DR. KAUFFMANN: With the agreement of the Tribunal, I now call the witness
Hoess.
[The witness Hoess took the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: Stand up. Will you state your name?
RUDOLF FRANZ FERDINAND HOESS (Witness): Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Hoess.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: "I swear by God,the
Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth,and will withhold
and add nothing.
[The witness repeated the oath in German.]
THE PRESIDENT: Will you sit down?
DR. KAUFFMANN: Witness, your statements will have far-reaching significance.
You are perhaps the only one who can throw some light upon certain hidden
aspects, and who can tell which people gave the orders for the destruction
of European Jewry, and can further state how this order was carried out
and to what degree the execution was kept a secret.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, will you kindly put questions to the
witness.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes.
[Turning to the witness.] From 1940 to 1943, you were the Commander
of the camp at Auschwitz. Is that true?
HOESS: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: And during that time, hundreds of thousands of human
beings were sent to their death there. Is that correct?
HOESS: Yes.
DR. KAUTFFMANN: Is it true that you, yourself, have made no exact notes
regarding the figures of the number of those victims because you were forbidden
to make them?
HOESS: Yes, that is correct.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Is it furthermore correct that exclusively one man by
the name of Eichmann had notes about this, the man who had the task of
organizing and assembling these people?
HOESS: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Is it furthermore true that Eichmann stated to you that
in Auschwitz a total sum of more than 2 million Jews had been destroyed?
HOESS: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Men, women, and children?
HOESS: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: You were a participant in the World War?
HOESS: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: And then in 1922, you entered the Party?
HOESS: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Were you a member of the SS?
HOESS: Since 1934.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Is it true that you, in the year 1924, were sentenced
to a lengthy term of hard labor because you participated in a so-called
political murder?
HOESS: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: And then at the end of 1934, you went to the concentration
camp of Dachau?
HOESS: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: What task did you receive?
HOESS: At first, I was the leader of a block of prisoners and then
I became clerk and finally, the administrator of the property of prisoners.
DR. KAUFFMANN: And how long did you stay there?
HOESS: Until 1938.
DR. KAUFFMANN: What job did you have from 1938 on and where were you
then?
HOESS: In 1938 I went to the concentration camp at Sachsenhausen where,
to begin with, I was adjutant to the commander and later on I became the
head of the protective custody camp.
DR. KAUFFMANN: When were you commander at Auschwitz?
HOESS: I was commander at Auschwitz from May 1940 until December 1943.
DR. KAUFFMANN: What was the highest number of human beings, prisoners,
ever held at one time at Auschwitz?
HOESS: The highest number of internees held at one time at Auschwitz,
was about 140,000 men and women.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Is it true that in 1941 you were ordered to Berlin to
see Himmler? Please state briefly what was discussed.
HOESS: Yes. In the summer of 1941 1 was summoned to Berlin to Reichsfáhrer
SS Himmler to receive personal orders. He told me something to the effect--I
do not remember the exact words--that the Fáffrer had given the
order for a final solution of the Jewish question. We, the SS, must carry
out that order. If it is not carried out now then the Jews will later on
destroy the German people. He had chosen Auschwitz on account of its easy
access by rail and also because the extensive site offered space for measures
ensuring isolation.
DR. KAUFFMANN: During that conference did Himmler tell you that this
planned action had to be treated as a secret Reich matter?
HOESS: Yes. He stressed that point. He told me that I was not even
allowed to say anything about it to my immediate superior Gruppenfáhrer
Glácks. This conference concerned the two of us only and I was to
observe the strictest secrecy.
DR. KAUFFMANN: What was the position held by Glácks whom you
have just mentioned?
HOESS: Gruppenfáhrer Glácks was, so to speak, the inspector
of concentration camps at that time and he was immediately subordinate
to the Reichsfáhrer.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Does the expression "secret Reich matter" mean that
no one was permitted to make even the slightest allusion to outsiders without
endangering his own life?
HOESS: Yes, "secret Reich matter" means that no one was allowed to
speak about these matters with any person and that everyone promised upon
his life to keep the utmost secrecy.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Did you happen to break that promise?
HOESS: No, not until the end of 1942.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Why do you mention that date? Did you talk to outsiders
after that date?
HOESS: At the end of 1942 my wife's curiosity was aroused by remarks
made by the then Gauleiter of Upper Silesia, regarding happenings in my
camp. She asked me whether this was the truth and I admitted that it was.
That was my only breach of the promise I had given to the Reichsfáhrer.
Otherwise I have never talked about it to anyone else.
DR. KAUFFMANN: When did you meet Eichmann?
HOESS: I met Eichmann about 4 weeks after having received that order
from the Reichsfáhrer. He came to Auschwitz to discuss the
details with me on the carrying out of the given order. As the Reichsfáhrer
had told me during our discussion, he had instructed Eichmann to discuss
the carrying out of the order with me and I was to receive all further
instructions from him.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Will you briefly tell whether it is correct that the
camp of Auschwitz was completely isolated, describing the measures taken
to insure as far as possible the secrecy of carrying out of the task given
to you.
HOESS: The Auschwitz camp as such was about 3 kilometers away from
the town. About 20,000 acres of the surrounding country had been cleared
of all former inhabitants, and the entire area could be entered only by
SS men or civilian employees who had special passes. The actual compound
called "Birkenau," where later on the extermination camp was constructed,
was situated 2 kilometers from the Auschwitz camp. The camp installations
themselves, that is to say, the provisional installations used at first
were deep in the woods and could from nowhere be detected by the eye. In
addition to that, this area had been declared a prohibited area and even
members of the SS who did not have a special pass could not enter it. Thus,
as far as one could judge, it was impossible for anyone except authorized
persons to enter that area.
DR. KAUFFMANN: And then the railway transports arrived. During what
period did these transports arrive and about how many people, roughly,
were in such a transport?
HOESS: During the whole period up until 1944 certain operations were
carried out at irregular intervals in the different countries, so that
one cannot speak of a continuous flow of incoming transports. It
was always a matter of 4 to 6 weeks. During those 4 to 6 weeks two to three
trains, containing about 2,000 persons each, arrived daily. These trains
were first of all shunted to a siding in the Birkenau region and the locomotives
then went back. The guards who had accompanied the transport had to leave
the area at once and the persons who had been brought in were taken over
by guards belonging to the camp.
They were there examined by two SS medical officers as to their fitness
for work. The internees capable of work at once marched to Auschwitz or
to the camp at Birkenau and those incapable of work were at first taken
to the provisional installations, then later to the newly constructed crematoria.
DR. KAUFFMANN: During an interrogation I had with you the other day
you told me that about 60 men were designated to receive these transports,
and that these 60 persons, too, had been bound to the same secrecy described
before. Do you still maintain that today?
HOESS: Yes, these 60 men were always on hand to take the internees
not capable of work to these provisional installations and later on to
the other ones. This group, consisting of about ten leaders and subleaders,
as well as doctors and medical personnel, had repeatedly been told, both
in writing and verbally, that they were bound to the strictest secrecy
as to all that went on in the camps.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Were there any signs that might show an outsider who
saw these transports arrive, that they would be destroyed or was that possibility
so small because there was in Auschwitz an unusually large number of incoming
transports, shipments of goods and so forth?
HOESS: Yes, an observer who did not make special notes for that purpose
could obtain no idea about that because to begin with not only transports
arrived which were destined to be destroyed but also other transports.
arrived continuously, containing new internees who were needed in the camp.
Furthermore, transports likewise left the camp in sufficiently large numbers
with internees fit for work or exchanged prisoners.
The trains themselves were closed, that is to say, the doors of the
freight cars were closed so that it was not possible, from the outside,
to get a glimpse of the people inside. In addition to that, up to 100 cars
of materials, rations, et cetera, were daily rolled into the camp or continuously
left the workshops of the camp in which war material was being made.
DR. KAUFFMANN: And after the arrival of the transports were the victims
stripped of everything they had? Did they have to undress completely; did
they have to surrender their valuables? Is that true?
HOESS: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: And then they immediately went to their death?
HOESS: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I ask you, according to your knowledge, did these people
know what was in store for them?
HOESS: The majority of them did not, for steps were taken to keep them
in doubt about it and suspicion would not arise that they were to go to
their death. For instance, all doors and all walls bore inscriptions to
the effect that they were going to undergo a delousing operation or take
a shower. This was made known in several languages to the internees by
other internees who had come in with earlier transports and who were being
used as auxiliary crews during the whole action.
DR. KAUFFMANN: And then, you told me the other day, that death by gassing
set in within a period of 3 to 15 minutes. Is that correct?
HOESS: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: You also told me that even before death finally set
in, the victims fell into a state of unconsciousness?
HOESS: Yes. From what I was able to find out myself or from what was
told me by medical officers, the time necessary for reaching unconsciousness
or death varied according to the temperature and the number of people present
in the chambers. Loss of consciousness took place within a few seconds
or a few minutes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Did you yourself ever feel pity with the victims, thinking
of your own family and children?
HOESS: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: How was it possible for you to carry out these actions
in spite of this?
HOESS: In view of all these doubts which I had, the only one and decisive
argument was the strict order and the reason given for it by the Reichsfáhrer
Himmler.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I ask you whether Himmler inspected the camp and convinced
himself, too, of the process of annihilation?
HOESS: Yes. Himmler visited the camp in 1942 and he watched in detail
one processing from beginning to end.
DR. KAUFMANN: Does the same apply to Eichmann?
HOESS: Eichmann came repeatedly to Auschwitz and was intimately acquainted
with the proceedings.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Did the Defendant Kaltenbrunner ever inspect the camp?
HOESS: No.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Did you ever talk with Kaltenbrunner with reference
to your task?
HOESS: No, never. I was with Obergruppenfáhrer Kaltenbrunner
on only one single occasion.
DR. KAUFFMANN: When was that?
HOESS: That was one day after his birthday in the year 1944.
DR. KAUFFMANN: And what was the subject of that conference which you
have just mentioned?
HOESS: It concerned a report from the camp at Mauthausen on the so-called
nameless internees and their engagement in armament industry. Obergruppenfáhrer
Kaltenbrunner was to make a decision on the matter. For that reason I came
to him with the report from the commander at Mauthausen but he did not
make a decision telling me he would do so later.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Regarding the location of Mauthausen, will you please
state in which district Mauthausen is situated. Is that Upper Silesia or
is it the Government General?
HOESS: Mauthausen . . .
DR. KAUFFMANN: Auschwitz, I beg your pardon, I made a mistake. I mean
Auschwitz.
HOESS: Auschwitz is situated in the former state of Poland. Later,
after 1939, it was incorporated in the province of Upper Silesia.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Is it right for me to assume that administration and
feeding of concentration camps were exclusively under the control of the
Main Economic and Administrative Office?
HOESS: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: A department which is completely separated from the
RSHA?
HOESS: Quite correct.
DR. KAUFFMANN: And then from 1943 until the end of the war, you were
one of the chiefs in the Inspectorate of the Main Economic and Administrative
Office?
HOESS: Yes, that is correctly stated.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Do you mean by that, that you are particularly well
informed on everything occurring in concentration camps regarding the treatment
and the methods applied?
HOESS: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I ask you, therefore, first of all, whether you have
any knowledge regarding the treatment of internees, whether certain methods
became known to you according to which they were tortured and cruelly treated?
Please formulate your statement according to periods, up to 1939 and after
1939.
HOESS: Until the outbreak of war in 1939, the situation in the camps
regarding feeding, accommodations, and treatment of internees, was the
same as in any other prison or penitentiary in the Reich. The internees
were treated severely, but methodical beatings or ill-treatments were out
of the question. The Reichsfáhrer gave frequent orders that every
SS man who laid violent hands on an internee would be punished; and several
times SS men who did ill-treat internees were punished.
Feeding and billeting at that time were on the same basis as those
of other prisoners under legal administration.
The accommodations in the camps during those years were still normal
because the mass influxes at the outbreak of the war and during the war
had not yet taken place. When the war started and when mass deliveries
of political internees arrived, and, later on, when prisoners who were
members of the resistance movements arrived from the occupied territories,
the construction of buildings and the extensions of the camps could no
longer keep pace with the number of incoming internees. During the first
years of the war this problem could still be overcome by improvising measures;
but later, due to the exigencies of the war, this was no longer possible
' since there were practically no building materials any more at our disposal.
And, furthermore, rations for the internees were again and again severely
curtailed by the provincial economic administration offices.
This then led to a situation where internees in the camps no longer
had the staying power to resist the now gradually growing epidemics.
The main reason why the prisoners were in such bad condition towards
the end of the war, why so many thousands of them were found sick and emaciated
in the camps, was that every, internee had to be employed in the armament
industry to the extreme limit of his forces. The Reichsfáhrer constantly
and on every occasion kept this goal before our eyes, and also proclaimed
it through the Chief of the Main Economic and Administrative Office, Obergruppenfáhrer
Pohl, to the concentration camp, commanders and administrative leaders
during the so-called commanders' meetings.
Every commander was told to make every effort to achieve this. The
aim was not to have as many dead as possible or to destroy as many internees
as possible; the Reichsfáhrer was constantly concerned with being
able to engage all forces available in the armament industry.
DR. KAUFFMANN: There is no doubt that the longer the war lasted, the
larger became the number of the ill-treated and tortured inmates. Whenever
you inspected the concentration camps did you not learn something of this
state of affairs through complaints, et cetera, or do you consider that
the conditions which have been described are more or less due to excesses?
HOESS: These so-called ill-treatments and this torturing in concentration
camps, stories of which were spread everywhere among the people, and later
by the prisoners that were liberated by the occupying armies, were not,
as assumed, inflicted methodically, but were excesses committed by individual
leaders, subleaders, and men who laid violent hands on internees.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Do you mean you never took cognizance of these matters?
HOESS: If in any way such a case came to be known, then the perpetrator
was, of course, immediately relieved of his post or transferred somewhere
else. So that, even if he were not punished f or lack of evidence to prove
his guilt, even then, he was taken away from the internees and given another
position.
DR. KAUFFMANN: To what do you attribute the particularly bad and shameful
conditions, which were ascertained by the entering Allied troops, and which
to a certain extent were photographed and filmed?
HOESS: The catastrophic situation. at the end of the war was due to
the fact that, as a result of the destruction of the railway network and
of the continuous bombing of the industrial plants, care for these masses--I
am thinking of Auschwitz with its 140,000 internees--could no longer be
assured. Improvised measures, truck columns, and everything else tried
by the commanders to improve the situation were of little or no avail;
it was no longer possible. The number of the sick became immense. There
were next to no medical supplies; epidemics raged everywhere. Internees
who were capable of work were used over and over again. By order of the
Reichsfáhrer, even half-sick people had to be used wherever possible
in industry. As a result every bit of space in the concentration. camps
which could possibly be used for lodging was overcrowded with sick and
dying prisoners.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I am now asking you to look at the map which is mounted
behind you. The red dots represent concentration camps. I will first ask
you how many concentration camps as such existed at the end of the war?
HOESS: At the end of the war there were still 13 concentration camps.
All the other points which are marked here on the map mean so-called labor
camps attached to the armament industry situated there. The concentration
camps, of which there are 13 as I have already said, were the, center and
the central point of some district, such as the camp at Dachau in Bavaria,
or the camp of Mauthausen in Austria; and all the labor camps in that district
were under the control of the concentration camp. That camp had then to
supply these outside camps, that is to say, they had to supply them with
workers, exchange the sick inmates and furnish clothing; the guards, too,
were supplied by the concentration camp.
From 1944 on, the supplying of food was almost exclusively a matter
of the individual armament industries in order to give the prisoners the
benefit of the wartime supplementary rations.
DR. KAUFFMANN: What became known to you about so-called medical experiments
on living internees?
HOESS: Medical experiments were carried out in several camps. For instance,
in Auschwitz there were experiments on sterilization carried out by Professor
Klaubert and Dr. Schumann; also experiments on twins by SS medical officer
Dr. Mengele.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Do you know the medical officer Dr. Rascher?
HOESS: In Dachau he was a medical officer of the Luftwaffe who carried
out experiments, on internees who had been sentenced to death, about the
resistance of the human body to cold and in high pressure chambers.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Can you tell whether such experiments carried out within
the camp were known to a large circle?
HOESS: Such experiments, just like all other matters, were, of course,
called "secret Reich matters." However, it could not be avoided that the
experiments became known since they were carried out in a large camp and
must have been seen in some way by the inmates. I cannot say, however,
to what extent the outside world learned about these experiments.
DR. KAUFFMANN: You explained to me that orders for executions were
received in the camp at Auschwitz, and you told me that until the outbreak
of war such orders were few, but that later on they became more numerous.
Is that correct?
HOESS: Yes. There were hardly any executions until the beginning of
the war--only in particularly serious cases. I remember one case in Buchenwald
where an SS man had been attacked and beaten to death by internees, and
the internees were later hanged.
DR. KAUFFMANN: But during the war--and that you will admit--the number
of executions increased, and not inconsiderably.
HOESS: That had already started with the beginning of the war.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Was the basis for these execution orders in many cases
a legal sentence of German courts?
HOESS: No. Orders for the executions carried out in the camps came
from the RSHA.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Who signed the orders for executions which you received?
Is it correct that occasionally you received orders for executions which
bore the signature "Kaltenbrunner," and that these were not the originals
but were teleprints; which therefore had the signature in typewritten letters?
HOESS: It is correct. The originals of execution orders never came
to the camps. The original of these orders either arrived at the Inspectorate
of the Concentration Camps, from where they were transmitted by teletype
to the camps concerned, or, in urgent cases, the RSHA sent the orders directly
to the camps concerned, and the Inspectorate was then only informed, so
that the signatures in the camps were always only in teletype.
DR. KAUFFMANN: So as to again determine the signatures, will you tell
the Tribunal whether the overwhelming majority of all execution orders
either bore the signature of Himmler or that of Máller in the years
before the war and until the end of the war.
HOESS: Only very few teletypes which I have ever seen came from the
Reichsfáhrer and still fewer from the Defendant Kaltenbrunner. Most
of them, I could say practically all, were signed "Signed Máller."
DR. KAUFFMANN: Is that the Máller with whom you repeatedly talked
about such matters as you stated earlier?
HOESS: Gruppenfáhrer Máller was the Chief of Department
IV in the RSHA. He had to negotiate with the Inspectorate about all matters
connected with concentration camps.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Would you say that you went to see the Gestapo Chief
Máller because you, on the strength of your experience, were of
the opinion that this man because of his years of activities was acting
almost independently?
HOESS: That is quite right. I had to negotiate all matters regarding
concentration camps with Gruppenfáhrer Máller. He was informed
on all these matters, and in most cases he would make an immediate decision.
DR., KAUFFMANN: Well, so as to have a clear picture, did you ever negotiate
these matters with the defendant?
HOESS: No.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Did you learn that towards the end of the war concentration
camps were evacuated? And, if so, who gave the orders?
HOESS: Let me explain. Originally there was an order from the Reichsfáhrer,
according to which camps, in the event of the approach of the enemy or
in case of air attacks, were to be surrendered to the enemy. Later on,
due to the case of Buchenwald, which had been reported to the Fáhrer,
there was--no, at the beginning of 1945, when various camps came within
the operational sphere of the enemy, this order was withdrawn. The Reichsfáhrer
ordered the Higher SS and Police Leaders, who in an emergency case were
responsible for the security and safety of the camps, to decide themselves
whether an evacuation or a surrender was appropriate.
Auschwitz and Gross-Rosen were evacuated. Buchenwald was also to be
evacuated, but then the order from the Reichsfáhrer came through
to the effect that on principle no more camps were to be evacuated. Only
prominent inmates and inmates who were not to fall into Allied hands under
any circumstances were to be taken away to other camps. This also happened
in the case of Buchenwald. After Buchenwald had been occupied, it was reported
to the Fáhrer that internees had armed themselves and were carrying
out plunderings in the town of Weimar. This caused the Fáhrer to
give the strictest order to Himmler to the effect that in the future no
more camps were to fall into the hands of the enemy, and that no internees
capable of marching would be left behind in any camp.
This was shortly before the end of the war, and shortly before northern
and southern Germany were cut. I shall speak about the Sachsenhausen camp.
The Gestapo chief, Gruppenfáhrer Máller, called me in the
evening and told me that the Reichsfáhrer had ordered that the camp
at Sachsenhausen was to be evacuated at once. I pointed out to Gruppenfáhrer
Máller what that would mean. Sachsenhausen could no longer fall
back on any other camp except perhaps on a few labor camps attached to
the armament works that were almost filled up anyway. Most of the internees
would have to be sheltered in the woods somewhere. This would mean countless
thousands of deaths and, above all it would be impossible to feed these
masses of people. He promised me that he would again discuss these measures
with the Reichsfáhrer He called me back and told me that the
Reichsfáhrer had refused and was demanding that the commanders carry
out his orders immediately.
At the same time Ravensbráck was also to be evacuated in the
same manner but it could no longer be done. I do not know to what extent
camps in southern Germany were cleared, since we, the Inspectorate, no
longer had any connections with southern Germany.
DR. KAUFFMANN: It has been maintained here--and this is my last question--that
the Defendant Kaltenbrunner gave the order that Dachau and two auxiliary
camps were to be destroyed by bombing or with poison. I ask you, did you
hear anything about this; if not, would you consider such an order possible?
HOESS: I have never heard anything about this, and I do not know anything
either about an order to evacuate any camps in southern Germany, as I have
already mentioned. Apart from that, I consider it quite impossible that
a camp could be destroyed by this method.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the defendants' counsel want to ask any questions?
DR. MERKEL: Witness, did the State Police, as an authority of the Reich,
have anything to do with the destruction of Jews in Auschwitz?
HOESS: Yes, insofar as I received all my orders as to the carrying
out of that action from the Obersturmfáhrer Eichmann.
DR. MERKEL: Was the administration of concentration camps under the
control of the Main Economic and Administrative Office?
HOESS: Yes.
DR. MERKEL: You said already that you had nothing to do with the RSHA.
HOESS: No.
DR. MERKEL: Please, will you emphasize, therefore, that the Gestapo
as such had nothing to do with the administration of the camps or the accommodation,
feeding, and treatment of the internees, but that this was exclusively
a matter for the Main Economic and Administrative Office?
HOESS: Yes, that is quite correct.
DR. MERKEL: How do you explain it then that you, nevertheless, discussed
different questions concerning concentration camps with Máller?
HOESS: The RSHA, or rather Amt IV, had the executive power for the
directing of all internees into camps, classification into the camp grades
1, 2, 3, and furthermore, the punishments which were to be carried out
on the part of the RSHA. Executions, the accommodation, of special internees,
and all question which might ensue therefrom were also taken care of by
the RSHA or Amt IV.
DR. MERKEL: When was this Main Economic and Administrative Office created?
HOESS: The Main Economic and Administrative Office existed since 1933
under various names. The Inspectorate of Concentration Camps was, however,
subordinated only to this Main Economic and Administrative Office since
the year 1941.
DR. MERKEL: Then these concentration camps were from the very beginning
under the control of this Main Economic and Administrative Office, that
is to say the SS and not the State Police.
HOESS: Yes.
DR. MERKEL: You mentioned the name of Dr. Rascher a while ago. Do you
know this doctor personally?
HOESS: Yes.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know that Dr. Rascher before beginning his work
at Dachau had become a member of the SS?
HOESS: No, I know nothing about that. I only know that later he--I
still saw him in the uniform of an Air Force medical officer. Later he
was supposed to have been taken over into the SS, but I did not see him
again.
DR. MERKEL: I have no further questions. Thank you very much.
HERR LUDWIG BABEL (Counsel for SS): Witness, at the beginning of your
examination you stated that when you were ordered to the Reichsfáhrer
SS Himmler, he told you that the carrying out of this order of the Fáhrer
was to be left to the SS and that the SS had been ordered to do it. What
is to be understood under this general title SS?
HOESS: According to the explanations of the Reichsfáhrer, this
could only mean the men guarding the concentration camps. According to
the nature of the order only concentration camp crews and not the Waffen?SS
could be concerned with the carrying out of this task.
HERR BABEL: How many members of the SS were assigned to concentration
camps, and which units did they belong to?
HOESS: Toward the end of the war there were approximately 35,000 SS
men and in my estimation approximately 10,000 men from the Army, Air Force,
and the Navy detailed to the labor camps for guard duties.
HERR BABEL: What were the tasks of these guards? As far as I know,
the duties varied. First, there was the actual guarding and then there
was a certain amount of administrative work within the camp.
HOESS: Yes, that is correct.
HERR BABEL: How many guards were there within the camps for, let us
say, 1,000 internees?
HOESS: You cannot estimate it in that way. According to my observations
about 10 percent of the total number of guarding personnel were used for
internal duties, that is to say, administration and supervision of internees
within the camp, including the medical personnel of the camp.
HERR BABEL: So that 90 percent were therefore used far the exterior
guarding, that is to say, for watching the camp from watch towers and for
escorting the internees on work assignments.
HOESS: Yes.
HERR BABEL: Did you make any observations as to whether there was any
ill-treatment of prisoners to a greater or lesser degree on the part of
those guards, or whether the ill-treatment was mainly to be traced back
to the so-called Kapos?
HOESS: If any ill-treatment of prisoners by guards occurred-I myself
have never observed any--then this was possible only to a very small degree
since all offices in charge of the camps took care that as few SS men as
possible had direct contact with the inmates, because in the course of
the years the guard personnel had deteriorated to such an extent that the
standards formerly demanded could no longer be maintained.
We had thousands of guards who could hardly speak German, who came
from all lands as volunteers and joined these, units, or we had older men,
between 50 and 60, who lacked all interest in their work, so that a camp
commander had to watch constantly that these men fulfilled even the lowest
requirements of their duties. It is obvious that there were elements among
them who would ill-treat internees, but this ill-treatment was never tolerated.
Besides, it was impossible to have these masses of people directed
at work or when in the camp by SS men only; therefore, inmates had to be
assigned everywhere to direct the other prisoners and set them to work.
The internal administration of the camp was almost completely in their
hands. Of course a great deal of ill-treatment occurred which could not
be avoided because at night there were hardly any members of the SS in
the camps. Only in specific cases were SS men allowed to enter the camp,
so that the internees were more or less exposed to these Kapos.
HERR BABEL: You have already mentioned regulations which existed for
the guards, but there was also a standing order in each camp. In this camp
order certainly punishment was provided for internees who violated the
camp rules. What punishment was provided?
HOESS: First of all, transfer to a penal company (Strafkompanie), that
is to say, harder work and restricted accommodations; next, detention in
the cell block, detention in a dark cell; and in very serious cases, chaining
or strapping. Punishment by strapping was prohibited in the year 1942 or
1943--I cannot say exactly when--by the Reichsfáhrer. Then there
was the punishment of standing at the camp gate over a rather long period,
and finally corporal punishment.
However, no commander could decree this corporal punishment on his
own authority. He could only apply for it. In the case of men, the decision
came from the Inspector of Concentration Camps Gruppenfáhrer Schmidt,
and where women were concerned, the Reichsfáhrer reserved the decision
exclusively for himself.
HERR BABEL: It may also be known to you that for members of the SS,
too, there were two penal camps which sometimes were called concentration
camps, namely, Dachau and Danzig-Matzkau.
HOESS: That is right.
HERR BABEL: Were the existing camp regulations and the treatment of
members of the SS who were put in such camps different from the regulations
applying to the other concentration camps?
HOESS: Yes, these two detention camps were not under the Inspectorate
for Concentration Camps, but they were under an SS and Police court. I
myself have neither inspected nor seen these two camps.
HERR BABEL: So that you know nothing about the standing orders relating
to those camps?
HOESS: I know nothing about them.
HERR BABEL: I have no further questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn for 10 minutes.
[A recess was taken.]
DR. HAENSEL: I have a question that I would like to ask the High Tribunal.
A second defense counsel has been requested for the SS. Is it permitted
that several questions be put for the second defense counsel?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal ruled a long time ago that only one counsel
could be heard.
DR. HAENSEL: Yes.
FLOTTENRICHTER OTTO KRANZBàHLER (Counsel for Defendant D`nitz):
Witness, you just mentioned that members of the Navy were detailed to guard
concentration camps.
HOESS: Yes.
FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBàHLER: Were these concentration camps,
or were they labor camps?
HOESS: They were labor camps.
FLOTTENRICHM KRANZBàHLER: Are labor camps barracks camps of
the armament industries?
HOESS: Yes, if they were not accommodated in the actual factories themselves.
FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBàHLER: I have been informed that soldiers
who were to be assigned for guard duty at labor camps were given over to
the SS.
HOESS: That is only partially correct. A part of these men-I do not
recall the figures--was taken over into the SS. A part was returned to
the original unit, or exchanged. Exchanges were continually taking place.
FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBàHLER: Thank you.
COL. AMEN: If the Tribunal please, first I would like to submit, on
behalf of our British Allies, a series of exhibits pertaining to the Waffen-SS,
without reading them. It is merely statistical information with respect
to the number of Waffen-SS guards used at the concentration camps.
I ask that the witness be shown Documents D-745 (a-b), D-746 (a-b),'
D-747, D-748, D-749 (b), and D-750, one of them being a statement of this
witness.
[The documents were submitted to the witness.1
Witness, you made the statement, D-749 (b), which has been handed to
you?
HOESS: Yes.
COL. AMEN: And you are familiar with the content of the others?
HOESS: Yes.
COL. AMEN: And you testify that those figures are true and correct?
HOESS: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Very good. Those will become Exhibit Number USA-810.
Witness, from time to time did any high Nazi officials or functionaries
visit the camp at Mauthausen or Dachau while you were there?
HOESS: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Will you state the names of such persons to the Tribunal
please?
HOESS: I remember that in 1935 all the Gauleiter inspected Dachau guided
by Reichsfáhrer Himmler. I do not remember them individually.
COL. AMEN: Do you recall any of the ministers having visited either
of those camps while you were there?
HOESS: Do you mean by this the inspection tour of 1935?
COL. AMEN: At any time while you were at either of those concentration
camps.
HOESS: In 1938 Minister Frick was at Sachsenhausen.
COL. AMEN: Do you recall any other ministers who were there at any
time?
HOESS: Not at Sachsenhausen, but at Auschwitz, the Minister of Justice.
COL. AMEN: Who was he?
HOESS: Thierack.
COL. AMEN: And who else? Do you recall any others?
HOESS: Yes, but, I do not remember the name for the moment.
COL. AMEN: Well, who?
HOESS: I have already stated that in the record, but at the moment
I cannot recall the name.
COL. AMEN: All right. You have testified that many of the execution
orders were signed by Máller. Is that correct?
HOESS: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Is it not a fact that all of those execution orders to which
you testified were signed by . . .
DR. STEINBAUER: Pardon me, Mr. President, documents have been submitted
and the witness is being questioned about the contents. The Defense is
not in a position to follow the Prosecution because we do not know the
contents of these documents. I request that we receive copies of them.
THE PRESIDENT: Haven't copies of these documents been handed to the
defendants?
COL. AMEN: Yes, so I understood. We have copies here. However, five
German copies have been distributed.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the matter can be looked into.
COL. AMEN: Witness, I was asking you about these execution orders which
you testify were signed by Máller. Do you understand?
HOESS: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Is it not a fact that all of these execution orders
which you testify were signed by Máller were also signed by
order of, or as representative of, the Chief of the RSHA, Kaltenbrunner?.
HOESS: Yes. That was on the copies that I had in the originals. Afterwards,
when I was employed at Oranienburg, it said underneath, "I. V. Máller"?"in
Vertretung Máller" (as representative, Máller).
COL. AMEN: In other words Máller was merely signing as the representative
of the Chief of the RSHA, Kaltenbrunner? Is that not correct?
HOESS: I must assume so.
COL. AMEN: And, of course, you know that Máller was a subordinate
of the Chief of the RSHA, Kaltenbrunner.
HOESS: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Witness, you made an affidavit, did you not, at the request
of the Prosecution?
HOESS: Yes.
COL. AMEN: I ask that the witness be shown Document 3868-PS, which
will become Exhibit USA-819.
[The document was submitted to the witness.]
COL. AMEN: You signed that affidavit voluntarily, Witness?
HOESS: Yes.
COL. AMEN: And the affidavit is true in all respects?
HOESS: Yes.
COL. AMEN: This, if the Tribunal please, we have in four languages.
[Turning to the witness.] Some of the matters covered in this affidavit
you have already told us about in part, so I will omit some parts of the
affidavit. If you will follow along with me as I read, please. Do you have
a copy of the affidavit before you?
HOESS: Yes.
COL. AMEN: I will omit the first paragraph and start with Paragraph
2:
"I have been constantly associated with the administration of concentration
camps since 1934, serving at Dachau until 1938; then as Adjutant in Sachsenhausen
from 1938 to 1 May 1940, when I was appointed Commandant of Auschwitz..
I commanded Auschwitz until 1 December 1943, and estimate that at least
2,500,000 victims were executed and exterminated there by gassing and burning,
and at least another half million succumbed to starvation and disease making
a total dead of about 3,000,000. This?figure represents about 70 or 80
percent of all persons sent to Auschwitz as prisoners, the remainder having
been selected and used for slave labor in the concentration camp industries;
included among the executed and burned were approximately 20,000 Russian
prisoners of war (previously screened out of prisoner-of-war cages by the
Gestapo) who were delivered at Auschwitz in Wehrmacht transports operated
by regular Wehrmacht officers and men. The remainder of the total number
of victims included about 100,000 German Jews, and great numbers of citizens,
mostly Jewish, from Holland, France, Belgium, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia,
Greece, or other countries. We executed about 400,000 Hungarian Jews alone
at Auschwitz in the summer of 1944."
That is all true, Witness?
HOESS: Yes, it is.
COL. AMEN: Now I omit the first few lines of Paragraph 3 and start
in the middle of Paragraph 3:
“. . . prior to establishment of the RSHA, the Secret State Police
Office (Gestapo) and the Reich Office of Criminal Police were responsible
for arrests, commitments to concentration camps, punishments and executions
therein. After organization of the RSHA all of these functions were carried
on as before, but pursuant to orders signed by Heydrich as Chief of the
RSHA. While Kaltenbrunner was Chief of RSHA orders for protective custody,
commitments, punishment, and individual executions were signed by Kaltenbrunner
or by Máller, Chief of the Gestapo, as Kaltenbrunner's deputy."
THE PRESIDENT: Just for the sake of accuracy, the last date in Paragraph
2, is that 1943 or 1944?
COL. AMEN: 1944, I believe. Is that date correct, Witness, at the close
of Paragraph 2, namely, that the 400,000 Hungarian Jews alone at Auschwitz
in the summer of 1944 were executed? is that 1944 or 1943?
HOESS: 1944. Part of that figure also goes back to 1943; only a part.
I cannot give the exact figure; the end was 1944, autumn of 1944.
COL. AMEN: Right.
"4. Mass executions by gassing commenced during the summer of 1941
and continued until fall 1944. 1 personally supervised executions at Auschwitz
until first of December 1943 and know by reason of my continued duties
in the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps, WVHA, that these mass executions
continued as stated above. All mass executions by gassing took place under
the direct order, supervision, and responsibility of RSHA. I received all
orders for carrying out these mass executions directly from RSHA." Are
those statements true and correct, Witness?
HOESS: Yes, they are.
COL. AMEN: "5. On 1 December 1943 1 became Chief of Amt 1 in Amt Group
D of the WVHA, and in that office was responsible for co-ordinating all
matters arising between RSHA and concentration camps under the administration
of WVHA. I held this position until the end of the war. Pohl, as Chief
of WVHA, and Kaltenbrunner, as Chief of RSHA, often conferred personally
and frequently communicated orally and in writing concerning concentration
camps. . . ."
You have already told us about the lengthy report which you took to
Kaltenbrunner in Berlin, so I will omit the remainder of Paragraph 5.
"6. The 'final solution' of the Jewish question meant the complete
extermination of all Jews in Europe. I was ordered to establish extermination
facilities at Auschwitz in June 1941. At that time, there were already
in the General Government three other extermination camps: Belzek, Treblinka,
and Wolzek. These camps were under the Einsatzkommando of the Security
Police and SD. I visited Treblinka to find out how they carried out their
exterminations. The camp commandant at Treblinka told me that he had liquidated
80,000 in the course of one-half year. He was principally concerned with
liquidating all the Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto. He used monoxide gas,
and I did not think that his methods were very efficient. So when I set
up the extermination building at Auschwitz, I used Cyklon B, which was
a crystallized prussic acid which we dropped into the death chamber from
a small opening. It took from 3 to 15 minutes to kill the people in the
death chamber, depending upon climatic conditions. We knew when the people
were dead because their screaming stopped. We usually waited about one-half
hour before we opened the doors and removed the bodies. After the bodies
were removed our special Kommandos took off the rings and extracted the
gold from the teeth of the corpses."
Is that all true and correct, Witness?
HOESS: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Incidentally, what was done with the gold which was taken
from the teeth of the corpses, do you know?
HOESS: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Will you tell the Tribunal?
HOESS: This gold was melted down and brought to the Chief Medical Office
of the SS at Berlin.
COL. AMEN:
"7 Another improvement we made over Treblinka was that we built our
gas chamber to accommodate 2,000 people at one time whereas at Treblinka
their 10 gas chambers only accommodated 200 people each. The way we selected
our victims was as follows: We had two SS doctors on duty at Auschwitz
to examine the incoming transports of prisoners. The prisoners would be
marched by one of the doctors who would make spot decisions as they walked
by. Those who were fit for work were sent into the camp. Others were sent
immediately to the extermination plants. Children of tender years were
invariably exterminated since by reason of their youth they were unable
to work. Still another improvement we made over Treblinka was that at Treblinka
the victims almost always knew that they were to be exterminated and at
Auschwitz we endeavored to fool the victims into thinking that they were
to go through a delousing process. Of course, frequently they realized
our true intentions and we sometimes had riots and difficulties due to
that fact. Very frequently women would hide their children under the clothes,
but of course when we found them we would send the children in to be exterminated.
We were required to carry out these exterminations in secrecy but of course
the foul and nauseating stench from the continuous burning of bodies permeated
the entire area and all of the people living in the surrounding communities
knew that exterminations were going on at Auschwitz."
Is that all true and correct, Witness?
HOESS: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Now, I will omit Paragraphs 8 and 9, which have to do with
the medical experiments as to which you have already testified.
"10. Rudolf Mildner was the chief of the Gestapo at Katowice . . .
from approximately March 1941 until September 1943. As such, he frequently
sent prisoners to Auschwitz for incarceration or execution. He visited
Auschwitz on several occasions. The Gestapo court, the SS Standgericht,
which tried persons accused of various crimes, such as escaping prisoners
of war, et cetera, ?frequently met within Auschwitz, and Mildner often
attended the trial of such persons, who usually were executed in Auschwitz
following their sentence. I showed Mildner through the extermination plant
at Auschwitz and he was directly interested in it since he had to send
the Jews from his territory for execution at Auschwitz.
"I understand English as it is written above. The above statements
are true; this declaration is made by me voluntarily and without compulsion;
after reading over the statement I have signed and executed the same at
Nuremberg, Germany, on the fifth day of April 1946."
Now I ask you, Witness, is everything which I have read to you true
to your own knowledge?
HOESS: Yes.
COL. AMEN: That concludes my cross-examination, except for one exhibit
that our British allies would like to have in, which is a summary sheet
of the exhibits which I introduced at the commencement of the cross-examination.
That will be Exhibit Number USA-810. It is a summary of the earlier exhibits
that I put in with respect to the Waffen-SS at the commencement of my cross-examination.
Now, I understand, Your Lordship, that both the Soviet and the French
delegations have one or two questions which they consider peculiar to their
country which they would like to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: General Rudenko, you will remember that the Tribunal
was assured by Counsel for the Prosecution that, so far as witnesses were
concerned, with the exception of one or. two particular defendants, the
Prosecution would have only one cross-examination and now, since that assurance
was given, this is the second instance when the Prosecution have desired
to have more than one cross-examination.
GEN. RUDENKO: This is correct, Mr. President, that the Prosecution
did make that statement; however, the Prosecution reserved the right to
do otherwise on certain occasions when deemed necessary. Since, in this
case, the Prosecution represent four different states, occasions do arise
when each of the prosecutors feels that he has the right to ask the defendant
or witnesses individual questions particularly interesting to his own country.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you indicate the nature of the questions which
the Soviet Prosecution desire to put? I mean the subjects upon which they
are. I don't mean the exact questions but the subject.
GEN. RUDENKO: Yes, I understand. Colonel Pokrovsky, who intends to
ask the questions, will report on the subject to the Tribunal.
COL. POKROVSKY: May I report to you, Mr. President, that the questions
of interest to the Soviet Prosecution are those dealing specifically with
the annihilation of millions of Soviet citizens and some details connected
with that annihilation. At the request of the French Prosecution, and in
order to clarify the contents I would also like to ask two or three questions
connected with the documents which in due course were submitted as Document
F-709(a) to the Tribunal by the French Prosecution. This is really all
there is; however, these questions do have great importance for us.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Pokrovsky, the Tribunal, as has just been stated,
made the rule, with the assent of the Prosecutors, that in the case of
the witnesses there should be one cross-examination. There is nothing in
the Charter which expressly gives to the Prosecution the right for each
prosecutor to cross-examine and there is, on the other hand, Article 18
which directs the Tribunal to take strict measures to prevent any action
which will cause unreasonable delay, and, in the opinion of the Tribunal
in the present case, the subject has been fully covered and the Tribunal
therefore think it right to adhere to the rules which they have laid down
in this case. They will therefore not hear any further cross-examination.
Do you wish to re-examine, Dr. Kauffmann?
DR. KAUFFMANN: I will be very brief.
Witness, in the affidavit which was just read, you said under Point
2 that "at least an additional half million died through starvation and
disease." I ask you, when did this take place? Was it towards the end of
the war or was this fact observed by you already at an earlier period?
HOESS: No, it all goes back to the last years of the war, that is beginning
with the end of 1942.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Under Point 3, do you still have the affidavit before
you?
HOESS: No.
DR.KAUFFMANN: May I ask that it be given to the witness again?
[The document was returned to the witness.]
Under Point 3, at the end you state that orders for protective custody,
commitments, punishments, and special executions were signed by Kaltenbrunner
or Máller, Chief of the Gestapo, as Kaltenbrunner's deputy. Thus,
do you wish to contradict what you stated previously?
HOESS: No, this only completes what I said over and again. I read only
a few decrees signed by Kaltenbrunner; most of them were signed by Máller.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Under Point 4, at the end, you state:
"All mass executions through gassing took place under the direct order,
supervision, and responsibility of RSHA. I received all orders for carrying
out these mass executions directly from RSHA."
According to the statements which you previously made to the Tribunal,
this entire action came to you directly from Himmler through Eichmann,
who had been personally delegated. Do you maintain that now as before?
HOESS: Yes.
DR.KAUFFMANN: With this last sentence under Point 4, do you wish to
contradict what you testified before?
HOESS: No. I always, mean regarding mass executions, Obersturmbannfáhrer
Eichmann in connection with the RSHA.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Under Point 7, at the end, you state--I am not going
to read it--you were saying that even though exterminations took place
secretly, the population in the surrounding area noticed something of the
extermination of people. Did not, at an earlier period of time--that is,
before the beginning of this special extermination action--something of
this nature take place to remove people who had died in a normal manner
in Auschwitz?
HOESS: Yes, when the crematoria had not yet been built we burned in
large pits a large part of those who had died and who could not be cremated
in the provisional crematoria of the camp; a large number--I do not recall
the figure anymore--were placed in mass graves and later also cremated
in these graves. That was before the mass executions of Jews began.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Would you agree with me if I were to say that from the
described facts alone, one could not conclusively 'prove that this was
concerned with the extermination of Jews?
HOESS: No, this could in no way be concluded from that. The population
. . .
THE PRESIDENT: What was your question about?
DR. KAUFFMANN: My question was whether one could assume from the established
facts?at the end of Paragraph 7?that this concerned the so-called extermination
of Jews. I tied this question to the previous answer of the witness. It
is my last question.
THE PRESIDENT: The last sentence of Paragraph 7 is with reference to
the foul and nauseating stench. What is your question about that?
DR. KAUFFMANN: Whether the population could gather from these things
that an extermination of Jews was taking place.
THE PRESIDENT: That really is too obvious a question, isn't it? They
could not possibly know who it was being exterminated.
DR. KAUFFMANN: That is enough for me. I have no further questions.
DR. PANNENBECKER: I ask the Tribunal's permission to ask a few supplementary
questions, for during cross?examination the witness stated that the Defendant
Frick had visited the concentration camps Sachsenhausen and Oranienburg
in 1938.
Witness, when an inspection of the concentration camp of Oranienburg
took place at that time, 1937-38, was there any evidence at all of atrocities?
HOESS: No.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Why not?
HOESS: Because there was no question of atrocities at that time.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Is it correct that at that period of time the concentration
camp at Oranienburg was still a model of order and that agricultural labor
was the main occupation? .
HOESS: Yes, that is right. However, work was mainly done in workshops,
in wood-finishing workshops.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Can you give me any details as to what was shown
at that time at such an official visit?
HOESS: Yes. The visiting party was shown through the prisoners' camp
proper, inspected the quarters, the kitchen, the hospital, and then all
the administrative buildings; above all the workshops, where the inmates
were employed.
DR. PANNENBECKER: At that time were the quarters and the hospitals
already overcrowded?
HOESS: No, at that time they were normally filled.
DR. PANNENBECKER: How did these quarters look?
HOESS: At that period of time, living quarters looked the same as the
barracks of a training ground. The internees still had bedclothing and
all necessary hygienic facilities. Everything was yet in the best of order.
DR. PANNENBECKER: That is all. I have no further questions.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Francis Biddle, Member for the United States): Witness,
what was the greatest number of labor camps existing at any one time?
HOESS: I cannot give the exact figure but in my estimation there were
approximately 900.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): What was the population of these 900?
HOESS: I am not able to say that either; the population varied. There
were camps with 100 internees and camps with 10,000 internees. Therefore,
I cannot give any figure of the total number of people who were in these
labor camps.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Under whose administration were the labor
camps? under what offices?
HOESS: These labor camps, as far as the guarding, direction, and clothing
were concerned, were under the control of the Economic and Administration
Main Office. All matters dealing with labor output and the supplying of
food were attended to by the armament industries which employed these internees.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): And at the end of the war were the conditions
in those labor camps similar to those existing in the concentration camps
as you described them before?
HOESS: Yes. Since there no longer was any possibility of bringing ill
internees to the main camps, there was much overcrowding in these labor
camps and the death rate very high.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire.
[The witness left the stand.]