Thursday, June 9, 1921.

James F. Bostock, Sworn.

Q. [By Mr. Williams.] What is your name?
A. James F. Bostock.
Q. Where do you live?
A. Brockton.
Q. Where in Brockton?
A. 25 Columbia Street.
Q. What is your business or occupation?
A. Machine business.
Q. Do you install machines?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is your work connected with machinery in shoe factories?
A. I am a millwright.
Q. In the course of your business do you have occasion to visit various shoe factories?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Looking after machines?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you engaged in that same business April 15th of last year?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you in South Braintree on that day?
A. Yes.
Q. What time did you get there in the morning?
A. The train leaves Brockton at five minutes to seven.  I should say somewhere around twenty to twenty-five minutes past seven.
Q. That you got to South Braintree?
A. Yes.
Q. What part of the day were you at South Braintree?
A. I was there until the train left there that night, twenty five minutes past four.
Q. Did you do any work there that day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in what factory or factories?
A. Slater & Morrill's.
Q. Which factory?
A. Both factories.
Q. That is, the one at the railroad station and the one down the hill?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Across the track.  Did you know Alessandro Berardelli?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long had you known him?
A. Oh, I should say probably four or five months.
Q. Did you know Parmenter?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long had you known him?
A. Fifteen years.
Q. Did you see either or both of those men on that day?
A. Yes,sir.
Q. At what time or times?
A. I saw them a number of times during the day.
Q. Did you see them during the forenoon?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have any talk with them?
A. No, not that I know of, nothing particular.
Q. Did you see them in the afternoon?
A. Yes, sir.
Q; And where did you see them in the afternoon?
A. Why, I met them in the afternoon.  I left the factory at three o'clock or thereabouts.
Q. When you say "the factory" which one do you mean?
A. I mean the factory at the east side of the track beyond Rice & Hutchins.
Q. Beyond Rice& Hutchins?
A. Yes.
Q. That is the Slater & Morrill factory down the grade?  A. Yes.
Q. You left there at three o'clock.
A. I left to take the quarter past three electric car that goes to Brockton.  It was in the neighborhood of three or probably five minutes past three, in that neighborhood.
Q. Now, will you tell the jury what you did as you left the factory and after you left the factory, and what you saw in connection with this shooting?
A. Why, I left the factory and as I came from the factory there was a man filling Mr. Slater's car with gasoline and they flowed it over the car, and I stopped and watched them wipe it off.
Q. Whereabouts were they doing that?
A. Right at the end of the factory where there is a cement house, what they call a cement house.
Q. Who was doing the filling?
A. Mr. Wade, and the man that drives the car was there.
Q. Will you point out on Exhibit No. 9 where the car was being filled with gas?
A. Right on this step, right there [indicating].
Q. Hold it up to the jury.  A. Right at the end of the steps, right here [indicating].
MR. WILLIAMS. [To the jury.] The witness points to the end of the steps, he says.
Q. That [indicating] is what you mean by "cement house"?
A. Yes.
Q. That little house there [indicating] ?
A. Yes.
Q. Go ahead, if you will.
A. I stood there and watched him fill that car.  Then I crossed the street, and as I came up the street there was a pair of horses with one of these scoops.  A man was hollering at the horses, and I stopped here to see what he was hollering at.
Q. Now, I am going to stop you there for a minute.  Where were those horses, in what position with reference to the street?  A. Those horses stood where they were digging out a restaurant for the Rice & Hutchins factory.
Q. On which side of the street?
A. On the left-hand side, as I came up.
Q. What say?
A. As I walked up the street, it was on my righthand side, yes, sir, on my right-hand side.
Q. How near the edge of Pearl Street or the traveled part of Pearl Street was this excavation going on?
A. Which is Pearl Street?
Q. That is the street the factories are on.
A. How near, did you say?
Q. Yes, how near the traveled part of Pearl Street was the excavation being made?
A. Probably five or ten feet from the street, a very few feet in from the street.
Q. Will you tell the jury how these horses were standing or were located in reference to Pearl Street?
A. They stood in this direction [indicating].  The horses stood and the man stood here [ikidicating] with the scoop.  He was driving them in towards Braintree.
Q. Were the horses headed in towards Pearl Street or towards the excavation?
A. Towards the excavation.
Q. Where was the scoop?
A. The scoop stood,-the man stood driving the horses this way [indicating].  The man held the scoop this way [indicating].  The horses were going in that direction.
Q. In towards the excavation?
A. Yes.
Q. How far from the street was the scoop and the man?
A. I should say probably five or ten feet, such a matter.
Q. You stopped there, you say?  A. Yes, sir, I stopped there.
Q. Go on from that point.
A. I walked up the street, and there is a fence on my right-hand side where there is a tank that the railroad use for filling water, and I was on just this side of the tank.
Q. When you say "this side", what do you mean by "this"?
A. I mean to the east of the tank.  I saw Parmenter and Berardelli coming down the street and as I walked towards them Parmenter says to me, "Bostock, when you go up by, you go into the other factory and fix the pulley on the motor," and I says to him, "I am going to get this quarter past three car to Brockton to do a repair job,' ' ' and as I started to turn around to leave, I heard two or three shots fired, and as I swung around there were two men shooting at him.
Q. Now, Mr. Witness-
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You walked up the street and you swung around-
A. Yes.
Q. -and you were looking down Pearl Street, I take it?
A. Yes.
Q. When I say "down" I mean looking east.
A. I am looking at this direction, this way [indicating].
Q. I just want to get it in a general way.  You swung around, looking down Pearl Street east toward the factory from which you had come?
A. Yes.
Q. Having that in mind, will you describe to the jury where the actors in that scene were and what you saw them do?  Supposing you are standing right there in Pearl Street as you say you were.  Tell the jury with that in mind what was done.
A. As I swung around, I stood as I swung around.  Those two men stood.  I stood in the direction of that direction from them, and Berardelli-
THE COURT.  That don't help the record any.  You ought to agree on-
Q. When you say "these men" we do not know which you mean.
A. Well, Parmenter and Berardelli.
Q. Where were they?
A. They stood off in the direction of a diagonal direction the same as that man sits there from me.
Q. Let me help you out.  Suppose you got here a fence along the right-hand side of that.  Suppose you got this rail from here indicating down to the first spectators as the fence along the righ-hand side of Pearl Street as you look down.  Now, bearing in mind this fence for the piirposes of the description this morning, tell us what happened.
A. As I looked down there, this Berardelli was on his knees in a crouched position as though he was guarding with his hand over his head, as though he was guarding himself, and this man stood off.
Q. You can get down in front of the jury, if you want to and show that.  Berardelli was in what position, now?
A. Berardelli stood as though he was in a crouched position, this position (indicating].  This other man stood, the same as if he stood there [indicating], closer to him than that was to him; I shouldn't think, when he fired, that man was-
Q. You haven't told us that he fired yet.
A. He stood in that direction and fired at him almost as if the man was touching him when he fired at him.
Q. Which way was Berardel li heading or facing at that time?
A. He was facing the factory, stood off here [indicating].  He was facing in this way, and the other man, this man stood off in the street out the same as if he stood off by that pole there [indicating].
Q. Just bear in mind', Mr. Bostock, what I suggested in regard to the fence.  Supposing this [indicating] is the fence down there.  You understand the fence that I am referring to is the rail fence by the side of the factory?
A. I understand.
Q. I am not referring to the board fence.
A. I understand.
Q. Supposing this [indicating] is the fence and this [indicating] is the sidewalk.
A. Yes.
Q. This mat right here.
A. Yes.
Q. Having in mind this fence and the factory is at the right, and the street is over there, will you put yourself in the position Berardelli was in?  A. I should say I was standing about in this position or I should say I was standing in about this position [indicating].
Q. Where was the man you say that was doing the shooting?
A. Standing off from the street, probably not five feet away from him, notright on to him, practically on to him.
Q. How many men did you see down there at that time?
A. Four; Mr. Berardelli, Mr. Parmenter, and the two that was doing the shooting.
Q. Where was Parmenter and where was the other man you say was doing the shooting?
A. Parmenter had left and started across the street in that direction [indicating].
Q. You say "in that direction." At what angle with the fence we have been talking about?
A. Well, the fence, if this was the fence [indicating], Parmenter started to walk in this direction [indicating] very slow, and as he got probably twenty-five or thirty feet, he started to go down, and somebody caught him.  When he started to go down there was a stone and grass place and a stone step, and as he started to fall somebody helped him and lowered him.  I could not tell who it was.
Q. Tell us what either of the men you say were doing the shooting did after you had turned around and how many shots, if any, you heard fired?
A. Well, I couldn't say.  I should say there was probably eight or ten shots.
Q. What did you see this man you saw standing over Berardelli did after that?
A. Why, he stood there over him.  He shot, I should say, he shot at Berardelli probably four or five times.  He stood guard over him.
Q. And then what happened?
A. I started to walk in the direction towards him.  Probably I was away from him 50 or 60 feet, such a matter, and as I turned they swung around and shot at me twice.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I started for the railroad crossing.
Q. Now, at the time they shot at you, where was Parmenter and the other shooter?  When I say "the other one" the one who was not at that time shooting at Berardelli?
A. They stood practically where they were.
Q. Where was the second?  If I may call him "bandit" simply for the purposes of questioning, where was the second bandit as to location, with reference to the man who was shooting at Berardelli?
A. Why, he stood, I should not think he was a very few feet away off from Berardelli, and he probably stood away from him five or 10 feet.  He stood looking down the road and as he stood looking down the road he made a beckon in that direction.
Q. What happened then?
A. The automobile came up the street.
Q. Had you seen that automobile before?
A. No, sir.
Q. Where was it when you first saw it?
A. It was the Slater factory.  As I saw it coming up, it was, well-
Q. Look at any one of those pictures.
A. This one here would be the best one, I guess.  I should say that was probably-
Q. I mean, when you first saw it coming ulyr A. When I first saw it coming up, it was just coming up towards Slater's factory, went up beyond in here.
MR. WILLIAMS.  The witness is pointing to Exhibit 9, gentlemen.
Q. It was coming up where?
A. Coming up in this direction [indicating].
Q. How manybandits-using that term again-did you see on the road at anytime?
A. Four.
Q. During the shooting?
A. Three on the road.  I saw the two that done the shooting and one other got off the running-board or got out of the auto, I could not positively swear whether he got out of the automobile or whether he was on the running-board, but he got outland helped throw the two cans, or boxes, whatever they were, that had the pay roll, in.
Q. Now, take up the story from the time you saw the automobile coming up Py Slater's there, tell us what happened, what you saw happen?
A. I saw first, I saw the machine come up.  I saw this man come up to where the--
Q. When you say "this man" which one do you mean?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. You meant the third man you saw?
A. The third man, yes.  He got up, and when he got to within about probably 10 or 15 feet he came out of that automobile and run to where the other two stood, and he picked up one can and one of the bandits -Who stood took the other, and the man who was with them got into the back seat of the car, and as I say, as he came towards the railroad crossing he crawled from the back seat to the front seat.
Q. Which side of the automobile were the money boxes put in?
A. The left-hand side.
Q. The left-hand side, going which way?
A. As you come up Pearl Street.
Q. That is, as the automobile comes up, that would be the left-hand side?
A. The automobile comes up Pearl Street in this direction [indicating], and they were on the side the Rice & Hutchins factory was on.
Q. How far was Parmenter from the automobile as the automobile proceeded up the street?
A. Oh, I should say 20 or 25 feet.
Q. How far was Berardelli from the automobile as it proceeded up the street?
A. Why, he could not have been more than eight or 10 feet.  He laid in the street, just off the sidewalk.
Q. Just off the sidewalk?  A. Yes.  He laid right by the corner.  He could not have been but a very few feet.  I could not say.  Probably five feet, such a matter.
Q.- Now, going back to the shooting for a moment, you say you heard several shots.  Can you tell the jury how many shots you saw any particular bandit fire?
A. No, sir, I could not.
Q. How many shots did you see the man who was standing over Berardelli fire?
A. He fired, one, two, three, why, I should say he fired five, and he fired two at me.
Q. And how many shots, if any, did you see the second bandit fire, the other man who was standing there with the paymasters?
A. Why, I should say he shot probably two, I should say he shot about the same number.
Q. In which direction, then, did he shoot, as far as you saw him?
A. He shot at Parmenter twice as he stood in front of him.  As Parmenter walked across the street, he shot twice where he was going, to his back.
Q. Any other shots from him?
A. Not that I could see.
Q. Did you see any shots from the man you described as the third
A. No, sir.
Q. The car came up the street?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were you at that time as it reached the crossing?
A. I was at the end of this fence.  As it reached the crossing, I was right by the corner of the fence.
Q. You say "the fence." You are now pointing to the wooden fence by the water tank?  A. Yes, sir, I was just around that corner. When the car passed that hill, it came up in first speed.  Then he threw it into second, as he got beyond this tank, and he did not throw it in high speed until he got to the railroad crossing.  If I laid out at arm's length I could have touched the spokes of the car as it passed me.
Q. You were right around the corner?
A. I was at the end, right around the corner, at this fence.
Q. Show the jury where you were when the car came up the hill?
A. I was right around the corner of that fence, right in there [indicating].
Q. Pointing to Exhibit 5. A. Just right around that corner.
MR. WILLIAMS. [To the jury.] The witness says he was around this corner of the fence.
Q. What did you observe as to the car or the inmates of the car, as it came up to the crossing?  A. I saw it was a Buick car.  As it passed me I did not watch it past me a great ways because I started, as it passed me, I went back to where Berardelli was laying, but as it passed me I noticed it, the back end glass was broken out and the covering on one side was flying out and then one of the bandits laid over on the outside of the car, out in about that direction [indicating], firing as he came along all the way up the street.
Q. What part of the car was he firing from?
A. From the frontend opposite from the,-as he came up the street he was firing right from the front end.  He laid out of the car, in about that direction [indicating] -
Q. From the time the car reached the crossing, as it went up the street, did you hear any shots fired?  A. As 4 went up the street?
Q. I mean from the time it got to the hill, from the time it left the crossing to go up further, did you hear any shots fired?  A. I heard him fire shots until they got to where there was a lot of automobiles in front of the cobbling shop as he got up the road, and I heard him fire from then.  Then I did not stop there.  I went back to where Berardelli was.
Q. Did you see the crossing tender at any time?
A. Yes, sir.  I hollered to the crossing tender to lower the gate.
Where did you see the crossing tender?
A. I saw him as I was at the corner of this fence.  I saw him right across from me.
Q. Whereabouts?
A. In South Braintree.
Q. I did not mean that,entirely.  You know where the crossing shanty is?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was he with reference to his shanty?
A. He was right by the end of the gates at the shanty.
Q., Did you notice any curtains on the car?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What curtains, if any, did you notice on the car?
A. I noticed the curtain in the back of it, and I noticed the curtain in where the,-with the glass broken out and the curtain on the side was practically flopping back and forth.
Q. Could you tell how many men were in the car, or not?
A. No, sir, I could not.  I could say there was four, but I could not say there was any more.
Q. Did you notice anything through the back window of the car?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was that window in or out?
A. That window was out.
Q. After the car passed you, you say you went down the street?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where was the body of Berardelli lying when you got there?
A. He laid, he set, just off the sidewalk, and as I remember him, he wasn't laying clear down.  He laid in a kind of crouched position, and I helped to lay him down, and he was [witness makes puffing movement with lips], and every time he breathed blood flowed, was coming from his mouth.
Q. Having in mind-will you step down-having in mind again this is the rail there, and this the sidewalk, will you place this stick in the position Berardelli was when you got down there, with the pointed end to represent his head, if you get me right?
A. I get you right, all right, I guess.  The Rice & Hutchins factory-
Q. No, here is the fence down here [indicating] ?
A. Yes.
Q. The Rice & Hutchins factory is where the jury is.
A. Here is the fence here [indicating].  Here is the sidewalk [indicating], outside the fence, and I should say Berardelli laid in the direction of about-
Q. This is the street and this is the sidewalk.  Here is the gutter [indicating].
A. I should say he laid about that far (indicating] from the sidewalk.
Q. Just lay that stick down, will you, in the position his body was in?
A. I do not know.  I could show you more.  He set in a kind of a position, well, I do not know whether I could get in it.  He set in a position of about like that [indicating], as I seen him.
Q. At that angle with the fence and sidewalk [indicating] ?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you point out in any of these pictures the point in the street where he was?
A. I could point.
Q. I will show you Exhibit 7 and ask if you can show on that?
A. Well, I should say he set, as near as I could figure it, I should say he set in about that position.
Q. Let me hold it up to the jury.  Will you just point there?  Probably you can point with the rubber end.  That doesn't make any mark.
A. I should say a little, just get this in.
Q. Take time to look it over?
A. I should say he set in about that position.
Q. May I hold that pencil right there?
A. Yes, sir. [Mr.  Williams shows photograph to jury and counsel.]
MR.  WILLIAMS.  The witness says the body of Berardelli was about there.
A. This photograph shows these things.
MR.  WILLIAMS. [To the jury.] Can you see it?
THE WITNESS.  The photograph shows the shade of that.  I could show that better if I had a photograph.
Q. You are now pointing to Exhibit what, Exhibit 8?
A. Well, it shows-about the same.  I should think it was about in that.
Q. Pointing to Exhibit 8 the witness says
THE COURT.  We will take our morning recess.
MR.  WILLIAMS.  May I just ask this question, for the purposes of the record?
Q. You will note that one where you have pointed and where I am now holding the pencil?
A. Yes.
Q. And you are pointing to a place west of the telegraph pole, assuming Pearl Street goes east and west?
A. Yes, that is west.
Q. And how far west of that telegraph pole was the body of Berardelli lying?
A. I should say probably 8 to 10 feet, such a matter.
MR.  WILLIAMS.  All right, step down.
[Short recess.]

James F. Bostock, Continued

Q. (By Mr. Williams.) Did you see any of these bandits as you came up the street?  I mean, as you came up the street from Slater & Morrill's?
A. Why, yes.
Q. Where were they at that time?
A. Leaning on the fence.
Q. Mrhereabouts?
A. Well, they was leaning on the fence.  I could show you on the picture.
Q. Go ahead.  These are the pictures right in front of you, if they will help you any.  That is what they are for.  That is picture, exhibit No. 7.
A. They stood, when I passed fhem-
Q. Step right down in front of the jury, and point out where you saw them leaning on the fence at that time.
(The witness stands in front of the jury, and indicates a picture.)
A. I should say they stood about there, right about opposite that telegraph pole.  One stood about that position.  One stood leaning on the fence in that position, and the other stood leaning towards him.
Q. Near together, or far apart?
A. Practically right together.
Q. Just point on the picture where you saw them.  A. I should say
about there, just probably right across opposite that pole.
Q. Now- A. About that position.
Q. Now, did you see, during the shooting or just after, any or either of the bandits do anything with their gun?
A. I don't get your question.
Q. Did you see any of the men who were doing the shooting do anything with their gun either during the shooting or after, except shoot?
A. Why, I should say one of them filled his gun.
Q. Do you know which one that was?  A. I should say it was the one that shot at Berardelli.  I don't know whether- As he shot his gun, he reached for his pocket, in this direction, slipped something out of his pocket, and acted as though he was slipping it in the gun.  I don't know anything about a gun.
Q. At what stage of the proceedings was that?
A. That was while they were waiting for the car to come up the road.
Q. How long was it, or how short a time was it, after Berardelli fell that the car came up to where his body was, can you give us any idea?
A. Well, I don't know.  It seemed quite a little while, but probably it wasn't.  I should say probably, at the least, three or four minutes.
Q. Will you now describe, so far as you can, the appearance of the men who were doing the shooting?
A. Why, there was two dressed in- The two that was doing the shooting was dressed in sort of dark clothes, with caps, dark caps.  I should say they was fellows of medium build, fellows not quite so heavy as I am.
Q. Can you tell us anything further about their appearance?
A. Why, they appeared to be foreigners.
Q. Can you tell us what nationality?
A. Well, I should call them Italians.
Q. Notice anything about how their faces looked?
A. Why, I told you they resembled, to me I have seen Italian fruit peddlers, and as I saw them as I passed them I thought they was Italian fruit peddlers. That is what I thought they was as I passed them.
Q. Can you tell us anything more definitely how their features looked to you?
A. They was smooth face, dark complected.  One I should call swarthy, dark complected.
Q. Can you describe the appearance of the man you saw leaning out of the car and shooting going over the crossing?
A. Well, I don't know as I could really describe him.
Q. How far was he from you?  I understand you were around the fence at that time.  How far was he from you when you saw him leaning out and shooting?
A. Well, as I was around the fence he was coming towards me, and, as I told you, if I had layed around the corner of the fence I could have almost reach and touch that car as it passed me.
Q. How fast was the car going as it went over the crossing?
A. He threw his car into high speed as he went over the crossing.  He was just getting the car into high speed.  The car coming up the hill choked.  I thought it was going to stop.  Coming up the hill it acted as if it choked, that they gave too much gasoline in it.  That car had not really got under speed until they got to the other side of the crossing.
Q. Do you know whether you have ever seen any of these men implicated in the shooting since that time?
A. Yes- I don't know as l have seen any of the men implicated in the shooting, no, sir.
Q. Have you been able to identify any of those men?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you taken to the Brockton police station at any time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you look at the defendants at that time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Could you tell whether or not they were any of the men?
A. No, sir, I could not tell whether or not they was, no, sir.
Q. Did you see anything near the scene of the shooting when you went down there except the bodies of Berardelli and Parmenter?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did you pick up any shells there?
A. Yes, I picked up some shells.
Q. Where abouts did you.pick them up?
A. I picked them up just close to where the shooting was, about two or three feet from the shooting.
Q. What did you do with them?
A. I think Mr. Fraher had them.
Q. Mr. Fraher?
A. I left them in Slater & Morrill's office.
Q. How many did you pick up?
A. Three or four.
Q. You turned them over to Mr. Fraher?
A. No. I left them in the office of Slater & Morrill, in one of the desks.
Q. Is that all you found there?
A. That is all.  I saw some others picked up.  I saw some others had some others, but that is all I picked up.
Q. Did you help take either body anywhere from where it lay in the road?
A. I helped pick up Mr. Parmenter and take him into the house across the street.
Q. Mr. Colbert's house?
A. I don't know.
Q. That first house?
A. That first house just as you pass around the corner.
Q. Do anything with Mr. Berardelli's body?
A. Mr. Berardelli, I wiped his mouth out, and he lay in my arm, and as he lay in my arm I thought he died in my arm.
Q. How was he dressed, do you remember?
A. He had on a dark suit, if I remember right.
Q. Did you see Berardelli do anything during the shooting, I mean, make any movements other than you have described to the jury here?
A. No, I did not.  I thought he spoke to them.  He acted to them as though he knew the men and spoke to them.
Q. How did he act that made you think that?
A. Why,-well, I don't know how he acted, but as he was in this position he said something.  I couldn't say what it was, whether he was hollering for help, or what it was.  I was getting out of the way myself.  I couldn't tell what he was saying.
Q. You say you have known Berardelli for some time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know whether or not he had a revolver?
A. I have seenhim with a revolver in the shop, yes.
Q. How many times have you seen him with a revolver?
A. I have seen him a number of times.  I have joshed him with the revolver, asked him if he carried it to shoot rats.
Q. Where was it his custom to carry the revolver, if you know?
MR. McANARNEY: How is that important?
THE COURT: I don't see.  There is no claim it was brought into use, and there is no claim he did any shooting.  There is no claim here, that I know of, that warranted those who did the shooting in doing what they did.  There is no claim there was any shooting in self defense that I know of.
MR. WILLIAMS: I think it will be material as the trial progresses.
MR. WILLIAMS: I think it will be material as the trial progresses, and that is why I am asking this question.
THE COURT: Step to the desk, and inform me wherein its materiality may later appear.
(Conference at the bench.)

THE COURT: You may inquire.
MR. WILLIAMS: What was the question?
(The question is read.)
A. In his hip pocket.
Q. How long before the shooting had you last seen the revolver in
Berardelli's possession?
A. I think the Saturday night before the shooting.
Q. And when was the shooting?
A. Thursday.
Q. That is, you saw it the previous Saturday?
A. Yes, the previous Saturday.
Q. What kind of a revolver was it, do you know?
A. No, I couldn't tell you the make of it.  I don't know anything about revolvers.  It was a 38 calibre revolver, that is all I can tell you.  I don't know.  I never owned one.
Q. What did it look like?
A. It was a nickel-plated revolver.
Q. It was 38 caliber?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you saw him have it the Saturday before the shooting?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long, to your knowledge, had he possessed that revolver?
A. I couldn't tell you.  I have seen it with him a number of times.  I couldn't tell you how long he had it.
Q. Just roughly?
A. Probably a month or two.  Ever since I worked at the factory.  I had been working at the factory there at that time probably two months.
Q. You had known Berardelli during that time?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. WILLIAMS: Just a minute, Mr. McAnarney, please.
(Mr.  Williams shows a revolver to the witness.)
Q. Will you examine that revolver?
THE COURT: May I inquire if there are any bullets or shells in it?
MR. WILLIAMS: It does not look so to me, sir.
THE COURT: Well, I want to know for sure.  I remember in another state they did have a very serious accident.
MR. WILLIAMS: There are no bullets in it.
Q. Can you say whether or not the revolver that you saw in Berardelli's possession was similar in appearance to the revolver I now show you?
MR. MOORE: I object, if your Honor please.
THE COURT: Well, on the assurance I have been given, I think I shall receive it.
MR. MOORE: I object to the form of the question.
Q. To the best of your knowledge, belief or recollection, is the revolver that I now show you like in appearance to the one you saw in Berardelli's possession?
MR. MOORE: That I object to.
THE COURT: You may answer.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor will save me an exception?
THE COURT: Certainly.
THE WITNESS: Do you want me to answer?
A. Well, I should say it is a revolver similar to that, yes; that kind of a revolver.
Q. Can you tell us how many shots there were in the revolver which you saw on Berardelli?
A. No, sir, I could not.
MR. WILLIAMS: You may inquire.

Cross Examination

Q. (By Mr. McAnarney.) You had known Berardelli how long?
A. Well, I should say I had known Berardelli-let me see-I should think five or six months.
Q. What was the occasion of your first meeting him?
A. Why, he was an officer at the factory, and I had occasions to be at the factory early mornings to do repair work, and he was a guard and would open the door and let me in.
Q. When did you first know that he carried a revolver?
A. Why, I have seen him with a revolver a good many mornings when I went there I knew he was an officer, and I have seen him with a revolver.  I joshed him about it, and asked him if he carried it to shoot rats, or what he carried it for.
Q. That is when you first saw him have it?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you got used to seeing him carry a revolver?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see him with more than one kind of a revolver?
A. No, sir.  I never took any particular notice of that, but I think once he showed it to me.
Q. When did he show you this revolver?
A. I couldn't tell you exactly when it was, but one morning right at the elevator.  I got there, if I remember-I got there on the train that left quarter to six, and he was at the door and let me in.  I knew him quite well, and he fooled with me,and I asked him if he had his gun.
Q. You knew he always carried a gun?
A. Yes, I knew he always carried a gun, and he showed it to me that particular morning, and I looked at the gun.
Q. Why did you ask him if he carried a gun, you knowing he always carried it?
A. Because he used to let me in, that is all particularly.  I asked him.
Q. You knew he always carried a revolver?
A. Yes, I knew he always carried a revolver.  I had seen it with him.
Q. And you saw it before this morning you asked him about it?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, does it stand out clear in your mind that this morning you asked him if he had a revolver?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, I suppose that he told you he did?
A. Yes.
Q. What else was said?
A. That was all.  No particular reason for asking him, at all-
Q. You have answered my question.  And nothing more said?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you going in the door or were you in a room when you asked him that?
A. I was going in the hallway.  He unlocked the door and let me in.
Q. And you passed by where?
A. Passed by him.
Q. Where did you go?
A. Upstairs-where the elevator was.  No, down stairs.  I went right straight through into the factory.
Q. Any other time did you ask him about his revolver?
A. Yes, a number of times,-because I joshed him on his gun.  I was fooling with him, carrying a gun at the factory.
Q. Did you tell him he ought not to carry one?
A. No, I never told him.  I never owned one.  I don't think anyone ought to carry one.
Q. Just answer my question.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you say to him?
A. What did I say to him?
Q. That is the question.
A. I asked him if he had his gun.
Q. What did you say to him the second time?
A. I didn't say nothing to him.
Q. You say you spoke to him about the gun?
A. Why, I asked him if he had the gun.
Q. The same as the first time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he say to that?
A. Why, he had his gun in his pocket, that is all.
Q. What did he say?
A. Nothing.
Q. Was silence his answer to that second time you asked him if he
had his gun?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Another time did you ask him if he had his gun?
A. I don't know if I asked him a dozen times.
Q. Did you?
A. I don't know if I asked him a dozen times; I don't know how many times.  I joshed him on that gun a good many times, I am telling you.
Q. In your best judgment, how many times did you ask this question if he carried a gun?
A. Two or three times.
Q. Two or three times?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you have told us relative to what he said to you twice about
carrying a gun?
A. Yes.
Q. And what he did once?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that he had it the other time, and did not take it out?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, the third time, what did you say to him that time?
A. I didn't say nothing particular.  I just asked him if he had his gun, that was all.
Q. What time of the day was that?
A. Why, I was there mornings probably-
Q. Do you remember what time of the day it was?
A. No, I couldn't tell you.  It was always in the morning, because I was there early mornings
Q. I am not asking you when you were there, only on this occasion.  Do you remember what you said to him on this third occasion?
A. No, sir, I don't.
Q. Have you any recollection?
A. No, sir.
Q. When you asked him if he had the revolver, you couldn't say
when you asked him?
A. No.
Q. And he did not take it out?
A. No, sir.
Q. On none of the occasions when you asked him if he had the revolver did he take it out?
A. Yes, sir, on one occasion he took it out.
Q. When was that?
A. I think that was the first time.  I asked him if he carried a gun.
Q. You knew he carried one?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were joshing him?
A. I was joshing him.
Q. I think you told me the first time that he said he did, and that was
all that transpired?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there more than that transpired the first time?
A. No,sir.
Q. Well, I now ask you did he any of these times take the revolver out?
A. One time he took the revolver out.
Q. Which time?
A. The first time I asked him.
Q. Very well.  The first time you asked him did he carry a revolver?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he say to you?
A. Why, he showed it to me.
Q. Did he say anything?
A. No, sir.
Q.Then he never said anything to you.  He took it out of his pocket, or did he have it in his hand?
A. He took it out of his pocket.
Q. What did he do?
A. He showed it to me, that is all.
Q. Did he show it to you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he hold it in his hand, or lay it on a desk or any place?
A. I had it in my hand.
Q. You took the gun out of his hand?
A. No, I did not take the gun out of his hand.  He showed it to me.  He handed it to me.  I had the gun Berardelli carried in my hand.
Q. He took it out of his pocket in his hand?
A. Yes.
Q. And you took it out of his hand?
A. No; he passed it to me.
Q. From his hand into your hand it went?
A. That is where it went, from his hand into my own.  He passed it to me.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I looked at it.
Q. Did you, really?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you a distinct recollection of anything on that revolver?
A. No, sir, not one particularly.  I couldn't tell it if I saw it again.
Q. And that is the only time you saw it?
A. Yes, sir.  I have seen it a number of times in his possession.
Q. But you couldn't tell it again?
A. No, sir.
Q. And you don't know whether this is the revolver?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, in regard to the fence.  In answer to questions of Mr.Williams, you said one of these men was sort of reclining and the other opposite him against the fence near Rice & Hutchins?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you indicated somewhere along there.  May I call your attention to that?  Is this the photograph you used?
A. That is the photograph.  It shows the factory a little different than I could see it.
Q. Which photograph did you use?
A. I should say he stood about in that position, about there.
Q. The one you said was leaning against the fence?
A. Yes, sir. About in there.
Q. Were they close together?
A. Yes.  One stood in this position.  One stood leaning like this, and the other facing.
Q. One leaning against it, and the other close to?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where I have my finger now?
A. I couldn't tell you exactly.
Q. Approximately?
A. Approximately right in there.
MR. McANARNEY. (To the jury.) The witness indicates that the men stood, one leaning against the fence and the other beside him about where the line of the telephone pole comes against the fence, about there.
Q. And this is Rice & Hutchins?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. McANARNEY: The witness indicates that the two men stoodI may say, may I not, right in the immediate neighborhood of that telegraph pole?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. McANARNEY: One leaning against the fence, and the other close to him.  This being Rice & Hutchins' factory.  Do you get that on the back row?  That the two men stood, one leaning against the fence, and the other near that man.  That is all.
MR. WILLIAMS: That is all, You may be excused, sir.

Sacco & Vanzetti Trial Page