Testimony of William Frapolly 

MR. FORAN: Will you state your name, please?

THE WITNESS: William Frapolly.

MR. FORAN: What has been your occupation for the last two years?

THE WITNESS: I have been a student at Northeastern Illinois State College.

MR. FORAN: Have you been a member of any organizations during that time?

THE WITNESS: Yes.  Northeastern Illinois State College Peace Council, SDS, the Chicago Peace Council, Student Mobilization, and National Mobilization.

MR. FORAN: When did you join the Students for a Democratic Society?

THE WITNESS: Late in June of 1968.

MR. FORAN: Now, during this period of time has your appearance altered any?

THE WITNESS: Yes, I have grown sideburns approximately to here.  My hair is exceedingly long, I have grown a goatee, and I have grown a mustache.

MR. FORAN: Now, during this period of time have you been otherwise employed?

THE WITNESS: Yes, as a member of the Chicago Police Department.

MR. FORAN: When did you first join the Chicago Police Department?'

THE WITNESS: I first joined the Chicago Police Department in June of 1966.

MR. FORAN: What is your rank now, sir?

THE WITNESS: I am a patrolman.

MR. FORAN: Now, calling your attention to July 16, 1968, in the afternoon, where were you?

THE WITNESS: On July 16 1 attended a meeting at Northeastern Illinois State College.

MR. FORAN: What, if anything, occurred?

THE WITNESS: I filled out a form from the National Mobilization Committee stating I would like to be a marshal for the Democratic National Convention.

MR. FORAN: Now, calling your attention to Friday, August 9, 1968, in the morning, where were you?

THE WITNESS: I went to National Mobilization Committee headquarters.  I walked in, I asked someone where the marshals' meeting was.  They directed me to the room on the west end of the building.

MR. FORAN: Do you remember any of the people who were in that room?

THE WITNESS: Yes.  Rennie Davis was there, David Dellinger, Lee Weiner, Richard Bosciano, Ben Radford, Robert Karlock, Ken Friedman, Dwayne Oklepek, Irv Bock, and there were many other people there.

MR. FORAN: Now you named Rennie Davis.  Do you see Mr. Davis here in the courtroom?


THE COURT: Please step down, Mr. Witness, and point to the man you think is.

MR. FORAN: Walk over toward him, Mr. Witness.

A DEFENDANT: Oink oink.

(Witness identifies defendants and returns to stand.)

MR. FORAN: Now as you entered the meeting, what was being said, if anything, and by whom?

THE WITNESS: Mr. Davis was talking about the march routes on the twenty-eighth.  He was saying that they had two plans to march on that night to the Amphitheatre.  The first plan was to assemble in Washington Park and then to move west from Washington Park to Halsted and then north on Halsted to the Amphitheatre.
    He said he had an alternative, to mass somewhere else in that general area and use the same approximate route to the Amphitheatre.  After that he asked for other suggestions.
    I suggested the IIT parking lot at 35th and State and I said there would be enough room to mass the large number of people they said would come.
    Someone pointed out there was an overpass we would have to walk through and it might be dangerous.  Mr. Davis made a comment at that and then I modified that plan and said, "Well, we could mass at Comiskey Park that night."

MR. FORAN: Did anyone make any response to that suggestion?

THE WITNESS: Yes.  There was somebody in the room---I think it was Irv Bock, he said the Sox were playing a night game so we couldn't use that area.
    After that Mr. Davis began to talk about other things that would happen during the convention.

MR. FORAN: Go ahead.  What did he say?

THE WITNESS: He said on the twenty-seventh there would be many small demonstrations throughout the city.  He said the purpose of these was to stretch the police force out.  He suggested that in one area we could have a nonviolent demonstration and in another area we could have a very militant demonstration, and this would keep the police busy all day.  And he also mentioned having a mill-in on Tuesday and Wednesday.

MR. FORAN: Did he describe what a mill-in was?

THE WITNESS: He said a mill-in would be to get anywhere from fifty to a hundred thousand people into the Loop, and then these people would go through the Loop and they would try and disrupt it.  He said, "We would block cars driving down the street, we would block people coming and going out of buildings, we would stop people from walking down the street.  We would run through stores.  We would smash windows and generally try and shut the Loop down."

MR. FORAN: All right.  Go ahead.  What else was said?

THE WITNESS: He talked about a rock festival that was planned on the twenty-fifth.  He said, "We are going to invite the McCarthy kids, the young delegates and children of prominent people that would be here for the Convention." He said "We would lure them here with music and sex." Then he said, "We will keep the people there after eleven o'clock because we will keep the bands going."

MR. FORAN: Now, calling your attention to August 15 in the afternoon, where were you?

THE WITNESS: I was in Lincoln Park.

MR. FORAN: Were any of the defendants present?

THE WITNESS: Rennie Davis was present and Tom Hayden was present.

MR. FORAN: Do you remember any other persons that were present other than Mr. Davis and Mr. Hayden?

THE WITNESS: Yes.  Ben Radford was there, Dwayne Oklepek, I was, of course, there, Dave Baker was there.  I think there were five of us there.  Irv Bock was there.

MR. FORAN: What occurred?

THE WITNESS: Ben Radford said to Davis, "I saw one of those jeeps and it looked like they are going to string out barbed wire in front of us." Davis said, "Is there any way we can stop it?" And I said, "Yes, we could set up a grappling hook and a rope and throw it into the wire and that would snap it." Mr. Davis said, "That's a good idea.  We'll use it if they use the jeeps." Then we formed up in a snake dance practice and began to snake dance.

MR. FORAN: What occurred after that?

THE WITNESS: Well, a man from CBS asked if he could photograph the snake dance.  Davis said, "Well, there aren't too many of us here today and we just started practicing and we aren't in that good shape, so if you come back next week when we have more people, it will be more impressive when we have practiced it and you can have the exclusive rights to film it."

MR. FORAN: What did you do then?

THE WITNESS: I drove a few people down to Mobilization.

MR. FORAN: What occurred when you arrived?

THE WITNESS: We sat around for a minute or two and then Davis said, "Well, we are going to start the meeting now."

MR. FORAN: Were any of the defendants present at that meeting?

THE WITNESS: Yes.  Davis and Hayden.  Dave Baker was there, and Richard Bosciano.

MR. FORAN: Was there a conversation at that meeting?

THE WITNESS: Yes, there was.  Mr. Davis made a comment that we should have a different attitude toward police than troops.  Mr. Davis said the Federal troops from Fort Bragg will be brought in and that we should be very nice to these people, we shouldn't harass them or provoke them, we should just try and organize them, show them that they are doing the wrong thing.
    Then he said the second group would be the National Guard.  He said the National Guard is only---well, he said, "They are only a bunch of fucking draft-dodgers anyway," and that we shouldn't provoke them that much, we should talk to them and try to get them to join our side.
    He said the last groups would be the Chicago police.  He said, "We all know what bastards they are anyway, and that we can't avoid a confrontation with them, so we are going to harass them. provoke them, and we are going to keep this up through the whole Convention, and that should be our attitude toward the police, we should do it whenever we get a chance."

MR. FORAN: Calling your attention to Saturday, August 17, in the afternoon, where were you?

THE WITNESS: I was in Grant Park that afternoon.

MR. FORAN: Would you name some of the persons who were present?

THE WITNESS: John Froines was there, Tom Hayden, Ben Radford, a person by the name of Shaughnessy from the Chicago area draft resisters.

MR. FORAN: Was there a conversation at that time?

THE WITNESS: Yes, there was.  Radford said it was going to be rough going on the march on the twenty-eighth.  He said, "We'll be going through many hostile areas, and even if we had a permit, we'd have a problem marching through there.
    Hayden said, "That's true, and we might not even have a march that day, but no matter what happens, we're going to have a vigil at the Aniphitheatre that night."
    He said that the vigil people should bring enough food and water to last for five or six hours, and that we'd wait there until the candidate was nominated and then we'd use a snake dance to leave that area.

MR. FORAN: Do you recall anything else being said?

THE WITNESS: Yes.  Someone suggested to Mr. Hayden that if we don't have the march, we could have a mill-in.
    Hayden said, "We're going to think about that.  It's a good suggestion.  We'll get all the people we could, upwards to a hundred thousand people, and go through the Loop, run into stores, keep people from coming out of their office buildings to go home, stop cars on the street, stop people from walking down the street, and even break windows."

MR. FORAN: Do you recall anything further being said at that meeting?

THE WITNESS: To the best of my recollection, I don't.

MR. FORAN: Now, calling your attention to the twentieth of August, 1968, in the afternoon, where were you?

THE WITNESS: 'Well, I walked into Lincoln Park, and there were people standing around, and a small marshals' meeting happened that day.  John Froines and Lee Weiner
were there.

MR. FORAN: Now, what was said, Mr. Witness?

THE WITNESS: Well, at this meeting Lee Weiner said that we were going to have the march on the twenty-eighth, and we are going to work on the march route.  He said that we'd have communications set up between marshals and that we'd have scouts out ahead of the marshals that would relay information back.  He said that the marshals would probably wear helmets.  Everyone in the group agreed that they should.  Then Terry Gross said, "Also, we're going to have flares, and we're going to have those lighted." He said these could be used as a weapon to keep anyone away from the marchers.  Someone said---I think it was John Froines---he said they'd burn at about 4,000 degrees Fahrenheit and would be very effective in keeping anyone away from the marchers.  Everyone liked the idea.

MR. FORAN: Now, what occurred then?

THE WITNESS: Well, this meeting broke up, and about ten minutes later we went into another meeting.

MR. FORAN: Were any of the defendants present?

THE WITNESS: Yes.  Weiner and Froines were at this meeting.  So was Abbie Hoffman.

MR. FORAN: Do you see Mr. Hoff man here in the courtroom.


MR. FORAN: Would you step down and point him out, please.

THE WITNESS: Mr. Hoffman is sitting with the leather vest on, the shirt-he just shot me with his finger.  His hair is very unkempt.
    Lee Weiner talked about the march on the twenty-eighth.  He said that people should get in shape for it and they should practice the snake dance.
    After that, Abbie Hoffman was telling everyone that he had gotten a book from one of the news companies that was here that listed all the delegates' hotel numbers, the hotels they were staying in and their room numbers, and he said he was going to pass this out, he was going to mimeograph it so that everybody could have a copy of it and that if people wanted to harass a delegate, they could go there at night or three or four in the morning and harass that person.  He said that it was a good thing that everybody should have it so they could go around and find the delegates.

THE COURT: Mr. Foran, I think we have reached a point where we will recess for the morning session.

(jury excused)
(court in recess)
(jury enters)

THE COURT: You may continue, sir, with the witness.

ABBIE HOFFMAN: There are around fourteen marshals.

MR. RUBIN: Military state.

MR. KUNSTLER: We have an army of marshals here in the back of the room, and I think that is not necessary and gives an aura to this trial which it shouldn't have.
    Look at them, your Honor.  You can see one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight men there.

THE COURT: I think, if you don't mind, the marshals will look after security in this courtroom.

MR. KUNSTLER: I know, but the jury sees this, your Honor.  It gives a false impression to the jury.

THE COURT: Yes.  Yes, they do.  The jury heard what went on this morning also.  I can't help that.

MR. FORAN: Your Honor, I object to all the statements made by Mr. Kunstler as improper.

THE COURT: I sustain the objection, and I wish you would proceed with the direct examination of this witness which I directed earlier.

MR. FORAN: Now, calling your attention to Monday, the twenty-sixth of August, in the afternoon, where were you?

THE WITNESS: I was in Lincoln Park, just south of the fieldhouse.

MR. FORAN: Were you alone, or were you with someone?

THE WITNESS: No, I was with John Froines and Lee Weiner, and there were other people I don't recall.

MR. FORAN: Now, was there a conversation at that time?

THE WITNESS: Yes, there was.  John Froines said, "The marshals acted as better street fighters than they did controlling the crowd.  Last night showed that we can fight in the street." Froines said people should break into small groups and that these groups should be violent and that people should tonight leave the park and run into Old Town, disable cars and smash windows.  Everyone in the group agreed with this, and they called these groups affinity groups.

MR. FORAN: Now, what happened then?

THE WITNESS: Well, during the conversation Hayden and Wolfe Lowenthal approached the group.  Hayden said, "I'm going to be arrested," and then two officers
in plainclothes came up and arrested him.  They also arrested Wolfe Lowenthal.

MR. FORAN: Then what happened?

THE WITNESS: I saw John Froines yelling at a police officer.  Someone in the group said that the Legal Defense Committee should be called, and myself and Rowan Berman placed a call to the Legal Defense Committee.
MR. FORAN: All right.  Now, calling your attention to late that night, near midnight, where were you?

THE WITNESS: Myself and two other people were walking out of the Conrad Hilton, and as we were walking out, the doorman was talking to Rennie Davis, Tom Hayden, and two other people.

MR. FORAN: What was the conversation?

THE WITNESS: The doorman said they couldn't enter the hotel, and either Davis or Hayden said, "Well, we are going to go visit some friends in a room."
    The doorman said, "I'm sorry, I can't let you in."
    At this point a Chicago police officer in uniform came over and asked what the problem was.
    The doorman said he couldn't let these people in.  The police officer asked Davis and Hayden to move away from the door.

MR. FORAN: Where did you go?

THE WITNESS: We walked out to Balbo and then walked east on Balbo to the corner which is Michigan Avenue.  Then we crossed Balbo walking north.

MR. FORAN: What occurred when you were crossing the street, if anything?

THE WITNESS: When we were crossing the street, Davis and Hayden were behind me.  I heard a shout and I turned around and Hayden was facing a police officer in plainclothes.

MR. FORAN: And what occurred?

THE WITNESS: After that Hayden was walking away, the police officer grabbed him and Hayden went limp and fell to the ground.

MR. FORAN: And what happened then?

THE WITNESS: He tried to roll away and the officer restrained him.  Davis said, "Look what they're doing to Tom.  Let's do something about it."

MR. FORAN: And what, if anything, occurred?

THE WITNESS: I remember the person next to me taking about two steps forward and there were some Chicago police officers there and they pushed him back along with the rest of the group and moved us north on Michigan.

MR. FORAN: Now, calling your attention to the evening of the next day, Tuesday, August 27, where were you on that day?

THE WITNESS: I was in Lincoln Park also that day.  There was a Free Huey rally going on.

MR. FORAN: How many people were attending that particular rally?

THE WITNESS: I would say a thousand or two thousand people.

MR. FORAN: Did you recognize any of the speakers?

THE WITNESS: I heard Jerry Rubin give a speech, Phil Ochs sang and then a person who identified himself as Bobby Seale spoke.

MR. SEALE: I object to that because my lawyer is not here.  I have been denied my right to defend myself in this courtroom.  I object to this man's testimony against me because I have not been allowed my constitutional rights.

THE COURT: I repeat to you, sir, you have a lawyer.  Your lawyer is Mr. Kunstler, who represented to the Court that he represents you.

MR. SEALE: He does not represent me.

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, I will excuse you.

 (jury excused)

THE COURT: Now you just keep on this way and---

MR. SEALE: Keep on what?  Keep on what?

THE COURT: Just sit down.

MR. SEALE: Keep on what?  Keep on getting denied my constitutional rights?

THE COURT: Will you be quiet?

MR. SEALE: Now I still object.  I object because you know it is wrong.  You denied me my right to defend myself.  You think black people don't have a mind.  Well, we got big minds, good minds, and we know how to come forth with constitutional rights, the socalled constitutional rights.  I am not going to be quiet.  I am talking in behalf of my constitutional rights, man, in behalf of myself, that's my constitutional right to talk in behalf of my constitutional rights.

THE COURT: Bring in the jury, Mr. Marshal.

MR. SEALE: I still object to that man testifying against me without my lawyer being here, without me having a right to defend myself.
    Black people ain't supposed to have a mind?  That's what you think.  We got a body and a mind.  I wonder, did you lose yours in the Superman syndrome comic book stories?  You must have to deny us our constitutional rights.

THE COURT: Are you getting all of this, Miss Reporter?

MR. SEALE: I hope she gets it all.

(jury enters)

THE COURT: I note that your counsel has remained quiet during your dissertation.

MR. SEALE: You know what?  I have no counsel here.  I fired that lawyer before that jury heard anything and you know it.  That jury hasn't heard all of the motions you denied behind the scenes.  How you tricked that juror out of that stand there by threatening her with that jive letter that you know darned well I didn't send, which is a lie.  And they blame me every time they are being kept from their loved ones and their homes.  They blame me every time they come in the room.  And I never sent those letters, you know it.

THE COURT: Please continue with the direct examination.

MR. FORAN: Now, later on that evening, about ten o'clock, where were you?

THE WITNESS: I was in Lincoln Park.

MR. FORAN: Now what were you doing there?

THE WITNESS: When I first arrived in Lincoln Park, I was walking through the crowd.  I came upon John Froines, Marilyn Katz, Terry Gross and another person.  Marilyn Katz showed us a group of guerrilla nails she had.

MR. FORAN: Would you describe them?

MR. WEINGLASS: If Your Honor please, I am going to have to object at this point.  The prosecution is attempting to bring into this case what the prosecution attempted to bring into the case in United States vs.  Benjamin Spock.*
    What I am referring to is they are trying to bring into this case conduct and statements of third persons who are not here in court and cannot defend themselves and arc not here for purposes of cross-examination.
    What the government is attempting to do now is to show Mr. Froines' intent to be part of an illicit conspiracy by introducing evidence of what a third person has done or said and that the Government cannot do.  I object to it.

THE COURT: Mr. Foran.

MR. FORAN: Your Honor, of course Mr. Weinglass misstates the Spock case.  The Spock case didn't have anything at all to do with statements made by persons in the presence of the defendant.  In one instance the defendant is present-that is in this instance; in the Spock case the defendant was not present.  It is a clear distinction in the law.  The case is clearly not applicable to this evidence.

MR. WEINGLASS: May I repeat what I read from the Spock case?

THE COURT: Don't repeat.  Don't repeat.  I listened to you very carefully.
    Mr. Weinglass, your objection is not well taken, sir.  The objection will be overruled.

MR. FORAN: Would you describe what guerrilla nails are?

THE WITNESS: She had two types, One was a cluster of nails that were sharpened at both ends, and they were fastened in the center.  It looked like they were welded or soldered.  She said these were good for throwing or putting underneath tires.
    She showed another set that was the same type of nails sharpened at both ends, but they were put through styrofoam cylinder.  There was a weight put through the middle of it which was another nail, and they were all put together through the styrofoam with something that looked like liquid solder.

MR. FORAN: To whom was she showing these objects?

THE WITNESS: Showing them to everyone in the group, including John Froines.
MR. FORAN: Was anything further said at that time?

THE WITNESS: Yes.  John Froines said he liked both of them and that he wondered if we could get some more.

MR. FORAN: Now, I will call vour attention to the next morning, Wednesday morning, the twenty-eighth of August.  Where were you?

THE WITNESS: I was at 407 South Dearborn, National MOBE headquarters.

MR. FORAN: Would you name some of the people that were there?

THE WITNESS: Well, there was John Froines and Lee Weiner, Marilyn Katz, myself.  Let's see, David Dellinger was there.  Tom Hayden, Rennie Davis.  There were other people I don't remember their names.

MR. FORAN: All right.  What was said and by whom?

THE WITNESS: Well, the meeting started off with Davis saying, "We're going to have a rally today, and we need some speakers for it." He said, "I've been thinking about having some of the people that were injured speak, and we could get them up and have them talk about how their injuries happened."
    Hayden didn't like this idea.  He said, "in a revolution you expect injuries, and those injuries aren't supposed to be displayed.  The injured people shouldn't be displayed.  They should be accepted, and the struggle should go on."
    Davis after that said, "Well OK, Tom.  We won't do it.  But how about you speaking?"
    Hayden said, "Yeah, I'll speak."
    People were throwing out names.  I remember somebody saving to let Jerry Rubin speak because he gave a good speech on Tuesday night.  They also said Tom Neumann from New York was a very violent speaker.
   Then Dellinger made a comment.  He said, "It looks like we're not going to have the march to the Amphitheatre today," and he said, "We should have a march anyway, and we know it's not going to make it, but we should try it anyway." He said they could use the march as a diversion to get people out of Lincoln Park.

MR. FORAN: Out of which park?

THE WITNESS: Out of Grant Park, I'm sorry.

MR. FORAN: Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: Davis said, "That's a good idea.  We can have your march start, and we'll use that as a diversion.  We'll only get about a hundred people to go to that.  Then we can pull people out of Grant Park and we can either have a rally across from the Hilton or we can just go into the Loop and have the mill-in."

 MR. FORAN: Then did you talk to anyone further at the meeting?

 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.  I had a conversation with John Froines.

 MR. DELLINGER: Mr. Foran, do you believe one word of that?

MR. FORAN: Your Honor, may the record show the comment from the defendant Dellinger, your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.  Mr. Dellinger has made several comments from time to time.  The record may indeed show--

MR. DELLINGER: I asked Mr. Foran if he could possibly believe one word of that.  I don't believe the witness believes it.  I don't believe Mr. Foran believes it.

THE COURT: And continue to take his words.  I admonish you, sir, not to interrupt this trial by your conversation or your remarks.  You have a very competent lawyer representing you.  You are not permitted to speak while he represents you.

MR. FORAN: Would you state the conversation that you had with Mr. Froines.

THE WITNESS: Yes.  I said, "John, I saw you out in the street last night near Wells and Eugene."
    He said, "Yeah, I was out there."
    And I said, "You were doing pretty good."
    And he said, "Yeah, we hit a couple of cops' cars."
    Then he said, "You know, the marshals are better street fighters than they are at controlling the crowd.  It really worked out nice."

MR. FORAN: Now, calling your attention to the next day, Thursday, August 29, in the afternoon, where were you?

THE WITNESS: I was at Grant Park, sitting on the grass, across the street from the Conrad Hilton.

MR. FORAN: Did you see anyone that you knew?

THE WITNESS: Well, in that area I saw Hayden and Davis, John Froines, Lee Weiner, Craig Shimabukuro, and many other people there.

MR. FORAN: Did you have a conversation with any of them?

THE WITNESS: I had a conversation with Lee Weiner and John Froines.

MR. FORAN: What was said, Mr. Frapolly?

THE WITNESS: Well, John Froines was talking about how he had purchased butyric acid and that he used the butyric acid in hotels and restaurants the night before.  He said it really cleared out some of the restaurants.  He said butyric acid smells like vomit.
    Then Shimabukuro asked Weiner if I was all right, and Weiner said yes.  Then Shimabukuro proceeded to tell me about some plans that were being set up for that night.  He said I was to meet in the middle level of the Grant Park garage and that I wasn't supposed to bring anybody with me or tell anybody about what we were going to do.  We were supposed to meet there about 7:30 and that we were going to fire bomb it.  He said that the materials needed would be bought by someone and that I should be there at 7:30.

MR. FORAN: Now, do you recall anything else being said at that time?

THE WITNESS: Yes.  John Froines said he had four cans of gasoline and that he didn't know exactly how he was going to use them.  He said he would either use the gasoline tonight or use the butyric acid.

MR. FORAN: Now, calling your attention to the next day, Friday, August 30, where were you?

THE WITNESS: Friday, August 30, I was in Downers Grove,.  Illinois.  There was a farm that National Mobilization was having a picnic at that day.

MR. FORAN: Who were some of the people that were there?  Would you name them?

THE WITNESS: Well, Davis and Hayden, Froines, Weiner, Vernon Grizzard, I think Richard Bosciano was there, Irv Bock.

MR. FORAN: Was there a conversation at that time?

THE WITNESS: Yes, there was.  John Froines said, "Did anybody see the article in the Tribune this morning?" And he said, "There's got to be a spy in here." He said, "They know too much about what's going on," and he said he had given some butyric acid to some girls the night before and that they got caught, and he said, "That spy's got to be real high tip in National Mobilization, and if I get my hands on him, I'll fix him." Lee Weiner said when he had gotten to the underground garage that night, he was walking down there, and he said he saw some men---he said they were police---questioning Craig Shimabukuro, and when he saw this, he left.  He said he didn't know if Shimabukuro was arrested or on his way back to California or where, because no one had seen him that day.
    Then Froines started talking about how he purchased the butyric acid.  He said he went to Walgreen's, and as he was in Walgreen's he was smelling hair remover.  He said here was a brand his mother used when he was a kid, and it was very foul smelling, and after about 15 minutes in Walgreen's smelling all different brands of hair remover, the saleslady became rather suspicious, and Froines left.  Then he said he got the idea to use butyric acid.
    He said he went to Central Scientific, and when he bought the acid he had to show three different types of identification, and he had to sign a receipt for it.  Then he went and got containers for it, and then he said he gave the acid to the girls to use on the night before, and he said they got a kick out of using it.
    After that, Froines talked about setting up an underground chemist network.  He says there has to be a need for a biochemist in the movement, and then he started talking about how tear gas was made.  He said they could get together and they could have the formulas for making tear gas, Molotov cocktails, Mace, and other devices.  He thought it was a very good idea.

MR. FORAN: Do you recall anything else being said at that meeting?

THE WITNESS: No, I think my recollection is exhausted.

MR. FORAN: That's all, your Honor.

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