TESTIMONY OF PROSECUTION WITNESS RUTH JOHNSON
[Johnson testified that she saw Sacco and Vanzetti on night of arrest]
June 16, 1921

Ruth Johnson, Sworn.

Q. (By Mr. Williams) What is your full name?
A. Ruth Corinne Johnson.
Q. Where do you live?
A. West Bridgewater.
Q. Whereabouts in West Bridgewater?
A. Elm Square, North Elm Street.
Q. That runs out originally of Elm Square, as I understand it, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes.
***
Q. Just keep up your voice, please.
THE COURT. Keep up your voice so every man in the jury can hear you, Mrs. Johnson.
Q. How long have you lived there on North Elm Street?
A. About two years.
Q. How far from Elm Square is it that your house is located?
A. Well, I don't know
Q. How many minutes' walk?
A. About three or four, if you walk fast, I imagine.
Q. In what direction from Elm Square is your residence?
A. Towards Brockton.
Q. North Elm Street runs from Elm Square to Brockton?
A. Yes,
Q. Do you know what the name of that street is when it gets over the Brockton line?
A. Copeland Street, I think.
Q. Is it North Elm Street on the Bridgewater side and Copeland on the other?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was your husband's business on April 15th, or rather, May 5 of last year?
A. He was working in the garage at Elm Square.
Q. Did he run it himself?
A. Well, with his brother.
Q. Do you remember that day, May 5?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember what day of the week it was?
A. Wednesday, I think.
Q. Where were you that night?
A. I was home.
Q. Is there any railroad track near your house?
A. Yes, on the side of the house, it runs along the side.
Q. Is that a street railway track or steam railway?
A. There are both.
Q. Both?
A. Both.
Q. Where is the steam railroad?
A. On the right-hand side of my house.
Q. As you face the street, do you mean?
A. Yes.
Q. On which side of the street is your house?
A. On the left-hand side going towards Brockton.
Q. Well, suppose this is the street going to Brockton: your house is on the left-hand side going to Brockton?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the railroad track is on the right-hand side of your house?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there any street railway track there?
A. Yes.
Q. Where is that?
A. It faces the front.
Q. Where does that street railway track run?
A. To Bridgewater and Brockton.
Q. Does that track go through Elm Square?
A. Yes, right through to Elm Square.
Q. Where were you on the night of May 5?
A. I was home.
Q. Home all evening?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where was your husband that night, do you know?
A. He was home.
Q. Do you remember what time your husband went to bed that night?
A. Around nine o'clock.
Q. What was his state of health that evening?
A. Well, he wasn't feeling very good.
Q. Now, did anything happen that night out of the ordinary at your home?
MR. MOORE. I object.
THE COURT. I shall exclude that question in that form. The question characterizes "something out of the ordinary".
MR. WILLIAMS. I will put it in a different form.
Q. Did anything happen that night?
A. Well, somebody knocked at the door.
Q. What time did somebody knock at the door?
A. It was about twenty minutes past.
Q. What?
A. Nine.
Q. Did you go to the door, by any chance?
A. I went to the inside door leading into the entry.
Q. Had you gone to bed at that time?
A. No.
Q. What were you doing when the knock came?
A. I was sitting reading.
Q. And your husband was there?
A. In bed.
Q. What room were you in?
A. The front room, a bedroom it was.
Q. Both of you were in there?
A. Both of us.
Q. You went to the inner door?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you mean by that, there is a vestibule in your house?
A. Yes.
Q. Then what happened? Tell us, please.
MR. MOORE. I object.
THE COURT. You may go ahead, I will save your rights.
***
A. I went to the door after I heard a knock, and asked who it was.
Q. What was said, I presume, is not competent at this stage, any way. Did you open the door?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see someone there?
A. Do you mean after I opened the door?
Q. Yes.
A. No, not when I first opened it.
Q. Did you at any time after you opened the door see somebody?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you see someone?
A. Standing up by the bridge.
Q. Tell us a little more as to the location of the front of your house and the objects around it, will you, please, so we may understand where the bridge is?
A. The bridge is just before you get to my house.
Q. Coming from which way?
A. From Elm Square.
Q. Tell us what you did. I suppose you came to the door of your house-How big a house do you have there?
A. It sets down low; it is not a very large house.
Q. Is it two, three, or one story house?
A. It is a one-story house.
Q. Where is the front door?
A. Right in the center.
Q. In the center of the front of the house?
A. Yes.
Q. Suppose you stepped out here (indicating) in the front door of your house to look around. Tell the jury what you see and where you would see it. Just tell us what the surroundings are.
A. There is a car track in front of it, and the bridge on one side. That is about all you can see.
Q. How big a street is it in front of your house, Elm Street?
A. It is not very wide.
Q. Do you know how wide it is? Can you give us any idea? Will you point out in the courtroom the distance from your front door across Elm Street?
A. From my front door?
Q. I will ask you first, how far is your front door to the nearest side of North Elm Street?
A. About three yards and a half, about.
Q. Then, how far would it be from your front door to the further side of Elm Street?
A. About six yards, I imagine.
Q. Where is the car track you spoke of that runs on Elm Street?
A. On the further side.
Q. On the further side of Elm Street from your house?
A. Yes.
Q. Where is the bridge, as you stand in your doorway?
A. To my right, towards Elm Square.
Q. What kind of a bridge is that? I mean, is it a wooden bridge or stone bridge?
A. A wooden bridge, yes.
Q. I just want to get you to describe the surroundings to the jury that is all. Is there any fence around the bridge at an?
A. Yes, there is on both sides.
Q. What kind of a fence?
A. Wooden.
Q. Board fence?
A. Board fence.
Q. Is there any pole anywhere around there?
A. Yes.
Q. Where is the pole?
A. There is one right at the corner of the bridge, on the same side as my house.
Q. As you look up, there is a wooden bridge with a pole on the end of it?
A. Yes.
Q. What color is your house?
A. Yellow and white.
Q. Now, as you came to the door there, did you see anybody?
A. Yes.
Q. You say you saw somebody where?
A. Standing by the pole beside the bridge.
Q. Do you know who that somebody was?
A. No.
Q. Now, did you see anybody else there?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, tell us what you did see, and what you did.  Just tell us along in your own way, Mrs. Johnson.  I simply wanted to get you to describe the place.  Now, go ahead and tell us what happened.
A. I saw a man standing by the pole, and he walked towards me. I wondered if there was anybody with him and I looked and saw two more coming over the bridge on the car track. So, as the man by the pole came up to me, I didn't say anything at first and he didn't. When he got right up to me, I said my husband would be right out.
Q. Yes.
MR. MOORE. I object to what she said.
THE COURT. How is that competent, Mr. Williams?
MR. WILLIAMS. I understand that is a narrative, and therefore not in the hearsay rule, but something that transpired at that time-it is a verbal act.
THE COURT. Suppose it was, do you propose to show it was within the hearing of either of the defendants?
MR. WILLIAMS. I do, if your Honor please.
THE COURT. Then, I will admit it, subject to your right to have it stricken from the record if the connection is not later made.
***
Q. What did he say?
A. He didn't say anything to me, but he kind of called out "His wife."
Q. Called out his what?
A. Called out "His wife." The man was at the pole, when he came up to me, called out "His wife."
Q. The words, "His wife"?
A. Yes.
Q. In what tone of voice did he call that out in?
A. Not awfully loud, and not awfully soft-just called out "His wife."
Q. And where were those other two men you saw coming from the bridge at that time?
A. Walking on the car track.
Q. In front of your house?
A. Yes.
Q. Which direction were they going, Mrs. Johnson?
A. Towards Brockton.
Q. Now, will you tell us what happened from that time on?
A. Well, I stepped out of the door, and I started towards Brockton. These two men seemed to come right along with me, only on the other side of the street. I was on the left-hand side, and they were on the right-hand side. Then I went over to the next house.
Q. Well, did you see anything before you got over to the next house?
A. Yes.
Q. Just tell us what you saw?
A. There was bright light shining onto the bridge.
Q. As you came out of the door of your house, did you see anything more than you have already told us?
A. I saw the bright light, that is all.
Q. Just tell us about that, where it came from and what it was?
A. I saw a light shining, and there isn't any light near my house at all.
***
Q. No street light?
A. No street light. I wondered where the light could come from, and I glanced towards Brockton and I saw a large light shining towards me, and I couldn't see what was behind it.
Q. From where?
A. Towards Brockton.
***
Q. What did it shine on, or what did it light up, as it shone there?
A. Well, it lighted up the whole street and kind of the side of my house.
Q. Light up this pole you spoke of?
A. Yes, that was right on the corner of the bridge, the pole.
Q. You say you walked towards Brockton. Go ahead.
A. As I went by the motorcycle, I glanced up.
Q. Now, wait a minute. You say "the motorcycle". You haven't said anything about a motorcycle yet.
A. Well, the light was on a motorcycle.
Q. I want you to tell us what there was, and what happened. Now just keep cool, and go ahead quietly, and we will get along all right. You say there was a motorcycle there?
A. Yes.
Q. What connection did the motorcycle have with the light, if any?
A. I saw the light first, and as I went by I glanced up to see what the light was on, and it was a motorcycle.
Q. Where was the motorcycle?
A. On the side of the road, on the same side as my house.
Q. Anything near the motorcycle?
A. There was a man standing beside it.
Q. What kind of a motorcycle was it?
A. I don't know what kind it was, but it had a side car.
Q. Do you know which side of the motorcycle the man was standing on?
A. On the left.
Q. Which side of the motorcycle did you approach or go by?
A. On the right-hand side as it was facing me.
***
Q. Now, did you notice anything about that man as you went by?
A. Well, all I could see what his coat and hat.
Q. Did you see what kind of a coat and hat he had on then?
A. Mackinaw coat.
Q. Mackinaw coat?
A. Yes, and kind of a soft hat.
Q. What do you mean by a "mackinaw coat"?
A. One of those plaid coats with a belt, short.
Q. Made of what?
A. Why, I don't know. Just like any other mackinaw coat.
Q. Cloth coat, or fur, or what?
A. Yes. Cloth.
Q. Could you tell what color of mackinaw coat it was at that time?
A. It looked like a plaid, dark plaid.
Q. Where were these other two men when you went by the man with the motorcycle?
A. Right opposite me.
Q. Now, go ahead from there and tell the jury what you did?
A. I passed the motorcycle and kept walking until I got to the next house. There is a big driveway there.
Q. Where were those other men that you spoke of?
A. They walked right along with me.
Q. How far away from you were they, Mrs. Johnson?
A. About three yards and a half.
***
Q. On which side of you were these men walking?
A. On the right.
Q. You came up to the next house, you say, where there was a driveway?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is the name of the family that lives in the next house?
A. Bartlett.
Q. What did you do when you got to the Bartlett house?
A. I knocked at the door.
Q. What did you do then?
MR. MOORE. I object, your Honor.
THE COURT. You may proceed.
***
A. I knocked at the door, and somebody opened the door.
Q. You need not say what talk you had then, unless you were where the defendants- Well, I won't put it that way. Where were these two men when you went into the Bartlett house?
A. They were right opposite me on the car track.
Q. How far away were they when you went into the Bartlett house itself, when you went into the house?
A. I couldn't tell that.
Q. Were they in hearing distance at that time?
A. No, no.
MR. McANARNEY. What is the answer?
THE STENOGRAPHER. "No, no".
Q. You did go into the Bartlett house?
A. I did.
Q. When you went into the Bartlett house, did you do anything in reference to the Bridgewater police?
MR. MOORE. I object.
MR. WILLIAMS. I will put it in this form.
Q. What did you do after you went into the Bartlett house?
A. I telephoned.
MR. MOORE. I object.
THE COURT. You may inquire, "What did you do?"
A. I telephoned.
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Q. To whom?
A. West Bridgewater police.
***
Q. Did you later come out of the Bartlett house?
A. Yes.
Q. How long were you in the Bartlett house before you came out?
A. I imagine about ten minutes.
Q. What did you do then, Mrs. Johnson?
THE COURT. It is distinctly understood that this talk over the telephone is admitted simply as a fact. Of course, the conversation that took place is not competent.
MR. WILLIAMS. I have not asked it, if your Honor please.
THE COURT. I want that distinctly understood.
Q. Now, after you came out, Mrs. Johnson, what did you do?
A. I walked down the driveway, and as I got to the end of the driveway two men walked alongside of me.
Q. What two men?
A. The same that followed me up.
Q. Where were they when you got down to the end of the driveway?
A. They seemed to walk right along with me.
***
Q. I forgot to ask, is the Bartlett house on the same side of the street as your house?
A. The same side.
Q. And as you walked along on the same side going back, what did you notice about the two men?
A. I could see them plain. They were on the car track.
Q. What were they doing?
A. Just walking along as I did.
Q. Did you notice anything about the motorcycle as you went back towards your house?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us what you did notice about that?
A. It had turned towards Brockton on the car track side, and the light was shining right in my face, and the two men that were walking with me.
***
Q. Which side had it been on, did you say, when you went up to the Bartlett house?
A. On the right, going towards Elm Square.
Q. Now, which side was it on when you went back towards your house?
A. On the right going towards Brockton.
Q. On the opposite side?
A. Yes.
Q. You say the light was shining in your face and on the other two men?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, what happened as you went along there going back to the house?
A. As I got up to the motorcycle I heard it was running. Then I saw the two men stop.
Q. Stop where?
A. At the motorcycle.
Q. Could you see them at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, where were they then?
A. Side of the motorcycle.
Q. Was there a man with them by the motorcycle?
A. Yes.
Q. How many men there?
A. There were three all together.
***
Q. Now could you see the faces or appearance of any of those men here by the motorcycle there at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, will you describe to the jury the appearance of any of the men there at the motorcycle that you then saw? Take them one by one, if there was more than one that you could see?
A. Well, he was short
Q. Which one?
A. The one that I saw most of all.
Q. Yes.
A. He was short, and his face was kind of blue, as though he had just shaved. He had an overcoat and a derby. That is all I can say.
Q. Can you tell anything about his age or his weight?
A. No.
Q. Did you know what his name was at that time?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever see that man you have just described after that?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you see him after that?
A. At the Brockton police station.
Q. When?
A. The next night.
Q. The next night?
A. Yes.
Q. What time the next night, do you remember?
A. I think I got up to the police station about half past seven.
Q. Anybody with you?
A. My husband.
Q. Whereabouts did you see that man the next night? Whereabouts in the police station, I mean? A. Well, the first time I saw him was when he came up the stairs, when they were bringing him up. I recognized him right away.
Q. Now, do you see that man you saw on North Elm Street with the motorcycle, and you later saw in the Brockton police station, here in court today?
A. Yes.
Q. And where do you see him? Right there.
Q. Just point, please.
A. Right there, on this side.
Q. Speak up a little bit. You say "on this side", and where?
A. In the cate there.
Q. The man with the moustache, or the man without a moustache?
A. Without.
Q. Do you know what his name is now?
A. Sacco.
Q. Are you sure he is the man you saw that night?
A. Positive.
Q. Now, can you describe any other man who was there?
A. Only that he was a little taller.
Q. Which man are you speaking of now?
A. The man that was with him, they were walking along the car track.
Q. You have described Sacco. Now, describe the other one, if you can.
A. I didn't see him. He was on the other side.
Q. Tell us anything you did see about him.
A. He had a long over coat and soft hat, that is all I could see.
Q. What can you tell us about his height?
A. He was taller than the other man.
Q. Now, could you see the man with the motorcycle?
A. No.
Q. Did you see him at any time that night, the man on the motorcycle?
A. Well, just his coat and hat, that is all.
Q. Tell us what kind of a coat and hat he had on when you saw him that second time. I mean, as you came down towards your house and the three were together there.
A. He had a mackinaw coat, and soft hat pulled down over his face.
Q. Now, did you see that man afterwards?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you see him?
A. At the Brockton police-
MR. MOORE. I assume now you are referring to persons other than the defendants?
THE COURT. I don't know. What is the fact?
MR. WILLIAMS. This is a man who is not one of the defendants, if your Honor please.
THE COURT. Well, wherein is that competent?
MR. WILLIAMS. I wish to show at the present time who was in the company of the defendants at that time, if your Honor please.
***
THE COURT. I will allow you to show that, if it is simply to show all the men in that party, that is, the four men.
MR. WILLIAMS. Yes.
THE COURT. I will allow that.
***
Q. Where did you see that man later?
A. In the Brockton police court.
Q. In the Brockton police court?
A. I mean, station.
Q. When in the Brockton police station?
A. This next night.
Q. That is the time you went up with your husband?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you learn what that man's name was at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. What was his name?
A. Sino or Scino.
Q. Do you know how it is spelled?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever see it spelled?
A. Yes, in the paper.
Q. Can you spell it?
A. I don't know.
Q. See if this sounds familiar, A-r-c-i-a-n-i, or am I wrong?
A. I think that was the way it was spelled in the paper.
Q. You saw him at the Brockton police station that night?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he have on at that time?
A. Mackinaw coat and a soft hat.
Q. Now, after you say the two men stopped there at the motorcycle, what else did you do and what else did you see happen?
A. Well, I walked right along up to my front door, and my husband was talking to the man.
Q. Who was he talking to?
A. The man that was standing by the pole.
Q. Do you know who he was?
A. Yes.
Q. What?
A. Yes.
Q. Who?
A. Boda.
***
Q. Do you know his first name?
A. I think they called him Mike, I am not positive.
Q. Mike Boda. Now, what else did you see when you came back to your front door?
A. That is all I saw.
Q. Did you see anything more about the motorcycle?
A. Only that the man left my husband, and walked toward it.
Q. What man?
A. Boda.
***
Q. Yes, I mean, as you saw Boda go towards the motorcycle, what was going on around the motorcycle, and who was there, if anybody?
A. The three men I saw first, one with the motorcycle and the two that followed me up the street.
Q. Where were they standing with reference to the motorcycle at the time you saw Boda going towards it?
A. They were standing right by the side of the car. The sidecar was on the right-hand side, and they were standing beside it, and the fellow driving it was sitting there as if just ready to start it, sitting on the seat.
***
Q. Did you hear any talk, whether you could understand what was said or not?
A. No.
Q. How near were the two men standing to the man with the motorcycle when you saw them at the time you saw Boda go up towards them?
A. Right aside of the motor car, and he was sitting on the seat.
Q. Where was the light at that time?
A. Facing towards Brockton.
Q. How far was Boda from that group on the motorcycle when you saw him going towards it?
***
Q. Will you answer that, Mrs. Johnson?
A. I don't know as I can tell just how far.
Q. Well, where were you standing at that time?
A. Why, just back of my husband in the doorway.
***.
Q. Now, Mrs. Johnson, suppose we are standing on your front door step, or thereabouts. Can you indicate here in the court room some object which would show and illustrate to the jury how far away the motorcycle with the three men about it were at that time?
A. About over to that space there between the two windows there.
***
Q. On which side of the street from you were they on at that time?
A. On the right-hand side going towards Brockton.
Q. That is, the car track side, as I understand it?
A. Yes.
THE COURT. Can you agree on that distance, so as to complete the record?
MR. WILLIAMS. We have an official distance down here of thirty feet. That is a little on the bias. Have the defendants any doubts?
MR. MOORE. Don't ask the defendants if they have any doubts.
MR. WILLIAMS. It is about thirty feet, I should say.
Q. Were they in the street, were they in the car track, or were they in the grass?
A. In the street.
Q. And where in the street with reference to the car track?
A. Right alongside of the car track.
Q. Now, did you see anything happen after that?
A. No.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I went into the house.
Q. How far was Boda from these three men in the motorcycle when you last saw him, that is, the distance between the three men in the motorcycle and Boda, towards which he was walking, as I understand it?
A. About halfway, when I saw him last.
Q. About halfway. Would it be fair for us to say he was about fifteen feet from the men, is that right?
THE COURT. This was at what time?
Q. What time was this?
***
THE COURT. About what time when you saw what you have described as having taken place?
Q. What did you do just after that?
A. I went into the house, that is all I did.
Q. And this was just before you went into the house?
A. Yes.
***
Q. Can you tell us how far it is from your front door step or front door to the entrance of the Bartlett house, and by the "entrance" I mean the driveway, entering into the driveway of the Bartlett house?
A. Oh, the driveway, why, about sixty feet.
Q. Sixty feet?
A. They were halfway between the driveway and my door. The motorcycle was headed towards Brockton.
Q. I see. Have you measured it?
A. No.
Q. And how far--
THE COURT. I don't quite get that. Are you speaking-halfway, she said, from where they were, the men, were from your door?
MR. WILLIAMS. She said sixty feet to the entrance of the Bartlett house, and they were halfway from her door to the Bartlett house. Is that right, Mrs. Johnson?
A. Yes, sir.
THE COURT. Pardon me, I was in error.
Q. Now, I want you to go back inside of the house a minute, to the time before you had gone out on the street. You say you had heard a knock on the door?
A. Yes.
Q. When you heard the knock, did you have-when you heard the knock, you say you went to the door, or the inner door, and asked who was there, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you find out who was there?
A. No.
Q. Did you then have any talk with your husband? Just yes or no, please.
***
A. Yes.
Q. Before you went out into the street?
A. Yes.
Q. And without giving us the conversation, can you tell us the subject of the talk you then had with your husband?
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MR. MOORE. I object.
***
Q. Well, was the conversation about going to the Bartlett house?
***
A. Yes.
***
Q. Now, where was the man who you say was Mike Boda when you first recognized him on the street?
MR. MOORE. I object to the form of that question.
***
Q. Did you mention the name of Mike Boda here a little while ago?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you say about him?
MR. MOORE. I object, your Honor.
THE COURT. You may answer.
***
Q. What did you say about Mike Boda a few minutes ago when I was asking you about that man on the street?
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A. He was the one standing by the pole.
***
Q. And how far was that pole from the bridge?
***
A. Why, it was at the corner of the bridge.
Q. It was at the corner of the bridge. How far from Mike Boda were these two men that you saw at the bridge when you saw him standing there at the pole?
A. They, were on the car track on the opposite side of him.
Q. How far from him?
A. About three yards and a half.
***
Q. While you were in the Bartlett House, did you look out of the window at any time?
***
A. I looked out of the window to see if I could see the men that walked up with me, and I couldn't, but I saw the light on the motorcycle facing towards Brockton, flashing back and forth, like that.
 Q. When you say "back and forth"-
A. On one side, and then on the other.
Q. Where was the motorcycle at that time?
A. Facing towards Brockton, on the car track side.
Q. Did you see the motorcycle move after that until after you had got down by it?
A. No.
Q. Now, did you notice anything about the man who was on the other side of Sacco, whom you say you couldn't fully describe?
A. No, just his hat and coat, that is all.
Q. Did you notice anything about his face?
A. No.
***
Q. Another thing, Mrs. Johnson, is there anything about the appearance of that other man that you can recollect that you haven't told us about here? Do you remember what you have told us here about that other man?
A. No, I don't seem to, only just his hat and coat.
Q. Anything about his face?
A. I couldn't see very good. He was on the other side.
Q. I appreciate that. I am simply asking you if there was anything further you can tell us about his appearance that you haven't told us here?
A. I think he had a mustache, that is all I could see. I couldn't see his features, or anything, only he looked as though he had a mustache, that is all.
Q. When you came back to the house, did you see your husband?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was he when you came back to the house?
A. Standing at the door.
Q. Was anybody with him?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was with him?
A. Boda.
Q. And it was after that you saw Boda go up towards the motorcycle?
A. Yes.
Q. That is all. What did your husband then do, do you know?
***
A. He came into the house.
Q. Did he go anywhere, so far as you know?
A. Yes.
***
Q. Where?
A. Down to the garage.
***
Q. How soon did you come back into the house after you saw him talking with Boda in front of the house?
***
A. About two minutes.
***
Q. He came in with you after you saw Boda talking with him in front of the house?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he do then?
***
A. He went out of the house.
***
Q. How long was he out of the house at that time?
***
A. Quite a few hours.
***
(Adjourned until 10 a.m., Friday, June 17, 1921.)

June 17, 1921

(Direct Examination resumed.)

***
Q. (By Mr. Williams) I think my last question or two was in regard to your husband going out again after he came into the house and you said he went out and stayed sometime. Did he go away with anybody that time?
A. No.
Q. That is, he was alone, so far as you know, when he left the house that second time?
A. Yes.

Cross-Examination

Q. (By Mr. McAnarney) Well, that night you didn't know a single one of these men you have been describing, did you?
A. No.
Q. Someone has since told you who they were, that is right, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. When you went to the door, you saw a man forty feet away, didn't you?
***
A. Yes, I will say that it was.
Q. Now, is that the man who spoke to you?
A. Yes.
Q. After he spoke to you, what did you do? I assume you are at the doorway, or did you come out on the doorstep, or did you talk to him, and you in the door?
A. I think I stepped down from the step.
Q. After whatever passed between you two, what did you do?
A. I walked up the street towards Brockton.
Q. You didn't enter the house?
A. No.
Q. He asked you a question and you made an answer, I assume?
A. He didn't ask me any question.
Q. He didn't ask anything?
A. No.
Q. Then, all that transpired was that you saw a man forty feet away, and you walked over towards the Bartlett house, is that right?
A. Well, he walked up to me, and I said that my husband would be right out, and that is all that was said.
Q. Without anything being said by him?
A. Not to me.
Q. Then you didn't know the man?
A. No.
Q. And you had never seen him before?
A. No.
Q. Are you telling that just as it was?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. A strange man whom you had never seen before, didn't know who he was, approaches your house, and you say, without his saying anything, "My husband will be right out," and you walked right up the street to Bartlett's? You nod your head, but you didn't speak. That is the situation, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. I now say to you, are you quite sure that is what happened that night?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was your husband then?
A. In the house.
Q. Well, now, as you stepped from your house you noticed two men coming from the opposite direction?
A. Yes.
Q. And you mean, in the opposite direction to the way you walked towards the Bartlett house?
A. Yes.
Q. And those men kept walking?
A. Yes.
Q. Until you went into the Bartlett house?
A. Yes.
Q. Those men didn't stop, so far as you could observe, up to the time that you went into the Bartlett house.
A. No.
Q. Now, you remained in the Bartlett house some ten or fifteen minutes. You wouldn't undertake to say, would you?
A. About ten. Not over.
Q. Would you say sure it wasn't twelve?
A. Yes.
Q. You didn't take the time?
A. No.
Q. That is your new judgment as to the time you stayed in there, ten minutes?
A. About ten minutes.
Q. Whether it was eight or fifteen, you wouldn't now undertake to say?
A. I know it wasn't over ten.
Q. You know it wasn't over ten?
A. I am quite sure it wasn't over ten minutes.
Q. You took no note of the time?
A. No.
Q. We will leave it to your best judgment you were in there about ten minutes. Now, the men that you say walked on, as you went towards the Bartlett house, what direction were they walking in the last you saw them?
A. Towards Brockton.
Q. They were walking towards Brockton?
A. Yes.
Q. And you came into the Bartlett house?
A. Yes.
Q. Those men didn't speak to you?
A. No.
Q. You didn't have any conversation with them?
A. No.
Q. Now, when you came out of the Bartlett house, did you then see anyone?
A. Not when I first came out of the door.
Q. Well, when you had come out of the door, I assume you started to go from the Bartlett house to your home?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, while you are walking from the Bartlett house down to your home, do you see anyone? A. Yes.
Q. You saw two men?
A. Yes.
Q. Coming from or going in what direction?
A. Going towards Bridgewater.
Q. You don't know and have no idea whether those are the two men chat were walking when you went into Mrs. Bartlett's?
MR. KATZMANN. One moment, if your Honor please.
Q. You have no idea, have you, that those were the two men that were walking on the street when you went into the Bartlett house?
MR. KATZMANN. One moment.
THE COURT. Have you any idea whether those were the same men or not?
A. One of them.
Q. Are you sure?
A. I am sure.
MR. McANARNEY. Page 295 of the record. I call your attention to this question, Mrs. Johnson:
Q. Did you walk out in the middle of the street before you started for the Bartlett house?
A. No, I got on the grass a little ways and went on the road afterwards.
Q. You went away toward the Bartlett house, and these men were about forty-five feet away, and they kept walking and did not stop?
"A. No, not that I saw.
"Q. And you kept right on?
 "A. Yes."
***
Q. You gave those-You received those questions and gave those answers, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, it was pretty dark up there, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. "Q. And you turned into the Bartlett house, they kept right on, did they?
"A. It was quite dark up there, and I could not see whether they did or not."
Q. You so answered, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. "Q. Did you not say they did?
"A. I suppose they did. I did not see them."
Q. You so answered?
A. Yes.
Q. "Q. You did not hear them come up the driveway as you went into the Bartlett house?
"A. No.
"Q. Now, the Bartlett house is situated some distance back from the road, is it?
 "A. Yes."
Q. You so answered?
A. Yes.
Q. "Q. There is a good wide lawn in front of it from the road up and nothing in the way?
"A. Just the road."
Q. You answered that, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. "Q. There are some trees on the road?
 "A. Yes."
Q. You so answered, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. "Q. Then you staid there about ten minutes, and started back?
"A. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. "Q. And, on your way back, you saw two men coming from the other direction?
"A. Yes."
A. Yes.
Q. "Q. Of course, at the time you did not know who they were or whether they were the same men or not?
"A. No."
Q. Didn't you?
A. I don't remember if I answered that, or not.
Q. Did you say that you didn't so answer?
THE COURT. Speak up, Mrs. Johnson.
A. I don't know whether I answered that or not, I don't remember.
***
MR. McANARNEY. I will read it again. (Reads.)
 "Q. Of course, at the time you did not know who they were or whether they were the same men or not?
 "A. No."
Q. Do you now say you did not so answer?
A. Probably I answered that.
Q. And if you so answered at that time, you meant to tell the truth, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. As a matter of fact, Mrs. Johnson, having in mind the true situation that night, to wit, a dark night, men who were entire strangers to you, and the only view that you got of the faces of those men was practically when the searchlight of an automobile flashed or was on one of the
men, are you prepared to say that you can definitely identify anyone of those men?
A. Yes.
Q. Notwithstanding the fact that you now say it was true when you testified to it that you don't know whether the men who walked up the street are the same men that you saw ten minutes later?
A. One of them.
Q. Did you not say there that you couldn't tell whether or not they were the same men?
MR. KATZMANN. One moment, if your Honor please. That is not the question.
***
MR. McANARNEY. I am not going to have any misunderstanding on that. That there be no misunderstanding, or any occasion to misunderstand, I now repeat that question:
"Q. Of course, at the time you did not now who they were or whether they were the men or not"
MR. KATZMANN. "The same men".
MR. McANARNEY. "the same men or not?
 "A. No."
Q. You knew that question meant "men", that "they" meant men, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. No misunderstanding about that, is there?
A. No.
MR. McANARNEY. Again, on the same line. "11" on the left margin of the record Mr. Katzmann. (Reads.)
"Q. Now, were they the same two men who followed you as you went from your house to Bartlett's?
 "A. I don't know; I would not say for sure. They looked like them, in the glance I took when I came out of the house.
 "Q. When you came out of the house, did you get a good look at them before you went to the Bartlett house?
 "A. Well, I could just see he had a derby and a long coat and his face looked dark, and I don't think I would recognize him if I had not seen him."
Q. Now, after that night that you saw him there, when next did you see him?
A. At the Brockton police station.
Q. That is where, but I mean when. How long after your seeing the men at that incident at your home, how long after that was it you saw them at the Brockton police station?
A. The next night.
Q. The next night. Now, dealing with- Now, you identify one of these men, and you called him, as it was spelled out here, Orcianni, or some name like that; you gave, before we closed last night, some identification of him, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you recognize that man's face last night?
A. No.
Q. Did you recognize a single feature-
A. No.
Q. -of the man. At Bridgewater that night as the man that you saw later at Brockton?
A. No.
Q. Whether he was light or dark complexion, you don't know?
A. No.
Q. Whether he was blue-eyed or black-eyed, you don't know?
A. No.
A. All you recognized of a man who was pointed out to you was a coat and hat, that is right, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you now claim to have recognized the face which is now called Sacco's before you went into the Johnson house-the Bartlett house, I mean?
A. I don't know what you mean.
Q. Do you now claim to have recognized the face that is now called the Sacco face before you went into the Bartlett house?
A. I am quite sure he is the same one.
***
Q. Now, in view of your question and answer as I have read to you wherein you answered No, do you now want to say that you recognized Sacco before you went into the Bartlett house?
A. I would know him if I saw him again.
***
THE COURT. Can you answer it, Mrs. Johnson, by Yes or No.
THE WITNESS. Yes.
Q. Then by that I assume that you mean you did recognize him before you went into the Bartlett house?
A. Before I did, yes.
***
Q. It is called to my attention in regard to the identification of Orcianni that he was behind the light, wasn't he, Orcianni?
A. Right behind it.
Q. And all you saw of him was the back of his coat and his hat, wasn't it?
A. No, the front of his coat and hat.
Q. That is all you saw of that man, the front of his coat and hat?
A. Yes.
Q. His height, weight, complexion or anything, but still you say you identify him?
A. Why, just his coat and hat, that is all.
Q. Then you don't undertake to identify this man, except you identify a hat and coat that you saw that night?
A. Yes.
***
Q. "Q. And you saw that man later in the police station at Brockton  " referring to Sacco, and your answer was "Yes"?
A. Yes.
Q. "Q. Who was, you say, Sacco?
"A. Yes.
"Q. He was much heavier than the taller man, and he towered over him?
 "A. No, I would not say that. I should say the top of his head was over the other man."
Q. You so answered, didn't you?
A. No.
Q. You didn't make that answer? I will read the question and the answer once more.
"Q. He was much heavier than the taller man, and he towered over him?
"A. No, I would not say that. I should say the top of his head was over the other man."
Q. Did you not say, on the 22nd day of June, last year, did you not so testify, Madam?
A. I don't remember of saying that.
Q. You don't remember. If you did, you meant it as being the truth, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Madam, there was one thing I omitted to ask you. You heard no conversation between those two men, whoever they were, who went up and down, and the others, did you? I mean the men at the motorcycle?
A. No.
Q. You heard no conversation between themselves, those two who walked on the right side?
A. No.
Q. So there was not, so far as your hearing and sight could tell you, there was no conversation between those two men and whoever was between them and the motorcycle, and you heard no conversation between those two men?
A. No.
MR. McANARNEY. That is all.

Redirect Examination

Q. (By Mr. Williams) If I remember correctly, Mrs. Johnson, yesterday you described the coat by which you recognized a certain man, as a mackinaw coat, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you notice any pattern on that coat?
***
A. Just like any other mackinaw, with a belt, a short coat.
Q. Did you notice anything else about it?
***
A. It was a plaid mackinaw coat.
Q. Do you know what kind of a plaid?
A. No, I don't think I do.
Q. When you say a "plaid" just what do you mean by a plaid?
A. Most all colors.
Q. Well, can you tell us anything more about it than it was all colors?
***
A. No.
Q. Do you recall anything about any pattern?
A. No.
Q. Now, do you recall anything about the hat of that man that had the mackinaw coat?
A. Yes.
Q. What kind of a cap or hat was it?
A. It seemed to be a soft hat, pulled over the eyes.
Q. Now, you say the next night-did you say the next night-
A. Yes.
Q. -you say a man in the Brockton police station?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did that man have on?
A. When I first came in he had on-They brought him in, and he had on a khaki shirt, and the next
 time he had on a coat and hat.
Q. And what coat and hat?
A. Mackinaw coat and soft hat.
Q. Now, what do you say as to the mackinaw coat and soft hat which you saw on the man in the Brockton police station?
A. What do I say?
Q. Well, that is a blind question, and you may strike it out. Can you tell these gentlemen, having in mind what you had seen the night before on May 5, what the mackinaw coat and hat that you saw on the man you saw in the Brockton police station looked like?
A. The same.
Q. Are you sure of that?
A. Positive.
Q. That is all. Did you tell us yesterday who that man was?
A. Yes.
Q. What was his name?
A. Orcianni.
Re-Cross-E xamination

Q. (By Mr. McAnarney) You say it seemed to be a soft hat.
A.Yes.
Q. When you say "it seemed to be a soft hat," you have some doubts in your mind as to the exact character of that hat, don't you?
A. No.
Q. Then, your words are idle talk, are they, when you say, "It seemed to be a soft hat," Didn't you mean just what you said when you said that?
A. I mean it was a soft hat.
Q. Why didn't you say so?
A. Well, it was a soft hat because it was pulled down over the eyes. A stiff hat, you couldn't pull it the way this was.
Q. You mean, it was not a derby and not a soft hat?
A. It was a soft hat.
Q. Then, the man had on a soft hat. What color?
A. It was dark.
Q. Whether it was dark brown or black, you wouldn't say?
A. No.
Q. Now, he had on a mackinaw, just the same as any other mackinaw didn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. Nothing different than any other mackinaw?
A. No.
Q. And he had on a soft hat, dark brown or black or something in between there in color, didn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. And that is all, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. So that any man of about that size that they would have led out to you that day at Brockton, who had on a mackinaw the same as any mackinaw, and who had on a soft hat bent down, would be the man you would identify, wouldn't it?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, you have no other way of identifying him, have you?
A. No.
MR. McANARNEY. That is all.

Redirect Examination

Q. (By Mr. Williams) You say "All mackinaws look alike," What do you mean by that, Mrs. Johnson?
***
A. Why, they generally are short, plaid coats with a belt, that is all I know.
Q. Was there anything about this mackinaw coat in regard to colors, pattern or anything that is distinctive?
***
A. No.
***
Q. Is there anything further you can tell us in regard to that mackinaw coat, which you have not told us, Mrs. Johnson?
A. I don't think there is.
MR. WILLIAMS. That is all. You may inquire.
MR. McANARNEY. No further questions.
MR. WILLIAMS. You may be excused, Mrs. Johnson.

Sacco & Vanzetti Trial Page