TELEPHONIC INTERVIEW BETWEEN GEORGE FREEMAN, LAEL RUBIN AND
ROBERT HILLARY FEBRUARY 5, 1986 4:30 p.m. D.A. TAPE #86-138
LINK
TO AUDIO FILE OF INTERVIEW [In this interview, Lael Rubin discusses
with George Freeman securing the dismissal of charges he
faces for illegal possession of a firearm. The
violation of his probation could result in Freeman
returning to prison. Freeman had Rubin had
previously discussed his providing key testimony against
Buckey McMartin, based on an alleged conversation he had
with McMartin in prison. Almost certainly, the
conversation, in which McMartin was said to have
admitted to molesting children and working with
pornographers to distribute images of children, never
happened.] - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - RUBIN: Hey,
George,
a voice from the past. FREEMAN: How you
doin? LR: How are you? GF: Terrible, got
a cold. LR: What? GF: Got a cold,
and no teeth. LR: What happened
to your teeth? GF: Ah, long
story, long. LR: Yeah, I can
tell from the way you're talking. GF: I can't talk
too good. I
don't have no bottom teeth. LR: Did you get
in a fight? GF: Yeah. LR: Oh, George. GF: (can’t make
out) LR: Oh, God. GF: So, what's
happening? LR: Well... GF: Dvorak called
my mom, you know, and said to get a hold of him. And
he was gone from work. LR: I see. Well,
he's moved around a little bit, but maybe she had an
updated phone number. GF: Yeah, he's
out at Wayside. LR: Oh, he's out
there, okay. GF: Yeah. LR: You know,
we've been, we’ve been looking for you. GF: I know. LR: What's it
gonna be? GF: What? LR: Well, are we
gonna see you? GF: Well, yeah.
I've been watching the news and stuff and everything. Everybody
says I'm in California, I'm in Arizona, I'm in
Tennessee, Mexico, Texas, and Canada, and shit, you
know. But, anyhow, it seem like every time I go
somewhere or move man, somebody always knows where I'm
at so I just never told nobody nothin. LR: Yeah GF: I just moved,
I just kept watchin the news and I see you guys
dismissed the case on them other people. You know,
them people been doin it so long, man, they're just
gonna keep their mouths shut and try to beat it the
best way they can.
You know. LR: Well,
that's true, and one of the problems is that the whole
case got
dragged – - and that, we lost a lot of kids. GF: I know it.
LR: Um. GF: That, and you
know, and then when your boss, your new boss says
that, ah you know, they didn't really need me, the
heck with it, I just left, shit. LR: Well, I
don't know that anybody... GF: My
probation officer wanted to violate me and I didn't
feel like goin to prison. LR: I don't
know that anybody ever said that, I don't know where
you get that from. GF: My
probation officer, she told me that. LR: Do you
believe your probation officer? GF: She's got
the power to violate me. LR: I know,
but haven't you had problems with her in the past? GF: Yeah. LR: So what's
it gonna be with the deal in Fresno? GF: What, the
gun? LR: Yeah. GF: Well,
Dvorak talked to my mom and said he wasn't gonna play
no games or nothing, that he knew somebody he could
talk to, I guess through whoever his sources are and
maybe through you people or your boss or somebody and
try to get that dismissed as long as I stay out of
California, except for to come back here for that
trial, that's all. LR: Well, I
don’t, have you talked to Dvorak,... GF: Nope LR: ...or is that
just what your mom says? GF: That's what
my mom says. I ain't talked to nobody but I know as
soon as I come out there, I'm goin to jail, you know. LR: Well, one of
the things, you know, that I, cause it's been so long
since we've talked, that I have kind of a vague
recollection of is, what the circumstances were that
with that whole gun thing. GF: Well, it was
Diane's car, you know, and my truck broke down and I
borrowed her car. It was about 11:00 at night, and I
was about half drunk and the goddamn gun was sittin
there, her gun was sittin there and between the two
stupid seats. LR: What’s she,
what is the gun doing out in the open? GF: That was her
car. I don't ask... LR: I know, but
what she GF: She was
working in a club where she handled a lot of money, at
a big country club, golf course country club. LR: Yeah GF: With a lot of
rich people. She had a lot of money there, so she
bought her a gun, and she had it at work. Well she just
normally put it in her car or in her purse, you know,
and that's all the reason why it was there. LR: And that was
the story that you told the P.D. up there? GF: Yeah, that's
what I told my probation lady. LR: Yeah. GF: And the
public defender, I told him it was supposed to have
been used in a murder, and we got it from this black
guy. They said it was used in a murder, and I figured
I could take that and find out what murder and all
that shit and use it to kind of help my probation shit
out, you know. LR: Yeah. GF: To try and
get a transfer or something. But nothing fucking
worked out, it seemed like everything just flew in my
face, you know. LR: Well, is that
where Diane got the gun from? GF: Yeah, we got
it from this black guy. LR: Where’s Diane
these days? GF: She’s dyin,
she’s down to 79 pounds. LR: You're
kidding. GF: No. LR: They never
could do anything for her? GF: They give her
eight months to a year and a half to live. They told
her they can't do no surgery on her cause as soon as
they opened
her up, it'd just spread all through her body. LR: Oh, God. GF: She got
cancer in both breasts, now she's got it up in her
lymph nodes, underneath her left arm. She can't
move her left arm hardly. And, let's see what else. LR: Is she with
you? GF: Yeah. LR: Oh, God. GF: Yeah, I take
care of her, I love her, so what the hell? I've been
workin ever since I left, you know. LR: Have you? GF: Yeah. LR: Well, I tell
you George, it's the gun charge that really worries
us. GF: Yeah, I know
it. But Dvorak said, see, the judge up there in
Kingland are, what the hell is the name of that town? LR: It's not
Kingland, it's King... GF: Kingsberg. LR: Yeah. GF: Okay, he said
that if I could get one of you people to call or
somebody to call and verify that I was helpin them
kids out, he'd go along with it and dismiss the damn
thing. But I couldn't get nobody to call. LR: Well, you
never talked to us. GF: I talked to... LR: Bill? GF: Yeah, and
Tim. They said, well every time you get into trouble
you always call us. I said, hey, I only asked you guys
one time and that was for a ticket, that I was in
court, and I couldn't be in court on a ticket, and
then my daughter come up with that bullshit. LR: Yeah. GF: I said,
that’s all I ever, I never asked you guys to help me
out of robbery or forging checks or nothing, you know.
And here you're telling me, why, hell, every time I
get in trouble I call. And that was bullshit, every
time I call is cause I had to move or something, you
know. I always give you guys my address. LR: Well, um... GF: I hope I stay
on the phone long enough so you guys can trace the
call. LR: I don't have
any idea how to do any of that, George. GF: Yeah, it's
okay. LR: I'm not
interested in doing that. I was interested in, I was
interested in talking to you. You know, I know that
you’ve been talking, you know, you called Dan Layton.
And I know... GF: I haven't
talked to him -- I talked to... LR: He’s
concerned, I know he's concerned about you, but, you
know, in the meantime, you know, I can't, I can't feel
through it, through a third person. GF: Well, if I
come back, to go that trial thing. LR: Yeah. GF: I've got to
stay in jail until it clears up, right? So I can clear
that gun charge, or probation, or whatever, right? LR: Well, I think
what you, well, there's a couple things. I mean,
number one, there's a, you know, Judge Bobb issued a
bench warrant for you because you didn't come back. GF: Uh, huh. LR: So there's
that. GF: Uh, huh. LR: But... GF: Yeah, well
look at what uh, that goddamn lawyer did. He gave up
transcripts on a... LR: I know. GF: ...court
ordered case, and she didn’t do shit to him. LR: That’s no,
she fined him. GF: Oh, yeah,
well, she's gonna what, put me in jail for contempt of
court... LR: No, no, no...well... GF: ...for 30
days, or 6 months, or a year? LR: Well, the
point is you didn't come back. GF: Well, the
point is he gave away... LR: I know, I
know... GF: ...stuff that wasn’t
(unclear) LR: I know. GF: And I'm
not trying to argue with you about it, but... LR: No, I know
you’re not, I know
you're not George, but what, I tell you what. What we
need to do is that we need to talk to the people up in
Kingsberg or Fresno and find out what the story is and
what their reports say... GF: Uh, huh. LR: And... GF: Well it says,
just like I told, I told the judge, I went
into his chambers and talked to him about it and told
him, well, me and her got the gun from this guy that
was supposed to have been used in a murder and I told
the cops from Fresno the same thing and I said which
one, I don't know. LR: OK, who was,
what's the name of your public defender up
there? GF: Oh, shit,
God, I don't remember. It’s been a long, it’s been a
year ago. LR: Do
remember the name of the judge? GF: Aw, shit,
wait a minute...Diane,...(in the distance
a female replies “Yeah”)... LR:
(whispering to RH) Where do you think he is? RH: I think he
said 79 pounds, I wonder if he meant 29 pounds. LR: No, no, no,
she weighs 79 pounds. RH: Oh, I see. LR: (laughs) No,
she's real sick. RH: Kinda hard to
understand. GF: I can’t, I
have to look it up, I don't know where the hell it's
at, in one of them boxes some place. LR: Alright, I'll
tell you what. What we need to do is I think Tim
called up there to try and get a copy of the police
report. GF: Uh, huh. LR: And... GF: Well, Highway
Patrol’s the one that stopped me, for going too
fast... LR: Yeah. GF: ...and being
drunk, and they said, why did you pass the whatcha
call it and see the box of 38 shells in the back, you
know. LR: So, did they
charge you with drunk driving too? GF: Yep. LR: Okay, we
gotta, we gotta get a copy of the report, and we gotta
figure out who your lawyer was and... GF: He's centered
in Fresno. LR: Okay, and
talk to him and get his assessment of what the judge
would do... GF: Well, see,
the judge, I talked to the judge in the chambers with
the public defender... LR: No, no, no, I
know, I mean but we have to talk to him, but I think
there’s gonna need to be some kind of statement from
Diane, you know, in writing or whatever... GF: Yeah, it was
her car, it was registered in her name... LR: That it was
her car, and that it was her gun and she used it for
her employment. GF: Yeah, well
see, that's what we was startin to say, but she got,
we got the gun from this guy who told us it was used
in a homicide, you know, and we figured, me and her
figured well, if they could, you know, find out what
homicide it was used in, how long ago or whatever;
well, I could trade that, and kinda get my probation
shit, but __(?)___ found out the guy stole the gun
from some girl. LR: Okay, but you
never told them that it was Diane's gun? GF: At first,
yeah, then I told the truth about it. LR: Well, was it
Diane's gun or not? GF: No. I told
him that from the get go, that's what I'm trying to
tell you. I told him it was her gun from the get go.
Then after we got to jail, then I explained it to
them. You know, it wasn't my gun, it wasn't her gun,
we got it from this nigger, and it was supposed to
have been used in a murder, that's what he told us, so
we traded him an old beat up shot gun for the 38, and
he gave us the 38. And I tried to get a hold of
Dvorak, but Dvorak was on vacation in December for
Christmas. I couldn't get a hold of him, to see what
he could do, just do it, you know. Then I got a hold
of somebody and I did a tape thing on somebody in
Fresno that's related to the Mafia about wantin’ to
hire somebody to kill his wife... LR: Yeah. GF: ...and got
the guy on tape and all that stuff, and he said, well,
that other guy knows about it, so I don't think I'm
going to kill my old lady right now, and all that
stuff, but at least he's on tape. But, you know, I
couldn't get no help out of that shit, you know. To me
I'm just a walking dead guy, you know. LR: You know what
George? You
gotta, I think you gotta get Diane to write out a
statement. GF: And have it
notarized, huh? LR: Yep, and send
it here. GF: Okay, well,
wait a minute, bein’ how I haven't been around that
neighborhood in so long, what the hell's the address? LR: Okay, it's
210... GF: Okay, 2-10. LR: West
Temple... GF: Temple?
T-E... LR: T-E-M-P-L-E.
GF: T-E-M-P-L-E? LR: Right. GF: Okay. LR: D.A.'s
Office... GF: Uh, huh. LR: Los
Angeles... GF: Uh, huh. LR: 9-0-0-1-2. GF: 9-0-0-1-2.
And no name on it, or your name? LR: Yeah, well,
yeah, put my name on it? GF: How do you
spell your name? LR: L-A-E-L
R-U-B-I-N GF: R-U-B..I-N? LR: Right. GF: Oh, like the
Rubin sandwich? LR: Right, well
sort of, that Reuben sandwich is spelled differently. GF: Uh,huh(laughs). But anyhow,
you know. LR: Okay, I tell
you what, why don't you do that and, you know, have
her write it out and have it notarized and put it in
the mail, and in the meantime, we'll get this report
from, because I know Tim called for it, we'll get this
report from Fresno and try and track down the public
defender and find out what the story is and then... GF: Well see, at
the time he said well if he could get a hold of
somebody in L.A., but Hell, everybody was on like
Christmas holiday.
LR: Well... GF: He couldn't
get a hold of anybody. LR: There were
people here. GF: Huh? LR: There were
people here. I don’t know... GF: Well, there
are people there but there's nobody, like, you know,
you or your boss or somebody, and Dvorak's gone and
all that shit, so, I you know, just one thing led to
another and then all of a sudden I found out I had a
warrant issued for me, I went... LR: Well... GF: So I just
moved. LR: I don’t know,
I was... GF: It’s like
that crap in San Fernando about me tampering with
boating crap. LR: What's that? GF: I don't know,
somebody even come up with a warrant, and showed my
son they had a warrant for my arrest from the FEDS for
tampering with boats, and I don't even boat. LR: (laughs)
You're kidding. GF: Yeah. LR: How did you,
what you, your son told you about that? GF: Yeah, my son,
Marty. LR: Oh, God. GF: I said, what,
are you kidding? They said, well, you were here in San
Fernando, I said bullshit, I wasn't even there. I can
prove exactly where I was at all the time I been gone. LR: Alright, do
me a favor, get that in the mail and why don't you
give me a call, give us a week. GF: Okay. LR: And today's
Wednesday, why don't you give us a call next Wednesday
or Thursday. GF: Alright. LR: And we'll see
what we find out. GF: What time do
you usually leave your office? Are you there after 3,
or 4, or 5, or what? LR: Yeah, I'm
usually, depending on what day it is, I'm here till,
I’m for sure here till 5:00, sometimes later than
that. GF: Okay, cause
me and Diane, we're moving right now. LR: Yeah. GF: We have to
relocate, you know, because certain people found out
my real name ‘cause I accidentally lost my wallet, you
know. LR: Yeah. GF: And it had my
real driver's license in it, you know. LR: Well, if
Wednesday or Thursday isn't good, make it Friday, but
give me a call at the end of the week. And if I'm not
here you can talk to Bill, or Tim, or Bob Hillary. GF: Okay, yeah, I
will. I'll call Wednesday, probably around five
o’clock. Something like (unclear) LR: Okay, great. GF: Four or five,
five o’clock. LR: Okay. GF: You gonna be
there about four? LR: Sure. GF: four or five? LR: Perfect. GF: Alright. LR: Okay, take
care of yourself. GF: I will. LR: And say hello
to Diane. GF: I will. LR: And I'm glad
you called, George. GF: Alright. I tried to
get a hold of you a couple of times but you've never
been around, so... LR: You didn't
leave any message. GF: I know, I
never do, I just ask for you. I don't wanna leave
messages, I don't wanna talk to nobody but you. LR: I know, but
you could at least let me know that you called. GF: Yeah, shoot,
but I didn't want nobody to know who I was. LR: Well, how
about, what was the name you used, Jerry what? GF: Freeman LR: Oh. GF: Jerry Walker. LR: Jerry Walker.
GF: Yeah that’s
my (unclear) name. LR: You could
leave the name Jerry Walker and then I know that you
called. GF: Okay. LR: Okay? GF: Alright. LR: Talk to you
next week. GF: Okay. LR: Thanks for
calling. GF: Bye. LR: Bye. LR: Bob? RH: mm,huh. .
.hang on a second. (Recording
stops) |