Mr. William H. Proctor, Sworn.

Q. (By Mr. Williams) What is your name?
A. William H. Proctor.
Q. Where do you live, sir?
A. Swampscott, Massachusetts.
Q. Are you connected in some way with the State Police?
A. I am.
Q. And in what capacity?
A. I am Captain in the Department of Public Safety, in charge of the Division of State Police.
Q. How long have you occupied that position?
A. I have been a captain,-the name of it changed two years ago. I have been a captain for 16 years, and in the Department for 23.
Q. In the State Police Department for 23 years?
A. Yes.
Q. Your office is now at the State House, I understand?
A. It is.
Q. At some time, Captain, after the South Braintree shooting, did you go to South Braintree and to Brockton?
A. I did.
Q. And did you receive at South Braintree and at Brockton certain articles?
A. I did.
Q. Do you know Mr. Fraher of the Slater & Morrill Company?
A. I do.
Q. Did you receive anything from Mr. Fraher?
A. I did.
Q. What did you receive from him?
***
A. I received four empty shells.
***
Q. Will you look at the envelope which I am now showing you and ask you if you can identify what is found inside (handing envelope to the witness)?
A. I can.
Q. And what are they? I mean, without describing them, I mean from what source did you receive those articles that I have shown you?
A. They were given me by Thomas Fraher at the Slater & Morrill factory at East Braintree, -South Braintree, on April 15, 1920.
Q. Were those the shells which you referred to in my preliminary question?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And have they been in your possession since that time?
A. Until I turned them over to the sheriff in this court.
***
(Mr. Williams shows the shells to counsel for the defense.)
***
(Four empty shells are admitted in evidence and marked "Exhibit 30.")
Q. Captain, what, in general, has been your experience during your term of service with the State Police in reference to firearms and to ammunition for firearms?
A. I have examined the rifling of pistols, and revolvers, all revolvers of 38, and 32 caliber that will shoot a Sand W cartridge, by pushing a bullet through and examining the rifling on the bullet, measuring the width of the lands made, measuring the width of the groove made by the lands in the pistol or revolver.  I have also examined the different makes of automatic pistols that shoot the 380 cartridge, the R2 caliber and 25, and measured the grooves made by the lands in the pistols on the bullets.
Q. Are you familiar with different revolver and pistol cartridges of 32 and 38 caliber type?
A. I have examined all the cartridges that would apply to a case I was working on. I qualified as an expert and testified twenty years ago in the Best case at Salem, and I have been examining bullets and cartridges and pistols and revolvers ever since and have testified in over one hundred capital cases.
Q. Have you made personal examinations of these various kinds of revolvers, pistols and ammunition for the same?
A. I have. More particularly I have made an examination of the bullets that I have passed through the barrels, to obtain the difference in the rifling that is shown on the bullets.
Q. And your examination and experiments by way of pushing the bullet through the barrels has extended over what period of time?
A. Over twenty years.
Q. Now, Captain, will you look at those four empty shells before you which you say were given you by Mr. Fraher and tell the jury what they are? In other words, describe them to the jury.
A. (Witness examines shells.) Well, there are two Peters make. These are shells that the ammunition is ammunition adapted to automatic pistols, 32 caliber. There are two Peters and one U. M. C., and one W. R. A., Winchester.
Q. W. R. A., Winchester?
A. Yes.
Q. Two Peters, one U. M. C. What is "U.M.C."?
A. That is the Remington, Union Metallic Cartridge Company.
Q. Now, Captain, is there any way that you could mark these, with the assent of the Court, so that we can identify the different marks later, in referring to them?
A. It is marked on the
Q. It is marked on them?
A. Right on the bottom of the cartridge, the shell.
Q. I see, "W. R. A., Peters, and U. M. C." I see. Are they all 32 caliber?
A. They are.
***
Q. Now, Captain, did you receive any articles purporting to have been connected with this shooting at the Brockton police station?
A. I did.
Q. And where and in what manner did you receive them?
A. I received them upstairs in the Brockton police station. John Scott,-State Officer Scott was present, and some Boston,-Brockton police officer handed them to him and he to me.
Q. And what were they?
A. The automatic pistol in question, and some cartridges, automatic cartridges, 32-caliber.
Q. Do you remember how many of the automatic cartridges there were?
A. 32.
Q. What kind of automatic pistol was it?
A. It was this pistol (indicating).
Q. A Colt automatic?
A. A Colt automatic.
Q. Has that been in your possession since then?
A. Until I turned it over to the sheriff here.
***
Q. Will you look at this envelope of cartridges and see if you can identify those (handing envelope to the witness)?
A. (Witness examines envelope.) That is the same envelope and it looks like the same amount of cartridges. I can tell by counting them.
Q. Were they in your possession until delivered to the sheriff?
A. They were.
Q. Have you examined those cartridges, Captain?
A. I have looked them over.
Q. And are those cartridges of different makes?
A. They are.
Q. Now, will you tell the jury of what makes those cartridges are and how many of each make are contained in the envelope?
A. There are four different makes. There is a Peters, a Remington,-U.M.C., and there is a Winchester, say W.R.A.
Q. Instead of just giving the initials will you give the full names of the makes of those cartridges? Go a little slower.
A. On the 16, Peters Cartridge Company; 3 Remington U.M.C. Cartridge Company; 7 United
States Cartridge Company and 6 Winchester Cartridge Company, made by Winchester Arms Company, Repeating Arms Company, the full name.
MR. WILLIAMS. I offer these.
(32 cartridges are admitted in evidence and marked "Exhibit 31.")
***
Q. What caliber are those, did you tell us?
A. 32.
Q. Now, did you receive a revolver at any time?
A. I did.
Q. When?
A. At the same time.
Q. That is this revolver which is Exhibit 27. That is right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you receive in connection with that revolver any revolver cartridges, lead cartridges?
A. I did.
Q. Were they in the revolver or separate?
A. Separate.
Q. Were you handed those at the same time those other things were given you?
A. I was.
Q. I show you these cartridges and ask you if you can identify them (handing cartridges to the witness)?
A. (Witness examines cartridges.) I can identify the envelope, and the cartridges look just about the same.
Q. Were they in your possession until you turned them over to the sheriff?
A. They were.
(Mr. Williams shows cartridges to counsel for the defense.)
***
MR. WILLIAMS. This exhibit becomes Exhibit 32, five revolver cartridges. (Five revolver cartridges admitted in evidence and marked "Exhibit 32.")
Q. Will you look at those cartridges, Captain, and describe them to the jury? Go slow, if you will, in any of these descriptions.
 (Mr. Williams hands the witness a magnifying class, who examines cartridges through same.)
THE WITNESS. There are two. Those are S. & W. cartridges, 38 calibre. Two of them are made by the Union Metallic Cartridge Company,-Remington Union Metallic Cartridge Company. The other three are made by the United States Cartridge Company.
Q. What kinds of bullets are in those cartridges?
A. Soft lead bullets.
Q. What caliber are the cartridges?
A. 38.
Q. What kind of bullets are in this lot of cartridges marked "Exhibit 31"?
A. They are full metal cartridges.
Q. And how are the full metal patch bullets different from the lead bullets?
A. Well, there is a patch made by the combination of copper and zinc that is put right over the lead.
Q. And in the lead bullets there is no patch over them. Is that the distinction that you make?
A. Yes. There is a metal patch put over it.  It is a composition.  I do not just know technically what the composition is, but it makes a metal patch over it.
Q. Captain, I now show you Exhibits 19, 20, 21, 24 and 25, which are bullets testified to by physicians as being found in the body or bodies of the victims of this shooting. Will you look at bullet No.1 first and tell the jury what kind of a bullet that is, the make, if you can tell it, and any further description which occurs to you?

Bullet One
A. That is a full-
Q. Let me ask you first, Captain, you have examined at the request of the District Attorney those bullets before going on the stand, have you not?
A. I have.
Q. And have examined them, yes.
A. That (indicating) is a full metal patch bullet, 32 caliber, adapted to auto cartridges. That is, cartridges fired in an auto pistol.
Q. When you say "auto" what do you mean?
A. Automatic. And my opinion is that it is Winchester make.
Q. Winchester make?
A. Yes.
Q. That is No.1, is it?
A. Yes.
***
Q. If you have any memorandum about your examination and investigation of these bullets, you may refer to it, Captain, to save time. Now, can you tell by looking at it through what make and type of gun that bullet has been fired?
A. I can.
Q. Will you tell the jury through what make and type of gun, in your opinion that bullet has been fired?
A. A Savage.
Q. Well, that is the make. What type?
A. That is the make. Automatic pistol, 32 calibre.
Q. Now, what is the basis for your opinion in that respect?
A. By measuring the width of the grooves on the bullet caused by the lands in the pistol.
Q. Now, what are the "lands" in the pistol?
A. The "lands" are the raised-up places in the pistol that have grooves between them, and when a bullet is pushed in the pistol, when it goes through the pistol, it gives it a twist, holds the bullet and it is given a twist coming out of the barrel.
Q. The lands are the raised-up-
A. Places in the barrel.
Q. Can you open up that pistol so that I can allow the jury to look through it and see just what you mean by referring to the raised portions of the barrel? (Witness opens up pistol.) Those raised up portions and the other lowered portions of the barrel are what is commonly referred to as the rifling?
A. Yes.
Q. And that rifling, with the twist in it, gives what sort of motion to the bullet as it is fired?
A. Well, I can tell better with what result it makes on the bullet.
Q. I am not asking you that, but I mean the bullet going through the air, what happens to it by reason of the rifling and the twist in the rifling on the bullet?
A. I think the idea is to make it go straighter. It gives it a twist before coming out of the gun.
***
(Mr. WiIIiams passes pistol barrel to jurors, who examine it with a magnifying glass.)
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. (To the Foreman) May I assist you (passing paper behind barrel)?
THE FOREMAN. No, it doesn't help.
MR. WILLIAMS. (To the jury) I wish to call your attention, gentlemen, in looking through it, not only to the raised and lowered portions, but to the twist of the rifle.
Q. You say those raised portions we see in the barrel are the lands?
A. Yes.
Q. And what do those lands do to a bullet when it is pushed or fired through the barrel?
A. The lands make a groove on the bullet. It reverses where the groove is in the pistol. It makes,-it is just the reverse in the pistol than it would be on the bullet.
Q. Now, on a Savage what is the width of the lands?
A. It makes a groove on the bullet .035 of an inch.
Q. It makes a groove on the bullet .035 of an inch, and what sort of a twist does a Savage automatic pistol give to the bullet?
A. Right-hand. In standing the bullet up, it slants to the right.
Q. Now, have you measured the width of the groove on No.1 bullet?
A. I have.
Q. What is the width of the groove made by the lands of the barrel?
A. .035 of an inch.
Q. And in which direction is the twist on the bullet?
A. Right hand.
Q. That is, as you look at the bullet from the base to the nose, the grooves-
A. Slant to the right.
Q. Slant to the right. Is there any other gun which makes a .035 groove on a bullet and a twist to the right?
A. There is not.
Q. How certain are you as to your opinion that No.1 bullet was fired through or from a Savage automatic pistol?
A. I have measured the grooves made on bullets of all the makes that I can learn of, and I cannot find two just alike, the width of the grooves made by the lands in the pistol, and I have measured this and made it 35. I haven't got any other such measurement for any other pistol.
Q. How certain can you be then of your opinion that that bullet was fired from a Savage automatic 32?
A. I can be as certain of that as I can of anything.

Bullet Two
Q. Now, while the jury are looking at that, will you look at No.2 bullet and tell us if you have an opinion as to the make and type of weapon from which that bullet was fired?
A. I have.
Q. And what is your opinion?
A. My opinion is it is a V.M.C. make, and it was fired by a Savage pistol.
Q. And in your opinion it was fired from a Savage pistol is based on the same grounds you have just described in regard to bullet No.1?
A. Yes, sir.
***
Q. Have you measured the grooves made by the lands of the bullet on No.2?
A. I have.
Q. And have you noticed the twist?
A. I have.
Q. What is the width of the grooves made on No.2?
A. .035.
Q. Of what nature is the twist on the bullet?
A. Right,-right hand.

Bullet Four
Q. Will you look at bullet No.4 and tell us if you have an opinion as to the type and make of weapon from which that bullet was fired?
A. I have.
Q. What is your opinion?
A. My opinion is it is a Winchester make and was fired from-this No.4 fired from a Savage.
Q. That is a bullet which is of Winchester make?
A. And fired from a Savage.
Q. Savage what?
A. Automatic pistol, 32 calibre.
Q. Based on the same reasons you have given us in regard to the other two bullets?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you measured the groove caused by the lands on that particular bullet?
A. I have.
Q. What is the measurement?
A. .035 of an inch.
Q. And have you noticed the direction of the twist as shown on the bullet?
A. Right-hand.
***

Bullet Five
Q. And now, will you examine bullet No.5, Captain, and tell us if you have an opinion as to the make and type of weapon from which that weapon was fired?
A. I have.
Q. What is it?
A. I think a Peters bullet and fired from a Savage automatic pistol, 32 calibre, Peters make.
Q. Your opinion as to the kind of weapon is based on the same reasons you have given us before?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you measure the width of the grooves caused by the lands?
A. I did.
Q. What are the measurements?
A. .035 of an inch.
Q. What is the twist, if any?
A. Right-hand.
***
Bullet Six
Q. Will you examine bullet No. 6,-which is Exhibit 24, gentlemen, -and tell us if you have an opinion as to the make and type of weapon from which that bullet was fired?
A. I have.
Q. What is it?
A. U.M.C. make and fired by a Savage automatic pistol, 32 calibre.
Q. Based on the same reasons you have heretofore given?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the width of the grooves in that bullet?
A. .035 of an inch.
Q. And the twist?
A. Right-hand.
***
Bullet Three
Q. Now, I call your attention, Captain, to Bullet No.3, and ask you if you will look at it and tell us if you have an opinion as to the make and type of weapon from which that weapon was fired? A. I have.
Q. And what is your opinion?
A. That it is a Winchester make, W.R.A., and that it was fired by a Colt automatic revolver, 32 caliber or pistol, I mean.
Q. Automatic pistol, 32.
A. Colt automatic, 32 caliber.
Q. What is the basis for your opinion?
A. In the first place this bullet has got a left-hand twist instead of a right. In the second place, the
grooves made by the pistol while passing through on this bullet are .060 of an inch.
Q. .060?
A. Yes.
Q. And what does that signify to you?
A. It signifies to me it was fired by a Colt automatic pistol, 32 caliber.
Q. Do you know of any other automatic pistol that gives a right hand twist to the bullet?
A. All give a right-hand twist but the one, all I have ever seen.
Q. I mean left-hand twist, pardon me.
A. Not any give left-hand.
Q. This is left-hand twist?
A. Yes.
Q. It was my slip, then. Do you know of any other automatic pistol that gives a groove of the width of .060 of an inch?
A. I do not.
MR. WILLIAMS. (To the jury) I show you bullet No.3, gentlemen, and ask you to note the left-hand slant to those grooves, and possibly you can do it better with…
Q. What kind of bullets do you say that was?
A. W. R. A.
Q. What does that mean?
A. That means Winchester Repeating Arms Company.
Q. How do you ascertain that is a W. R. A. bullet?
A. I formed my opinion and I got my conclusion from comparing that bullet with all makes of bullets and measuring the length of them and making a comparison, weighing them, but in that particular bullet it is the "W" which is above the cannon-lure, one of the ends of the grooves that distinguishes the Winchester bullet. They put "W" on their bullets.
***
(The bullet is examined by the jury.)
 

Q. Captain, did you participate in some experiments with the Colt automatic which is in evidence, at Lowell on Saturday where there were present Captain van Amberg, representing the District Attorney, and also Mr. Burns representing the defense?
A. I did.
Q. Mr. Burns is the gentleman seated beside Mr. McAnarney?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the character of the experiments there carried on by you three gentlemen?
A. We fired the automatic pistol in the case into sawdust, and we recovered the bullets themselves, that sprung from the pistol. I got six empty shells that I picked up that came from the pistol.
Q. How many-
A. Then van Amberg fired six and Mr. Burns fired eight.
Q. And did you recover the shells from the six cartridges which you and Captain van Amberg fired?
A. I did.
Q. Have you them there?
A. I have.
***
Q. *** What make of cartridges did you and Captain van Amberg fire?
A. There were three W. R. A. and three Peters.
Q. When you say "W. R. A." do you mean Winchester Repeating Arms?
A. Winchester.
Q. What kind of a bullet would you say bullet No.3 was?
A. W. R. A., Winchester Repeating Arms Company.
***
Q. Captain Proctor, have you an opinion as to whether bullets Nos. 1, 2, 5 and 6 were fired from the same weapon?
A. I have not.
***
Q. Have you an opinion as to whether bullet 3 was fired from the Colt Automatic which is in evidence?
A. I have.
Q. And what is your opinion?
A. My opinion is that it is consistent with being fired by that pistol.
Q. Is there anything different in the appearance of the other five bullets-
A. Yes.
Q. Just a minute, I had not completed. -the other five bullets to which I have just referred, which would indicate to you that they were fired from more than one weapon?
A. There is not.
Q. Are the appearance of those bullets consistent with being fired with the same weapon?
A. As far as I can see.
Q. Captain, did you understand my question when I asked you if you had an opinion as to whether the five bullets which you say were fired from an automatic type of pistol were fired from the same gun?
A. I would not say positively.
Q. Well, have you an opinion?
A. I have.
Q. Well, that is what I asked you before. I thought possibly you didn't understand. What is your opinion as to the gun from which those four were fired?
A. My opinion is, all five were fired from the same pistol.
Q. What is the basis of your opinion?
A. By looking the marks over on the bullets that were caused by the rifling of the gun. It didn't seem to cut a clear groove; they seemed to jump the lands, and seemed to make a different mark than the lands would make.
Q. Will you select two bullets, I don't care which, so that I can show the jury what you mean by that mark?
 (The witness picks out two bullets.)
Q. You referred to what, Captain? What is the irregularity of the different bullets that you refer to?
A. There is marks there other than what it would make if it stayed in the lands all the time. It would make six cuts there. You see there are a whole lot of cuts there.
Q. Do you find that same peculiarity in all those?
A. I do. Some don't go so far, but there is a similarity.
Q. How many lands are there to a Savage automatic?
A. Six.
Q. And by the "lands" again you mean the raised-the ridges in the barrel?
A. Yes.
Q. So, I take it, it must necessarily be that there are six grooves in the bullet?
A. Yes.
Q. Caused by those lands?
A. Yes.
Q. And you find additional marks other than those six grooves?
A.Yes, I do.
***
MR. WILLIAMS. I ask you to notice the marks on those two bullets.
(Mr. Williams shows the bullets to the jury.)
Q. While the jury are examining those bullets,-Have you got the six bullets which were fired by you and Captain van Amberg at Lowell?
A. I have not.
Q. Who has those?
A. Van Amberg has three.
Q. All right. I will introduce them when he is called. Have you any of them?
A. I have three.
Q. Well, I will take the three that you have.
(The witness produces the bullets.)
Q. (Continued) Are those the three that were fired by you?
A. He fired the gun, but I stood right there and picked them up.
Q. These are three what, what kind of bullets?
A. Winchester.
***
(The three bullets are placed in an envelope and marked Exhibit 35)
Q. You said there were six lands on a Savage automatic?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many lands on a Colt?
A. Six.
MR. WILLIAMS. You may inquire.

Cross-Examination

Q. (By Mr. McAnarney) Let's see, you have been testifying, you say, for a number of years in these cases, firearms cases?
A. I have.
Q. And you have had quite a lot to do with the Colt revolver?
A. Not much.
Q. How much?
A. Well, what I have had to do is pushing bullets through and measuring the grooves on the bullets.
Q. How long have you been making observations and tests on Colt revolvers?
A. Oh, I commenced 20 years ago, pushing bullets through.
Q. And you have been pushing them through ever since, more or less?
A. More or less.
Q. And testifying in cases with reference to the results?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I understand your evidence, if I followed you, you said that the Colts had a left twist? A. It has.
Q. And by that, you mean that the twist is from left to right?
A. I mean by that-.
Q. Well, do you mean from left to right in the barrel?
A. I mean by that that the grooves on the bullet has a left slant. You hold the bullet
up square, and on the Colt the groove will have a left slant on the bullet.
Q. That is, from-
A. From the base to the top.
Q. From the base to the top, looking at a photograph, the slant would be from the left?
A. Looking at the bullets. I don't know about a photograph.
Q. All right. Looking at the bullet, as you would look at it, and taking it from the base to the apex of the bullet, the slant would be to the left?
A. Yes.
Q. And I understand you say that is the only weapon-
A. The only weapon to my knowledge. As far as my examination of bullets goes, that is the only gun that has the left twist.
Q. Have you made effort to find whether that opinion of yours is well founded?
A. Well, I have pushed bullets-
Q. Have you? Yes or No?
A. I have.
Q. When did you make that investigation?
A. Well, I have the last time was about a week ago.
Q. And you made what you thought was a thorough search to ascertain-
A. I did.
Q. -whether there was any other automatic that had a left twist?
A. I did.
Q. And you did not find any?
A. I did not.
Q. Are you familiar with the Bayard pistol?
A. I am.
Q. That is a left twist, isn't it?
A. It is not.
Q. The Bayard pistol is not a left twist?
A. I don't think so.
Q. You said it was not. Now-
A. I am familiar with the Bayard pistol, .25 caliber,
Q. Pardon me just one minute. You said it was not, and your next answer was "I don't think so." A. If you will let me explain just a moment, I will tell you.
Q. Just a minute, sir. I will repeat the question, and I will take your answer. Has the Bayard pistol a left twist or a right twist? Will you answer that Yes or No?
***
A. No.
Q. No what?
A. Not any 32 caliber.
Q. What is the twist of a 32 Bayard?
A. 32 what?
Q. 32 Bayard.
A. I never saw a 32 Bayard. 25 is the only one I am familiar with. You asked me if I am familiar with the Bayard. I am with the 25 caliber.
Q. What is the twist of a 32 Bayard pistol?
A. I didn't say there was a 32 Bayard.
Q. Do you say there is not?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. That there is not a 32 Bayard?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Well, you made an examination to find out, didn't you?
A. I have.
Q. To the best of your knowledge and belief, there is no such thing as a 32 Bayard?
A. Yes.
Q. So, whether it is a right or left twist you don't know?
A. Not of a 32. I never found one.
Q. You examined a 35, did you?
A. 25.
Q. 25 Bayard?
A. Yes.
Q. You say that was what twist?
A. A right.
Q. A right twist?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you examine that?
***
A. About a week ago.
Q. And passing from that just a minute, you say that there are in one of the exhibits, where there was several Savage-several bullets, you say three from a Savage automatic and one from a Colt you have in mind the group of bullets I am talking about?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you say those came from a Savage gun. Why do you say that?
A. On account of the width of the grooves made by the lands in the pistol.
Q. What do you say the width of the grooves is?
A. 35/1000.
Q. What instrument did you take to make that measurement?
A. I have a micrometer and frame to measure with, the same one I have used to measure bullets for twenty years.
Q. So you get 35/1000 as the measurement of a Savage automatic?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you familiar with the Steyer gun?
A. No.
Q. Then you don't know what the measurement of that is?
A. No.
Q. There have been a lot of those in circulation since the war, since the boys came back?
A. Never saw it.
Q. You never saw one?
A. Never heard of it, and never saw one.
Q. Are you familiar with the Stauer?
A. No, sir, never heard of it.
Q. So that the measurements of the lands and grooves you don't know?
A. Never heard of it.
Q. Now, taking- Now, does this gun appear to be used to any great extent, from your observation of it?
(Mr. McAnarney hands a pistol to the witness.)
A. I looked through the muzzle, up to Lowell, and there were some pits.
Q. Whatever observation you have made, from your observation, what is your opinion, whether this is a gun that has been used much or not?
A. I couldn't say. It might have got those pits by being fired only once and then laid away.  I couldn't form any opinion on that.
Q. Will you take it apart, please?
(The witness attempts to take the pistol apart.)
THE COURT. Aren't you taking up too much time? Can't you let somebody else do it?
THE WITNESS. I can't see the mark on it.
Q. Are you familiar with the Colt automatic?
A. I carry one all the time in my pocket. I don't take them apart very often. I know how.
Q. You don't take them apart very often?
A. No, I don't.
Q. When did you last make an examination of a Colt revolver?
A. I looked through this one at Lowell. Do you mean, to take it apart?
Q. When did you ever take it apart?
A. Oh, a month ago, I guess, -two months ago.
Q. Have you ever taken half a dozen Colt revolvers apart?
A. I don't think so, not different ones.
(The pistol having been taken apart, it is returned to the witness.)
Q. Now, you look at that gun, and tell us whether you think it has been used much or not.
A. I couldn't tell you whether it has been used much or not. It has been cleaned out, brushed out, and fired. There is a few pits in close to the lands, but there was when I looked through it at Lowell.
Q. From your experience as a gun expert, are you able to give this jury any opinion as to the extent to which that gun has been used?
A. I cannot.
***
Q. Have you in mind what the maximum pressure pounds per square inch on a Colt automatic 32 is?
A. I don't know anything about it.
Q. You don't know anything about it? Your answer was you don't know anything about it?
A. The pressure on it?
Q. Yes.
A. I don't know anything along that line. My experience has all been in finding bullets and finding the right bullet to measure and examine.
Q. You don't know anything about the maximum pressure?
A. I don't know anything about that line at all.
Q. What is the penetration power-
A. I don't know anything about that.
Q. What is the composition of the core?
A. I don't know anything about the component parts of either ammunition or the revolver or pistol.
Q. Well, as an expert during these 32 years, haven't you got inside of the revolver at some time? A. I am only an expert on what is necessary for me to learn, and that is what I have learned.
Q. Then, it has not been necessary about the insides of the guns much, has it?
A. Only by pushing a bullet through and examining what impression was made on the bullets.
Q. That is where you limit yourself?
A. I do,-the kind of bullets, and by comparison to tell what gun shot them.
(Mr. McAnarney hands a bullet to the witness.)
Q. Will you glance at that? Have you any idea what that bullet is? I am showing you a bullet.
A. I can't tell one bullet from another, unless I have a proper chance to compare them and measure them, and have lots of time on it. I have had a year to compare these five or six, and that is the conclusion I reached.
Q. I don't know as I want all that. I asked you a simple question. Your answer is No?
A. Not without making a proper examination, and that would take some time.
Q. Would you look at it, please, just glance at it? Look at it. Are you able to form any opinion as to what kind of a bullet that is?
A. I wouldn't give any opinion without having proper time to examine it and compare it.
Q. Pardon me. Your answer is No?
A. No.
Q. I want to call your attention to the lands and grooves on that bullet. You can tell us what they are, whether they are left or right, can't you?
A. They are left.
Q. It looks like a 32, don't it? You may compare it with some of the 32s you have with you.
A. It looks like one, yes.
Q. Now, you have before you a bullet with a left groove, and which appears to be a 32, don't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, that is the first left groove 32 bullet you ever saw outside of a Colt, isn't it? Strike out that question. That is the first left 32 bullet that you have seen, isn't it, other than such as came out of a Colt revolver?
MR. KATZMANN. One moment.
THE COURT. He hasn't said that yet. You better ask him.
Q. Isn't that the fact, that that is the first left groove 32 bullet you have seen except such as came out of a Colt revolver, Colt pistol?
THE COURT. He hasn't said that that did not come out of a Colt revolver.
MR. McANARNEY. That was to be my next question.
Q. Did that come out of a 32 Colt?
THE COURT. You may answer.
A. I couldn't tell just looking at it. I would have to make an examination. The same answer stands as to the other bullet. I couldn't tell you off-hand whether it did or not.
Q. Would you say whether or not that came out of a Colt revolver?
A. My opinion is, it came out of a Colt, yes.
Q. You know of no other 32 left groove bullet, do you?
A. I do not.
***
Q. You have a Colt bullet there, a bullet that came out of a Colt? Kindly get one of those.
*** Now, compare the lands and grooves on those two bullets, and give us your best judgment as to whether they were both fired from a Colt.
A. I couldn't tell you off-hand. I have got to take time to make an examination before I can give you an opinion on anything of that kind. I may have to go further, and take a picture to match them up.
Q. One moment. Your answer is No.
MR. KATZMANN. One moment. I submit that is not the answer.
Q. Captain, can you give us a better opinion now from your examination,-whether or not you have any opinion as to whether that bullet came from a 32 colt? Now, will you kindly answer that question? Have you any opinion as to whether or not that bullet came from a 32 Colt?
A. I couldn't give you an opinion.
Q. *** Captain, I show you a bullet. Will you kindly look at it (handing bullet to the witness)?
A. (Witness examines bullet.)
Q. Are you able from the lands and grooves and general make-up of the bullet, to determine what kind of a revolver or pistol it came through?
A. Not with this kind of an examination, I cannot.
Q. Are you able to determine now, looking at it, what caliber bullet that is?
A. I am not.
Q. Can't you, looking at that bullet,-haven't you any instrument that in any way you can give us your opinion from your 32 years experience what caliber bullet that is?
A. Some of them are very near alike. I could not tell you, no, sir. Not on this examination.
Q. What is that nearest like, in your opinion?
A. I wouldn't give you any opinion on it until I had a chance to examine it thoroughly.
Q. Does it look like a 38 shell or bullet?
A. No.
Q. Does it look like a 35 bullet?
A. Possibly.
Q. Does it look like a 32?
A. Possibly.
Q. What is the next under 32?
A. The next I know of is 25.
Q. You will agree with me it is not a 25, won't you?
A. I won't agree to anything until I make a proper examination.
Q. I see. So whether it is a 25 or 35 or 32 bullet, you don't know?
A. I won't give you an opinion until I have proper chance to examine it.
Q. How do the lands and grooves on that bullet compare with the lands and grooves on a Savage Colt automatic 32?
A. (Witness examined bullet.) That has got a right-hand twist.
Q. How do they compare in the bullet diameter?
A. I couldn't tell you within a thousandth or perhaps two-thousandths or three-thousandths of an inch under this kind of an examination.
Q. I see. What was the reason you gave when you said that all of these bullets which you enumerated came from the 32 Savage automatic? What was the reason you gave as to how you knew that?
A. The reason I gave was the measurement of the groove made by the lands in the pistol, -the measurement.
Q. Whether the lands and grooves on this bullet correspond to those, without a proper examination you could not say?
A. I cannot.
***
(The bullet is marked "Exhibit 14 for identification.")
***
Q. By the lands and grooves you determine it came from a Savage automatic?
A. By the lands,-the grooves on the bullet made by the lands in the pistol, the barrel of the pistol.
Q. Wasn't there something else that enabled you to say it came from this gun, or was- there?
A. Talking about a Savage?
Q. Yes. You said something more than that. Didn't you say something about that there was,-where the bullet entered the barrel that there was some trouble you thought you noticed? Didn't you notice something else about those Savage bullets or bullets you say came from a Savage
gun?
A. Well, that wasn't any reason for saying it came from a Savage.
Q. What was there?
A. The other marks. I said there were other marks besides the marks made by the lands where it jumped the rifling of the pistol.
Q. What causes that?
A. I am not up on that line, you know. I am not a gun maker or an ammunition maker. I do not do any test for that purpose, so I plead ignorance to the reason what made it.
Q. Then it may be a natural condition on any bullet going through a Savage, may it not?
A. For aught I know.
Q. Then for aught you know, it is the normal condition of any bullet going through any Savage automatic?
A. I wouldn't say so, sir.
Q. I thought you said for aught you knew it was. What will you say?
A. I never made any tests on firearms.
***
Q. The fact is, the significance of any irregularity or any appearance of those bullets which you say came through the Savage gun, they mean nothing to you?
A. I do not know the cause of them.
***
Q. You do not know the cause, do you?
A. I know
Q. Will you answer that question?  Haven't you just said you did not know the cause?
A. The cause of what?
Q. What you are talking about?
A. I know that those marks are made by jumping the rifling, but I do not know what causes them to jump the rifling.
Q. True. Whether the jumping of the rifling is a normal condition in a Savage automatic you do not know, do you?
A. That is right.
Q. Very well. Then, I say that for all you know the appearances of those bullets, which you say came from a Savage automatic, have the normal appearances of any bullets that come from any Savage automatic. That is right, isn't it?
A. For all I know, yes.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Then your knowledge is our knowledge now.

Redirect Examination

Q. (By Mr. Williams) Captain, in reply to Mr. McAnarney's questions you said you are unable to reach a conclusion in regard to one or both of those bullets he showed you without an examination. Now, what examination did you refer to, or did you mean?
A. I don't get your question.
Q. Strike it out, please. You stated, as I understood you, in reply to Mr. McAnarney, that you want some time to examine the bullets which he submitted to you?
A. Yes.
Q. Before you would give an opinion as to the kind of bullet or from what gun it had been fired? A. Yes.
Q. Did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you tell the jury what kind of an examination you would want or wish to make before giving your opinion as to those bullets?
A. I would want a chance to measure them and study them; take some little time. I want to get the exact measurements of the grooves, of the grooves on the bullet to compare them with other bullets that are pushed through automatic pistols.
Q. And are you able to make such examination as you stand here on the witness stand?
A. I am not.
Q. What do you mean by pushing a bullet through a gun?
A. I mean pushing it through, through the barrel of the gun.
Q. And what method do you take?
A. Entering it at the breech and pushing it through to the muzzle, putting a bullet into the breech, put pressure on, enough to take it through and out the muzzle.
Q. Does that give the same marks as would be given if a bullet was fired through a gun?
A. It does, to the best of my knowledge.
Q. When you say "pushed through" do you mean pushed through by hand?
A. No. Only you have to start it with a little wooden mallet, or something, but after it gets going it goes easily.
Q. No mechanical contrivance is necessary?
A. No.
Q. You push it through by hand in some form?
A. Yes.

Re-Cross-Examination

Q. (By Mr. Jeremiah McAnarney) Captain, if you had a micrometer here, could you give us some information or some idea?
A. I could not make a proper examination of bullets here. I have got to have more time and I have got to have my own instruments.
Q. My attention has been called--will you kindly look at 1, 3 and 4 bullets,-l, 3 and 4?
A. (Witness does so.)
Q. Are those three bullets the same bullet or the same make of bullet?
A. (Witness produces memorandum from pocket.) That is my opinion.
Q. You feel quite sure about that, Captain?
A. I do.
Q. I show you a photograph. Will you kindly look at it (handing photograph to witness)?
A. (Witness examines photograph.)
***
Q. Now, you may glance at those, Captain; and I call to your attention, take the different series, and may I say to you, unless I am stopped by objections, that these purport to represent two, four, six different photographs of the same bullet turned in six different positions, and you will notice them and you see from your experience, if you kindly look at them so you understand them before I put the next question.
A. (Witness does so.)
Q. You have examined them?
A. Yes.
***
Q. I am calling attention to photograph of bullet No.1 on defendant's for identification 15, and I call your attention to the one marked 3 and the one marked 4, and ask you if you will examine those three, 1, 3, and 4, and give us your opinion if they are the same in appearance to you, the same kind of bullet.
***
A. I am not by looking at them there if they are the same kind of bullets.
***
Q. Now, look at the knurl of 1, 3 and 4 in this, the second. I call your attention to the knurl in 1, 3 and 4 on this third picture. I call your attention to the knurl on 1, 3 and 4 in this fourth view, noticing particularly the knurl on No.3. I call your attention to the knurl on 1, 3 and 4, again calling particular attention to the knurl on No.3. And I call your attention to the knurl on 1, 3 and 4, the last one of this group, again directing your attention to the knurl on 3. Are you able to form an opinion as to whether those three bullets are the same kind of bullets or not?
A. From that picture I could not form an opinion.
Q. You have no idea? Is that right? Now kindly-
A. I might have an idea but I wouldn't form an opinion, not to express it.
Q. Perhaps your idea might help out. What is your idea?
A. My idea is that bullet No.3 is fired by a Colt and those others are fired by some other kind of firearm.
Q. That wasn't my question. Did you understand that for one minute as the question I asked you? I was asking you, Captain, whether or not they were the same kind of bullet and shell?
A. I couldn't tell by looking.
Q. The same kind of cartridge?
A. I couldn't tell by that picture.
Q. Well, I will come back to what is the true situation, the bullet, the same kind of bullet.  Is there anything on there that instructs you? Will you tell me, please?
A. I can't tell anything by that picture, with the exception that one of those bullets was fired by a different gun than the other five.
Q. How do you know that by the picture?
A. I know by the width of the groove on the bullet and the slant of it.
Q. You see No.3 is a left groove, don't you?
A. Yes, but it does not look so good on there as it does on the bullet itself.
Q. I did not ask you that, Captain,-kindly answer the question I have put to you. You see on this photograph that No.3 is a left groove, don't you?
A. Slightly.
Q. Well, it is what you call a left groove, isn't it?
A. Some.
Q. Is it what you call a left groove? Will you kindly answer that question?
A. (Witness examines photograph.) Well, the way the bullet sets there it has a left slant. It might be cocked some way to make that left slant, so I won't answer any pictures, from the picture what bullets they are.
Q. Have I asked you that question, Captain?
A. Without seeing the bullets themselves.
Q. Have I asked you that question, Captain?
A. I don't know as you have.
Q. Well, I would like to have you answer the questions I put to you.
A. All right, let them come.
Q. They have been coming. Now, isn't that the photograph of what you call a left twist bullet, or are you unable to say? That will let you out; if you are unable to say, please say so.
A. I do not know what that is a photograph of.  I did not see them set up, and I do not know anything about them.
Q. Don't you know that is a left twist bullet?
A. No, I do not.
Q. What did you mean a minute ago when you said you knew it came out of a Colt revolver because it was a left twist?
A. That is the way it looked to me.
Q. Then you know it is a left twist, and from that knowledge, as you see it there, you said it came from a Colt revolver, didn't you?
***
THE COURT. Did he say the picture or did he say the bullet itself? Look that up and see.
(The witness' answer is read as follows: "A. My idea is bullet No. 3 is fired by a Colt and those others are fired by some other kind of firearm.")
Q. That is your answer, isn't it?
A. Bullet No.3, yes.
Q. Yes. And you say that because of the left groove, don't you?
A. I don't say because of the left groove on that picture. I say the left groove on the bullet.
Q. Pardon me. You weren't looking at the bullet when you were answering me, were you?
A. I had the bullet in mind.
Q. I wasn't showing you the bullet, was I?
A. You were not.
Q. Were you answering me, Captain, from the bullet or photograph I was showing you?
A. From the photograph.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. That is all.
THE WITNESS. Having it in mind.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. That is all, sir.

Redirect Examination

Q. (By Mr. Williams) Captain, do you know how a certain slant to a line would appear in a photograph?
A. I do not.
Q. Suppose a line in an object slanted to the right, do you know how that same line would appear in a photograph taken of it?
A. *** I do.
Q. How would it appear?
A. If the slant was to the line onto the bullet, it would be the slant to the left on the photograph, the picture.
Q. Now, if a similar line was shown in a mirror, how would the image appear in the mirror?
***
A. I don't know.
***
THE COURT. I think that is all, Captain.