?
A. That is all.
Q. Among those four reasons, Mr. Katzmann, then do you find any one that is called love of country?  Have you named that reason?
MR. MOORE.  I object to that question.  The others are reasons, I take it.
THE COURT.  Read it please.
[The question is read.]
THE COURT.  That last remark does not belong in your question.
MR. KATZMANN.  “Have you named them?”  No, I suppose not.
THE COURT.  Leave that off, and you may ask it.
MR. KATZMANN.  All right.
Q. Did you find love of country among those four reasons?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Which one is love of country?
A. All together.
Q. All together?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Food, wife, language, industry?
A. Yes.
Q. Is standing by a country when she needs a soldier evidence of love of country?
MR. JEREMIAH MCANARNEY.  That I object to, if your Honor please.
 

1873
And I might state now I want my objection to go to this whole line of interrogation ?
THE COURT.  I think you opened it up.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  No, if your Honor please, I have not.
THE COURT.  It seems to me you have.  Are you going to claim much of all the collection of the literature and the books was really in the interest of the United States as well as these people and therefore it has opened up the credibility of the defendant when he claims that all that work was done really for the interest of the United States in getting this literature out of the way?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  That claim is not presented in anything tantamount to the language just used by the Court, and in view of the record as it stands at this time I object to this line of inquiry.
THE COURT.  Is that not your claim, that the defendant, as a reason that he has given for going to the Johnson house, that they wanted the automobile to prevent people from being deported and to get this literature all out of the way?  Does he not claim that that was done in the interest of the United States, to prevent violation of the law by the distribution of this literature?  I understood that was the--
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Are you asking that as a question to me?
THE COURT.  Yes.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Absolutely we have taken no such position as that, and the evidence at this time does not warrant the assumption of that question.
THE COURT.  Then you are not going to make that claim?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I am going to make whatever claim is legitimate.
THE COURT.  I want to know what that is.  You are going to claim in argument--
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I am going to claim this man and Vanzetti were of that class called Socialists.  I am going to claim that riot was running a year ago last April, that men were being deported, that twelve to fifteen hundred were seized in Massachusetts.
THE COURT.  Do you mean to say you are going to offer evidence on that?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I am going to claim--
THE COURT.  I am asking the claim.  You must know when I ask the claim I mean a claim that is founded on fact, evidence introduced in the case, and not upon anything else.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  We have not concluded the evidence, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  Do you say you are going to introduce evidence to that effect?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  We have witnesses which we may introduce here.  I do not know whether we will introduce them or not.
THE COURT.  When you address me, I wish you would direct yourself to either evidence introduced or evidence you propose to introduce.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Your Honor now sees--
THE COURT.  So I can pass judgment then upon that, and I cannot pass judgment as to the competency of something that may not be introduced and never come before me for consideration.
MR.  JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Your Honor now sees the competency of my remarks, when I said to your Honor that I objected to the question in the present state of the evidence?
THE COURT.  Are you going to claim that what the defendant did was in the interest of the United States?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Your Honor please, I now object to your Honor's statement as prejudicial to the rights of the defendants and ask that this statement be withdrawn from the jury.
THE COURT.  There is no prejudicial remark made that I know of, and none were intended.  I simply asked you, sir, whether you propose to offer evidence as to what you said to me.
MR.  JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  If your Honor, please, the remarks made with reference to the country and whether the acts that he was doing were for the benefit of the country.  I can see no other inference to be drawn from those except prejudicial to the defendants.
THE COURT.  Do you intend to make that claim?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  What claim, please?
THE COURT.  The one that I am suggesting.
MR.  JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  When this evidence is closed, if your Honor please, I shall argue what is legitimate in the case.
THE COURT.  All I ask is this one question, and it will simplify matters very much.  Is it your claim that in the collection of the literature and the books and papers that that was done in the interest of the United States?
MR.  JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  No, I make no such broad claim as that.
THE COURT.  Then I will hear you, Mr. Katzmann, on the competency of this testimony.
MR. KATZMANN.  I am sorry I did not hear what Mr. McAnarney said.
THE COURT.  Mr. McAnarney says it is not his claim, as I got it, he does not propose to make the claim that the collection and distribution of this literature was any matter to be done by either or both of the defendants in the interest of the United States.
MR. KATZMANN.  Then, if your Honor please, I offer the line of cross-examination I have started upon as tending to attack the credibility of this man as a witness.
THE COURT.  As to what part of his testimony?
1875
MR. KATZMANN.  As to any part of his testimony to affect his credibility as a witness in toto.
THE COURT.  You can't attack a witness's credibility in toto excepting concerning some subject matter about which he has testified.
MR. KATZMANN.  Well, he stated in his direct examination yesterday that he loved a free country, and I offer it to attack that statement made in his examination by his own counsel.
THE COURT.  That is what I supposed, and that is what I supposed that remark meant when it was introduced in this cross-examination, but counsel now say they don't make that claim.
MR. KATZMANN.  They say they don't make the claim that gathering up the literature on May 5th at West Bridgewater was for the purpose of helping the country, but that is a different matter, not related to May 5th.
THE COURT.  I will let you inquire further first as to what he meant by the expression.
MR. MOORE.  If your Honor please, with all due respect to the Court, I desire to reserve an exception to the question that was asked,-interrogation that was asked as to the purpose of the testimony that was introduced on behalf of the defendant with reference to the issue of love of country; reserve an exception with all due respect to the Court.
THE COURT.  Of course, gentlemen, you understand, and you should understand by this time, that the Court is simply to pass upon the competency of testimony that is offered.  The Court has no opinion of any facts.  You heard me say so.  The Court has no opinion in reference to this matter.  I made simply the inquiry with a view of ascertaining what the claim of counsel might be, what might be argued, and inasmuch as counsel said they made no such claim, then I have reserved the right to pass upon the competency after inquiry has been made with reference to said testimony of the witness. I think you should know, and I repeat it, anyhow, there is no disposition, nothing has been said to do the slightest thing in any manner whatsoever to prejudice the rights of either of these defendants, and anything that has been said you will not consider it if anybody can draw such an inference.  You will give it not the slightest consideration in the world.  It deserves none, and you will give it none.  The only question I was passing upon was the competency of testimony and nothing else.  Questions are not evidence.  Statements of counsel are not evidence.  Statements by the Court are not evidence.  You will be governed by absolutely nothing but testimony that is admitted and heard by you from the witnesses upon the stand.  You may proceed.
Q. What did you mean when you said yesterday you loved a free country?
A. First thing I came in this country--
Q. No, pardon me.  What did you mean when you said yesterday you loved a free country?
A. Give me a chance to explain.
Q. I am asking you to explain now.
A. When I was in Italy, a boy, I was a Republican; so I always thinking Republican has more chance to manage education, develop, to build some day his family, to raise the child and education, if you could.  But that was my opinion; so when I came to this country I saw there was not what I was thinking before, but there was all the difference, because I been working in Italy not so hard as I been work in this country.  I could live free there just as well.  Work in the same condition, but not so hard, about seven or eight hours a day, better food.  I mean genuine.  Of course, over here is good food, because it is bigger country, to any those who got money to spend, not for the working and laboring class, and in Italy is more opportunity to laborer to eat vegetable, more fresh, and I came in this country.  When I been started work here very hard and been work thirteen years, hard worker, I could not been afford much a family the way I did have the idea before.  I could not put any money in the bank.  I could no push my boy some to go to school and other things.  I teach over here men who is with me.  The free idea gives any man a chance to profess his own idea, not the supreme idea, not to give any person, not to be like Spain in position, yes, about twenty centuries ago, but to give a chance to print and education, literature, free speech, that I see it was all wrong.  I could see the best men, intelligent, education, they been arrested and sent to prison and died in prison for years and years without getting them out, and Debs, one of the great men in his country, he is in prison, still away in prison, because he is a Socialist.  He wanted the laboring class to have better conditions and better living, more education, give a push his son if he could have a chance some day, but they put him in prison.  Why?  Because the capitalist class, they know, they are against that, because the capitalist class, they don't want our child to go to high school or to college or Harvard College.  There would not be no chance, there would not be no,--they don't want the working class educationed; they want the working class to be a low all the times, be underfoot, and not to be up with the head.  So, sometimes, you see, the Rockefellers, Morgans, they give fifty,-- mean they give five hundred thousand dollars to Harvard College, they give a million dollars for another school.  Everybody say, "Well, D. Rockefeller is a great man, the best in the country.  I want to ask him who is going to Harvard College?  What benefit the working class they will get by those million dollars they give by Rockefeller, D. Rockefellers.  They won't get, the poor class, they won't have no chance to go to Harvard College because men who is getting $21 a week or $30 a week, I don't care if he gets $80 a week, if he gets a family of five children he can't live and send his child and go to Harvard College if he wants to eat anything nature will give him.  If he wants to eat like a cow, and that is the best thing, but I want men to live like men.  I like men to get everything that nature will give best, because they belong,--we are not the friend of any other place, but we are belong to nations.  So that is why my idea has been changed.  So that is why I love people who labor and work and see better conditions every day develop, makes no more war.  We no want fight by the gun, and we don't want to destroy young men.  The mother been suffering for building the young man.  Some day need a little more bread, so when the time the mother get some bread or profit out of that boy, the Rockefellers, Morgans, and some of the peoples, high class, they send to war.  Why? What is war?  The war is not shoots like Abraham Lincoln's and Abe Jefferson, to fight for the free-country, for the better education, to give chance to any other peoples, not the white people but the black and the others, because they believe and know they are mens like the rest, but they are war for the great millionaire.  No war for the civilization of men.  They are war for business, million dollars come on the side.  What right we have to kill each other?  I been work for the Irish, I have been working with the German fellow, with the French, many other peoples.  I love them people just as I could love my wife, and my people for that did receive me.  Why should I go kill them men?  What he done to me?  He never done anything, so I don't believe in no war.  I want to destroy those guns.  All I can say, the Government put the literature, give us educations.  I remember in Italy, a long time ago, about sixty years ago, I should say, yes, about sixty years ago, the Government they could not control very much these two,--devilment went on, and robbery, so one of the government in the cabinet he says, "If you want to destroy those devilments, if you want to take off all those criminals, you ought to give a chance to Socialist literature, education of people, emancipation.  That is why I destroy governments, boys." That is why my idea I love Socialists.  That is why I like people who want education and living, building, who is good, just as much as they could.  That is all.
Q. And that is why you love the United States of America?
A. Yes.
Q. She is back more than twenty centuries like Spain, is she?
A. At the time of the war they do it.
Q. Are we in time of war now?
A. No.
Q. Were we in time of war when you came back from Mexico?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you come back for, then?
A. I told the reason why I came back.
Q. All right.  You don't get a good education in this country?
A. I don't see why they have a chance.
Q. Do you get a better chance for education in Italy, I take it, from what you said?
A. I don't say Italy better education in this country.
Q. You said you could work less hours over in Italy?
A. Yes.
Q. You could get fresher vegetables?
A. Yes.
Q. Better food, and it was a republic?
A. For the working class.
Q. Why didn't you go back there?
A. Pretty hard for men to change when he establish in one place.
Q. Why, you were to go back, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Why didn’t you intend to stay back there when you went back?
A. Italy?
Q. Yes, your native country?
A. I could not stay or not because—
Q. Have you said whether you were going to stay or not?
A. Yes, I was going to go.
Q. Were you coming back?
A. I do not know, Mr. Katzmann.
Q. Did you tell me you were coming back?
A. I couldn’t say so.
 Q. Can't you remember what you said to me over in the Brockton police station?
 A. I could not remember all the words, but I do remember some conversation between me and Mr. Kelley.
Q. Never mind Kelley.  I am talking about myself now.  Didn't you tell me that you were coming back to this country in two or three months?
 A. Well, if I did--
Q. Did you?
A. I could not remember, Mr. Katzmann, if I did.
Q. Wasn't that your intention to come back?
A. I couldn't say yes, because probably I could remain in Italy because my father is old.  I could get his business over there.
Q. Were you going to have your father support you?
A. What? Support me, my father?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. Were you going to take your wife and child over.?
A. Yes.
Q. You could not go back to Italy, you say, because it would be a hardship, but you could take your wife and child back for a vacation; is that right?
A. No, not vacation.
Q. Wasn't it a vacation?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you going to work while you were over there?
A. Certainly.  I could not work without work.  I love work.
Q. You love work?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you love it as much as you love this country?
A. Well, I think men is a great work,--greater profit for the country, too.
Q, Do you love work as much as you love the United States?.
A. The reaction of the United States I did not like.
Q. When you came over to this country, you had certain ideas, didn't you of what was here?
A. No.
Q. Didn't you say when you came over you were thinking about education, building for your family, and raising a family?
A. Yes, but I was a Republican in my country.
Q. Didn't you say that you had those ideas of this country when you came here?
A. Yes.
Q. And didn't you say when you came you saw a difference?
A. Yes.
Q. And the things were better in Italy than they were here?
A. No, not that.
Q. In substance, haven't you said that in this long answer you gave?
A. No. Buy fruit more fresh for the working class, but no education and other things.  It is just the same.
Q. Didn't you say you did not have to work so hard in Italy?
A. Yes.
Q. That you could live just as well in Italy?
A. Yes.
Q. And that there was better food?
A. Yes.
Q. And fresher vegetables in Italy?
A. Yes.
Q. Why didn't you go back?
A. Well, I say already--
Q. Say it again.  Why didn't you go back when you were disappointed in those things? A. I say men established in this country, it is pretty hard to go back, change mind to go back.
Q. Pretty hard to change your mind?  A. Yes.
Q. You say on April 15, 1920, you were in Boston getting a passport to go back with your wife and children?
A. Yes.  That is not the reason I go back to the old country, for the fruit, but to see my father.  For twelve years I never saw him, my brother, my sister, or my folks.
Q. It is just as easy, isn't it, to go back to see your father as to go back for fruit.  You go back in either case?
A. I do the greatest sacrifice in the life to go there.
Q. To go back to a country where you get those things and could not get them here,-is that a sacrifice?
A. No. The great sacrifice is to see my folks.
Q. The great sacrifice.  All right.  Do you believe in obedience to constituted governmental authority?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I object, if your Honor please.
MR. KATZMANN.  Pause a moment.  There is an objection.
THE COURT.  I would like to see counsel at the bench.
[Conference between Court and counsel at bench.] [Short recess.]
Q. Do you remember speaking of educational advantages before the recess?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember speaking of Harvard University?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember saying that you could not get an education
there unless you had money?  I do not mean you used those exact words.  I do not contend you did, but, in substance, didn't you say that?
A. They have to use money in the rule of the Government.
Q. No. You don't understand.  Did you hear it, perhaps?
A. I can't understand.
Q. I will raise my voice a little bit.  Did you say in substance you could not send your boy to Harvard?
A. Yes.
Q. Unless you had money.  Did you say that?
A. Of course.
Q. Do you think that is true?
A. I think it is.
Q. Don't you know Harvard University educates more boys of poor people free than any other university in the United States of America?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I object.
THE COURT.  You may answer.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Save an exception.
THE COURT.  You may answer--if he knows.
Q. Do you know that to be the fact?
A. How many there are?
Q. What?
A. How many.
Q. How many?  Don't you know that each year there are scores of them that Harvard educates free?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I object.
THE COURT.  Wait until he finishes the question.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I thought he had.
MR. KATZMANN.  That was the end of it.
THE COURT.  He may answer yes or no, whether he knows or not.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Save an exception.
Q. The question is, do you know?
A. I can't answer that question, no.
Q. So without the light of knowledge on that subject, you are condemning even Harvard University, are you, as being a place for rich men?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Wait one minute.
THE COURT.  It does not follow.
Q. Did you intend to condemn Harvard College?
THE COURT.  He may answer.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Save an exception.
THE COURT.  Certainly.
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you ready to say none but the rich could go there without knowing about offering scholarships?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  To that I object.
THE COURT.  He may answer.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Save an exception.
THE COURT.  He made a statement in cross-examination with reference to statements that the witness himself made.  He may answer.
A. Yes.
Q. Does your boy go to the public schools?
A. Yes.
Q. Are there any schools in the town you came from in Italy that compare with the school your boy goes to?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I object.
THE COURT.  Isn't this quite a good way now from that?  Of course, I see, or think I see, what you have in mind eventually, but it seems to me the boy going to school is quite a considerable distance.
Q. Does your boy go to the public school?
A. Yes.
Q. Without payment of money?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you free nursing where you come from in Stoughton?
A. What do you mean?
Q. A district nurse?
A. For the boys?
Q. For anybody in your family who is ill?
A. I could not say.  Yes, I never have them in my house.
Q. Do you know how many children the city of Boston is educating in the public schools?-
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I object.
Q. [Continued.] --free?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I object.
THE COURT.  Ask him if he knows.
MR. KATZMANN.  I did.
THE COURT.  Answer yes or no.
Q. Do you know?
A. I can't answer yes or no.
Q. Do you know it is close to one hundred thousand children?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I object.
A. I know millions of people don't go there.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Wait.  When there is objection, don't answer.  I object to that question.
THE COURT.  He says he doesn't know.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I object to that answer.  I object to the question and the answer.
THE COURT.  The question may stand, and the answer also.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Will your Honor save an exception?
Q. Did you have some circulars and books in your house on May 5th?
A. Yes.
Q. How long had you had them there?
A. Well, I buy little by little when I have a chance to buy books.
Q. How long?
A. When I have money to buy.
Q. How long in all had you had them there?
A. In the house?
Q. Yes.  A. I should say beginning when I came to this country, some books.  Always were there right along after.
Q. Are they written in English?
A. Some.
Q. And in what other language?
A. Italian.  The most of them.
Q. Printed in this country or in Italy?
A. I couldn't say, but the most they are printed in Europe.
Q. The continent you left behind you?
A. And some is printed in America.
Q. Yes.  And do you subscribe to any papers?
A. Literature?
Q. Yes, literature in the sense of not books.  I was trying to distinguish.
A. Yes.
Q. What papers?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I object.
THE COURT.  You may answer.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Will your Honor save an exception?
THE COURT.  Certainly.
A. You mean a paper or books?
Q. Papers?
A. You mean I could say the paper I get every day?
Q. Yes, please.
A. I will.  I used to get Le Mortello.
Q. Where is that printed?
A. In New York City.
Q. In English or Italian?
A. In Italian.
Q. What other paper?  Is that a daily?
A. No, weekly.
Q. Weekly.
A. Every 15 days.
Q. Fortnightly?
A. Yes.  I used,--before the war, I used to get a Cronaco Soverseva.
Q. Is that a daily or a weekly?
A. Weekly.
Q. Printed where?
A. Lynn.
Q. Was the printing of that paper stopped during the war?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I object.
A. Mr. Katzmann, if you give me a chance to say some other papers.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Mr. Sacco, when I object, kindly stop.
THE COURT.  What is your objection?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  To the question.
THE COURT.  What is your objection?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  My objection is that question is immaterial; the answer is immaterial.
THE COURT.  I don't know.  Supposing the character of this literature became important?  Does it not become material on the question of credibility?  In other words, there may not be anything in these at all that would warrant deportation.  Then, if there is nothing in that, in the literature, that is evidence attacking the credibility of the witness, is it not?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  In view of the state of the record that question, to my mind, is not material now.
THE COURT.  It goes to test, as I take it, does it not.  Mr. District Attorney, the credibility of the witness with reference to the collection and distribution of the circulars, books and literature?
MR. KATZMANN.  Of May 5th.
THE COURT.  That is what I understand is the purpose.  You may proceed, if that is the purpose.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Will your Honor kindly save an exception?
THE COURT.  Certainly.
Q. Was the printing of that paper stopped during the war?
A. Yes.
Q. Was the printing of Le Mortello stopped during the war?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  The same objection.
A. Yes.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Wait a minute.
THE COURT.  If it was stopped, then it could not have been the date.
MR. KATZMANN.  May not have been destroyed, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  Supposing you deal more particularly with literature that was published and literature that was in the mind of the witness at the time when they sought to get the automobile.
MR. KATZMANN.  If your Honor please, I am starting at his house with just that subject matter.
THE COURT.  All right.
MR. KATZMANN.  My initial questions asked what he was taking.
THE COURT.  Yes.  Eventually to show that the character of these other publications—
MR. KATZMANN.  Yes, I propose to ask him.
THE COURT.  At the time, to wit, on May 5th--
MR. KATZMANN. --1920, and if he knew of these papers being in other people's houses.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Kindly save me an exception.
THE COURT.  Certainly.
THE WITNESS.  I used to read some other paper.
MR. KATZMANN.  Wait.  I do not think you have answered the last question.
Q. Was the printing of Le Mortello stopped during the war?
A. Yes.
Q. What other papers did you have in your house on May 5th?
A. It is published now.
Q. Yes, it is published now?
A. Yes.  In the time of the war, too, it was stopped for a little while.
Q. What other papers did you have in your house on May 5th, 1920?
A. I read,--I buy Boston Globe every morning.
Q. What other papers?
A. I read Boston American every night.
Q. What other papers?
A. Some papers from Italy, too.  Some other Socialist papers from Italy.
Q. Some other Socialist papers from Italy?
A. Yes.
Q. Were all those papers except the Boston Globe and the Boston American, or copies of them, in your house
A. No.
Q. --on May 5th?
A. They all used to destroy when I finished reading.
Q. Didn't you have any of those papers in your house May 5th?
A Yes, some good literature I keep.
Q. I am asking about papers, first.
A. Yes.
Q. What papers did you have on May 5th in your house?
A. You mean books?
Q. No.
A. Just the papers?
Q. I mean papers, newspapers, or periodicals?
A. I got some every kind literature.
Q. All these kinds that you have mentioned, Le Mortello?
A. Yes.
Q. Cronaco Soverseva?
A. Yes.
Q. The papers from Italy?
A. Yes.
Q. Were they Socialist papers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. They anarchistic papers?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I object.
THE COURT.  What is the objection to that?  As I understand it, the papers, Under your theory, were of such a character that he was going to collect them and dispose of them some way.
MR.  JEREMIAH McANARNEY. The objection is that the question is incompetent, immaterial and irrelevant at the present state of the record.
THE COURT.  I will admit it on the ground that I have already stated.
MR. KATZMANN.  Yes.  I propose to follow it up step by step.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Save an exception.
THE COURT.  Certainly.
Q. Were they anarchistic?
A. Some of them:
Q. Were any of the books that were in your house anarchistic?
A. Yes, some.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I object to that.
THE COURT.  All right.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Save an exception.
Q. How many of them?
A. I never counted.
Q. About how many?
A. All together, you mean?  All the literature ?
Q. No, I do not mean all the books you had, but all the books you had that were anarchistic and all the newspapers or periodicals you had that were anarchistic on May 5, 1920, in your house?
A. Quite a good many books.
Q. How many?
A. You want me to name those books?
Q. No. I want the number, not name.
A. I never counted them.
Q. Was it a dozen?
A. More than a dozen.
Q. Two dozen?
A. More.
Q. Three dozen?
A. Yes, I guess so.
Q. That is about right?
A. Yes.
Q. What size books were they?
A. Some sizes four or five hundred pages.  Some size two hundred.  Some size one hundred.  Some size two thousand.  Some size four thousand.  Many size.
Q. Could you have carried those books out of your house yourself unassisted in two or three or four trips in your arms?
A. No, sir.
Q. How many trips would it take you?  A. I should say a dozen.
Q. A dozen.  You were home from Monday noon, May 3d, weren't you, until the night of May 5th?  I withdraw that.  I am in error.  You were home Monday afternoon, May 3d, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You were home Monday Night, May 3d?
A. Yes.
Q. You talked with Vanzetti on Sunday, May 2d?
A. Yes.
Q. You had heard this terrible report from New York, hadn't you?
A.  Yes.
Q. Did you make any move Monday afternoon to take any of those things out of your house?
A. No.
Q. Did you make any move.  Monday night to take them out of your house?
A. No.
Q. Tuesday night?
A. No.
Q. All day long Wednesday?
A. No.
Q. Did you know Fruzetti, of Bridgewater, who was deported you said?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know him personally?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Been to his house?
A. I met him lots of times.
Q. In Boston?
A. In conference.
Q. Talked with him about anarchy, haven't you?
A. Certainly.
Q. Did you know his views on anarchy?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I object.
A. His words?
MR. KATZMANN.  Wait a minute.  It wasn't "words."
Q. Was his "views."  Don't answer.
THE COURT.  Supposing he should say he was a constitutionalist or something of that kind.  Doesn't that tend to attack his credibility that one of the reasons why there was to be a disposition to be made of these papers was on the ground this man had been deported, among others?
MR. JEREMIAH MCANARNEY.  He put that situation into one word.  The question puts this whole situation, frames it into one word.  I object to that question.
THE COURT.  What was the question?
MR. KATZMANN.  "Were you aware of his views-Fruzetti's views, with respect to anarchy?"
THE WITNESS.  We have an argument.
MR. KATZMANN.  Wait a minute.
THE COURT.  You may answer that by yes or no.
Q. Did -you know what they were, yes or no?
A. I can't answer yes or no,
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I object.
THE COURT.  You may answer.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Save an exception.
THE COURT.  Certainly.
Q. Did you know what they were?
MR.  JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  That is objected to.  The same question
MR. KATZMANN.  Yes, it is the same question repeated.
THE COURT.  You may answer.
THE WITNESS.  Repeat again, because I can't understand.
MR. KATZMANN.  All right.
Q. Did you know what Fruzetti's views were with respect to anarchy?
A. I just take Mr. Ross, please.
MR. KATZMANN.  All right, Mr. Ross.
Q. [Through the interpreter.] Were you aware of Fruzetti's views with respect to anarchy?
MR.  JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Mr. Ross, will you kindly keep your voice up.
MR. Ross.  All right.
MR. KATZMANN.  And you, too, Mr. Witness, keep your voice up.
A. Well, by the paper.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I do not want to rise too much.  This is the same question, if your Honor please, now, through the interpreter, that I objected to.
THE COURT.  This is simply a question of what he knows.  He may answer that by yes or no.
Q. As you learned his views by the paper, were your views the same?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  That I object to.
THE COURT.  Is that of any importance?
A. By the paper.
MR. KATZMANN.  Wait a minute.  On the question of fear of deportation.
THE COURT.  Did he say he was-
MR. KATZMANN.  Yes.  He said this man Fruzetti was deported.
THE COURT.  Exactly.  But has the witness said he was afraid that he personally might be deported?
MR. KATZMANN.  He said his friends; and I will ask him that.
Q. Were you afraid of deportation yourself on May 5th?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  That I object to.
THE COURT.  You may answer.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Save an exception.
THE COURT.  Certainly.
MR. KATZMANN.  The answer is "Yes, sir."
Q. Do you need Mr. Ross any more?
A. No.
Q. If you do, speak up.  Now, I repeat the views the same as Fruzetti's?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  That I object to.
THE COURT.  You may answer.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Exception.
MR. KATZMANN.  He said he knew them from the paper, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  That does not appear that because somebody's views may have been stated in the paper that, therefore, they were his.
MR. KATZMANN.  Very well.  I will withdraw that question..
Q. You say you have talked with Fruzetti?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In your talks with him, did you learn what his views were with respect to anarchy?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  That I object to.
THE COURT.  You may answer.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Will your Honor save an exception?
THE COURT.  Certainly.
A. The way he expressed, he was a very gentleman.
Q. Pardon me, sir.  I did not ask you that, whether he was a gentleman or not.  I asked you if you learned what his views were with respect to anarchy.
MR. KATZMANN.  I ask the other answer be stricken from the record, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  It may be.
Q. Yes or no, Mr. Sacco.  Did you find out what he thought about anarchy?
A. Why he find out?
Q. No. Did you find out from him what he thought, what his views were with respect to anarchy?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did your views coincide with his?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  That I object to.
THE COURT.  You may answer.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Kindly save an exception.
THE COURT.  Certainly.
THE WITNESS.  Repeat again.
Q. Did your views coincide with those of Fruzetti?
A. I don't get your,--I can't get you.
Q. I will put it easier.  Were your views the same as his?
A. I don't think we agree just the same way.  In some ways different, anyway.
Q. Were your views with respect to anarchy substantially the same as Fruzetti's?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  That is the same objection.
A. I could not say if I do.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I do dislike to be getting up.
THE COURT.  I would rather you make an objection and then we will know where we stand on each question.
Q. What is your answer?
THE COURT.  You may answer.
A. I could not see as far as he could.
Q. As far as you could see, did you go along the same path with him?
Did you have the same views, as far as you could see them?  A. Men never,-men can see far to last--
MR. KATZMANN.  I don't understand.  Mr. Ross please, unless you object to him.  I want to make sure we have your answer.
Q. The question, perhaps,-do you understand the question?
A. Yes.
Q. All right.  What is the answer?
A. [Through the interpreter.] A man, in order to be of the same opinion and to have the same ideas, he should read the books what anarchists means.
[The witness talks to the interpreter, after saying "No."]
THE WITNESS. [Through the interpreter.] A man must read his books to the extreme, the extreme, the foundation of those books, then to know what anarchist means.'
MR. KATZMANN.  I ask that be stricken out, if your Honor please, as not being responsive.
Q. Now, will you please pay attention to my question.
THE COURT.  The defendant Vanzetti wants to speak to one of his counsel.
MR. KATZMANN.  Shall I suspend, your Honor?
THE COURT.  You better, for a minute.  Shall we proceed, Mr. Moore?  All right.
MR. KATZMANN.  Yes?
The question is this: as far as you understood Fruzetti's views, were yours the same?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  To that I object.
THE COURT.  You may inquire.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Save an exception.
THE COURT.  Certainly.
Q. Answer, please.  A. [ Through the interpreter.] I cannot say yes or no.
Q. Is it because you can't or because you don't want to?
A. [Through the interpreter.] Because it is a very delicate question.
Q. It is very delicate, isn't it, because he was deported for his views?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I object.
MR. KATZMANN.  I withdraw it.
Q. Was Fruzetti deported for his views?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  To that I object, too.
THE COURT.  Didn't you bring out the fact that Fruzetti was deported ?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Yes, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  Now, is he limited to that so that he cannot make inquiry with reference to Fruzetti, about this deportation about which you have inquired?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  No.
THE COURT.  For instance, supposing it should turn out that he had no views, anarchistic or anything of that kind, as bearing on the credibility of the witness, because that is one of the reasons that I understand caused the collection of the literature, because he was one of the men who had been deported.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Fruzetti may have been deported for having one of these periodicals in his house.  He may have been deported for many things
THE COURT.  See if he knows the reason.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. [Continuing.] -that have not appeared.
Q. Do you know why Fruzetti was deported?
A. [Through the interpreter.] Yes.
Q. Was it because he was of Anarchistic opinions?
THE INTERPRETER.  He says he understands it now.
Q. Was it because Fruzetti entertained anarchistic opinions?
A. One reason, he was an anarchist.  Another reason, Fruzetti been writing all the time on the newspapers, and I am not sure why the reason he been deported.
Q. You do not know which of the two it was?
A. Yes.
Q. You did not read that in your paper?
A Probably I forget.  Probably I miss that, I don't know.
Q. Wasn't it the fact on record,--on consideration isn't it the fact that he was deported because he held and entertained anarchistic views?
A. Yes.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  That I object to.
THE COURT.  You are referring to a record now.  Of course, he can't testify as to what the record was.
Q. Who was the other man?  Oh, pardon me.  Was Fruzetti, before deportation, a subscriber to the same papers that you had in your house on May 5th?
A. Probably he is.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I object, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  Is that of much consequence?  He already stated why Fruzetti was deported.
MR. KATZMANN.  Perhaps it isn't.  Yes, I think that is correct.
Q. Who was the other man that you said was deported from Bridgewater?
A. I did not say; I am sure there is another man been deported, but I do not know the name.
Q. See if I can refresh your recollection.  Was it Ferruccio Coacei?
A. He is one.  There is another one.
Q. Who was the other man?
A. I do not remember the name.
Q. Now, you said, did you not, this morning, the first thing when recalled to the stand, that it was your plan to go to Brockton that night, May 5th, and warn your friends to have these books, circulars and papers in the valise ready to be taken out?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes.  Were those persons to whom you intended to go that Wednesday night, subscribers to the same paper that you were, same papers?
A. Have got any literature?
Q. Have you seen the literature they had?
A. Men love an idea, socialist or anarchist, any other thing they had.
Q. You believed they had that night?
A. Sure.
Q. You believed they had books similar to yours, too, did you not?
A. Because some
Q. Pardon me.  Answer that question.  Did you believe that they had in their homes books similar to the ones you had in your house?
A. Yes.
Q. And the books which you intended to collect were books relating to anarchy, weren't they?
A. Not all of them.
Q. How many of them?
A. Well, all together.  We are Socialists, democratic, any other socialistic information, Socialists, Syndicalists, Anarchists, any paper.
Q. Bolshevist?
A. I do not know what Bolshevism means.
Q. Soviet?
A. I do not know what Soviet means.
Q. Communism?
A. Yes.  I got some on astronomy, too.
Q. I did not ask you what you had.  You weren't afraid the books of astronomy were going to be taken by anybody, were you?
A. No.
Q. You knew I did not mean that, didn't you?  You understood I didn't mean that, didn't you?  Will you answer that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Nor any books you had on arithmetic or spelling, either.  Did you
expect the officers of the law were going to seize your wife's cook book?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you afraid to have those books and those papers in your house?
A. At that time.
Q. In that time.  On May 5th.
A. Well, all the rest.
Q. All during the reaction?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you mean before May 5th, don't you?
A. Yes, at the time.
Q. How long before May 5th?
A. I should say a couple of weeks.  Three weeks, a month.
Q. You never made a move to take them out of your house, did you?
A. We never heard before.
Q. You heard on May 2d, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You were home that night, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. It was a matter of ten or fifteen minutes to get them out, wasn't it?
A. Oh, no.
Q. A half hour?
A. Oh, no.
Q. An hour?
A. Where was I going to bring them?
Q. Weren't there woods by your house?
A. I don't want to destroy because I love those books.
Q. You weren't going to destroy them?
A. I was going to keep them.
Q. You were going to keep them and when the time was over, you were going to bring them out again, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were going to distribute circulars?
A. Education literature.
Q. And you were going to distribute circulars, weren't you?
A. It cost money to sacrifice.
Q. You were going to distribute those papers, weren't you?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  The question, were you?
Q. Were you?
A. What do you mean, destroy?
Q. No, not destroy him.  After the time had gone by, were you going to bring them out, going to distribute the knowledge contained in them?
A. Certainly, because they are educational for book, educational.
Q. An education in anarchy, wasn’t it?
A. Why, certainly. Anarchistic is not criminals.
Q. I didn’t ask you that if they are criminals or not.  Nor are you to pass upon that sir.  Was it equally true as to the books and papers and periodicals that you expected to pick up at your friend’s houses, that they were not to be destroyed?
A. Just to keep them, hide them.
Q. And then bring them forth afterwards when the time was over?
A. I suppose so.
Q. That was your plan, wasn’t it?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that Vanzetti’s plan too?
A. I suppose so.
Q. Was it Boda’s plan?
A. I suppose so.
Q. An d was it Orcciani plan?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember saying yesterday that your real purpose and intent on May 5th was to gather them up that night in the auto?
A. If we had the time.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Wait a minute.
THE WITNESS. If they have the time.
Q. That is what you said. I just repeated what you said.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. May I get the last?
Q. Weren’t you going to help gather them up?
A. In the night, the same night, yes.
Q. The same night.  And didn’t you state yesterday, without any reservation, that that is what you went to get the auto for that night?
A. Yes.
Q. There wasn’t any talk yesterday when you were on the stand about Vanzetti and Boda going to Plymouth in the auto, was there, from you?
A. No, but I know they were going to.
Q. I want to know if when you were testifying yesterday as to what you four men were going to do that night, to wit, going to collect books and periodicals that night, I want to know if when you said that yesterday you knew that Vanzetti was going to Plymouth with Boda?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why didn’t you say so yesterday?
A. They did not ask me.  Did they ask me that?
Q. Weren’t you asked what your purpose was that night, by your own counsel?
A. The counsel, I suppose, did not ask me at all.
Q. You think he did not ask you?
A. If I was going to Plymouth.
Q. These questions when answering when you said you were going to get the books that night?
A. I do not remember if I did say or not.
Q. Did you say anything yesterday about Boda and Vanzetti going to Plymouth that night?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you say anything yesterday about your going back to have the circulars of the May 9th meeting printed?
A. Yes.
Q. That night, May 5th, did you say?
A. Yes.
Q. You intended,--yesterday did you say you intended to go back to Brockton that night with Orcciani?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you say you intended to visit friends in Brockton and advise them to put their books and periodicals in valises ready for the next day?  Did you say that yesterday?
A. Yes.
Q. You are sure of that, Mr. Sacco?
A. Yes, sir, pretty sure.
Q. Are you dead sure of it?
A. I am pretty sure.
Q. Are you certain of it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you come to a realization over night last night that Vanzetti had said you were not going to get books that night and that yesterday you said you were?  Did you thin that over during the night?
A. I says if we had the time, if they had that time early.
Q. No, pardon me.  Last night when you left this court room, and before you came back this morning, did you realize you had said one thing and in that regard Vanzetti said another?  Did you realize that Vanzetti said you were not going to collect that night and that you had said you were going to collect in the auto?  Did you think that over last night?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Do you claim Vanzetti said that he, Sacco, was going to collect, or that he, Vanzetti, was?  Your question is to him “Did you?”
MR. KATZMANN. I claim that Vanzetti said they were not going to collect any books or periodicals that night.  This man said yesterday they were.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  The question was, did Vanzetti say that you were going to collect?”  Vanzetti did not say that.
MR. KATZMANN.  Vanzetti said yes and this man said yes.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Now, you say “you.”
THE COURT. Put your question now, please.
Q. Did Vanzetti say the four of you, four of you were not going to collect books May 5th?
A. Well, if he had the time, the chance early to get the automobile to get to Plymouth to find a place where he could put it, why sure, he would get the books.
Q. Didn’t he say that the intended—that he had not—that he was going to make inquiry at Plymouth the next day and that it was not their intention to collect until he found a place to hide the books.  Didn’t Vanzetti say that?  A. Probably I mistake or probably Vanzetti is right.
Q. I am not asking you if you are mistaken.  I am asking you if Vanzetti said that, if he said you four were not going to collect, that he had not arranged for a hiding place, that he was going to Plymouth and arrange for it and collect afterwards?
A. Yes.
Q. And didn’t you say that, on the contrary, that if you got the auto that night the four of you were going to collect books that night?
A. If we have the time, yes.
Q. Did Orcciani wear a mackinaw of the night of May 5th?
A. Mackinaw?
Q. Mackinaw,--short reefer, heavy coat?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. I show you a picture.  Is that a picture of Orcciani.
A. [Witness examines picture.]  Yes, that is him.
Q. Is that an accurate picture of him?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you make out what the coat is he has got on in that picture?
A. I couldn’t say.
Q. Is that the coat he had on when he was brought to the police station under arrest?
A. I couldn’t say.  I don’t remember.
Q. Is that the coat he had on in West Bridgewater on the night of May 5th?
A. I couldn’t say.
Q. Did you ever see that gun, that revolver, Exhibit 27, prior to the 5th day of May, 1920?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you take that revolver off the person of Alessandro Berardelli when he lay down on the sidewalk in front of the Rice & Hutchins building?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you mean that, Mr. Sacco?
A. Yes, sir, I mean it.
Q. Did you know Alessandro Berardelli?
A. No, sir.
Q. When did you first hear of him?
A. The 16th, the morning.
Q. The morning of the 16th?
A. Or 17th, I mean exactly.
THE COURT. Of what month?
THE WITNESS. April.
Q. Do you remember my asking you on the evening of May 6th:  “Q. Do you know Alessandro Berardelli?” And your reply: “A. No; who is this Berardelli?”
Do you remember my asking you that question at the Brockton Police station on May 6th?
A. What I did say?
Q. “No. –Who is this Alessandro Berardelli?”
A. I don’t know.
Q. You knew who he was on the 16th or 17th of April, didn’t you?
A. Probably I forgot.
Q. Did I ask you on May 6th if you knew who he was, and did you make that reply?
A. No, sir.  You did not ask me.
Q. Do you say, Mr. Sacco, that I did not ask you this question:
Q. You paid money for it?
A. Yes.
Q. How much?
A. I should say about $16.
Q. And you went right in a store openly and bought it, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. There was nothing to conceal about that transaction was there?
A. No, sir.
Q. No reason why you should falsify to me about that, was there?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. What was the reason?
A. The reason was,--you mean the reason I don't give you my name?
Q. No. The reason you did not tell me the truth about it?
A. Where to buy?
Q. Yes, where you bought it?  And where you bought it,--when and where you bought it.  What is the reason you did not tell me the truth about it when I asked you at the Brockton Police station?
A. Probably I did not remember at the time.
Q. You did not remember?  Then it wasn't any reason of truth, was it? You did not remember at all when you talked with me where you bought it?
A. At that time, no.
Q. When I asked you where you bought it, did you say, "I don't remember"?
A. No, sir.
Q. What did you say when ask you where you bought it?
A. I didn't say,--I bought that in Boston, if I remember..
Q. Then if you did not remember and it was an open purchase in a store, why did you tell me an untruth about it?
A. Well, I thought I buy in Boston.
Q. You thought you bought it in Boston?
A. Yes.
Q. You just told me you did not remember that night where I asked you where you bought it.  Well, let us see.  Do you remember my asking you this question:
"Q. How long have you owned this automatic gun, revolver?
"A. About two years."
Did you make that reply?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember, this next question:
"Q. Where did you get it?
A. Boston."
Do you remember that reply?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that statement you made true?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you know it was untrue when you made it to me?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then it wasn't because you had forgotten, was it?
A. [Witness hesitates.]
Q. Was it, Mr. Sacco?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why did you falsify to me about such an innocent transaction as that?
A. Do you want me to answer that?
Q. I want you to answer it.  That is what I am asking you for.
A. Because I didn't,--because men could get one year imprisonment for that.
Q. You thought you could escape one year imprisonment when they found a revolver on you by saying you bought it in Boston instead of Milford.  Do you mean that, Mr. Sacco?
A. Well, I don't think I did remember at that time.
Q. You don't think you did remember.  It was entirely an innocent mistake, was it?  A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever own more than that one Colt automatic, .32?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember my then asking you: "Q. Whereabouts in Boston?"
And your reply:
"A. On Hanover Street, where they sell revolvers."
Did you say that to me?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you think that was where you bought it?
A. That is where I was thinking.
Q. That is where you were thinking.  Do you remember my asking you:
"Q. What is the name of the place?"
And your answer:
"A. I don't remember."
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember the question:
"Q. What part of Hanover Street?
A. About halfway on Hanover Street."
Did you make that answer?
A. Yes.
Q. And were you thinking then that was where it was?
A. That is where I was thinking.
Q. Innocently mistaken, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You got confused with the middle of Hanover Street and Milford, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. It was an entirely innocent mistake, wasn't it?
A. No, because I did not remember.
Q. Why didn't you say you did not remember?
A. I don't know why I didn't say it.
Q. Why did you try to deceive me?
A. I did not try to deceive.
Q. Mr. Sacco, didn't I treat you with the utmost consideration and courtesy that night?
A. What do you mean?
Q. Didn't I personally treat you when I asked you these questions with the utmost consideration and courtesy?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any reason why you should not have treated me with fairness, Mr. Sacco?
A. Well, I could not, remember exactly where it was.
Q, Why didn't you say you could not?
A. Probably you forced me to say some things.  That is why I did.
Q. Did I force you to say that?
A. Probably.
Q. You heard the questions, didn't you, that I can't remember the words.
Q. These are the questions:
"How long have you owned this gun?"
"Where did you get it?"
"Whereabouts in Boston?"
"What is the name of the place?"
"What part of Hanover Street?"
A. Probably I understood it wrong.
Q. Was anybody forcing you to answer those questions?
A. There must be.
Q. Were they?
A. If I say that, they must be.
Q. Do you remember what I said to you?  Were you introduced to the interpreter, Mr. Minini?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember my saying:
"My name, Mr. Sacco, is Mr. Katzmann, and I am the District Attorney in this district.  You are under arrest, and you are not under obligation to speak or answer any questions that I ask you at all.  I should like to ask you some questions, perhaps a good many.  You may answer them or you may refuse to answer them and it is entirely your right to refuse.  It is for you to decide.  Whatever you may say may be used in court against you, but you are under no obligation whatever to answer any questions that I or anybody else here may ask you.  Has the interpreter fully explained to you what I have said ?"  Did I say that to you before I asked you more than, yes, the two questions?- "Do you speak English?
A. A little."- "Would you like an interpreter?  A. Yes, I would like,"-and then I started the question: "Mr. Minini is the interpreter," and said that to you.  Isn't that true?
A. I remember that.
Q. That is true?
A. Yes, but you know the other, the first.
Q. "Do you speak English?" You don't remember that?
A. I remember that a little.
Q. But you don't remember my saying those two first things to you?
A. Before?
Q. Yes.
A. I couldn't say exactly.
Q. Did I say that in substance to you?
A. Probably you did say, but I don't remember.
Q. Didn't I tell you in substance that you did not have to answer?
THE COURT, Why is it not fair to take these questions separately?
MR. KATZMANN.  It was not a question.  It was all in one long preliminary statement by myself to him.
THE COURT.  One question, was it?
MR. KATZMANN. Yes.  I read just what I said in the one statement.
Q. Didn't I say that to you, Mr. Sacco?
A. Probably, Mr. Katzmann, you did say, but I don't remember.
Q. All right.  You were making an innocent mistake on Hanover Street, weren't you, when you talked with me?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember this question:
"Q. Going down Hanover Street from Tremont Row, which side of the street is it on?"
referring to the store where you said you bought.  Do you remember your answer:
"A. On the right-hand side going towards the North End." Did you say that?
A. Probably I did.
Q. Were you innocently mistaken when you said that?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes.  Do you remember my then asking you:  "Q. Was it a new revolver when you bought it?  A. I don't know, but I think it was new.  I bought it very cheap."
Did you say that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember my then asking you:
"Q. How much did you pay for it?  A. Sixteen or seventeen."  Did you say that?  A. $16 or $17?
Q. Yes.  I suppose it means dollars.  I assume it does.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember my then asking you:  "Q. What name did you give when you bought it?  A. I know I did not give my name, but I do not remember the name."
Did you say that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. "You gave them another name?  A. I was afraid to give my name, afraid I would be arrested." Did you say that?
A. Yes.
Q. And were all these,--is that an innocent mistake?  Was that true, that you were afraid to give your name and afraid that you would be arrested?  Was that the truth?  A. That is the truth.
Q. Yes.  Did you hear Michael Kelley, the father of the boys, testify on the stand?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you hear him say that when you did night watchman duty you told him you had gotten a permit to carry a revolver?
A. He asked me if I had a permit.
Q. Did you tell him that you had?
A. No.
Q. Did you hear him say that you said, "Yes," you had gotten a permit from Mr. Van Sant?
A. I did not hear that.
MR, JEREMIAH McANARNEY, I do not think the record will show it.
THE WITNESS.  He told me to get it.
MR. KATZMANN.  I am informed by counsel that I am misquoting the evidence.
THE COURT, Then withdraw the question and look up the record and see what the answer of the witness was.
MR. KATZMANN, Yes.
Q. Do you remember my asking you about the cartridges you now say were in the open box when you bought it?
A. Yes.
Q. "Q. Where did you get the cartridges for this?  A. I don't remember where I bought the cartridges."
Was that true you did not remember?  A. It was not true.
Q. It was not true.  Then, on that point you were trying to deceive me, weren't you?  A. Yes.
Q. You were deliberately telling me a falsehood, weren't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But on the gun, that was an innocent mistake?
A. Yes.
Q. "Q. Did you buy them at the same place?  A. In the same store.  I don't know if I bought the cartridges in the same place.  I don't remember."
Was that true?
A. No.
Q. You did remember where you bought them, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Where had you bought them?
A. Cartridges?
Q. Yes.  A. Hanover Street.
Q. Whereabouts on Hanover Street?
A. Near the police station, little far.
Q. Which side going from Tremont Row, left or right, Scollay Square, whatever it may be called?
A. On the right side, when you go back.
Q. Opposite the police station?
A. Yes, there is a police station over there.
Q. What is the name of that place?
A. I don't know the name, but I know it is.  They sell guns and ammunition.
Q. What is the number of the store?
A. I don't remember.
Q. When did you buy the cartridges?
A. I do not remember the day.
Q. Since you have owned that automatic, how many boxes of cartridges have you bought?
A. Two, I guess.
Q. Two.  Do you remember my asking you then:
"Q.  Did you buy a new box of cartridges?  A. Yes, a new box."  Did you say that?  A. Yes.
Q. Was that true?
A. No, sir.
Q. And why didn't You tell me the truth about that?
A. [Witness hesitates.] Probably I did not remember at that time.
Q. You just said you did not remember where you bought the cartridges, hadn't you?  A. Yes.
Q. Why didn't you say it then?
A. Every time I can't remember exactly.
Q. Mr. Sacco, isn't the real reason why you now say it was not a new box because since May 6th you found out there was four different kinds of cartridges in the 32 of them?  Isn't that the real reason, Mr. Sacco?
A. No.
Q. Has it anything to do with your change of what you are now saying and what you said to me?
A. No, sir.
Q. Has it anything to do with trying to deceive me at Brockton?
A. No, sir.
Q. The fact there are four different kinds doesn't make any difference?
A. No difference to me, because I did not know it.
Q. You did not know it May 6th, did you?
A. May 6th?
Q. Yes.  You did not know there were four kinds that night, did you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you remember my asking you then:  "
Q. An unopened box?
A. It was a brand new box."
Did you tell me that?
A. Probably I did.  I don't remember.
Q. Was it true?
A. It was not true, if I did.
Q. Do you say you did not?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you remember my asking you:  "Q. Did you ever buy more than one box?
A. I think one."
Do you remember saying that?
A. Probably I did.
Q. Do you remember this one?  "Q. Did you ever fire any of those cartridges off."
And your answer:
"A. Yes.  Out in the woods."
Do you remember saying that?
A. Yes.
Q. Then my asking you:  "Q. Did you fire off the whole box?  A. More than one box."  Did you say that?  A.    Probably I did.
Q. Do you remember my asking you:  "Q. Where did you buy the box that the cartridges came from that were in the gun when you were arrested?
A. I don't remember."
Do you remember saying that?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that true, that you did not remember?
A. It was not true.
Q.  You knew that that was on Hanover Street, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q.  Why did you tell that falsehood to me?
A. [Witness hesitates.]
MR. KATZMANN.  Well, I will withdraw that question and ask you this one.
Q. Would a truthful answer to that question, where you bought the cartridges, helped us find the names and addresses of those friends who had the literature?
A. I did not get that.
Q. If you told me the truth about that box, would it have helped to give us the names and addresses of the friends of yours who had the literature?
A. No, sir.
Q. Skipping two or three questions,-- I will read, if you want them, until I come to this one: Q. Have you used up the whole of the last box?
A. That is all that was left.  Just as I had to go to Italy I thought I would use them, go out in the woods and shoot them off."
Did you say that?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that true?
A. That was true.
Q. That that was all that remained of the last box?
A. Yes.
Q. They came out of one new box?
A. -No.
Q. They did not come out of one new box, did they?
A. No.
Q. Did you buy a secondhand box of cartridges on Hanover Street?
A. No secondhand.  But it was at the time of the war.  You could not buy any cartridges if you paid $10 a box, so I just see,-I don't know, he took and mixed together and give me a box.
Q. Why didn't you tell me that that night?
A. I don't know if I did remember at that time.
Q. You remembered you bought more than one box on Hanover Street, didn't you?  A. No. I did buy one box in Milford and one box on Hanover Street.
Q. This exhibit, you say, comprises part of the contents of the box bought on Hanover Street?
A. Yes.
Q. Why didn't you tell me the truth about it?
A. I don't think I could remember at that time.
Q. You don't think you could remember at that time, you could remember you bought the box there, couldn't you?  Couldn't you, Mr. Sacco?
A. I guess so.
Q. And you remember I asked you if it was a new box, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And an unopened box?
A. Yes.
Q. And you could not remember that it was not, and you told me what was untrue, didn't you?
A. It was not true.
Q. What?
A. It was not true.
Q. It was not true.  I have asked you why you told me that.  Can you answer that question?
A. I don't see the way I could answer.
Q. Mr. Sacco, there isn't any answer you can give for that?  There isn't any answer you could give to that that has anything to do with names and addresses of Socialists or Anarchists, is there?
A. No.
Q. That isn't the reason you falsified to me, is it?
A. No.
Q. What pocket,--where did you carry that gun that night?
A. Over here [indicating].
Q. Where did you carry the gun when that day you went out or you were going to go out and do some shooting in the woods with it?
A. I put it over here [indicating].
Q. In there?
A. Yes.
Q. Just put it in, will you, please, Mr. Sacco?
A. [Witness does so.] When I have a vest on.
Q. Did you go out of that house not knowing you had the gun in your pants,-the waistband in your pants?
A. Well, I know I have it when I was going to shoot.  Then I forgot.
Q. Yes.  But did you have it in the waistband of your trousers when you sat down to supper?
A. Yes.  In the night.
Q. Yes.  And then did you get up and go out to take the car?
A. Yes.
Q. Didn't you know you had it in the waistband of your trousers, then?
A. I forget.
Q. You forget?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you carry that revolver pretty much of the time?
A. Well, yes, sometimes when I was living in the country.
Q. You had been living in the country since 1918, hadn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you carry that gun back and forth to work at the shop?
A. Never.  When I was in the night watchman, yes.
Q. I mean, say, the last six months.  You were not watching nights that winter, were you?
A. No.
Q. You had not watched the Kelley place since the winter of 1918 and 1919, had you?
A. Yes.
Q. You did not watch, did you, in the winter of 1920?
A. No.
Q. No. Well, then, did you carry the gun,--you say you did not carry the gun when you went to work there?
A. No.
Q. Except the preceding winter.  Did you carry the gun, Mr. Sacco, when you went out Sundays?
A. Sometimes I went out on Saturday.  I used to buy grocery in Boston.  In the afternoon, Saturday afternoon, I used to carry the gun.
Q. Wasn't it a pretty unusual thing for you to carry the gun?
A. Well, it is, but men have to defend themselves.  In the country you don't know what you need.
Q. What did you carry the gun there for?
A. Well, I carry that because I don't think they could not find.  Any man could get one year's imprisonment.  By walking they could find very easy by the pocket, in my back pocket, I suppose.
Q. Twenty years in prison?
A. One year.
Q. Is that why you carried it there?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the fact you could whip it out quick have anything to do with it?
A. No.
Q. That wasn't the reason?
A. No.
Q. Now, will you let me have it?
A. Sure.
Q. Were those cartridges of perceptible weight in your pocket, the extra ones, when you went away that night?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you telling this jury that you were not aware of the fact when you left your house on May 5th that you had this gun tucked in here?  Are you telling them that?  A. Yes.
Q. Did not perceive the weight of it?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did not notice it?
A. No.
Q. did not notice 22 extra cartridges in your pocket?
A. No.
THE COURT.  We will stop here for lunch.

[Noon recess.]

Cross-Examination, Resumed.

Q. [By Mr. Katzmann.] Under what name did you work at Rice & Hutchins' factory after you returned?
A. Nicola Mosmacotelli.
Q. Nicola Mosmacotelli?
A. Yes.
Q. In what department did you work?
A. I forget what they call the department, but where they stitch and edge trimmer.
Q. Were you doing edge trimming?
A. No, no.
Q. What were you doing?
A. Channeling.
Q. Channeling?
A. Yes, channeling.
Q. Was that in the brick building or the wooden building?
A. The building near the railroad.
Q. The one that is nearest to the railroad track?
A. Yes.
Q. What floor were you working on?
A. I think it is the third floor.
Q. Third floor?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any money in your pocket on April 15th?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have that automatic with you on the 15th of April?
A. 15th of April?
Q. Yes.
A. No, sir.
Q. When was the last time prior to the 15th of April, 1920,--that is the April I meant before--
A. Yes.
Q. [Continued.] --that you had the gun on your person?
A. You mean carry in my pocket?
Q. Carry it any place, in your pocket, in your waistband.
A. It would be some Saturday before after I went in Boston to get my groceries, I don't remember-.  I used to buy groceries sometimes in Brockton.  Sometimes I used to go in Boston, where I buy most of the groceries.
Q. Most of them in Boston?
A. Yes.
Q. The last time prior to that date you bought groceries in Boston, did you carry your gun with you?
A. If I go back home in the night early, late, I am sure.
Q. I did not ask you that.  I said the last time you went to Boston to buy groceries, prior to that date, did you carry your gun with you?
A. What date do you mean?
Q. The last day, whatever the date was?
A. I should say yes if I go back to the house late, about eleven o'clock, from the train, the last train.
Q. Did you go back late the last time before the 15th?
A. I don't remember.
Q. That is what I am trying to find out.  When was the last time prior to the 15th you brought groceries home?
A. I guess a couple of weeks before, if I ain't mistaken.
Q. What day of the week?
A. Saturday.
Q. Were you out of the shop, that is, not working, on the first day of April, 1920, which was just two weeks before the 15th, the very first day of the month, and it happens to be a Thursday, just two weeks before the 15th?
A. I can't remember exactly, but I know I been out a half day between the last of March and the beginning of April.  I won't say exactly the beginning of April or March, but sometime like that.
Q. Were you in Brockton on that half day with the defendant Vanzetti in a Buick automobile?
A. No, sir.
Q. Down right near where you change cars in the centre of Brockton?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know how to go from the city hall in Brockton to the town of Whitman?  A. No.
Q. If you were in an automobile at any time--I don't mean that date, but today, at the city hall in Brockton and you were driving that car, would you have to ask somebody how to get to Whitman from there?
A. Yes....
Q. (By Mr. Katzmann.) You saw Mrs. Ruth Johnson on the stand here, did you not and you now know her by name and by sight?
A. Yes.
Q. On the night that I talked with you at Brockton, was she brought into the room where you and I were?
A. Yes.
Q. And shown to you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And were you asked if you had ever seen that lady before?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember what you said?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you say?
A. I said I never saw her before.
Q. Was that true?
A. I could not recognize the face, because probably I did not say in the dark,--a woman, but I could not say if it was her or somebody else.
Q. When you were at West Bridgewater on the night of May 5th and you first came up to Orcciani on the motor cycle
A. Yes.
Q, --which way was the headlight of that motor cycle facing?
A. Facing Bridgewater.
Q. Facing Bridgewater?
A. Yes.
Q. And did it turn around while you were there and face in the opposite direction?  A. I guess they turned around when they went away, if I don't make a mistake.
Q. Now, that there may be no mistake, when you say "Bridgewater" do you mean facing back towards Elm Square?
A. Yes.
Q. You understand that?
A. Yes.
Q. And that Brockton would be exactly in the opposite direction?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, isn't it the fact that when Boda and Orcciani went away from the Johnson house they went down toward Elm Square?
A. No.
Q, Did you hear Mr. Vanzetti testify yesterday?
A. They turned around the car and went to Brockton.
Q. That is, you and Vanzetti.  I did not mean that.  Do you mean Boda and-
A. Orcciani, yes.
Q. -and Orcciani?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you certain of that?
A. Certainly.
Q. When they turned around, Boda and Orcciani and went toward Brockton, was Mrs. Johnson then out in the street?
A. No.
Q. Had she gone in her house then?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you say that when you were up near the Johnson house and the motor cycle, that when Mrs. Johnson--if she be the lady who was coming back to her house-when she was coming back to her house, the motor cycle light was not then playing toward Brockton, shining in the direction of Brockton?
A. No. Shining to Bridgewater.
Q. Were you right at the motor cycle when she went by?
A. I should say we were about, kind of walking near the motor cycle.
Q. Walking?
A. Well, stepping, you know, about naturally; do a couple of steps.
Q. Stepping naturally?
A. Yes.
Q. But you were talking, weren't you, to Orcciani?
A. Sometimes.  Not all the time.  Sometimes Vanzetti or Orcciani.
Q. Well, you were right there?
A. Yes, we were right there.
Q. And you were there for five to eight minutes, weren't you, before the lady came by?
A. No.
Q. How long do you say you were there before you saw a lady go by that motor cycle?
A. I saw the lady come down from Brockton way and when I reached,--the first time I reached the motor cycle I saw her half way coming.  It was about from here (indicating) to the wall.  Then she go by and went right in the house.
Q. Wasn't Vanzetti right with you then?
A. Yes, he was with me.
Q. Don't you say that it wasn't for five to eight minutes before she came at  all?
A. I don't think so.
Q. Are you sure?
A. It was about two minutes, I think.
Q. Two minutes.
A. One or two.
Q. Were you at the motor cycle when she went by it?
A. Yes.
Q. And was the motor cycle on the side of the street she came down?
A. Yes.
Q. The house side of the street?
A. Yes, outside in the street.
Q. Opposite from the street railway track?
A. The railroad track right here (indicating).
Q. Yes.
A. The street right here (indicating).
Q. Yes.
A. And the motor cycle right here (indicating).
Q. On the opposite side of the track?
A. Yes.  She go by this way (indicating).
Q. How close did she come to the motor cycle?
A. I could not say, Mr. Katzmann.  I could not say if it is about 15 feet.
Q. Fifteen feet?
A. Fifteen or twenty feet away, I guess.  I don't know how much she go by.
Q. On the house side of the motor cycle?
A. No. Just go by like that (indicating).
Q. I mean on the same side of the street the motor cycle was on.
A. Yes.
Q. Wasn't the motor cycle right at the edge of the grass?
A. No.
Q. Where was it?
A. It was on the road.
Q. How far out?
A. Oh, pretty near, I should say, about a foot or foot and a half. or two foot out in the, grass.
Q. Oh. Well, then, she could not have been 15 feet away, could she?
A. I think 10 feet; from here (indicating) to Mr. Moore.
Q. Were you and Vanzetti standing with Orcciani when she went by?
A. I could not say the particular minute.  I don't know.  We were over there, anyway, around there.
Q. Didn't she walk down?  Wasn't the light on her when she went toward the house?  A. Yes.
Q. Didn't you see her then?
A. We didn't pay no attention.
Q. You just noticed her?
A. That is all.
Q. Well, did you know when I was asking,-did I ask you about that lady at the police station?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you know when I was asking you that I was referring to the lady who walked by the motor cycle?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you tell me the truth about it?
A. No, sir.
Q. You thought, didn't you, when you saw Mrs. Johnson on the 6th of May at the Brockton police station, that she was the lady who went by you with the motor cycle?  A. I thought, yes.
Q. Then when I asked you this question, if I did ask it, and I will ask you to tell me whether I did,
"Q. Didn't you see this lady walk along the street and walk back?"  Pardon me.  Strike that out.  That is erroneous.  I left out a word.
"Q. Didn't you see this lady and walk along the street and walk back when she walked back last night?"
Did I ask you that question?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you say,  "A. No, sir, we walk about an hour and we did not see anything?
Did you tell me that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was false, wasn't it?
A. Yes, it was false.
Q. Do you remember this question:  "Q. This woman that was sitting in here"
When I say that I mean the woman who was sitting in the room at the Brockton police station where you and I were.  A. Yes.
"Q. This woman that was sitting in here says you followed her across the street last -night when she went to a neighbor's house and that you walked up and down and that she knows you.  Why don't you tell the truth?"
Did I ask you that question?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you say, "That is not true"?
A. Yes.
Q. It was true, wasn't it?
A. It was not true I followed her.
Q. Do you say, Mr. Sacco, that you were not up there when Boda knocked at the  front door of the Johnson house, you and Vanzetti?  Do you say you weren't right there in the street coming off the bridge when Boda knocked at the front door?
A. I did not hear the knock.  I hear talk.  They have a conversation with Mr. Johnson.
Q. Is it not the fact that while you were in the street before you got up to where Orcciani was that that lady came out of her front door and went up to the next house?  A. I did not see her come out of another house.  I saw her coming some way but I could not see if she came from that house, I could not point.
Q. How many times did you see her that -night?
A. One time.
Q. You say you were only there two minutes before you saw her?
A. I should say yes, one or two minutes.
Q. Is that true?
A. That is true.
Q. You weren't there any shorter time were you, then Vanzetti?
A. I should say no.
Q. He came along with you?
A. Yes.
Q. You walked side by side coming up there, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember my asking you this question:
Q. "Q. This woman never saw you before.  Why should she lie about you?" and your answer, "A. Well, maybe somebody else and her wants to blame me."
Was it somebody, did you make that answer?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Was it somebody else that was there or was it yourself ?
A. That was myself.
Q. Did you say yesterday that you heard Boda say that he could not get the car because he did not have any number plates?
A. Yes.  Something like that, when he have a conversation with Mr. Johnson.
Q. With Mr. Johnson?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you hear Mr. Johnson talking with him?
A. No, I did not see him.
Q. Then did you hear Mr. Boda further say to Mr. Johnson, "Well, I will take the chance"?  Did you hear Boda say that?
A. I won't say yes.
Q. Will you say Boda did not say it?
A. Probably he did, but I don't hear.
MR. KATZMANN.  All right.  You better leave it that way, hadn't you?
Q. When you were talking with me on the night of May 6th, you knew, did you not, that Orcciani was right in the same police station you and I were in, under arrest?
A. The second night?
Q. Second night, the 6th of May?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew he was there?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew we had him in Custody, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember saying yesterday in court here that on May 5th Orcciani and Boda came to your house, the both of them came to your house?
A. Yes.
Q. You said that yesterday?
A. The 5th of May.
Q. Did you say yesterday that on the 4th of May, Tuesday, when you came out with your passport, that you went to Orcciani's house?
A. Yes.
Q. And that you went there for the purpose of getting a message from Boda?
A. Yes.
Q. About his car?
A. Yes.
Q. It is a fact, isn't it, that you knew Boda for three years before you were arrested, that is true, that you knew him well?
A. Not very much.
Q. Where did he live May 5, 1920?
A. I don't know.
Q. Are you certain you did not know?
A. Well, why, I hear he was living with Coacci.
Q. When did you hear that?
A. I don't; remember the day when I hear that.
Q. Was it before or after your arrest?
A. I think it was after I got arrested.
Q. Then my question is, the night that you were arrested did you then know that night where Boda lived?
A. No, sir.
Q. You are sure of that?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you known before that night that at one time he lived in Hyde Park with Orcciani?
A. No, sir.
Q. Had you been to Orcciani's house before May 4th?
A. No.
Q. That was the first time?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you know where to go?
A. He been telling me lots of times he live between Hyde Park and Readville, River Street.
Q. You don't mean that, do you?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, think a minute.  River Street is what I am asking you to think about.  Let me help you out.  Don't you mean Hyde Park Avenue?
A. Probably is, but I remember I asked the conductor when I got the car on an Elevated.  I said, "This car go by River Street?" He says, "Right in line." So I stopped when I saw the part where the Italians lived, so I stopped there.  When I stopped I walking about twenty or fifty steps I see Orcciani coming with the motorcycle.
Q. Then you had arranged to meet him when you got off the car, had you?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you make that arrangement?
A. May 2d.
Q. What time did you arrange to meet him?
A. In Boston, you mean?
Q. No, in Hyde Park?
A. He says he ever see Boda.
Q. No, you don't understand.  On Sunday, May 2d, what time did you and Orcciani agree you were to meet in Hyde Park?
A. Oh, we did not say that.
Q. Do you mean to say you went out to Hyde Park thinking he lived on River Street and that you were going to find him there?
A. Same way where the Italians lived.
Q. Don't you know it isn't River Street that runs between Hyde Park and Readville?  A. I could not remember well, very well.  He told me to get for Hyde Park a car and ask for River Street.  He says, "That bring you right to my house, Italian place."
Q. River Street would bring you to his house?
A. He said, "You found out where the Italian people,--they know me very well."
Q. Did he tell you he lived on River Street?
A. He says, "Take a car go by River Street."
Q. Are you certain of that ?
A. I am not sure, but I think.
Q. Do you remember my asking you at Brockton on May 6th:  "Q. Did you ever go to Ricardo's house in Hyde Park?"  You know who Ricardo is?
A. Yes.
Q. That is Orcciani?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember that question?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember your answer?
A. Yes.
Q. What was it?
A. "Yes."
Q. You told me you had been?
A. Yes.
Q. Didn't I say,--didn't you reply to that question:  Did you ever go to Ricardo's house in Hyde Park? A. No." Didn't you say that to me?
A. If I say, it was false.
Q. Did you say it?
A. Probably I did.
Q. And that was another falsehood, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew that we had Orcciani under arrest right there, didn't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Could falsifying about whether you had been to his house help him at all then?
A. Sure.
Q. How?
A. Because he had literature just as much as I had.
Q. He had what?
A. Literature.
Q. But we had him there, didn't we?
A. Yes.
Q. Motorcycle and all.  No, I beg your pardon.  We did not have the motorcycle, but we had, him, didn't we?  Didn't you talk with him before you talked with me down in the cell room?
A. No, sir.  I says some words, I says, that is all.
Q. Didn't you say some words with him before you came upstairs to talk with me? A. Yes.
Q. Didn't he tell you we had gotten him that day out of the foundry in Norwood?
A. I do not remember if he did tell me.
Q. Didn't you know that before you came up?
A. I hear he was, arrested at the foundry the day he was working.
Q. And you heard that from him, didn't you?
A. I guess so.
Q. And you heard it before you ever saw me, didn't you?
A. I guess so.
Q. And before you ever saw me upstairs, hadn't you been looked over by thirty or thirty-five people, as you said yesterday?
A. One day.
Q. That day before you saw me?
A. Yes.
Q. And you did not know what we had you there for?
A. No.
Q. Didn't have any idea?
A. No, sir.
Q. Didn't have any idea when I asked you if you knew Berardelli, and you said: "No.  Who is this Berardelli?" A. Well, fellows read one day the paper.  He could not remember.
Q. That did not bring anything back to your mind?
A. No.
Q. Three weeks afterwards?
A. No. What a fellow can remember that?
Q. Can't you remember back three weeks?
A. Well, there isn't anything that interested me to remember.
Q. Wasn't it of any interest to you that there was an atrocious murder committed in South Braintree?
A. One, two, three day and then stop.  The paper stop and people was,--and I did forget.
Q. And you forgot about it?
A. Certainly.
Q. Did I ask you if you ever worked in Braintree?
A. I think you did.
Q. Did you forget about that, Mr. Sacco?
A. No.
Q. Did you tell me the truth about it?
A.  No, sir.
Q. Did you falsify about it?
A. Yes.
Q. Why, Mr. Sacco?
A. Because I am not registered. I am a slacker.  Then, another thing, I don't want you to find that literature and then I won't be in trouble, that is all.
Q. Are you telling this jury you falsified about ever working in Braintree because you were a slacker?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Because you had literature in your house?
A. Yes.
Q. What did working in Braintree have to do with that?  Is that question plain?  It isn't very good English.  Let me change it.  Did working in Braintree have anything to do with your being a slacker?
A. Sure.
Q. The war was over, wasn't it, when you and I were talking.
A. I know, but they could arrest me just the same, I suppose.
Q. Then hadn't we arrested you.
A. Yes, but only to find out my  second name.
Q. Didn't you give me your second name?
A. No, I gave you Nicola Sacco.
Q. Nicola Sacco.  You did not give me the name of Mosmacotelli?
A. No.
Q. That is the name you were hiding from the draft under, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you told me your real name, didn't you?
A. Real, my name, yes.
Q. Then you gave me all the information I needed if I was after you for being a slacker, didn't you?
A. If I told you I was then working in Rice & Hutchins' factory, I would tell you the second name to find out, so that is why I keep it back.
Q. So you told me your real name, Nicola Sacco?
A. Yes.
Q. And you expected to escape punishment for being a slacker by telling me your real name.  Is that it, Mr. Sacco?
A. Yes; and some other thing, books, and literature.
Q. You took the name of Mosmacotelli to escape punishment for being a slacker, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, then, in telling me your real -name, Sacco, you weren't trying to evade punishment for that, were you?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you explain that?
A. Well, to find out the things and punish a year in prison for a slacker.
Q. Did I ask you whether you had seen any service?
A. No, but you could find out whether after.
Q. Did I ask you if you had been registered under the selective service draft?
A. No.
Q. Did I ask you anything about socialistic or anarchistic literature?
A. No, sir.
Q. And do you still say that by telling me falsely that you had never worked in Braintree you hoped to conceal those things?
A. And other things.
Q. Now, wait a minute.  Do you say you hoped to conceal about the literature and about the draft by telling me falsely that you had never worked in Braintree?
A. About, there is one thing in that not to be on the registration.  And another thing, I did not remember very well, because I work only seven or eight days So I could not remember very sure.  At that time I had been past four or five factories, working.  I could not remember, you know, right off if I work five or six days.  I work in other places carrying the board.  I work about three days.  My shoes all broke, and I left.  I could not remember.  I did not tell you that, neither.  Of Course, lots of fellows can remember all.
Q. Now, let us go back again.  Slacker punishment and literature were the two things that made you falsify?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you tell me where you actually lived?
A. Well, I was living--
Q. Where you were living that night?
A. Yes.
Q. And you had literature right in your own house then, didn't you?
A. Well, I don't think he could keep back his home, where he was living.
Q. Why couldn't you falsify about that the same as many other things?  What?
A. I think they could find that after a minute.
Q. All right.  Do you think telling me you lived in Stoughton near the 3-K factory helped cover tip the literature you had in your house?
A. Repeat it again.
Q. Do you think that telling me you lived in Stoughton near the 3-K factory helped cover up the fact you had,--helped conceal from me the fact you had literature in your house?
A. No, sir.
Q. It was opening the way to me, if that is what we were asking you for, to go there and get it, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. And you told the truth about that, didn't you, Mr. Sacco?
A. That I was living over there?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. Did Mr. Kelley, father of the Kelley boys,--there are three Mr. Kelleys,--I mean the father-
A. Yes.
Q. --come to see you at the Brockton Police station on the day of May 6th?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you then know what you were under arrest for.
A. No, sir.
Q. What time of day was that?
A. If I don't forget, it was sometime in the morning.
Q. And that was many hours before you saw me, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. And I did not ask any questions that indicated what you were being held for?  Did you say that yesterday?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that true, Mr.  Sacco?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you understand that question?
A. I understand.
Q. Did you have a talk with Mr. Kelley, senior, that is, the father, at the police tation?  A. Oh, a couple of words, I guess.
Q. A couple of words?
A. That is all.
Q. Did he ask you what you were being held for?
A. I guess, "I am surprised, Nick, you been here." That is all.
Q. Did you tell him you were being held on the charge or that you were charged with being a murderer?
A. No, sir.
Q. You are sure of that?
A. I am very sure.
Q. If Mr. Kelley walked out on the street and said anything about your being charged with that, he did not get it from you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did he come back to see you again?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ask him to find out, what you were held for?
A. No, sir.
Q. Had you already been over to the lower court before you saw Mr. Kelley earlier that morning?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, think a moment, Mr.  Sacco.  Do you mean that answer?
A. If I been in the lower court before I saw Kelley?
Q. Yes, the lower court before you saw Kelley?
A. I saw Kelley before the lower court.
Q. What time did you see him?
A. I do not remember if it was in the day, the 6th of May or 7th.  I can't remember.
Q. Well, assuming it was the 6th of May, what time of day?  You said in the morning.  What time in the morning is it you saw him?
A. I can't say.
Q. What time did you go to the lower court the first time you went there after your arrest?
A. I think about ten o'clock.
Q. Wasn't it May 6th?
A. Was it May 6th?  I forget.
Q. Don't you know what you were there charged with the first day?
A.   Yes.
Q. What?
A. For the revolver-.
Q. What did you say when you were asked as to whether you were guilty of carrying a revolver without a license?
A. I said I was guilty.
Q. What more did you say, if anything?
A. Nothing else.
Q. Didn't you say you did not know you had to have a license to carry a revolver?
A. If I have to have a license?
Q. Didn't you say you did not know you had to have a license to carry a revolver?
A. If I did say, that is false.
Q. If you did say it, it was false?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that is a falsehood you were telling the Court, if you said it, wasn't it?
A. I did not tell that to the Court.
Q. I am asking you when you--you pleaded guilty, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Didn't you then say to the Judge: "I did not know I had to have a license to carry a revolver"?
A. I don't remember that.
Q. Do you say you did not say it?
A. Probably I did.
Q. If you did say it, was it true?
A. Not true.
Q.  What was the reason you falsified to the lower court judge on the charge of carrying a revolver?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  He did not falsify on the charge of carrying a revolver under the record now.
MR. KATZMANN.  He did if he says he said what he said.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  He said he pleaded guilty to carrying that revolver.
MR. KATZMANN.  Of course he pleaded guilty.  The record shows it.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Your question is not fair.
MR. KATZMANN.  I do not want to put any question to this witness that is not fair.
THE COURT.  Then change it just a little bit.  That is all you will have to do.
Q. Did you say to the Judge after you pleaded guilty, you did not know you had to have a license to carry a revolver?
A. I would not say I did.
Q. Will you say you did not?  A. Probably I did.
Q. It is true, isn't it, you said that?  A. I don't know.  I am not sure.
Q. On that day you pleaded guilty to the charge, did you then know you had to have a license to carry a revolver, or a permit, rather?
A. Yes.
Q. Then, if you said it, that was untrue, wasn't it?
A. Yes, that was untrue.
Q. If you said it, why did you tell the lower court Judge an untruth about that?
A. I am not sure if I did or not.
Q. But you won't say you did not say it?
A. No, I won't say that.
Q. Then, without saying you said it, if you said it, why did you say it?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  If your Honor please, isn't that going--
THE COURT.  I don't quite see how he can answer if he did not do something that he says he is not sure he did it.
MR. KATZMANN.  All right.  I was trying to save time.
Q. Do you remember my asking you-- Did you say yesterday that you knew Mike Boda for about three years before you were arrested ?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is the fact, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember my asking you at Brockton if you knew Mike Boda?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember saying:  "A. No, sir, I never heard of him."
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember my asking you again:  "Q. You don't know Mr. Boda?
A. No. I never heard his name before.  I don't even think it is an Italian name.  I never heard that name."  Did you say that to me?
A. Yes.
Q. Were those answers true or false?
A. False.
Q. Did you know, from the questions I put to you, that we knew about Mike Boda and that we knew there was a man Mike Boda?
A. Yes.
Q. You assumed that, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. What was your reason?
A. The reason, I did not get in trouble about the other friends.
Q. But we already knew him, didn't we?
A. I know it.
Q. Then how could you conceal that friend from us if the questions themselves showed that we knew Mike Boda?
A. You know you can say you know, but,--to find out is pretty hard.
Q. You doubted we knew Boda, did you?
A. I think so.
Q. When we used his name and asked you if you knew of Mike Boda, you doubted if we knew about Mike Boda.  Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you mean that?
A. If I did say I knew Mike Boda, and I know he is a Radical, I am a Radical, that is the question I been trying to keep behind.
Q. But we knew him, didn't we?  What were you concealing from us in denying a knowledge of Mike Boda?
A. The District Attorney doesn't know whether he is a Radical or not.
Q. But I did not know that night,--did I know that night whether you were a Radical or not?
A. Yes.
Q. How did I know that?
A. You didn't know.
Q. No. And you did not know that night where Mike lived, did you?
A. The officer knows somebody, yes.
Q. You mean Stewart?
A. I guess so.
Q. Don't guess.  Do you mean Stewart?
A. Yes, Mr. Stewart.
Q. And you did not know where Mike lived that night, did you?
A. No.
Q. If your life depended upon it, you could not have told us where to go and get him, could you?
A. What do you mean by that?
Q. I mean, if your,--I. mean you could not by any possibility, could you, have told us where to go to Mike?
A. Mike Boda's?
Q. Yes.
A. Well, if it was necessary I would tell.
Q. Did you know where Mike lived?
A. No, sir.
Q. Then you could not have told us, could you?
A. No.
Q. You could not have helped us any, could you?
A. No, but I could indicate the town where he board.
Q. You could indicate the town where he boarded?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know the town where he boarded?
A. Not at the present time.
Q. Not that night, you mean by the present time, that night?
A. Yes.
Q. And you could not have indicated the town that night, could you?
A. No.
Q. You did not know at all by town, street, or city, where he lived, did you?
A. No.
Q. And you could not have helped us any, could you?
A. No.
Q. Why didn't you tell me the truth, then, about Mike Boda and your acquaintance with him?
A. That is the same argument as before.
Q. I want to hear it again, if it is the same one.  I want to be sure I got it.
A. Follow all the Radicals.
Q. How could we follow Radicals if you could not tell us where he was or where to go after him?
A. If you go after him you can find some house where he living in Radical house.
Q. Is that the only house around the town, West Bridgewater?
A. I don't mean West Bridgewater, but any place where live any.
Q. But you did not know where he lived?
A. No.
Q. Then you could not tell us where to follow him, could you?
A. No.
Q. That isn't the reason why you told us a falsehood about your acquaintance with Boda is it?
A. I did not get that.
Q. It isn't because you were afraid we would follow him that you denied acquaintanceship with him, is it?
A. Certainly.
Q. Well, will you tell me how you could help us follow a man if you did not know where he was or where to find him yourself?
A. [Witness hesitates.] Other things, I would not be responsible for telling other man who he is.
Q. Did I ask you to tell who he was?
A. If you ask me name, you want to say what he was doing, what kind of man he is.
Q. Did I ask you his name?
A. You did not ask me because I say, "No, I did not know him." If I say I know Boda you will ask me a lot of questions, "if he was a Radical, or anything, if he was very good friend of yours."
Q. Well, I had been talking to you up to the time I asked you about Mike Boda for more than an hour, hadn't I?
A. I think so.
Q. And you had not heard any such question up to that time, had you?
A. The question you put up now?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, I think.
Q. About knowing Mike Boda?
A. You asked me
Q. Or whether Mike was a Radical?
A. No, no.
Q. Is your memory very good, Mr. Sacco?  Good memory?
A. Yes.
Q. Working well?
A. Not all the time.
Q. How is it to-day?
A. Pretty good.
Q. How was it the night I talked to you?
A. I was real disturbed.
Q. Were you half as much disturbed when you were talking with me when you did -not know what you were there for, as you say, as you are now when you are charged with murder?
A. I would not say it is better than that time.
Q. I am asking you to say which time were you better, now or that night?
A. It looks to me now the charge is more bad.
Q. Does that mean you were in better shape then as to memory than you are now?
A. I did not know at that time they put in this murder.
Q. You did not know you were charged with any crime?
A. No.
Q. I am asking you if that did not make your memory better when you talked to me?  A. Yes.
Q. What?
A. Yes.
Q. What time yesterday did you say you and Vanzetti left your home on May 5th to go to Brockton and Bridgewater?
A. What time we left home?
Q. Yes, what time yesterday when you testified, did you say it was you left home?  A. Twenty minutes past seven.
Q. Do you remember what you--is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Do you remember what you told me that night at the Brockton police station?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember my asking you these questions:  "Q. Last night what time did you have supper?
A. Oh, between half past five and six, quarter of six."  Did you say that?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it true?
A. It was true.
Q. Do you remember my asking you:  "Q. Vanzetti was there with you?"
And your reply:  "A.  Yes."
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember my asking you then:  "Q. Did you go any place with him last night?  A. Yes."
A. Yes.
Q. Is that true?
A. That is true.
Q. Do you remember my then asking you:  "Q. Where did you go?  And your reply:
"A. About half past or quarter past six we started to walk towards the railroad, ten minutes past six, to walk towards the railroad to meet a car come from Stoughton."
Did you say that'?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that true?
A. No, that is not true.
Q. Why did you tell me a falsehood about what had happened within less than twenty-four hours when I was talking with you?
A. I did not remember exactly.  I did not get my mind to remember.
Q. How is it, your mind and memory, then working better, you say, than now, you are sure it is 7.20 and you weren't sure that night?
A. Of course I remember.  I got to remember very particular things, because the charge is awful on my shoulders, what I could.
Q. So you mean by that the exact reverse, don't you,-the condition of your memory, the worse the charge the better your memory?
A. I suppose so.  Men have to remember where he was.
Q. What did you mean by your answer a moment or two ago that the charge being worse now, you don't remember so well?  Which of those answers is right?
A. I can remember better now than that time.
Q. Have you been sick very much since you worked for the 3-K?
A. About three or four weeks.
Q. All at one time?
A. Yes, right along.
Q. Christmas, 1919?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you say yesterday you were sick three weeks before that Christmas, the Christmas before you were arrested?
A. I think so.
Q. Do you remember what you said to me at Brockton when I asked you about that same period of time or part of it?  Do you remember my asking you this question?  Withdraw that question.  Do you remember my asking you on May 6th, referring to Orcciani?
"Q. You knew where he lived in Readville, didn't you?
A. I knew he lived around that neighborhood, but I did not know the house."
Did you say that to me?
A. Yes.
Q. That was a falsehood, wasn't it?
A. That was true.
Q. That was true?  On May 6th that answer was true?
A. Yes.
Q. Hadn't you been there two days before on what you are now telling us?
A. It was false.  Excuse me.
Q. It was false.  It is pretty difficult for you to tell the difference between truth and falsehood, isn't it?
A. It is not difficult to tell.
Q. No difficulty at all?
A. No.
Q. What was the difficulty in your answering that question, then?
A. Any man can make a mistake.
Q. That was a mistake.  Did you mean you did not understand the English of it?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, don't do that again.  Please ask for an interpreter if you don't understand the English.  Well, let me try you on this one, then.  I have asked you, "Did you ever go to Ricardo's house in Hyde Park?" and you said, "No," didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was a falsehood, wasn't it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. We had Ricardo right there under arrest?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, wasn't it the fact that Orcciani stayed at supper with you and Vanzetti on the night of Tuesday, the 4th of May?
A. Orcciani?
Q. Orcciani?
A. Yes.
Q. And that he was over there again at supper time on the next night, next afternoon?  A. Yes.
Q. Both nights, the 4th and the 5th?
A. Yes.
Q. We examined Vanzetti before we examined you, didn't we?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did he have any chance after he came down from his examination to talk with you before you went up to talk with me?
A. Any chance?
Q. Any opportunity, any time to talk with you in the cell room after he came down from upstairs in the police station?
A. No, sir.
Q. To tell you what I had asked him?
A. No.
Q. Or what he had said?
A. No.
Q. We had Vanzetti under arrest there, too, didn't we?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew that?
A. Sure I knew it.  He was with me arrested.
Q. Yes.  And do you remember my asking you:  "Q. Well, when you got home"
referring to the 4th, Tuesday, the 4th, the passport day,--
“when you got home, did you invite Orcciani to come into the house?"
And your answer:  "A. Yes."  That was true, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember my asking you then:  "Q. Did he see and talk with Bartolomeo?"  And your reply:  he doesn't know Bartolomeo.  Did you tell me that?  A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was a falsehood, wasn't it?
A. It was false.
Q. What did you mean by telling that falsehood?
A. [Witness hesitates.] It is the same question, the Radicals.
Q. That is the same question?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, I want the answer.
A. I won't say he know Vanzetti or he know Orcciani.
Q. Why not?
A. Because he is the same as we are.
Q. And the pair of them were under arrest right there, weren't they?
A. Yes.
Q. We could not do any more than arrest them, could we?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, the only hope you had by telling these falsehoods, was it not, was to avoid arrest of your friends?
A. Certainly.
Q. Well, they were both arrested then, weren't they?
A. Yes, but--
Q. Then, how would concealment of that fact that Vanzetti knew Orcciani help avoid arrest?
A. [Witness hesitates.]
Q. Can't you answer that?
A. I gave the answer already, same question, about Radicals.
Q. The same answer?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you think that is consistent, Mr. Sacco?
A. Well, consistent for me.
Q. Seems consistent to you?
A. Yes.  Another thing, I am not responsible to say who he is if he is Radical.  '
Q. Did that question ask you who he was or if he was a Radical?
A. If I was saying I know, you ask me after.
Q. Did I ask you if you knew him?  Wasn't the question I asked of you if Vanzetti knew Orcciani?
A. Yes.  You asked me that.  I say, "No.  "
Q. Well, what of it?  What was the harm in that?
A. [Witness hesitates.]
Q. You knew, didn't you, Mr. Witness, that I was the local District Attorney?
A. I did not know.
Q. Didn't I tell You I was the District Attorney in that district?
A. Probably you did say, but I did not remember.
Q. You knew I was a state officer,didn't you, a Massachusetts officer"
A. Yes, something like that.
Q. And you knew that the Brockton police were local officers, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you knew that Mr. Stewart was a local police chief, didn't you?
A. No.
Q. Didn't he tell you?
A. No. I don't remember whether he did.
Q. I won't say that he did, I am asking.  I don't know.  I wasn't there.  Did he when he first talked with you?
A. No.
Q. You knew that they were Brockton police officers who arrested you?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew, didn't you, Mr. Sacco, that the Brockton police officer had nothing to do with Radicals?
A. Until they find out.
Q. And then you knew it was some other officers, didn't you, some Federal officers, that would have to deal with that?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew you were being dealt with that night by state or local authorities, and not United States authorities, didn't you?
A. I couldn't say.
Q.  Wasn't that your belief when the Brockton police officers arrested you?
A. They arrested, the local?
Q. Yes.
A. They arrested me, local officers.
Q. Yes.  And they took,--did You finish?
A. But I could not see if it was a state officer.
Q. You could not?
A. No, I could not see.
Q. Were you taken into the Brockton police court the next morning or morning after, whichever you say, whichever you went?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew that was a state court, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew it was a state charge there made against you, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Carrying a revolver?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew that had nothing to do with Radicalism, didn't you?
A. No.
Q. You didn't?
A. Radicals?
Q. Yes.  Carrying a revolver?
A. No, sir.
Q. You did not know that?
A. The Radicals has nothing to do with it.
Q. Radicals have nothing to do with it.  You knew that?
A. Yes.
Q. Of course.  Did you know a single one of the thirty witnesses whom you say looked you over before I talked with you?
MR. MOORE.  He did not say that.
THE COURT.  He said, "Did he know?"
Q. That is true, isn't it, those witnesses, you said thirty or thirty-five, looked you over or saw you before you saw me?
A. Yes.
Q. That is true, isn't it?
A. That is true.
Q. Did you know a single one of those persons?
A. No, sir.
Q. Had you ever given any Radical literature to any of them?
A. No,  Sir.
Q. Had you ever talked Radicalism to a single one of them?
A. No.
Q. Didn't you know, Mr. Sacco, that those people were not looking you over because of any books you had in your house?
A. [Witness hesitates.] No, sir.
Q. Did you think when Miss Splaine and Miss Devlin asked you to look this way [indicating] and then this way [indicating] and then back to, and then stoop over and hold a revolver, that they were looking you up on Radicalism, did you?
A. No, sir.
Q. You knew they weren't, didn't you?
A. No, sir.
Q. What did you think they were asking you-
A. I don't know.
Q.--to get in those positions for?
A. I don't know.
Q. You said this morning in your direct examination, didn't you--
A. Yes.
Q. --that they made you stoop down and point and,--as if pointing a revolver?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you think that had anything to do with collecting books?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or papers?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or Radicalism?
A. No, sir.
Q. You knew on the 16th or 17th, when you read the paper, a man named Berardelli had been shot, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you did not know what we were asking you questions about, did you?
A. No, sir.
Q. And you are a man who tells this jury that the United States of America is a disappointment to you?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Wait a minute.  I object.
MR. KATZMANN. On the question of intelligence, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  Not quite, and you assume, too.
MR. KATZMANN.  I assumed on the question of intelligence?
THE COURT.  You assumed "you are the man."
MR. KATZMANN.  "Are you the man?" That this man passed judgment on the United States of America?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I object.
THE COURT.  He may answer, yes or no.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Will your Honor save an exception to the question and the answer.
THE COURT.  Certainly.
Q. Are you, Mr. Sacco?
A. I don't-I can't understand this word.
Q. "Passed judgment"?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, told us about how disappointed you were, and what you did not find and what you expected to find.  Are you that man?
A. Yes.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  That is the same objection, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  Certainly.  It can be answered by yes or no.
THE WITNESS.  Yes.
Q. How long did you tell us, yesterday, you had known Vanzetti before your arrest?  A. Three or four years, I think.
Q. Do you want to sit down?
A. No, no, sir.  It is all right.
Q. What did you say about knowing of his name before then?
A. About a year, about four years, anyway, before the arrest.
Q. Yes.  Then I was asking you a different question.  Wasn't there something else you said yesterday about having heard of him before you knew him personally?
A. Yes.
Q. What was that?
A. One years before I saw him personality.
Q. "One year before I saw him personally"?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you see him that time?
A. I saw him that time we went to Mexico together.
Q. You knew him personally when you went in Mexico together?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you heard of him a year before that?  Was that what you meant?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. I am asking you now how you had heard of him a year before you went to Mexico?
A. On a paper.
Q. What paper?
A. Read, oh, read some paper.
Q. What paper?
A. Socialist paper, anarchistic paper.
Q. Do you remember the name of it?
A. His name?
Q. Do you remember the name of the paper?
A. No, I can't remember.
Q. Do you remember my asking you these questions at Brockton?  Let us go back a bit. This is the first question. Let us go back a bit: "Q.  Do you know Bartolomeo Vanzetti?” And you answered: "A.  Yes." Starting there, do you remember that?
A.Yes.
Q. Do you remember my asking you:  “Q. How long have you known him?  A. A year and a half or two years."  Did you make that answer?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it true?
A. It was not true.
Q. What was the sense in telling a falsehood?
A. Because I do not remember.
Q. about knowing him a year and a half, when actually you know him three or four?  What was the sense of that falsehood?
A. The sense was the same question we are Radicals.  We have been to Mexico together.  He is a slacker just as much as I am.
Q. You thought if you admitted knowing him only for the shorter period it would help, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you say today you met him first in Mexico?
A. No, no.  We meet here before we go to Mexico.
Q. You met here before you went to Mexico?
A. Yes.
Q. Where?
A. In Boston.
Q. Whereabouts in Boston?
A. I met him before, I suppose a week before we go.
Q. Before you went to Mexico?
A. Before we decided to go to Mexico.
Q. Where was it you met him in Boston that time a week before you went?
A. I don't remember exactly what the place was, but there was some place in a hall, I guess.
Q. Was it at conference, as you call it.
A. No. It was a regular meeting.
Q. Regular meeting?
A. Meeting; no conference.
Q. Do you remember my asking you:  “Q. How did you get acquainted with him?"
And your reply:  "A. Over in Boston."
A. Yes.
Q. This is at Brockton police station?
A. Yes.
Q. And my question:  "Q. Where did you meet him in Boston?
A. Did you say that to me?
A. Probably I did.
Q. Was that true?
A. Probably I did before ,probably week before.
Q. Was that true, that it was in a conference?
A. I won't say it is he.  Probably it is true.
Q. That probably is true?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you don't mean what you have just said, do you, that it was in a conference."
A. Well, a week after I met him, week before the conference.
Q. Well, we will let that go.  You said yesterday that, did you not, after you and Vanzetti came of the lunch room in Brockton, before you took the car to Bridgewater, that you took the copy of the notice of the meeting of May 9th?
A. Yes.
Q. For the purpose, as you said, of being responsible for the printing?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is, leaving it done.  That is what you meant?
A. Yes.
Q. How many copies were there?
A. Oh, we decided to do it.  Five hundred.
Q. No. Well, that is my fault.  How many copies of the notice did you have that night when you were arrested, about?
A. He make two copies.  One was too long.  I told him to make it a little short, abbreviate it, so we could pay less money for printing, and he did the second one.  So I don't think,-I don't remember if it was all together in one page, a regular letter page,--paper.  I don't remember if he destroyed the other half piece, or if it was together.  I can't remember.
Q. You knew, didn't you, that the police had taken that copy from you?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew we had it, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew it gave notice of a meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. That Vanzetti was to do some talking at a meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. And that he was to address those who had fought in the wars and ask them if they had earned the fruits of their labor.  You knew that, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were the fellow, the man who was going to have it printed?
A. Yes.
Q. And you knew that we had that notice in our possession when I was talking to you, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember my asking: "Q. Who wrote it?  And you said:  "A. Bartolomeo."
A. Yes.
Q. Then I asked you:  "Q. How did you happen to have that?"
And you said:  "A. I was reading and that was left with me."
Do you remember saying that?
A. Yes.
Q. And then do you remember my saying to you: "Q.  He left it with you?"
And your reply:  "A. After I got through reading I forgot to give it back to him,
And I put it in my pocket."  Did you save it?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that true?
A. No, sir.
Q. That was a falsehood, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. What were you going to gain by telling that particular falsehood?
A. That is the same question.
Q. Is it the same question?
A. Sure.
Q. Let us see if it is.
A. It is about Radical movement.
Q. Why, it was advertising a meeting, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. A Radical meeting.  The answer is yes?
A. Yes.
Q. You heard Vanzetti say, didn't you, that it was a meeting in the interests of political prisoners, but particularly in the interest of Salsedo and Elia?
A. Yes, collect all money.
Q. To collect money?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was to be a Radical meeting, wasn't it?
A. That is what they call a Radical meeting.
Q. That is what you call it, isn't it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then you knew that we had information right before us that you were going to have a meeting, didn't you?
A. I don't think you did.
Q. We had the notice, didn't we?
A. You have no hall.
Q. No, no hall on it, but we did not ask you where you were going to hold it, did we?  A. No.
Q. You were going to talk Radicalism down there, or, Vanzetti was, wasn't he?
A. I don't know what he was going to say, but only going to have a meeting, anyway.
Q. Don't you suspect he was going to say something about Radicalism?
A. Well, I don't know what he have in mind.
Q. You knew he had in mind to talk about Salsedo and Elia?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew that, didn't you?
A. Sure.
Q. You were going to talk in a public hall and weren't afraid of that, or, he was going to talk there, and you weren't afraid of that?
A. Well, we took a chance.
Q. You took a chance on that, and you lost out on the chance, didn't you, because we laid the notice.  You lost out on it, didn't you?
MR.  JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Is that important, if your Honor please?
THE COURT.  What is it?
MR.  KATZMANN.  I think it is vitally important.
THE COURT.  Yes.  I won’t say it is important.  That is for the jury to say.  You may answer.
MR.  JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  He was arrested before the meeting was to be held.
MR.  KATZMANN.  I think that is quite apparent.
THE COURT.  I think I ought to leave it for the jury for whatever the importance may be, if any.
Q. You going to have five hundred of those circulars printed?
A. That is what we have an idea to do.
Q. Of course, Mr. Sacco, you were going to put on those five hundred circulars-
A. Yes.
Q. -the time and the place of the meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. And they were to be distributed among five hundred of your followers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it was to be held in Clark Hall?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Clark Hall is a hall within 250 feet of the main street of Brockton, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Down at a little side street right off the centre?
A. Yes, near the moving pictures.
Q. Were you afraid to attend that meeting yourself?
A. Afraid?
Q. Yes.
A. Took a chance.
Q. Were you going to go to it?
A. I don't know if I could go.
Q. Did you intend to go?  A. If I had a chance, because I had to go to Italy in a hurry.
Q. Did you intend to go to that meeting yourself ?
A. If I have a chance I will go.
Q. Were you going to leave the chance?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know what day you were going to Italy?
A. I was going to New York on Saturday.
Q. On Saturday?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you going to pass those five hundred circulars out to your Radical friends?  A. Yes.
Q. And going to leave them attend an open meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. You weren’t afraid to have them come, were you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Is the real reason you told so many falsehoods to me you were afraid of your Radical friends being turned up?
A. Sure.
Q. Are those answers consistent?  Do you understand what "consistent" is?
A. Consistent to me.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Isn't that for the jury to decide?
THE COURT.  It seems to me he should go far,--I suppose you have in
mind, are the answers consistent with that meeting that was to be held?
MR. KATZMANN.  Yes.
THE COURT.  But you did not put that.  You simply asked, were they consistent?  You did not make it consistent between what.  I think the jurors better have a short recess now.
[Short recess.]
THE COURT. Will the defendant Sacco please return to the stand.
Q. I show you a cap.  Will you look it over, please, and tell me if you know whose cap that is?
MR.  MOORE.  May--
[Mr.  Moore confers with the Court.]
MR. KATZMANN.  Don't answer for a minute.
THE COURT.  You may answer the question.
Q. It is all right now.
A. It looks like my cap.
Q. Yes.  Did you have such a cap as that in your house at the time of your arrest?
A. Yes, sir, something like.
Q. You think it is.
MR. KATZMANN.  Did you speak, your Honor?
THE COURT, No.
MR. KATZMANN.  Oh, I thought you spoke.
THE WITNESS.  I said, "something like."
Q. Isn't it your call?
A. I think it is my cap, yes.
Q. Well, wait a minute, please.  Look at it carefully, will you?
A. [Witness examines cap.] Yes.
Q. There isn't any question but what that is your hat, is there?
THE COURT.  "Cap," you mean.
MR.  KATZMANN. Cap,
A. No, I think it is my cap.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. I don't hear you.
MR. KATZMANN.  "No, 1 think it is my cap."
Q. Will you try that cap on, please, and watch yourself when you put it on, just how you put it on?
A. [Witness does so.]
Q.  Will you turn around so the jury can see, all the way, please?
A. [Witness does so.]
Q. The other side, this side.  Is there anything you want to say?  Did I catch you as wanting to say something?  I thought perhaps you did.
A. I don't know.  That cap looks too dirty to me because I never wear dirty cap.  I think 1 always have fifty cents to buy a cap, and I don't work with a cap on my head when I work.  I always keep clean cap.  Right when I go to the factory, take all my clothes off and put overalls and jump.  It look, to me pretty dirty and too dark.  Mine I think was little more light, little more gray.
Q. Is that your hat?
THE COURT.  Confine it to cap.
MR. KATZMANN.  I beg your pardon.
Q. Is it your cap?  I should not say "hat." Cap?
A. I think it is.  It looks like, but it is probably dirt,--probably dirty after.
Q. When you had it on, was that buttoned or unbuttoned when you just put it on?
A. It was buttoned.
Q. Put it on again and keep it buttoned, will you, please?
A. Sure. [Doing so.]
Q. On pretty hard?
A. No, well, all right.
Q. All right.  Now, will you try-
A. Not very loose.
Q. Not very loose?
A. No.
Will you try Exhibit 29 on, and use the same amount of force in putting it on that you used in putting that hat on?
A. Yes. [Doing so.] Can't go in.
Q. Can't go in?
A. No.
Q. Try and pull it down in back and see if it can't go in?
A. Oh, but it is too tight.
Q. What is the difference in size between those two hats?
A. I don't know, but it looks that is tight to me.  '
Q. Is it any tighter than that hat?
A. Yes, lots.
Q. Lots tighter?
A. Yes.
Q. You are sure of that?
A. I am pretty sure.  I can feel it.
Q. You can feel it?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there any difference in the weight of material between the one that I now hold in my left hand   and the one you have on your head?
A. Lots of difference.
Q. Yes.  Now, assuming that they are the same head size, would one seem any tighter than the other because of the difference in the weight of material?
A. I don't say if it is material.
Q. Look at the hats themselves.  Any difference in head size between them?
A. It has more material over there inside than this.
MR. KATZMANN.  I will offer this hat.  I can't offer it now, but I ask it be marked for identification.
[Cap marked "Exhibit 27 for identification."]
MR. MOORE. [To the witness.] Do you want an interpreter?
THE WITNESS.  All right.  If you say so, all right.
MR. KATZMANN.  I think it would be well to follow his suggestion.
[The testimony of the witness, however, is not given through interpreter.]
Q. I call your attention to Exhibit 27 for identification, to that in the lining.  What is it?
A. I never saw that before.
Q. What is it?
A. I don't know.
Q. Don't know what that is?
A. It is a hole.
Q. It is a hole?
A. Yes.
Q. And you never saw that before?
A. No.
Q. Still you say that is your hat?
A. Sure.  Never saw that before.
Q. Never saw that before.  Was there any hole in your hat when you last saw it?
A. Hole, no.
Q. Sure of that?
A. Pretty sure.
Q. Where did you hang your hats up?  If this is your hat, did you ever wear it to work?
A. Yes.
Q. What do you hang it up on?
A. On a wall.
Q. On what on the wall?
A. On the stake, on two stakes.
Q. Two stakes?
A. Yes, sticks.
Q. Sticks of wood?
A. One go across and put my jacket, my pants.
Q. Is there a hook there?
A. What do you mean, a hook?
Q. A hat hook, or clothes hook?
A. Yes, I made myself, for the purpose.
Q. What is it made of ?
A. Sticks.
Q. That is wood?
A. Yes.  Then there is a nail through.
Q. Is it on the nail you hang your hat?
A. Yes.
Q. That is something you put up for yourself in the Kelley shop, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you say yesterday that the fact was you went to West Bridgewater on the 5th of May to get the automobile that you told us it was to see Pappi?
A. After they get the automobile, after, if they could get the automobile, after they go see Pappi.
Q. Did you tell the officers you real purpose of the going to West Bridgewater was to see Pappi?
A. Yes.
Q. That he was a friend of Vanzetti's?
THE COURT.  Did you say that to the officers?
THE WITNESS.  That is what he told me.
Q. Did you have any intention of seeing Pappi that night?
A. Me?
Q. Yes.
A. No, sir.
Q. That was utter falsehood wasn’t it?
A. Yes.
[The last three questions and answers are read.]
THE COURT.  Is that responsive to your question?
MR. KATZMANN.  Yes, but Mr. Kane and I were in disagreement as what was said.  I waited to make sure.
Q. What was your reason for going to get the Boda automobile on that particular night, to wit, May 5th?
A. The reason?
Q. Yes.
 A. The reason to get the literature out.
Q. To get the literature out?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you in any hurry to get the literature out?
A. I suppose I was in a hurry, just the same as everybody else.
Q. That doesn't answer.  Were you and the others in a hurry to get it out?
A. Yes.
Q. And you wanted a fast automobile to get it out?
A. Not fast automobile, but to get some automobile to go.
Q. Were you going to go around there next day and get it?
A. No.
Q. You did ride, did you not, in Orcciani’s motorcycle?
A. No, sir.  You mean the night of the 5th?
Q. No. I said, did you ever ride?  I meant to have said, did you ever ride in Orcciani's motorcycle?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. It has got a side-car, hasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. And a side-car large enough for a person to sit in?
A. Yes.
Q. Big as that [indicating], perhaps?  As long as that?
A. More longer than that.
Q. Longer than that?
A. Yes.
Q. As long as from here indicating to the rail?
A. Yes.
Q. How wide,-perhaps that wide [indicating]
A. Yes.  It is enough to sit in, any big man.
Q. Any big man?
A. Yes, I think so.
Q. Is it a fast motorcycle?
A. Well, I should say it would run about forty miles an hour.
Q. Have you ever seen Boda’s automobile?
A. No.
Q. You haven’t any opinion, then, how fast that could go, have you?
A. No.
Q. You said yesterday, didn't you that you took,-wanted to automobile to get this literature as quickly as you could?
A. Yes.
Q. And that you wanted to get it that night?
A. Yes, if, we could.  Not all of it.  Start at something.
Q. Start or something?
A. Start something to get the literature,-some house.
Q. Have you since learned where Mr. Boda lived on the afternoon of May 5th? That is, where he was then living?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you mean that?
A. Where he was living May 5th?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. I am not asking you if you knew that afternoon. it is a different question.
A. No, sir.
Q. Well, wait.
MR. MOORE.  I Suggest, if your Honor please, the desirability of an interpreter.
THE COURT.  I can't hear, Mr. Moore.
MR. KATZMANN.  I haven't the slightest objection.
MR. MOORE.  I think many times--
THE COURT.  You might step to the desk, if it is private.
MR. KATZMANN.  No, your Honor.
MR. MOORE.  I feel--
[Conference at bench between Court and counsel.]
[The testimony of the witness, however, is not given through the interpreter.]
Q. Do you know where the Coacci house is in West Bridgwater?
A. No, sir.
Q. Since you were arrested, have you learned of Boda's residence?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know how far the Coacci house is from Elm Square?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did Boda tell you when he came to your house in the afternoon of May 5th where he had come from?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did he come in Oricciani's motorcycle to your house?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have any key or any starting plug for the Boda automobile?
A. Key?
Q. Switch key?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you have anything that would start it'?
A. Start what?
Q. The Boda automobile?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did Vanzetti?
A. I don't- know.
Q. Did Vanzetti say anything to you about having something by which he could start it and nobody else could start it?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know -why Boda, if he was living in West Bridgewater, came from-
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  On what date?
MR. KATZMANN.  On May 5th.
Q. [Continued] –came from West Bridgewater to your house and then went back again to get his automobile?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know why he did that?
A. If he did tell me he was living in West Bridgewater?
Q. No. Why, if he was living there, do you know why he did that, came from way from West Bridgewater to your house and then went back again to get his automobile?
A. I don't know why.
Q. Didn't he tell you he had come from West Bridgewater that afternoon?
A. No, sir.
Q. How much did you weigh, Mr. Sacco, when you were arrested?
A. Well, I can't say that because I weigh 124,-144 pounds, but I slept
on a board, what they call a board, in Brockton police station, eight days over there, and was without food.
Q. Didn't get anything to eat in the Brockton police station for eight days?
A. It was enough to eat, but not for me.
Q. You mean it was not Italian food?
A. No.
Q. You had lost weight?
A. Lost about ten pounds.
Q. More than that, haven't you?
A. I don't think so.
Q. You were very full chested when you were arrested?
A. No. 150, 152, always, 148 sometimes.  When I working very hard, 148, 147.
Q. Well, you were muscularly hard, weren’t you?  The muscles were hard?
A. I never been in fight to be hard.
Q. Never been fight.  How much do you weigh now?
A. I weigh 152, or 153.
Q. You mean you have regained what you lost?
A. I have been gaining in prison the last time.
Q. Had you ever tried that cap on before you part it on in front of the jury yesterday?  Do you get that question?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you ever tried it on before you tried it on when the jury were here?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you understand that question?
A. Yes.  If I did try that before yesterday?
Q. No. That wasn't the question.  I was afraid you missed it.  We all know, you and I know you tried it on yesterday in front of the jury.
A. Yes.
Q. Had you ever tried it on yesterday, did you try it on before you tried it on in front of the jury? Perhaps I will put it this way.  It will be easier.
A. I understand what you mean.
Q. All right.  You are sure?
A. Yes.  I think I did try.  I was sitting over there with Vanzetti.
Q. And the jury was not in here then, were they?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know who hired Clark Hall?
A. I couldn't say.  Somebody.
A friend.  I couldn't say exactly the name who hired.
Q. Do you know when it was hired?
A. No.
Q. Has your lawyer had and you seen it in this courtroom—
A. Yes.
Q.--any letter?
A. Italian consul, you mean?
Q. Lawyer, counsel, lawyer?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Have your lawyers had, to your knowledge, in this court room any letter that you received from your father announcing your mother's death?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the date of that letter?
A. I don't remember the date, the day when it came.
Q. No. What was the date that it was written?
A. Printed?
Q. Yes.
A. It reached my house, you mean?
Q. No, no.  What was the day your father said he was writing it?  What date did he put on the letter?
A. Oh, I could not remember, Mr. Katzmann, but I think he wrote me after a couple of days my mother died.  My mother died oil the 7th of March.  I think he wrote me a couple of days after.  I got one from my brother Sabeno.  He wrote me, I guess, the same night the funeral of my mother.
Q. Then I suppose you got those letters about the same time, didn’t you?
A. Yes, I think I got my father's letter pretty near a week later.
Q. About a week later-?
A. Yes.
Q. When do you say your father's letter came?
A. I should say sometime the last March.
Q. Sometime in March?  You do not mean last March?  You mean a year ago last March?
A. Yes.
Q. What time in that March?
A. 23d or 24th.
Q. 23d or 24th.  Are you pretty sure of that?
A. No, I wouldn't say sure.
Q. How long at that time did it take a letter to come from Italy, from your father's home?
A. I can't give you no particulars because sometimes they make,-probably could come in twelve days, sometimes fifteen, sometimes twenty-three, a month, sometime a month, thirty-five days.  That is the way I have been receiving all the time, especially in war time.  Letters to me thirty days, thirty-one, sometimes fifteen days express.
Q. The postmark at Stoughton on the outside of that letter tells you when it was received, doesn't it?
A. I think it must show.
Q. Have you seen that postmark?
A. I did not notice.
Q. What?
A. I did not know myself.  It must be.
Q. Do you know what has become of that letter, where it is?
A. Where it is?
Q. Yes.
A. Over to my house.  Some of the lawyers got it.
Q. You have not taken it away, have you, from them?
A. No.
Q. When did you last see it, that letter, the first one from your father?
A. I never seen it since.
Q. Have you seen it in this court room?
A. No, Sir.
Q. Is it your recollection that that letter was received about the 23d or 24th of March, 1920?
A. I Should say so.
MR. KATZMANN. Let me see the deposition, will you, please?
Q. In what studio did you have the picture taken that was attached to the Andrower deposition?
A. Brockton.
Q. What Studio in Brockton?
A. I forgot the name of the studio, but it is about 1500 yards, I guess, to the first Brockton market when you go into the city of Brockton coming from Campello.
Q. Perhaps I can tell you.  Is it the Neville?
A. I do not know what the name is, but I could give you a description.  He is dark complexion, short.
Q. I never saw him.  I don't know what he looks like.
A. I suppose some Brockton officer know.
Q. One of the officers told me it was the Neville studio.
A. He used to have once his Studio near the moving picture, right side, when you into Brockton.  I do not know the name.
Q. Nothing there [indicating] to show, is there?
A. The name, his name?
Q. The name.  When did you have those pictures taken, near what time?
A. before my mother died.  I guess sometime in March.
Q. What did you have them taken for?
A. To send to my mother, because she was very sick.
Q. Where did you have the pictures taken that were on the Foglio di via?
A. Stoughton.
Q. When ?
A. After the 15th of April, when I cam back from Boston.
Q. Who took them?
A. The photographer.
Q. What is the photographer’s name?
A. I do not know his name.  He has got a studio right on top of the Brockton Market, on South Stroughton Place.
Q. Is there a Brockton Market in Stoughton Square?
A.. Yes.
Q. Right over that?
A. Right upstairs.
Q. You do not know the name of that?
A. No.
Q. I said, Mr. Sacco, there wasn’t any name.  Do you now see the name there [indicating]?  Can you read that?
A. Yes.
Q. See if I read it right.  “Neville”—N-e-v-I -l-e, photographer, 63 Main Street, Richmond Building, Brockton, Massachusetts.”
A. Yes.
Q. hen you came over from Italy in1908, did you then have a passport?
A. Yes.
Q. Was your picture on it?  A. I don't remember, because they worked,--my brother done that, all that work.
Q. When you say the Stoughton picture-
A. Yes.
Q. --and I was talking about the Foglio di via, that is the one you had in mind?
A. Yes.
Q. The one that is attached there?
A. Yes.
Q. How many times in all did you go to the consul's office in Boston about your passport in 1920?
A. Three times.
Q. Will you tell me when those three times were?
A. Yes.
Q. When were they?
A. I do not remember the first time, the day, but there was something the last of March or beginning of April.  I wouldn't say yes, because Mr. Kelley said the 5th of April.
Q. Never mind what Mr. Kelley says. , What would you say?
A. I do not member.  I think it was sometime in the last of March.
Q. Was it after you got your letter from your father?
A. I guess so.
Q. And after you had your pictures taken at the Neville studio, in Brockton, wasn't it?  A. No, sir.
Q. Do you remember what date you had your pictures taken in the Neville studio?
A. No, but I could remember the week, I suppose.
Q. Well, what week was it, then?
A. I suppose the week before last month.
Q. I don't understand.
A. Unless you say-26th, I guess, 26th of April; I am not sure, Mr. Katzmann.
Q. Are you talking about what I am talking about?  Perhaps I can help you.  Let me have that.
A. The picture for Stoughton, you mean?
Q. No. That is just what I did not mean.  That is what I thought you understood.
A. In Brockton?
Q. That one.
A. The Brockton picture?
Q. Yes.  When was that taken?
A. Before my mother died, a month.
Q. Yes.  Then?  How long before your mother died?
A. I guess I don't know whether it was sometime in the beginning of March.
Q. Your mother died on the 7th of March?
A. Or last October.
Q. What?
A. I did make that photograph last October, beginning of March, 1920.
Q. You don't mean that, do you?  October is not the month before March. February you mean, don't you?
A. February, yes.
Q. Then you had it taken late in February or early in March, before the 7th?
A. Yes.
Q. When was it delivered?  When were the pictures delivered to you?  When did you get them I mean?
A. When I got my picture in the house?
Q. Yes.  When did you get them in the house, I mean the Brockton picture, the big one?
A. Yes.  The beginning of March, I guess.
Q. What time, what date?
A. I can't remember.
Q. Was it before your mother died?
A. Yes.
Q. You are sure of that, aren't you?
A. I am pretty sure.
Q. Are you certain of it?
A. Well, of course, I don’t know my mother was died the 7th of March, because I -was in this country and my mother died in Italy.  I waited for the answer to my letter.  Probably my mother is died when I have that photograph all ready to send; was dead already, probably.
Q. Well assuming you heard of your mother’s death along the 23d or 24th of March.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you then have the pictures in your house from Brockton?
A. Yes.
Q. When you heard of it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You are sure of that?
A. Pretty sure.
Q. How many did you have?
A. Twelve.
Q. Twelve.  A dozen.
A. A dozen, yes.
Q. How long after you had the pictures taken did you get them at your house, the Brockton pictures'?
A. How long did I have?
Q. How long after you had the sitting, after you had your pictures, did you get the pictures?
A. How long I have in my house?
Q. Yes.
A. All the time.
Q. No. how many days went by after you went to Brockton and had the sitting for your pictures before you got them?
A. I can't get you.
THE COURT. [To the witness] You don't understand that question.
THE WITNESS.  No.
THE COURT.  Mr. Ross.
MR. KATZMANN.  I can make it simple, perhaps.  If you do not understand this time I won't ask it till Mr. Ross comes in.
Q. You and your wife and boy went to Brockton one day and he took a picture of you?
A. Yes.
Q. How many days after did you get the picture?
A. I don't know if I have a picture one week after or two weeks. I don't know.
Q. Did you get the whole dozen all together?
A. Yes. My wife took that.
Q. Now, you have told me about the first time you went to see about the passports was sometime along the last of March after you heard of your mother's death.  Is that right?
A. The first one?
Q. The first time.
A. No, sir.
Q. When is the first time?
A. Sometime in March.
Q. What time in March?
A. Well, you are right.  I guess I was hear already my mother was dead.
Q. And got the letter from your father?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was the end of March you went in?
A. Yes.
Q. How long were you in that time?
A. In Boston?
Q. In the consul’s office'?
A. I think half day I went in.  I lost half day.
Q. What day was it you went in?
A. I don't remember.
Q. What time that day was it?
A. It was sometime about quarter past ten or half past ten.
Q. How long were you there?
A. Oh, I done just as quick as I could to go back to the job.
Q. Did you go in to get information?
A. Yes.
Q. What information did you get?
A. If I could get my passport.
Q. What other information?
A. I was go to get information how much money I was going to pay to pass New York.
Q. What else?
A. That is all.
Q. I supposed you asked them how to get your passport, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. What did they say to you?
A. He says,”you need a photograph."
Q. What else?
A. That is all.
Q. Well, did they show you the Foglia di via?  Did they show you one of those with nothing on it that time?
A. That day?
Q. The first day?
A. No.
Q. What did you go in the second time for?  Strike that out.  When did you go in a second time?
A. The 15th of April.
Q. They had not said anything about a photograph the first time?
A. No. They just say I need a photograph.
Q. Then they did tell you you neeed a photograph the first time, didn't they?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes.  Then there was some other information that you got, wasn't there?
A. No, Sir.
Q. Do you understand that question?
A. Yes.
Q. The first time you went in did you ask them what you would need in order to get a passport?
A. Yes.
Q. What did they tell you?
A. Says I need a photograph for passport.
Q. Yes.  What else did they say?
A. Nothing.
Q. Didn't you ask them about how much it would take to get to New York?
Wasn't that one of the things you said?
A. No. I seen another building where they pay so much money, income tax.  That is before the consul.  That is near Park Street, below the garden or Park Street.
Q. That is down on Boylston Street, corner of Tremont and Boylston?
A. Yes.
Q. You mean your Federal Income Tax don’t you?
A. Yes.  I know they been robbed money in New York by passing those fellows going to Europe on account of taxes.  They were charging awful lot of money.
Q. Did you file an income tax in 1920 for the preceding year?
A. Yes, I paid.
Q. Did you file it on time?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that the day you filed it, the day you went in?
A. No.  Not say that question I went.
Q. Not to ask that question ?
A. Not the question how much I could pay.  I carry in my pocket to pass to Italy to pass through to go to Italy.
Q. All right.  I understand. Had you filed your income tax when you went in the first day to inquire of the consul about the passport? Had you filed it?
A. I did not find nothing there.  They were too busy.
Q. File?
A. File?
Q. Yes.  Hand it in to the Internal Revenue Collector at the corner of Boylston and Tremont?
A. No, sir.  They were just information I was going to get.
Q. Did you file your income tax that year on time or after time?  Did you get it in in the right time?
A. Yes, that is in the shop, when I was working in the shop.
Q. When did you file it?  That is what I want to know.
A. The date?
Q. Yes.
A. I don't remember.
Q. Was it before or after the first visit to the consul's office?
A. Yes.  It was sometime in the winter.
Q. Sometime in the winter.
A. When I pay the taxes in Brockton.  That is tax by my job, because I been making two thousand dollars.
Q. You did not pay the Federal tax in Brockton, did you?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you mean that?
A. I make, I passed $2,000 and $200.  I pay on $183 because I make one year twenty-two and $183.
Q. That was the state income tax, wasn't it, Massachusetts?
A. Yes, that was the state, was the one.
Q. I am not talking about that.  I mean the United States income tax.
A. Well, I did not pay, because I did not go to Italy yet.  When I go to Italy they charge you with so much money on the money you carry in your pocket.
Q. Well, here is the question: did you file any United States income tax in 1920?
A. I did pay, yes.
Q. Did You make out a tax return, any return?
A. I think I did.
Q. For the United States?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you make that out with relation to the day you went to the consul's office?
A. Oh, long time before.
Q. How long before?
A. I should say a couple of months.
Q. Now, the first visit in to the consul’s office, they said you would need a  photograph?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they tell you how large the photograph was?
A. No.
Q. Did they tell you where it was to go?
A. No.
Q. Hadn't you ever seen a passport when you came in 1908?
A. Yes.
Q. Didn't you know the size of the photograph that was attached to that?
A. I didn't see no photograph on my passport.
Q. What was the size of your passport when you came over?
A. It was just a book, a little book.
Q. Show me on that passport how big?
A. A Book, about half this paper, about half like that, I should say like that [indicating].
Q. This half ?
A. Yes.
Q. You did not think a photograph the size you had would go on a passport that size, did you?
A. No, I did not know, because I did not see a photograph, either, and on my passport-
Q. -But they told you the first time you had to have a picture for it, didn't they?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. That was the only size you knew for a passport, wasn't it?
A. I did not know it.
Q. Didn't they tell you, Sacco, the first time you went in that it would have to be a photograph that would go in the corner of that Foglio di Via?
A. No, they did not.
Q. Sure of that?
A. I am pretty sure.
Q. Are you dead sure of that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. They did not say a word to you about the size?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you tell them-
A. Because when he says, "You need a photograph," so I walk out.
Q. That is all he said?
A. Yes.
Q. In the consul's office?
A. They were busy that time, there were so many in.
Q. And it was at the consul's office they did not tell you the size of the photograph?  A. No.
Q. Did you tell them your wife and child were going?
A. Yes.
Q. And did they tell you you would have to have a picture of the three of them?
A. Yes, sir, a group.
Q. A group. Did not say a word to you about the size of it?
A.  No, sir.
Q. At the consul's office they let you come in and go away without giving you any information as to the size of the photograph?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you go in,--did you go for information the second time?
A. No, sir.  I brought in the photograph.
Q. That was a whole day that time, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. And you say that was the 15th of April?
A. Yes.
Q. What train do you say you took to go in that day?
A. I think it was about 8.46 or 8.56.
Q. What time did that train get to Boston?
A. I should say about twenty-five minutes to ten.
Q. Yes.  Had you told George Kelley you would try to get the noon train out that day?
A. To get--
Q. Had you told George Kelly you would try to get the noon train that day?
A. New train?
Q. Twelve o'clock noon?
A. No, sir.
Q. Didn't say anything to him about trying to get back on the noon train?
A. Oh, yes, I did tell him to go back if I could.
Q. If you could?
A. If I could, yes.
Q. What did you do when you got in at twenty-five minutes of ten?
A. I walked in the North End.
Q. Where did you go in the North End?
A. To buy a paper.
Q. Whereabouts did you buy the paper in the North End?
A. Prince Street.
Q. What time was it when you got there and bought the paper?
A. I think it was pretty near quarter past ten or ten o'clock.
Q. Pardon me, sir.
A. I think it was about quarter past ten, ten.  I don't know.  I did not have a watch.
Q. Did you walk right along from the South Station?
A. Yes, and near the post office.
Q. Wouldn't take you over a quarter of an hour to go over there, would it?
A. I don't know.  I never measured it.
Q. You walked right along, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. How long were you reading the paper?
A. I don't know.  I been reading all the paper.  That is all.
Q. Was it in a newstand you bought the paper?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the name of the place?
A. I do not know the name of it.  It is right on Prince Street.
Q. Did you stand there and read it?
A. Yes.
Q. How long?
A. I don't know, Mr. Katzmann, how much I stayed.
Q. You knew yesterday, didn't you?
A. I do not know if I did stay half of an hour, twenty minutes, fifteen minutes, I don't know.
Q. Didn't you say, "Fifteen minutes I was there"?
A. I wouldn't say yes.
Q. What did you do after that?
A. I took a walk.
Q. Whereabouts?
A. Hanover Street.
Q. Hanover Street?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do on Hanover Street?
A. I just took a walk there, and I meet a friend.
Q. Does Prince Street lead into Hanover?
A. Yes.  That [indicating] is Hanover.  That [indicating] is Prince Street.  That [indicating] is North Street.  So Prince Street finish North Square Street.  They
go in.  They pass through Hanover Street, go right through.
Q. How long does it take you to get from North Square to Hanover Street?
A. I would say only a minute.
Q. A minute.  If it took you fifteen minutes to walk from the South Station, it would be a little before ten when you got the paper, wouldn’t it?
A. That I don’t know.
Q. Wouldn't it take you about fifteen minutes to walk?
A. I think it take more.
Q. How much more?
A. About twenty-five rr twenty-five minutes.
Q. Will you say?
A. I can’t say exactly.
Q. Did you say yesterday you read the paper for fifteen minutes?
A. I couldn’t say, because I have no watch.
Q. What did you mean when you said you read it for fifteen minutes?
A. I couldn’t say, because I have no watch.
Q. What did you mean when you said you read it for fifteen minutes?
A. My recollection; I could not say if it was fifteen or twenty or ten minutes.
Q. If it took you a minute to get to Hanover Street, where did you go then?
A. Walked a little way.
Q. That was Mr. Montello'?
A. Yes, Montello.
Q. Montello?
A. Yes.
Q. You walked up Hanover Street with him?
A. Yes, after we have a conversation.
Q. Did you stop and talk with him at the corner if, --at the corner?
A. Yes.
Q. How long?
A. I should say a half hour.
Q. What time was it then?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. After I walked with him to Washington Street.
Q. How did you go to Washington Street?
A. Right straight
Q. Straight where?  Hanover Street doesn’t go through to Washington.  Which way were you traveling Hanover?
A. Through.
Q. East or West?
A. East.
Q. Then did you come out. Where did you go there on Washington Street?
A. We were walking right Hanover Street. We reached the corner of Washington Street.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. He says he was busy.  He says, “I’m sorry to leave you,” why, he has to come back.
Q. I wasn’t asking you what you said. I was asking what you did.
A. I did walk back.
Q. Walked back where?
A. Back to Hanover Street.
Q. What time was it then?
A. I couldn’t say, Mr. Katzmann.
Q. Where did you go when you came back to Hanover Street?
A. Just looking at a couple of stores, straw hat, the price, and something else.
Q.
Q. Did that take any length of time?
A. I think it took lots of time.
Q. To look at a straw hat, the price?
A. Sure.  Well, it took five minutes, a couple of minutes, to a store.  Can't tell how long it took.
Q. What time was it then?
A. I don’t know what time it was, but I was feeling hungry.  I had the desire to go eat.
Q. You went to Boni’s restaurant?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you ever been there before?
A. Yes, lots of times.
Q. How many times?
A. Oh, most every time I used to go to Boston.
Q. That doesn't tell us.  How often?
A. I don't know.
Q. How many times did you go to Boston that year up to the time of your arrest?
A. I can't say.
Q. Give us your best recollection.
A. I can't say.
Q. When was the time before that you had been in there?
A. In the winter I used to go
Q. That is not the question.  When was the time before this day you were last in Boin's restaurant?
A. Before?
Q. Yes.
A. If I don't make t mistake, it is the 25th of April, and the 2d of May.
Q. That is after.  I said "before."
A. Before April?
Q. Yes.  Before April 15th, the date you are now giving.  When before that?
A. I can't say.
Q. Don't remember that.  It wasn't anything unusual, was it, for you to go to that restaurant to eat?
A. No.
Q. Strange?
A. No.
Q. Why didn't you go tip to the consul's office in the morning and take the noon train out?
A. Well, I think to pass all day when I been in Boston.  I think better stay here.  I will stay, take all day if I have a chance to stay ti, because I got a pass to take all day off because they have enough work, the fellows after me working all day long, and if I was out just the same.
Q. Whatever the reason was that you did not get your passport in the morning, did you tell George Kelley the next morning that there was such a crowd in there you could not get your passport and the place closed and you missed the noon team for that reason?  Did you tell that to George Kelley?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. That was another falsehood, wasn’t it?
A. That was an excuse.
Q. It was a falsehood, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. It was a falsehood to the man that had trusted you, or his father trusted you, with watching his building.  That is eight, isn't it?
A. Yes, but the man in the factory did not loaf.
Q. The man who lived there next door to you.  That is right, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. George Kelley is a personal friend of yours, isn't he?
A. A friend of mine, yes, sir.
Q. He has been in your house times without number, hasn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. And you have been in his house times without number?
A. Yes.
Q. And you told him a falsehood the next morning, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. There wasn't any reason, was there, why you should not have gone in the morning and kept your word with George?
A. I don't know no reason.
Q. Is it true that there was a big crowd at the consul's office the day you were in?
A. No, sir.
Q. There was a very small crowd, wasn't there?
A. Yes.
Q. You were not in there in the early part of April, were you, at the consul's office?  A. Yes.
Q. When?
A. I don't remember.  I can't remember.
Q. That was your second visit, then, wasn't it?
A. You mean the second visit?
Q. No, I am asking you if you were in there in the early part of April and you said, "Yes." Do You mean it?
A. I do not know if it is in the beginning of April or last of March.  I can't remember.
Q. You mean the first visit?
A. Yes.
Q. You said it was before the first of April, haven't you, the last of March, you were in the first time?
A. That is the recollection George Kelley says.
Q. I am asking you what you say?
A. I do not remember.
Q. You don't remember?
A. I can't remember of it is the 8th of April or last of March.
Q. You don't remember that?
A. No, no.
Q. But you can remember the 15th?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember my asking you at Brockton:  "Q. Did you loaf any days from your work in April, any week day?"
Do you remember that question that I asked of you at the Brockton police station?  A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember replying:
"A. Yes, there was quite a few half days.  I had been out of the factory to get this passport."
Did you tell me that?
A. Quite a few?
Q. "Quite a few half days I have been out of the factory to get this passport." Did you tell me that?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it true?
A. Well, it was true.
Q. Do you call two days, one Half day, "quite a few half days"?
A. One half day?
Q. Yes.  That is what you are saying now.
A. No, a few.
Q. One half day isn't quite a few, is it?
A. No.
Q. Then what you told me, was it true or false?
A. It was false, if I did.
Q. Well, did you?
A. Probably I did.
Q. Didn't you?
A.. I think so, but I am not sure.
Q. Why did you tell me what was false about that?
A. I did not say I did.
Q. You are not saying you did?
A. No.
Q. All right.  See if you can remember this question, and remember you were talking to me on May 6th.
A. Yes.
Q. "Q. When did you first start to get your passport?  What day?
A. I began to think of going back to the old country a month ago;
when I received a letter from there about three weeks ago I began to inquire about the passport." Did you say that to me?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that true?
A. If I say three weeks?
Q. That you begin to inquire about it.  Was that true?
A. It was not true.
Q. Why did you tell me a falsehood about that?
A. Probably at that time I could not figure.
Q. Could not figure.  Were you hurried when you were talking to me?
A. No, I was not hurried.
Q. You had all the time you wanted, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you let me see your left-hand, Mr.  Sacco?
A. [Witness does so.]
Q. Will you just put it down there where the jury can see it, please?  Pull away your coat, your cuff, Will You?  That is enough.  Just show it to the jury.  Hold it down, please.  The Hand down more like this [indicating].  That is it.  Do you know a Mr.  Pisco of Milford?
A. Yes.
Q. You do know him?
THE COURT.  Would you like five minutes now, gentlemen?  If you would, you can have it.  It is a warm afternoon.
THE FOREMAN.  Please.
THE COURT.  All right.
[Short recess.]
THE COURT.  Will the defendant Sacco return to the stand, please.
Q. You said you knew Pisco?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember two or three years ago the fact that there was a bomb explosion at Franklin about some holiday, and I think either Thanksgiving or Christmas day?
Mr.  JEREMIAH MCANARNEY.  I object.
THE COURT.  He can answer yes or no.  I do not see the application, but he may answer it yes or no.
MR. KATZMANN.  Step up and I will disclose what I intend to ask.
[Conference at bench between Court and counsel.]
Q. You said yesterday, didn't you, Mr. Sacco to Your counsel, or to your counsel's questions, that when you talked with me there wasn't any talk about any particular crime that night, the night you talked with me there was no talk between us about any particular crime.  Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember,--I think you already said, I think I have asked you and I will ask you again because I do not remember your answer: "Q. Do you know Berardelli?  A. No. Who is this Berardelli?" Did I ask you that question?
A. Probably you did, but I don't remember.
Q. Will you say I did not?
A. No, I won't say that.
Q. Do you remember the question: "Q. Do you read the newspapers?  A. Boston Post every day." Did you say that?
A. Well, probably I did.  I will get it.  When I can't get one I get the other.
Q. Did you make that reply to me?
A. Probably I did.
Q. Do you remember my asking you then: "Q. Did you ever look for work in Braintree?"  And your reply: "A. Never."
Did I ask you that question, and did you make that answer?
A. I think you did.
Q. Was that true?
A. That was not true if I say, "No."
Q. I think I asked you this morning: "Q. Did you ever work in Braintree?"  And you said that-at Brockton, you said, you never did.  That is right, is it?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember these questions and these answers that I asked you and you gave at the Brockton police station May 6th:
"Q. You know a Buick car when you see it?  A. No, I do not think so.  I never saw it.  I do not understand any make of cars." Did you say that?
A. Yes.
Q. That was true, was it?
A. That is true.
Q. Do you remember my asking you:  "Q. Do you ever go riding in automobiles?"
And your answer:  "A. Yes.  Sometimes Mr. Kelley took me."
A. Yes.
Q. Did you say that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember my asking you:  "Q. Did you ever go riding in any other car?"
And your answer:  "A. No.  Do you remember my asking you at Brockton---- A. I understood that.
Q. "Q. Did you ever go riding in any other car?”That is, any car other than Mr. Kelley's?  And you said “A.  No."
Did you make that answer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that true?
A. That is true.
Q. That was true?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember my then asking you:  "Q. Did you ever go riding in Braintree?" And your answer:  “A. No."
A. Yes.
Q. Was that true?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember my then asking you this question:  "Q. Did you ever hear about anything happening Braintree in the last month?”  And your answer:  "A.  Yes."
A. I don't know if I did say that.
Q. Well, it was true, wasn’t it, that on May 6th you heard of what happened in Braintree in the preceding month of April?  That was true, wasn't it?
A. I could not remember.  It was true.
Q. It was true you Heard it about the time wasn't it?  You did hear of it the next day or day after, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember after I said:
"Q. Did you hear anything about what happened in Braintree?"  I then said, "What?" And you said: "I read there was bandits robbing money." Do you remember that answer?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. That is true, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. You had read that?
A. Yes, it is true.
Q. Do you remember my asking then: "Q. Where?"  And you said:  “A. In the Boston Post.”
A. Well, probably I did, but I wouldn't say it was Boston Post or Boston Globe.
Q. Do you remember my their asking you: "Q. Where did they rob the money?"
And your answer:  "A.  Over near Rice & Hutchins.  I don't read English very good, but, there was bandits in Braintree, and I think it was at Rice & Hutchins."
Did you say that?
A. I think I did.
Q. We were not talking about any crime when you and I talked together?  Do you still say that?
A. I remember you asked me if I did work in April 15th.
Q. Wait.  We will get to that in a minute.  But do you still say that you and I did not talk about this very crime in South Braintree when you talked to me on May 6th?
A. Well, I don't think you mean say with me the crime about--
Q. What did you think the thirty people or so were looking at you for?
A. I was thinking they were looking for some crime, now, anyway.
Q. Some crime?
A. Sure.
Q. And wasn't this the only crime I talked with you about, what had happened at Rice & Hutchins the month before?
A. No. You asked me if I was working in,--you asked me some other questions.  I don't remember now.  I don't remember.
Q. All right.  But you do remember I talked about this one, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And that you made that reply that it happened over near Rice & Hutchins, bandits robbing money?
A. That is what the paper says.
Q. Yes.  Do you remember my then asking:  "Q. Did you read it next day in the paper?"  And  you  said:  "A. Yes, with some of the friends in the shop." Did you  say that?
A. Yes, we have an argument on it.
Q. And do you remember the next question:  "Q. Were you working the day before you read it in the papers?"  And you said, and your answer:  "A.  I think I did.” Did you say that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you remember the next question: "Q. Well, do you know?"  And your answer:  "A. Sure."  Did you say that to me?
A. Say it again.  I cannot get that.
Q. I will have to go back a word in order that you will understand.  "Q. Were you working the day before you read it in the paper?
A. I think I did.
Q. Well, do you know?"  I asked you, and you replied: "A.  Sure." Do you remember that?
A. I don't think I said, "Sure."
Q. You don't think you said, "Sure"?
A. No.
Q. You don't think you said to me that you had read it the next day after it happened in the papers, and that you were sure you were working the day before you read it?  You don't think that happened on May 6th between you and me in Brockton, do you?
A. No, because I could not mind what I told you.  I was out some day because I was over to the consular to get my passport.
Q. What did you tell me when I asked you the question: “Q. Were you working the day before you read it in the paper?"
A. I could not remember.
Q. Did you say, "Sure," you were?
A. I could not say if I was sure.
Q. Will you say you did not say it?
A. Probably I did.
Q. And do you remember the next question after you had said “Sure." "Q. Worked all day?  A. Yes, sir." Did you make that answer to me?
A. Well, I did, I guess.
Q. And it was true, was it?
A. No, sir.
Q. It was false?
A. It was false if I did say it.
Q. And why did you tell me that falsehood, Mr. Sacco?
A. Well, of course, I never remember.
Q. Why didn't you say you did not, remember?
A. Well, could not figure it out that time.
Q. You could not figure it that time?
A. No.
Q. You figured you read it in the Boston Post the day after it happened, didn’t you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you read it with friends in the shop?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, that was the 16th of April, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. And then I ask you if you worked all day long the day before and you said “Yes” didn’t you?
A. If I said it was true.
Q. Was it true you worked all day long April 15th?
A. April 14th.
Q. April 15th, the day before the 16th, I ask?
A. If I say I worked, I was lie.
Q. Why did you tell me that lie?
A. Because I was not sure,.
Q. Why didn’t you say you were not sure?
A. I could not remember exactly.
Q. If you were in Boston on the 15th day of April, getting your passports, why didn't, you tell me that that night I talked with you at Brockton?
A. If I could remember I would tell you it right off.
Q. You could remember about reading it in the paper?
A. Yes.
Q. Reading it in the paper the day after it happened?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that your purpose in telling me a falsehood, Mr.  Sacco?
A. There was not interest to me very close to find out the date I have been out.
Q. It wasn’t interesting to you very close?
A. No, I did not see no interest.
Q. After thirty people, strangers, had looked at you?
A. No, because I did not think it was going on.
Q. After I had asked you if you ever worked in Braintree?  A. What of it?
Q. After I had asked if you ever tried to get work in Braintree?  What so you say to that, Mr. Sacco?
A. I don’t say no fault.
Q. After I asked you if you knew Berardelli or who Berardelli was, did you see anything about that?
A. Well, yes, I could see.
Q. After I asked, you could see then, couldn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. That was before I asked if you knew something had happened in Braintree the month before I was talking with you?
A. I did not remember when you mentioned the name Berardelli.
You did not remember it then?
A. No'
Q. When I asked you if you heard anything about a happening in Braintree the month before I was talking with you, you knew then what I was talking about, didn't you?  A. I can't get that.
Q. When I asked you if you had heard about anything happening in Braintree in the month before I was talking with you, you knew then what I meant, didn't you?
A. The month before?
Q. Yes, that would be April.  A. The month before April?
Q. No, the month before May.  We were talking on May 6th.
A. Yes.
Q. The month before was April.  You knew what I referred to then when I asked you that question, didn't you?
A. I did not get your question yet.
Q. You don't get it yet.  When I asked you the question:  “Q. Did you ever hear anything about anything happening in Briantree in the last month?” That means April?
A. Yes.
Q. You know what I meant then, didn't You?
A.  Well, yes.
Q. You knew I was talking about the South Braintree murder, didn't you?
A. Yes.
THE COURT.  We will stop here until tomorrow morning.
[Adjourned to Friday, July 8, 1921, it 9.30 a.m.]
 

Friday, July 8, 1921.

Q. [By Mr. Katzmann.]  At adjournment yesterday afternoon I had asked you down to this point, referring---
THE WITNESS. Oh, excuse me, I like to say, Judge, to get the interpreter.  I have been thinking yesterday I did make some mistake.  I understand wrong.  I think I would like to have the interpreter if I could.
THE COURT.  What?
THE WITNESS.  If I could have the interpreter.
THE COURT.  Why didn't you tell me so yesterday?
THE WITNESS.  I been thinking over last night I did answer something wrong.  Probably I did not understand something.
THE COURT.  The only thing I regret, I told you at the beginning if there was any question you did not understand, to let me know and I would see that you did understand.  I regret that you did not.  Let Mr. Ross come forward.  Do you wish to be heard, Mr. Katzmann?
MR.  KATZMANN.  No, your Honor.
[The following testimony is given through interpreter.]
Q. Yesterday afternoon at adjournment I had gotten to this point in examining you about what you told me at Brockton about April 15th.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the last three questions I was asking you about were as follows:  "Q. Were you working the day before you read it in the paper?  A. I think I did.”
Did. you tell me that?
A. I said, "Yes."
Q. And then do you recall my asking you: "Q. Well, do you know."  And your answer:  "A. Sure."
A. No.
THE COURT.  I think you should speak louder.  I know the defendant Vanzetti can't hear what you are saying.
THE WITNESS.  I told you that I went to the Italian consul several times and I wasn't sure if I was working or not.
MR. KATZMANN.  I ask that answer be stricken out, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  It may be.
Q. The question was, do you recall that question and that answer?
MR. KATZMANN.  May I have that answer stricken out?
THE COURT.  Yes.
Q. I am asking you if you remember this question and your making this answer at Brockton:  "Q. Well, do you know?  A. Sure." Did you say that?
A. Well, I don't remember if I said it, whether I said it or not, but if I said it it isn't the truth.
Q. And do you remember this question and this answer:  "Q. Worked all day?" That is the question.  The answer:  "A. Yes, sir."Did you say that to me at?
A. I don't remember if I said it.  If I said it, that wasn't true. I told a lie.
Q. And you now claim that that day you  were at the consul’s office, don't you?
A. On the 15th of April?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there any reason why you should have told me a falsehood about that?
A. No reason other than I did not remember.
Q. Is a failure to remember a lie, Mr. Sacco?
MR.  KATZMANN.  He has just used the word "lie."  He said, "I lied to you about that." I am asking him now, Is a failure to remember a lie?" Use his word.
A. I did not tell you a lie.  I did not tell it in bad faith.
Q. Well, do you remember my then asking you this question :
"Q. I suppose that the next day after that happened, the affair near Rice and Hutchins in Braintree, you read it in the paper, the Boston Post, the next day, didn’t you?”
[The witness talks to the interpreter.]
Q. The question is, did I ask you that question?
A. I think so.  I think, yes.
Q. And did you say, "Yes, sir, the next morning," to that question?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Could I make this request, that the interpreter, stand here?  Mr. Vanzetti can not hear the words of Sacco, neither can the men at my side.
THE COURT.  Certainly.  You can hear Mr. Ross, can't you, Mr. Vanzetti?
A. I don't think he call hear the defendant Sacco.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  We don't hear the defendant Sacco here.  He turns his head to Mr. Ross.
THE COURT. Yes, I thought that was the trouble.  Won't you speak louder ? Both of you speak louder?  Wait a minute.  Is it easier for you to stand there, Mr.  Ross, than over by the sheriff's desk?
THE INTERPRETER.  I think it easier for both the defendant and myself and, of course, if they want me to stand over there I can, but it is better to catch everything the witness says.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  You call catch it, but we don't catch it over here.
THE INTERPRETER.  I will stand---
THE COURT. You see that they all hear it. If you don’t hear it, Mr. Vanzetti, just speak.
Q. What is the answer?
A. I think I told you we had a discussion the next morning in amongst our working fellows in the shop.
MR. KATZMANN. I ask that answer be stricken out.  The question is, did you reply to my question as to whether you read it next day all the papers, "Yes, sir, the next morning”? you say that to me?
A. I remember---
MR. KATZMANN:  One moment, Mr. Interpreter.  I ask that the witness answer that question yes or no.
Q. Did you say to me, “Yes, sir, the next morning”?  I am entitled to a yes or no answer.
A. Yes, sir, I read it in the paper.
Q. Did you tell me that you read it in the paper the next morning?  That is the question?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did I then ask you this question:  "Q. The day before you read it in the paper, did you work all day?"  Did I ask you that question?
A. If I said, "Yes," I did not remember because I went to the Italian consul two or three times.
MR. KATZMANN. I ask that be stricken out from the record, if your Honor please.
THE COURT. It may be. Mr. Ross--
MR. ROSS. Yes.
THE COURT.  Tell the witness please, to answer simply the questions, nothing else.
[The interpreter talks to the witness]
Q. Did I ask you this question:  “Q.  The day before you read it in the paper, did you work all day?”
A. Yes, you asked me that.
Q. Did You make this rely to that question:  "A. I think so, but I don't remember for if I stayed out a half day, I don’t know.”
Did you tell me that?
A. Well, I think I did, but I don't remember, but I could not remember what day I was off.
Q. And did I then ask this question:  “Q. Did you stay out all the day before?”
A. I don't remember you asked me that question.
Q. Do you say that I did not?  Did you make that reply to me?
A. Well, you mean if I was out from work?
Q. "A.  I don't remember if this was on Wednesday or Thursday." Did you make that reply to me?  A. Well, you mean if I was out from work?
Q. No, I am not asking that. I am asking you what you said and what I said at the Brockton police station.  Did you say to me:  "A.      I don't remember, if--at the police station, did you say to me?--
THE COURT.  A little, louder, Mr. Katzmann.  Mr. Vanzetti can’t hear you.
MR. KATZMANN.  Oh, I beg your Honor’s pardon.
Q. Did you say to me at the Brockton police station:  "A.      I don't remember if this was on Wednesday or Thursday.”
Did you say that to me?
A. I believe that I did.
Q. And do you remember my then saying to you: "Q. It was Thursday."  Do you remember my saying that to you?
A. What do you mean about Thursday?
Q. I mean just what I said.  Did I then say to you: "Q. It was Thursday."
when you said: "I don't know whether it was Wednesday or Thursday?" Did I say that it was Thursday?
A. I don't remember that you asked me that question.
Q. Will you say I did not?
A. I will not say.
Q. And in that reply, you say:  "I think I worked Thursday." Did you say that to me?
A. I remember, yes.
Q. And that I said to you then:  "Q. Are You sure?" And you answered: "Yes." Did you make that reply to that question?
A. I could never have said that.
Q. Do you deny that you said that?
A. I don't deny it, but I say I did  not say that because I did not remember how many times that I was out.
Q. Did you say to me in response to the question after I told you it was Thursday, you said: “A. I think I worked Thursday."
Did I say to you:
"Q. Are you sure?"
And you answered: "Yes"?
A. I could not state yes for sure, because I was away two or three times to the Italian Consul’s.
MR.  KATZMANN.  I ask that be stricken out.
THE COURT.  It may be.
MR. KATZMANN.  And the witness answer the question.
THE COURT.  We are not getting along as rapidly as we did yesterday.  Tell him to simply answer the questions when they can be answered by yes or no.  Tell him to answer them in that way.  Wait one moment.  When the time comes that any explanation is called for, his counsel, Mr. Moore, will call for it later.
Q. In response to the question: "Are you sure?" did you say, "Yes"?
A. I wouldn’t want to say I said for sure.
Q. Will you say you did not say it?
A. No, I will not say that.
Q. And that I then said to you : "Sure?" And you said:  “A. I think so.”
Did you say that to me?  A. Perhaps I said it.  I don't remember.
Q. And if you told me, Mr.  Sacco, that you were working the day before you read the account of the Braintree murder in the paper, were you telling me the truth?
A. Well, if I read it in the paper, sure, I was certain.
Q. If you told me you worked the day before you read it in the paper, were you telling me the truth?
A. I told you a lie.
Q. Why did you lie to me about working on the 15th of April?
MR. JEREMIAH McAnarney. Pardon me.  The witness's answer does not predicat this question. He his only said: "If I did say that, then I have told a lie." Now, the next question is:  "Why did you lie to me?" This witness has not said yet that he lied to him.  The question carries an assumption that has not been made by the witness by any answer.
THE COURT.  Read that and see if there is not some evidence there that tends to prove that that is what he has said.
[A portion of the witness’s testimony is read.]
THE COURT.  I do not recall there that there was anything read.  The witness has used the words "15th of April." I think there is evidence from which the jury may find that the defendant said he worked on Thursday.  Confine you question to the language actually used.  I think that would be proper.
Q. Why did you tell me a falsehood that on Thursday, the day before you read the account in the paper, you worked all day?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Now, if your Honor will kindly save an exception to that question?
THE COURT.  Do you claim that the witness has not said that he worked on Thursday?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I do, if your Honor please.  I claim that the whole record as now read simply says--
THE COURT.  You think the jury on this evidence can't find that there is sonic evidence lending to prove that he said he worked on Thursday?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. I think on that evidence the jury would find the man was in doubt whether he had or not.  It don't seem to me you can predicate an affirmative falsehood on that.
THE COURT.  I will allow the question and save your rights.
MR.  JErEMIAH McANARNEY. Thank you.
THE COURT. Read that.
[The question is read]
THE COURT. Read that.
[The question is read as follows:]
" Q. Why did you tell me a falsehood that on Thursday, the day before you read the account in the paper, you worked all day?"]
THE WITNESS.  Well, I did not. remember for certain.  I said that I had been out two or three days.
Q. If you did not remember for certain, why didn't you say so?
A. It appears to me that I told you that several times.
Q. Do you now say, that you went to the consul's two or three
times?
[The witness talks to the interpreter.]

1955

MR.  KATZMANN.  Wait a minutes Mr. Ross.  I submit if your Honor please, that question can be answered yes or no.
THE COURT.  It Seems so.
MR. KATZMANN.  Please ask the witness,--I will put the question again, to be answered yes or no.
Do you now say that you went to the consul's office two or three times?
A. I was sure I was out twice.
MR.  KATZMANN. I ask that be stricken from the record, if your Honor, please.
THE COURT.  That may be done.  Tell him again to kindly answer the question by yes or no whenever he can.
THE WITNESS.  What question?
Q. That question.  Do you now say, "I went to the consul's office two or three times"?  A. Perhaps I said it.
Q. Is it true?
A. Two times, it is the truth, I am certain.
Q. And are you in doubt as to three times?
A. The third time I went after April.
Q. You mean May 4th?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you certain, Mr. Sacco, when you talked with me as to the date of your first visit to the consul's office?
A. I was certain that I went to the Italian consul several times.
[The answer is read.]
MR. KATZMANN. -I ask that be stricken out, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  It may be.
Q. Were you certain, Mr. Sacco, when you talked with me as to the date of your first visit to the consul's office'?
A. I was not certain of the date.
Q. Are you certain now?
A. Even now I am not.
Q. But yesterday you stated, did you not, that it was late in March?
THE COURT.  Did you say yesterday?
Q. Did you say yesterday that the first visit was late in March?  Did you say yesterday that the first visit was late in March?
A. I am not certain if I said it late in March.  I said, I am sure I said either the last part of March or the beginning of April.
Q. Did you say yesterday that the first visit was a half day out from the shop?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you say yesterday that the only visit to the consul's office that took all day was April 15th, all day out from the shop, I mean?
A. I could never have said that, because I remember that I had gone to the Italian consul once before that.
Q. But that was a half day visit, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Then the fact is,--isn't the fact that the only full day out from the shop was the day you now say was the visit you say you made on the 15th?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is a fact, isn't it?  That is true?
A. Yes, it is a fact.
Q. Do you remember my asking you these questions and your giving these answers at Brockton police station?
MR. KATZMANN. [To the interpreter.] Put that first, please.
[The interpreter talks to the witness.]
Q. "Q. Did you ever take a whole day off in April to look for your passports all day?"]
Did I ask you that?
A. I don't remember if you asked me that question.
Q. What has happened Mr. Sacco, to your memory since yesterday, if anything?
A. Nothing happened to me since yesterday and to-day.  I think that I might not remember it, but I could not, I did no have the interpreter.
Q. Were you urged by your Honor before you uttered a word on the stand to call for an interpreter if there was anything you did not understand?
A. I think that he did say that to me.
Q. Was Mr. Ross called to interpret on two occasions, to the stand?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you put your hand on his should and by that told him to go away twice after he had interpreted on each occasion one question?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And at two o'clock yesterday afternoon when this court opened, did Mr. Moore and myself go to you at the cage and urge you to take an interpreter?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you decline to take an interpreter then?
A. Yes, I said it.  I said it, Mr. Ross, the interpreter, could not explain things the way I tell him.
Q. Did I then say to you that Mr. Ross had been an interpreter in this court for thirty-five years?
A. I  don’t care if the interpreter in this court for forty years,  if he could not explain things the way I tell it.
Q. Did I say that to you ?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did I then say to you, "He has interpreted for all dialects in Italian in that time"?  A. If you told me, I did not understand it that way.
Q. Was it your feeling that you could understand my English better than you could understand Mr. Ross's Italian?
A. That is impossible.  I understand better than I understand the District Attorney.
Q. Why didn't you ask Mr. Ross  then  yesterday?
A. Well, there are things that I wanted to explain that it was impossible for the interpreter to explain it.
Q. All right.  Have you just said before we started this discussion about an interpreter that I did not ask you this question:  " Q.   Did you eve take a whole day off in April to look for your passport?
A.   I don't recall.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  If you Honor please, the interpreter at my side says that in the question Put the words "before this discussions were left out in the question put by Mr. Ross.
THE COURT.  How am I going to decide that?
MR.  JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I agree with the difficulties, if your Honor please, but we have a competent man here, a member of the bar, a man conversant with Italian and the English language, and he tells me now, I asked him the very question.
THE COURT.  I will excuse the jury and I will find out who is correct.
I don't know that I will know then.
[The jury retire from the court room.]
THE COURT.  YOU may put your question.  Put, Mr. Katzmann, the question to Mr. Ross.
[The question is read as follows:
"Q. Have you just said before we started this discussion about an interpreter that I did not ask you this question: 'Did you ever take a whole day off in April to look for your passport all day'?"]
THE COURT.  Now, you may put that question, Mr. Ross, to the witness.  I see there is another interpreter.  I may have to call upon him.  I don't know how I am going to decide this,--one from Brockton.  He has interpreted quite a good many times.  Come right around here, please.  I don't know which one.  I don't see but what I must call in outside help.  Now, put the question, Mr. Ross.  Put the question.  Go ahead, Mr. Ross.
[The interpreter talks to the witness and the witness talks back to
the interpreters
THE WITNESS.  I don't renumber if I said, “Yes."
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I am now informed by the interpreter that instead of saying "before the discussion," that Mr. Ross said to this witness, "when the discussion," and not "before."
MR. Ross.  I did not say any such thing.  I did not say any such thing.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Pardon, Mr. Ross.  I was addressing the Court.
MR.  Ross.  All right, but I think it is no more than fair that I said just before we had the discussion about the interpreter.
THE COURT.  I shall assume, Mr. Ross, that you interpret correctly until there is evidence to satisfy me you have not interpreted it correctly.
MR. KATZMANN.  I wish you would ask, if your Honor please, ask Mr. Minini if he said "before the discussion."
MR. MININI.  He said "before the discussion." He used the word it premo."
THE COURT.  Both times?
MR. MININI.  The first time.
MR. FORTE.  I think he used the word, as I understood him to say, “quanto." He used the word "quanto," which means "when," instead of premo."
THE COURT.  You may ask the jury to return. [To Mr. Minini] Will you kindly be where you were before.  I wish you would sit, perhaps, within the bar enclosure here.  I will have to rely upon somebody.  I do not know upon whom I can rely.  I don"t know much about the language.  Mr. Ross.  Your Honor, to satisfy your Honor, I asked the defendant if I interpreted it right and he said, "Yes, you have."
THE COURT.  I guess we will go ahead.
THE WITNESS.  If I recognize very good English, I could say.
 [The jury return to the court room.]
THE COURT.  You may now put the question, Mr. McKenney.
[The question is read as follows:]
"Q. Have you just said before we started this discussion about an interpreter that I did not ask you this question: ‘Did you ever take a whole day off in April to look for your passport all day?"]
THE COURT.  Put that question now, Mr. Ross.
[The interpreter talks to the witness.]
THE WITNESS.  I don't remember whether you asked me if I was out all day.
Q. Will you say that I did not?
A. I Wouldn't say, but I don't think.
Q. If I asked you that question, did you say:  "A. Yes, I did".
A. I could not say yes, because I wasn't certain.
Q. Did you say it?
A. If I said it, it was a lie, it was not the truth.
Q. Did I then ask you:  "Q. What day?"
A. I don't remember.
Q. Will you say I did not?
A. I wouldn’t want to say you did not.
Q. If I did, did you then reply:  "A. I think either Tuesday or Wednesday."
A. Perhaps I said it.
Q. Did you say it?
A. I think yes, I said it.
Q. Was it true?
[The witness talks to the interpreter,.]
MR. KATZMANN.  Pardon me, if your Honor please.  I ask him to answer yes or no, was it true.
THE WITNESS.  You mean between those two days that I was out all day.
Q. Either Tuesday or Wednesday?
THE COURT.  Put the question so that he may understand it.
Q. If you made this answer, was it true: "A. I think either Tuesday or Wednesday." If you made that answer, was it true, "I think either Tuesday or Wednesday" ?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Mr.  Ross, will you ask the defendant to speak loud so we can hear him?
MR. ROSS.  Yes.
THE WITNESS.  You said Tuesday or Wednesday?
Q. Yes. I ask if you said that to me?
A. I don't remember that  I said either of those days, but I remember that I said to you that that week I was out all day.
Q. What week?
A. Well, I mean the week between the 15th day of April and the 18th.
Q. Did I then ask you:  "Q. Is that true, Mr. Sacco?"
That is the date you and I were talking about, the date between the 15th and the -18th of April.  Is that was you said to me?
A. I don't remember if I said it that way to you.  I said that I was out twice, but as to you asked me if I was out a full day, I don't remember if you asked me that.
Q. Do you remember my asking you this question:  "Q. What Tuesday or Wednesday in April?"
A. I don't remember if you said that.
Q. Do you say I did not?
A. Perhaps you said it.
Q. What is your best recollection, did I?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Did you make this reply, if I asked you such question?  Put that to him and I will give you the question.
[The interpreter talks to the witness.]
Q. “A.  Well, I don't remember.  Either the 5th or the 8th or 10th.  I don't remember, I can't say for sure."  That is only part of the answer.  That is only part of the answer.  And was this the remainder of the answer.
THE COURT.  What was the answer to that part?
MR.  KATZMANN.  All right.  It was only part of the question.  It was so long I did not suppose Mr. Ross could carry it.  What is the answer so far?
THE WITNESS.  Perhaps I have said it, but I don't remember.
Q. And did you make in answer the following reply?  "A. This was in April I lost a city to fill out the income tax and I don't remember, but I can tell it from the factory the day I was out a full day."
A. No, I did not say that.  I never answered, I never gave you that answer.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Just a moment, please.
Now, I want to proceed the way your Honor suggests, but the party at my side suggests in the question  "April" Was left out of the question.
MR. ROSS.  That is part of the same question, the same question it was before.
MR.  JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  You did not put the "April" in the last, perhaps unintentionally.
MR.  ROSS.  I put it in first.
MR.  JEREMIAII McANARNEY.  Mr.  Katzmann puts the "April" in the last part of his question.  Perhaps you did not intend to, but do the best you can to follow the exact question.
THE COURT.  I think he is doing the best he can.
MR. JEREAMIAH McANARNEY.  Well, I want him to get all the words in the question.  Want the very best.
THE COURT.  Certainly.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Go on.
Q. Did I then say to you by way of question:  “Q.  There was only one day you were out a full day for your passport before this week?"
A. I don't remember that you asked me that.
Q. Will you say I did not?
A. I would not say no, but I don't remember.
Q. Has anything happened to your memory since yesterday?
A. I got it fresh just as it was yesterday.
Q. Did you make, when I asked you that question, did you make this reply:  "A. Only one single day that I lost a whole day’s work to inform myself in regard to the passport.”
A. I don't remember that you said that.
Q. I am asking you if you said that?
A. I don’t remember that I said that.
Q. Will you say you did not say it?
A. Perhaps I said it, but I don’t remember.
Q. then did I ask you this question:  “Q. When was that, last Tuesday or some day before that?”
A. I don’t remember that.
Q. Will you say I did not ask you that question?
A. Perhaps you said it.
 Q. If I did, did you make this reply:  “A. I think it was the beginning fo the month of April.  Ever since I received a letter from home and then started to investigate about the passport.”
A. I think yes.
Q. Did you make that reply, you think?
A. You mean that I said to you the letter that I received from my mother that she was dead, the first letter?  I would not be sure.
Q. I did not say anything about a letter, did I, Mr. Defendant?
A. I would not be sure.
Q. If I asked you this question:  “Q. When was that, last Tuesday or some day before that?” did you reply: “A. I think that I said that I received a letter from my father then I went to investigate about the passport.”
A. I think that I said that I received a letter from my father, then I went to investigate about the passport.
Q. Did you say that was—
A. That my mother was dead.
Q. Did you say that was in the beginning of April?
A. I don't remember if that was the beginning of the month of April.
Q. I am not asking you if you remember it was the beginning of the month of April. listen to the question.  Did you tell me it was the beginning of the month of April?  A. Yes.
Q. And that that was the only day that you were out a whole day.  Did you tell me that?
A. No, sir.
Q. You are sure of that, are you?
A. I am sure.  I am sure, because that time I was not away all day.
Q. Did you shave this morning?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you shaved every day since this trial opened?
A. Yes, sir.
MR.  KATZMANN.  That is all, sir.