TESTIMONY OF PHILIP KLINGENSMITH IN THE
FIRST TRIAL OF JOHN D. LEE
July 23-24, 1875
Witness:
At Q: How
long had you previously resided there? A: I
believe from '52 - '51 or '52. Q: Do you
know where the Mountain Meadows are located? A: Yes,
sir. Q: Describe
to the jury where the Mountain Meadows are located. A: Located
about 45 miles (between that and 50) from Q: In what
county? A: Now,
in Q: In
what territory? A: In A: I
am. Q: Were
you acquainted with him in 1857? A: At
what time? Q: In
1857. A: Yes,
sir. I was there at the massacre. Q: I want you to state to the jury what you
know in
relation to the massacre and about what time it was. A: As near as I can recollect, it was in
September. I
can't tell you the day or the date. I think it was toward the
last-probably
about the middle. Q: That year was
it? A: It was in '57.
Q: Won't you relate to the jury the
circumstances, as
you know them, in relation to the massacre of which you speak. Just
commence in
your own way and relate the circumstances. A: The first that I know of the company
coming in? Q: Yes, sir, Defense counsel:
We suggest that
a more limited question be put to the witness. Prosecution:
State what you know
about it. Defense:
[He] can't give any testimony except about John D. Lee. Prosecution:
Go on and state the details. Defense:
If he goes on and narrates in his own way, we will have no chance to
object
until the objectionable matter has gone to the jury. Prosecution:
It is the first time in the progress of the trial that the defendant
has attempted
to direct the manner of the prosecution. Judge-to the
witness: Don't
detail any hearsay matter. Prosecution:
Go on, and state what you know of that massacre, and who were engaged
ill it,
but don't state any hearsay testimony. Witness: I will as far as I know. The first
thing I
shall mention is when I heard of this company coming from Salt Lake. I
heard of
the emigrants coming down here, and learned that the people were
forbidden to
trade with them; that there was a great deal of feeling some way or
other, and
it made me feel, to tell the truth, bad about it when I heard it.
Finally the
company came on to Cedar City and I happened to be down at the little
town.
There is about a mile difference between the two towns. I didn't
at first see
but a few of them-three or four at the mill getting a grist down of
some wheat
they had bought from Mr. Jackson. I went on up home to the upper city.
This was
probably-might have been-Friday. I heard there was some disturbance
through the
emigrants swearing in town. And I heard that John M. Higbee had fined
them. Defense: We don’t
want that
hearsay. Witness: However, let that go as it will, it
don't
make much difference here nor there. This, I think, was about Friday -
if I
remember it must have been about Friday, to the nearest of my
recollection.
This company went on from there, and I still heard rumors that I shall
not say
anything about, now. On Sunday, as was the usual custom of having
meetings -
and President and Council, High Council, Bishop's Council- all the afternoon, and
talking
things and matters over. And directly when the Council met, this thing
came up. A: I was
not in any military order. I was a Bishop. Defense: We object to the statement about the
council.
That is a matter between other parties. Unless the question is put in
another
form, we object to it. Prosecution: We
will connect it. Judge: They
propose to connect
the question with it. Defense: This is not a charge of combination
[conspiracy]: John D. Lee is charged with murder, not with combining
with
a1lybody. If Mr. Lee was not there, it is incompetent. It is your duty
to
connect him with it. Unless you can show that John D. Lee was one of
that
Council, the statement of the proceeding of that Council is
incompetent. Judge: Either party can commence either at
the beginning
or middle or end of their testimony. It is a rule I have been used to
for many
years, and I think it is the best rule. They promised to connect the
defendant
with this. If they don’t, the Court will have to strike it out. Defense:
Your Honor will please note our exception to that ruling, until it
appears that
John D. Lee was a member of that Council, or was present. Prosecution: Go
on and state what
took place at that Council. Witness:
This question of those emigrants, and their destruction, came before us
at that
time; and there was ... Q: Of whom was that Council composed? A: Haight, Higbee, myself - I could not tell
all the
names of them; Morill was there, Ira Allen, and Wesley Willis I think
was
there. A: His
first name is Isaac C. Haight. Q: What occurred? A: This
thing was talked over. Judge: On the
same ground that
they have promised to connect, they may do it by some other witness. Defense:
Exception. Prosecution: Go
on and state what
happened there. Witness: This question came up and there was
some of
the brethren opposed to such a proposition - and when it came to my
turn, I
opposed it. There were others that were opposed to it, too. Haight
jumped up
and broke up the meeting, and went outdoors. Then a proposition was
made there.
The question I asked them was this: what would be the consequences
provided
such a thing should take place. Q: What did they
propose to do? A: They didn't
propose to do
anything particular when this thing was talked about. Q: What was said?
Q: What
was the substance of what was said? Q: For their destruction by whom? A: Their destruction was proposed by the
Indians. I
cannot say positively that the whites were going to do it from there.
Then the
meeting broke up, and on Monday morning, down below the old fort wall
there was
several of us met together, again. Q: Who? A: Isaac C. Haight, Higbee, myself, Joel
White, and I
don't recollect anyone else. The talk came up again about these
emigrants
coming. There they were not yet at Cedar. I got onto the same subject
again,
and opposed it, and asked questions about it, and said for my part I
would like
to see these people go through unmolested. Haight then replied, "you
may
go with Mr. White over to Pinto Creek [a small settlement close to
Mountain
Meadows] with a letter and tell the people there that these people
shall [be
allowed to] go through, and try and pacify the Indians - for that
people to go
through." That is all. Q: Did you
go over there? A: I
did. I went over there. I started in the afternoon. Q: Who
accompanied you? Q: Was that all he said at the time? A: It was all he said at that time. Now,
then, I went
out that evening and got there in the night-past these emigrant's
company at
Iron Springs, five mile outside of Pinto Creek. And the next morning as
they were
drawing out from camp, we passed back and went on our way together back
to
Cedar. Q: How
many of the emigrants were there? A: I
never counted them. There was a good many. Q: Of what
class? A: I
should suppose the train composed of twenty or thirty wagons. Q: About how many
people? A: I could not
tell you. Q: Approximate. A: It
appears as though there was a hundred or more. Q: How
was it with reference to sex and age? A: There
was old men, middle aged men, old women, young women and children. Q: After you passed them, state what
occurred. A: I came on towards home and met a man named
Ira
Allen, beyond where we met Lee about four miles. That was the day
following. We
didn't know what was up, and Ira Allen stated right out... Prosecution: We
will connect Mr.
Allen as one of the conspirators in this affair. Judge:
Go ahead, the objection is overturned. Defense:
Note our exception. Q: Go on,
state what occurred. A: He
said that the doom of the emigrants that went out there was sealed,
that the
die was cast, the doom fixed for their destruction, that John D. Lee
had orders
from headquarters at Parowan to take men - go around below and go out.
He had
orders to go to Pinto Creek and countermand what I and Mr. White had
been to
Pinto Creek and tried to do. Q: What else was
done, then? White lived in the lower town, and I went up
to my
place pretty fatigued from riding. I don't know anything more about
what was
going on. Only about rumors, until about three days afterwards. Then
Haight,
living over at the iron works in a little house, sent down McFarlane
there to
me, to come over there. I went over behind his house. He there told me
this
story. Defense:
We object to anything Mr. Haight may have told this witness. Judge:
Overruled. Defense:
Defendants take
exception. Q: Did he say who gave these orders? A: Yes, sir. I will say, by and by. He said
he came
home in the night with these orders from Co!. Dame that in order to
finish the
massacre they was to decoy them out and to spare nothing but the small
children
that could not tell the tale. That is what he told me. I went down to
the old
town then directly. He told me to go down there, and I happened to come
right
in front of Ira Allen's house. There, John M. Higbee, Ira Allen, and
Charlie
Hopkins were right in front of his dooryard. And as I stepped up, John
Higbee
says, "You are ordered out armed, and equipped as the law directs, to
go
to the Mountain Meadows." And so I went. Defense: If you’re Honor please, this is
another party
that the witness has brought in, and makes statements of John M. Higbee
that
are not connected with Mr. Lee. Judge: I
will overrule the objections on the same grounds as before. Defense:
Exception. Witness:
I went and fitted up, got my animal and gun and ammunition and
went out. Q: Who went with
you? A: Charlie
Hopkins went out with
me, and John M. Higbee, and I think possibly that John Willis went with
a wagon
and Sam McMurdy with a baggage wagon. Q: Where did you go to? A: We started-the rest I cannot remember. We
started
over there, and when we got to Hamblin's ranch in the night-sometime in
the
night-I don't exactly recollect ... Q: Jacob Hamblin's? A: Yes, sir. The ranch was about three miles
this side
of where the emigrants were camped. Well, there was Lee and some
others-not a
great many from the camp, where the general camp was, passed up
further, by a.
spring. When this party that had gone out from Cedar, they composed
quite a
little number of men. Then we began to find out that they [the
emigrants] was
not all killed, as it was represented, while there was a few more ... Defense: We
object to the
statement of individuals. Prosecution: Who do you mean by some? A: Those that I mentioned. I can mention some
names
that was there. There was John D. Lee, John M. Higbee, myself - there
was
Hopkins, Ira Allen, and there was another man, died since, Wiley. I
don't
recollect anybody else. Lee called us out to one side ... Q: Was
George Adair there? A: I don't think
he was, I cannot say. Q: Was
William C. Stewart? Defense: Objected
to as leading. Q: Go on
and explain to the jury what place you refer to. A: He
called us out, these names, a little to one side and we had a
consultation
about the instructions that carne through Higbee to him from Col. Dame
at
Parowan. A: Of the ranch. Q: You speak of a branch of the brethren? Q: Relate what he stated, as near as you can
remember. Q: What was done then? A: We went back, and the orders was to go up
to the
springs where the Indians and these southern soldiers were camped. At
the
spring, a way off, this side of the ground. Q: What do you mean by these soldiers? A: White men - southern [Utah]
soldiers-those that
carne from Washington County and around, so far as I know. Directly
after we
got up there, Lee called them into a hollow square and there talked to
them -
to the soldiers that were there; but I don't remember all that were
there. Q: How, and of whom, was that hollow square
formed? A: It was formed of white men, but I could
not give
the names of the persons, with the exception of a few. Q: About
how many in nll1nber? A: I
should judge there was fifty, so far as I recollect. Q: Was
there any Indians in that hollow square? A: There
wasn't in that hollow square. The Indians were off somewhere else. Q: Give the names of as many persons in that
square, of
that soldiers, as you can remember - composing that soldier. A: I could not remember all of their names. I
recollect some I noticed there. There was Mr. Slade. I was not in the
square. I
went off from what I was telling you, just to tell something I wanted. Q: You can go back to that. A: I noticed there Slade and I think his son;
and I
think Jim Pearce and brother, and his sons, but I would not be
positive. But
he recognized me. I'd done business with him. Q: Can
you remember any others? Q: Was
George Adair there? A: I
could not say positively that he was or was not - only by rumor. A: Mr. Stewart
was there. Q: State
as many others, if you remember others. A: There
was Swen Jacobs, was up there. Q: Was John
Willis there? A: He was down at
the Hamblin
ranch, but whether he was out there or not I could not say. Q: Was Dan McFarlane there? A: I would not be positive whether he was on
the
ground or not; it seems to run in my mind that he was, but I would not
be positive.
We stepped to one side out of the hollow square - that was myself and
old man
Slade - we stepped to one side up above the hollow square and talked
the matter
over, and the horrible thing that we were about to enter into. He had
some
feelings, and I had, that ran contrary to our natural feelings. Says I,
"What can we do, how can we help ourselves?" Says he, "We
can't." And directly, an order was given to march down, and we with the
rest went along. Q: How far from the hollow square was the
immigrants? A: Probably a mile and a quarter to a mile
and a half.
Don't think it's more than a mile and a half. There we were put into
double
file, by the orders that came. And John M. Higbee took command of that
portion.
With his other officers under him in that organization. A: It was an organization that was called the
Nauvoo
Legion that is organized from ten up to hundreds. Q: Go on and state what was done. A: There we halted, probably between a
quarter and a
half a mile this side of the encampment of these emigrants in
sight. And
someone went out with a flag of truce. Q: Did you know who? A: I could not tell you whether it was John
D. Lee, or
William Bateman; whoever it was, they came back after a
communication with
some man who came out and met them-came out from the emigrant
encampment. John
went down there, and that man and John D. Lee sat down and had a long
talk with
the man that came out of the emigrant camp to meet the flag of truce.
It was
two hundred yards, maybe a little more, from the camp in the
valley. What he
said to that man or to that people, I know not, only as I saw the plot
carried
out that came from Haight to him from Parowan - John M. Higbee to him. Q: Then what occurred? A: Lee went down with that man to the camp in
their
entrenchment. There a wagon came that was up there some time. I don't
know how
many hours before anyone came out. Prosecution:
May it please your Honor, this testimony is very important. I see that
one of
the jurors seems to be napping. Q: Go on from where you left off. A: Well, after some time, after standing in
the ranks
there some time-well, probably, in all, three or four hours Lee
was down at
their encampment and stayed there until he brought the emigrants out. Q: How long was he there? A: I have just
stated, three or four hours before he came out. After he came up, it
was
understood [according to the] command given from Higbee to us, that Lee
got, [that
was] put up in the start, in the morning, that wherever this company,
women to
be led ahead, after the first two baggage wagons, and the lame and the
children
were mostly in them. Women were led ahead. Those that had been wounded
in the
previous attacks, three days before, which I knew nothing about. Q: Tell what
occurred then. Defense: Objected
to for the same
reason as before - that a witness cannot tell what he didn't see. Judge:
Motion overruled. Defense: Exception. Witness:
Yes, sir. I heard him say that morning that they had been attacked and
could
not be routed. Q: Attacked
by whom? A: By
the Mormons who went out with the Indians. Q: Well,
go on from that point - where you were before - when Higbee was
giving the
orders. A: Well,
we were to march along a little ways with this people along side of us,
and
when the word "halt" came, we were to fire. Every man fired as far as
I know. Whether I did or not, I can't tell. A: As far as I
recollect, every
one of them. Q: Describe how
they were. State how
they were with reference to each other. A: They were
marching up ahead of
the men, behind these wagons. They went on around toward the summit,
where
there is a bend. When I heard the word "fire!" I went up there and
saw them laying along there. Q: In what condition? Q: Did you see any children there? A: I didn't see any in the body of where they
were
massacred. I saw a young girl that was probably seven or eight years
old-somebody killed her. I could not tell who killed her. I did not see
it. Q: You say
somebody killed her. Q: Do you know who it was? A: No, it was a kind of dusk, and I did not
see it. A: Behind, probably two or three hundred
yards. Q: How were they
killed? A: They were
shot. Q: By
whom? A: John
M. Higbee gave the orders. Q:
Where was Lee when this firing was done? A: With
the women on ahead, when they were slaughtered. A: I
presume he had. Q: What
is your remembrance of it? A: I
could not say at that time, because I could not hear him in action. Q: Did
you see any at all? A: He
carried his fire arms like any other man did. A: They
were armed with revolvers, United States Yaugers, and such guns as
settlers
generally have through this Territory. Some revolvers, yaugers, shot
guns and
so forth. Q:
State how many men were killed there? A: I
could not tell you positively. Q: Well,
about how many? A: I
suppose there were fifty. There might have been more, because I never
counted
them. I only know by hearsay afterwards, at different times. Q: Do
you know whether any escaped or not? A: None
got away as far as I recollect. None escaped from there. Q: Did yon see anyone of them attempting to
escape? Defense:
Objection to what the witness supposes. Prosecution
State what was done about that time. Witness: I was
told to take
charge of the children at that time. A: I
didn't see any other man. I saw Ira Allen -on the left wing on
horseback, and
that is all I remember of that. Q: You spoke of
some men being in
the wagons. What was done with them? A: When I got up to the wagons - I shall tell
you now
how I got there. I was told, after I had made a fire, to go and take
charge of
the little children-to gather them up and take charge of them. Q: Let me call your attention, again, to the
order in
which the men marc1zed out of corral. What position did the soldiers
occupy to
them as they marched out? A: They didn't occupy any till the soldiers
came up.
That is where the soldiers were stationed. Q: Describe to the jury; how the soldiers
were
stationed, and how the other men were marched up. A: I will state again, as I have, they were
marched up
there in single or double file, behind the women and the baggage
wagons, and
came up to where we was in a bend - probably a quarter of a mile
or so. I
can't tell, exactly. Q: How were you
located? A: I
was in the ranks with the balance. Q: Please
explain how that was. A: We
marched to the right side of them, while they kept to the left. Q: Describe how each soldier was situated to
some
other man. A: No, sir. Some
ran away. Q: What
was done with those that ran away? A: The
one I saw running, he was killed. Q: Did the greater portion of them fall the
first
shot? How were they killed? A: I didn't see but one man killed - and that
man was
wounded a little and was lying on the ground. And John M. Higbee went
up to him
and drew his knife and cut his throat. This man begged for his life,
and he was
lying on the ground when that was done. Q: How far from
the ranks was he
when that was done? A:
Not more than
a rod. He said,
"Higbee, I wouldn't do this to you." He knew Higbee, it appears. And
the reply was that, "You would have done the same to me, or just as
bad." At that time, I went away. I will state here one thing further in
that respect-that one large woman about that time came running down
from the
women and hollering for her husband and children, as I recollect, and
some man
on the left of me shot her in the back, and she fell dead and did not
move. Who
it was, I do not know. That was the only woman that I saw down there
that was
shot.
Q: After
the killing was ended, what was done then? A: There
I was told by Higbee to take charge of the children and the baggage
wagons. Q: By whom? A: I went
up there and took charge of them. These men, they were killed and out
of the
wagons before I got there. Q: Who killed
them? Q: Won't you designate who you mean by "these
men" - those men who were killed in the first attack in their
fortifications? A: These men that were with the baggage
wagons. Q: When
the wagon passed your ranks, who was with them? A: Lee
was with them, and ahead of the man that drove the wagon. Q: Was he
in the wagon, or on the ground? A: I do
not know-could not say whether he was in the wagon or not. Q: What occurred when you went up to take
charge of
the children? A: When I went up there, I don't recollect
seeing Lee.
They had a team there. Me, Murdy and
I
think Sam Knight, from the Clara was up with their wagons-and these
children
with some of the things was put into these wagons. And we went down to
Hamblin's house. And that is the end of my knowing or seeing anything
more
there. Q: Well, what were the soldiers doing there? A: They dispersed - going south to Cedar and
some to
Hamblin's ranch. I don't recollect of seeing anybody else from the
southern
districts except Knight. Q: Did you
see John D. Lee after you started away with these children? A: I did. Q: Where? A: I saw
him there. Q: Did you
have any conversation with him? A: I did not
have any conversation with him. Q: What
was he doing up to that time? A: I could not
tell you, because I went
immediately - went away and could not recognize any particular thing
that he
did. Q: I want you to go on from that point and
state what
was done, and how these men were dispersed. A: I don't know how they were dispersed; I
left there
as I told you, with the children and the wagons. I had my hands full.
Some of
the children were wounded and crying. Q: Some
of the children wounded? How many wounded? A: I
think one died at Hamblin's ranch. I think there was two died, but one
died
there. Q: Where
abouts were they wounded? A: I
think that it was wounded in the arm - a bad wound - and one somewhere
else. I
could not tell exactly, and I know I had to leave it. A: I don't
recollect. I could not tell you. I
don't remember. I never was near enough to them to count them. I never
saw them
going away from the slaughter - know nothing about that. Consequently,
I could
not tell you how many there was. Q: About how many wagons? State as near as
you can. A: I stated, I think, between twenty-five and
thirty,
when I passed them at Iron Springs. Q: When you passed them at Iron Springs, did
you see
the stock they had when you passed them there? A: There was a part there, and a part out.
They was
hunting some stock, and I cannot recollect only the teams; they were
hitched
up, ready to move on. Q: How many cattle had they? A: I did. A: In part, I
did; and in part I
didn't know what was done with them. Judge:
Objection overruled. Prosecution
continues: What was done with these cattle? A: As
regards what was done with them cattle, I don't know. Q: Do you
know what was done with any of them? A: I
know some. I would like to tell you a little farther, right from
Hamblin's. Q: Go on then. A: Well, the next morning I started with the
children
for Cedar City-I put them on Sam McMurdy's wagon and John Willis's
wagon, and
went on to Pinto Creek. And I think I left one little child there - one
that
was wounded; I left one or two there. Then I went home. I passed a
train from
San Bernardino. It was old Billy Matthews. I could not tell you who all
was in
from the fact that I didn't see them. We was off the road a little to
the
right, where there was water. They passed on while I was there. After
they was
gone, we went on to Cedar City. It was in the night before I got there.
I had
to stop there to get some water for the children. These men lived here
in
Beaver-most of them-these freight teams. Tanners, Matthews, and
Shepherds, I
think, and these old gentlemen, freighting at that time. I started on
at that
time, doing the best I could with the children - went on past them and
got
something to eat and drink, and went on and got to Cedar City in the
night. I
went to a place called Hopkins' Place. An old lady that was a
midwife there -
a motherly kind of woman who had midwifed around among the sisters
there - I
told her I had so many children got from that place. But I didn't tell
her any
particulars about it; though she perfectly well understood that,
because her
husband was in and out. She understood part of it, at least. There I
stopped
with these children and she rustled around and got places next day, and
I think
I took one home - I think I took one home or got it afterwards, I don't
know
which - a nice little baby girl, and my woman raised it-suckled it. And
afterwards that child was give to Birkbeck at Cedar City because they
had no
children. It was a babe at the breast. Q: Do you know what became of its mother? A: I don't recollect meeting with him after
that
occurred there - not at that place. Q: When
did you first meet him after that? A: I
met him in Salt Lake after. A: No,
sir, we didn't go to Salt Lake together. Defense:
We abject to that as hearsay, as to John D. Lee, and he is the only
party an
trial. A: At
this point arguments were made on both sides. Judge: Overruled. Defense:
Exception. Prosecution: Will you state now what
conversation,
after this massacre, you had with any of the parties. That is, you
refer to
Haight and Mr. Higbee, I believe - what conversation you had with them
in relation
to the disposition of the property belonging to that massacred train. A: I would have to give a little further
detail to
come to that point. Q: Be as brief
as you can, and amid any outside matters. A: Sometime
after that-several days-Haight told me to go over to the Iron Springs
that is
about seven miles from Cedar City on the old emigrant road - that would
be in
the early days. He told me to go over there, that they had brought in
wagons,
cattle, and other things - goods and clothing-and was at Iron Springs.
And I
should go over there and get that property and put them into the
tithing office
cellar. I accordingly, went. And I also was to brand the cattle that
was there,
which was probably fifty head. I went, and there I saw John Urie and
George
Hunter, and I think if I mistake not, other men were there who helped
to get it
there - and Ira Allen. But I would not be positive about that. However,
these
two men was there, with a number of wagons. I could not tell you now
the
number, but I presume the bigger part of them. Q: Tell
what you know. A: I
was there. Three men were engaged in it- picking it up at the
place of the
emigrant encampment. They took the wagons away, brought the cattle, and
drawed
them to that spring. I accordingly went under these order and brought
it from
there in the evening and put it in the tithing office cellar - all the
tarps
and clothing and such like that was among the company that got there
from the
place of the encampment at the Iron Springs. Hitched up some of the
cattle -
enough to draw these wagons over there. These wagons remained there
around the
tithing office and these goods remained there till afterwards, till a
different
disposition was made of them. Q: What else was
done? You stated
a different disposition was made. State what that was. A: After this
occurred, I branded
them with the Church brand. Q: What sort of
brand was that? A: With the
Church brand - a
cross. Q: State what else was done. You said there
was another
disposition made. A: I will now go back to another disposition.
I don't
recollect of but once seeing Mr. Lee, and he was up there at Cedar
City and
was in that cellar with me, and saw these good in the cellar.
Afterwards, I had
no more conversation with him that I recollect till he went to Salt
Lake. I was
told by Haight and Higbee that they held a Council, and counseled
matters over.
I was not present. Defense: We
object to witness detailing
as to matters that he did not hear. Judge: Objection
overruled. Q: Then it was
the sixth of
October following then that you were at Salt Lake City there to that
conference? Defense: Objected to on the grounds that this
matter
is not charged in the indictment. There is no conspiracy charged with
Brigham
Young. This is entirely outside of the allegations and the indictment.
It is
immaterial and irrelevant. Judge:
Objection overruled. Defense: Exception. Prosecution:
Go on. Q: What else? A: Then, probably the same day, or it might
be the day
after, but I think it was the same day, I and Mr. Lee, and Charlie
Hopkins went
to see President Young, and he went with us in his barnyard to one
place and
another and showed us his fine things, and we came back into his house,
and
there in my presence and Mr. Lee's and Mr. Hopkins', he turned around
to me, as
I had possession of that property. After doing this, says he, "Dispose
of
that property, let John D. Lee take charge of it." A: Brigham
Young said that. Defense:
We object to assertions of third parties. Judge: Objection overruled. Defense:
Exception. Witness: Next word was - he turned around to
us and
said, "What you know of this, say nothing about it: even don't talk
among
yourselves about it." Q: Did you relate to him the circumstances? A: I didn't tell him anything about it. He
turned to
Lee, as there had been this conversation, and it was the understanding-
Q: They
had a conversation, had they, before that? A: Yes,
and Lee was to carry out the understanding. Q: State,
if you know what disposition was made of that property. A: I had a conversation with Higbee and
Haight. It was
turned over to him to take charge of it; and while I was gone they had
an
auction, and it was sold. Q: Do you know what was done with the cattle?
A: I don't know; only those that went to Salt
Lake.
Haight had charge of them, and traded them to Mr. Hooper for boots and
shoes,
which went to Cedar City. Q: Who?
Which Mr. Hooper? A: That
man that was generally the Representative from Utah to Congress. Q: How
many cattle were disposed of in that way? A: I
presume forty or fifty head was sold. A: I never knew.
When I came
back, these goods were all gone. Some few good boots that I saw, I
traded wheat
for them-there was some few boots left. Q: Who did
I understand you to say, told you of tile disposition of this
property? A: Haight
and Higbee told me all about it. Q: Were there any
Indians present
at that massacre? A: Yes, sir. Q: How many? A: I could not tell you, but the hills were
pretty
full around there, and they done the massacring of the women,
generally. I
understood they were to accomplish it. I saw one man cut a little boy's
throat
with a knife just as I left the ranks to take charge of the children. I
also
saw others-a good many, but could not tell the names - but afterward I
heard of
them. Q: Did you see or hear of any remonstrances
or efforts
to restrain the Indians there? A: I did not. I
understood at the time that Carl Shirts had a kind of charge of them,
and kept
them in the brush. Defense:
We object to this as hearsay. No
ruling by the court. Prosecution:
Did you hear anything said on the subject of the Indians on the ground
here? A: I did
not. Q: Were you ever
told what part
they took in it by any who were e1lgaged in it? A: Yes, sir. A: Yes,
sir. Three wounded that I know of. Q: What
was done with them? A: Two
died afterwards, of their wounds. Q: After
the massacre, where did the Indians go to? Q: How long did
they remain
there? A: They remained
there a
considerable length of time. Q: Did
you see any property of emigrants in their possession? A: I
saw a wagon cover that they had, and that they'd put around their
wikiups. Q: Did
you see any clothes? A: That would be a hard matter to do. In
general, the
clothing were a kind of home made men's wear. Q: Was
there anything peculiar on the clothes or about them? Q: Was
there any blood stains on them? A: Yes,
there was, I believe, but I could not tell you as regards to that, of
the
Indians. Q: What
kind of clothes did John D. Lee wear when he went to Salt Lake City? A: I believe he
had a checked shirt on.
A: Yes. A: Of
course. Q: Do you know
where he got it? A: I
don't know where he got the coat? A: I
did. Q: What? Q: And
what did he do with them? A: He
said he wanted it for some clothing. That is what he said. A: I
don't, only by the stories that Mr. Allen brought to me-that Mr. Allen
brought
to me and Joel White when he met us. He said it was- Defense:
Exception. Q: Did you ever
have a conversation
with John D. Lee on that subject? A: Yes, sir. I
had a conversation
about it afterwards. Q: That was it? A: I don't recollect the conversation about
it,
because there was not much said about it at any time; there was very
little
talk at any time. But I knew the thing was done. Adjourned. Reconvened
Saturday, July 24, 1875, 9:00 A.M.
Minutes
read, statement made, etc., then Phillip Klingensmith is recalled
for the
Prosecution for further direct examination. Prosecution:
Do you know the names of any persons that were killed at the mountain
Meadows? A: I could not
say; it was an hour or two, as far as I can recollect. Q: Did you have any conversation with John D.
Lee as
to what occurred between him and the emigrants in that consultation? A: No, sir. Not that I recollect. Q: Never
talked with him about that subject? A: If
I did, it slipped my mind. Q: On
that occasion? A: Not
that I recollect of. Q: Did you ever have any conversation with
him subsequent
to the massacre, as to what occurred during his communications with the
emigrants at the time he was there - that is, after the Massacre
occurred - did
you ever have any conversation with John D. Lee as to what happened
between
them when he was in there? A: I have had a talk with him, but to
recollect what
he said about it I could not remember. Q: Who was the Commander of the Nauvoo
Legion for
southern Utah? Who was the General Commander? A: I always understood that George A. Smith
was the
General Commander. Q: Who was the Commander of the Nauvoo
forces, of
which that was a part, for Iron County? A: Dame was the Colonel of that organization
down from
there. A: Isaac C. Haight. Q: Did Higbee have any position? A: Yes, he was major. A: Not
that I recollect. I didn't see him. Q: Do you
remember before this
occurrence? Q: Do you know whether any of these orders
which led
to that massacre emanated from George A. Smith? And, if so, what
it was? A: No, sir. Not that I know about. Defense: We ask also that it 11e stricken out
- the
testimony as to wl11lt took place in the two conferences prior to the
Massacre,
when Lee was not present. [Prosecuting] counsel undertook to
connect Lee with
it, and Lee has not been connected with it.
Cross-examination [This ends Phillip Klingensmith's testimony
for the
prosecution. Wm. W. Bishop began the cross-examination of
Klingensmith for
the
defense. Portions of the cross-examination, which is long and sometimes
repetitious, are omitted.] Klingensmith:
I believe I'm going on sixty-one. I was born in '15, I understand the
third of
April. Q: Where were you
born? Q: How long did
you reside in Pennsylvania
after your birth? A: I guess I was
about
twenty-three or twenty-four years old. Q: Where did you
remove to from
Pennsylvania? Q: How long did
you remain there? A: Maybe,
four, maybe five years. A: I moved to
Michigan and from there to Nauvoo. A: In forty-four,
I believe. A: Till
about forty-six, when the Mormons left Nauvoo. Q: After
leaving Nauvoo, where did you go to? A: I went to
Garden Grove, and stopped a while in
Iowa, and I remained there about a year. Q: From there,
where did you go? A: Council
Bluffs. Q: How long did
you remain there? Q: Where
did you go from Council Bluffs? A: I came
to Salt Lake. Q: When
did you arrive in Salt Lake? A: In
forty-nine. Q: What month? A: August. Q: How long did you remain in Salt Lake? A: I remained there probably three months;
not all the
time in Salt Lake; I lived in Salt Lake, I had a lot there. A: Sanpete, in
the year
forty-nine. Q: How
long did you remain in Sanpete? A: I was there
to make two crops. Q: Where
did you go next? A: I came down
here, to Parowan. Q: How
long did you remain in Parowan? A: I
remained there one winter till next spring, and the same year. Q: Where did you
go from there? Q: What year did
you settle there
in Cedar City? Q: How long did you make that your home? A: I remained there some eight or nine years,
in all,
until a year after this affair took place, when I left there. A: Yes, sir. A: I think it
must have been
fifty-nine when I left there. A: I went to a
little town over
the mountains, Toquerville. A: Not
very long, at that time. Q: Where
did you go from Toquerville? A: To
this place. Q: How long did
you remain here? A: A year and a
half. Q: After that,
where did you go? A: I came back to
Toquerville
again, and lived there a little while. Q: How long at
Toquerville? A: Oh,
the last time about six months. Q: Where did you
next settle? A: I went up on
the ranch, then,
east from there on the bench country. Q: How
long did you remain on that ranch? Q: Where
did you go next? A: I
moved to Parowan. Q: How
long did you remain in Parowan at that time. A: I
think I stayed there a year, probably. Q: Where did you
go next? A: I moved to the
Muddy [River],
when the settlements was made on the Muddy. Q: In what year
did you settle on
the Muddy? Q: How
long did you remain on the Muddy? A: I
remained there to make two crops. Q: How many crops
a year? A: I went there
in May, and the
next season I left there on the fifteenth of April. Q: Give the year
you left there
in. A: I think it was
in sixty-five,
but I didn't keep a record. A: I moved to
Parowan. Q: How
long did you remain in Parowan? A: I
don't recollect. Q: Then,
where did you move to? A: Out
to Muddy Valley, where I live now. A: I
resided there a year, down on Wash Dam
Ranch. A: I think
it was in seventy, if I mistake not. Q: Do you refer
to the place
called Newman's Ranch as your home? A: It is
generally known as Dutch
Flat. Q: Twenty-two
miles from Pioche? A: Yes,
sir. Or twenty-four. Q: How
many years have you lived there? A: Five
years. Q: How
much of that time, during the last five years, have you been at that
place?
Q: Where hope
you remained the other portion of the time? A: Been
out prospecting and mining. Q: You
say you went to Nauvoo in forty-four, and remained there until
forty-six? A: Yes,
sir. Q: Then you describe how you got to Salt
Lake, and
various mopes at the time you left Salt Lake to go with the company
that were making
new settlements. Did you then hold any office in what is known as
the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? A: Yes, sir. I was an Elder, and belonged to
the
Seventies at that time, ordained in Nauvoo to that office - the ninth
quorum of
Seventies at the reorganization of the old stand. Q: In
what year were you ordained? A: In the
year I went there-in a month or so after I went there. Q: When
you got to the settleme1lts, state whether you had any office in the
Church at
that place. A: In Sanpete, I
had not. Q: At
Cedar City, in the year fifty-seven, did you hold my office in the
Church then? A: I was a
Bishop, there. A: Of Cedar City.
A: No,
sir. Q: How long had you been Bishop at that point
in the
month of September fifty-seven? A: From the day I had been made Bishop, until
this-I
could not tell without counting up. Q: That
would be about how long? A: Probably
six years, five or six, something like that it must have been. Q: As Bishop of that Church, what was your
duty? A: My duty as a Bishop was to act with the
temporal
affairs, and tithing, and lead out as a father among the people, making
fields
and water ditches, and such things. That was my duty, and I done it. Q: Did you, as such Bishop, have the general
supervision of all temporal matters within your jurisdictions? A: I had, of all temporal matters, under the
Presidency. Q: Was it customary for the people to meet
together
and decide upon any act without the consent of the Bishop or President?
A: I
had. Q: You
say it was the custom of people to act as directed by the Councils? A: Yes,
sir. Q: Did
they, at any time during the year fifty-seven, perform any act or acts
of a
temporal nature, without being first permitted to do so by the Bishop
and
Council? A: No,
sir. A: Yes, sir. Q: What was it that you first heard
concerning that
company of emigrants? A: I heard that there was an emigrant train
coming
from Salt Lake, that was ordered out from there, and that they was
coming down
through the settlements, going to California. Q: From
where had you heard that the people were forbidden to trade with these
parties? A: I
heard it from that President, Mr. Haight. He got it. Q: What did Mr. Haight say to you at the time
he gave you
this information? A: I don't remember; I could not tell you
what he said
at that time. There was not much said about it. Q: Did
you naturally take this information by observation, without words upon
the
subject? A: By
words being spoken. Q: What
were these words; where did you receive that information? In Cedar
City? A: In
Cedar City. Q: Was it
in the Council at Cedar? A: I
think the principal place was in the afternoon meeting in Council. Q: What men were present at that afternoon
meeting?
Q: Who
presided at that meeting? A: Isaac
C. Haight and I think Laban Morrill, and Wiley. Q: Can't
you tell anything that was said at that meeting? A: Yes, I
don't know but I can. Q: Tell me something that was said about the
emigrants
that were coming. A: I think that Haight preached, and the main
part-most-it was his business as President to preach up any subject he
wanted
to at such a meeting. I think that was where it first started from, if
I
recollect right. Q: Something you know he said, or somebody
else said;
I want a few facts. Tell me what somebody said at that meeting
concerning this
emigrant train. A: I know what I said. Q: Tell
me what you said. A: I know
some words; I know that I said some words. Q: Tell me what he said, and what you said. A: He said that the emigrants was coming down
and the
rumor was - the idea was - to have them destroyed. That was the sum and
substance, as far as I recollect. Q: What did you
say? Q: What
did anybody else say? A: I
could not tell you just what they said. I know Ira Allen was in favor,
with
Haight. A: No, sir. A: I
don't know as there was any principal reason. Q: Did Allen give
any reason? Q: Did Haight give any particular reason -
that the
idea of the destruction was coming along? Do you say that at your
Church
Council, where you was acting Bishop, that you met and coolly discussed
and
proposed the murder of the entire train without any cause whatever? A: No, that was not the intention. Q: Then, tell me what your intention was, and
how you
came to do it - if there was any reason for it. A: I can tell you now, as I told you before,
that he
preached this matter, and some were with him and other opposed to it. Q: Was he simply
advising them to
be killed without giving any reason for it? A: Yes,
sir. Q: Was
there anything said about the property of that train? A: No,
sir. Q: Wealth? A: No,
sir. Q: Where they
were from? A: I
don't know as there was; if there was, I don't remember. Q: How many of
that Council voted
to kill that train? A: There was no
vote taken. A: Those
that I mentioned - three or four. Q: How
many opposed it? A: There
was nearly as many. Q: Who were the
main ones that
didn't want that useless slaughter? A: I think Mr.
Morrill, and my
counsel, and myself. Q: You opposed it? A: I
did. Q: Did
you have the right to appeal from the decision of that President to any
other
power. A: Yes, I
would have, I suppose, in some things. Q: Would
you in any matter of that character? A: Yes, I
expect that I might have had. Q: Did you make an effort to appeal to any
higher
power, or ask any person to repeal the action of President Haight - to
stop his
action with regard to that emigrant train? A: I don't know of any power I could resort
to for
that purpose. Q: Didn't know of
any? A: No, sir. Q: You say that you heard that the people
were
forbidden to trade with the emigrants, and it made you feel bad.
Tell me how
you obtained that information. A: I obtained it in the same manner from the
authorities over me, I heard it talked over and preached over. Q: Who
did you hear preach over it? A: I
heard Haight preach over it in public. Q: How
many times before this train arrived in Cedar City did you hear Haight
preach
that you should not furnish these people with supplies - that train? A: I
think once at least; I could not say how many times. Q: How
long was it before the emigrants arrived -before you first heard they
were
coming? A: It was
only a few days, I think. Q: How many days?
A: Several
evenings. Q: How
could you hear Haight preach several times when there was only three or
four
days? A: There
was several on Sunday. Q: What
did you mean by saying that you heard him frequently - several times
previous
to that? A: There
was such an order of things. Q: It was
not in regard to this train, then? A: Not
all the time about the same train. Q: You will please hereafter confine yourself
in
speaking of the train, to things pertaining to this train, not to other
trains,
but to this particular set of men. It will save you trouble and me
trouble. A: I don't know of any more than that one
time. Q: Did you hear this order for tile people to
have no
dealings with the emigrants; did you hear them preaching that before
you had
this meeting in Council? A: Yes, sir. Q: How
long, before you had that council? A: On the
same Sunday. Q: Didn't
you say in your examination in chief that this council was held on
Friday. A: I
said, on Sunday afternoon. Q: Had
you been absent from Cedar City a short time prior to the arrival of
this
emigrant train? A: No,
sir. Not that I recollect anything about. Q: How long had you been in Cedar City
without
leaving, or without being absent, previous to the arrival of the
emigrants? A: I was not away that I know of. Q: Go on
and state what you know of that massacre. Don’t state any hearsay. A: The first thing I shall mention is, I
heard of this
company coming from Salt Lake; had heard also that the people were
forbidden to
trade with them, and a great deal of feeling some way. Q: Now then, tell me if you ever heard of
this emigrant
train until you heard of it in the meeting on the Sunday previous to
the arrival
of the emigrant train? A: The emigrant train passed through Cedar
City before
that meeting. Q: It did? A: Yes, sir. A: Probably
two days; I think it was on Friday that they passed through. Q: Did you not state in answer to a question
I asked
you, that you had heard Haight preach that the people should furnish
the emigrants
no supplies before they arrived? A: I did, at different times. Q: Tell me when you heard Haight preach first
to the
people of Cedar City, forbidding them to furnish this emigrant
train supplies,
that they afterward massacred. A: I could not tell you exactly-more than
that was the
preaching that he preached. Q: Did
you ever hear any person preach previous, to not furnish supplies,
before their
passing through there? A: I
might have done, a week. Q: Then,
you was wrong when you said you only heard him preach about this train
once? A: I
don't know as I said so. Q: Do you
say you didn't say so? A: I
don't know as I said I only heard him once - I said, a number of times.
Q: Referring
to this identical train? A: Yes,
but just where or what place, I could not say. Q: How long before the emigrants arrived at
Cedar City
was it that you heard Haight mention that train? A: I couldn't say; it might have been a week,
might
have been less. Q: How long was the train of emigrants at
Cedar City
when they passed through? A: I could not tell you exactly. It was not
very long.
I happened to be down on the lower town and saw a few of them that
was at the
mill. I think they passed right along, I could not say, but I think so.
[A portion is deleted here in which
Klingensmith was
made to repeat the information on rumors that the emigrants were to be
stopped
or killed, and also his assertion that he wanted to see them go through
unmolested. - ed.] Q: Did
Haight or anybody say to you that there had been a determination formed
for the
purpose of killing the emigrants? A: Not at
that time. Q: Why,
if you knew this - why did you not as Bishop of the Church inquire
particularly
concerning it? A: So far as I
had power, I did. Q: Hadn't
you the power to ask him how they were to be killed? And now they were
to be
dispatched? A: If he
had told me these things, I would. A: I asked that,
particularly, in
the meeting before. Q: What did he say? A: As I told you how, that when we held this
meeting,
and this subject up and it came my turn to speak, I asked if such a
thing
should take place, and what would be consequence be of such a thing. Q: You or I, one, can't understand what the
other is
driving at. I want to know if you, there, asked Mr. Haight the
question, or if
you, there, heard him give the answer to it. If he was asked why the
people
were to be killed, and who was to kill them. A: No, he didn't say who or why, he gave no
answer,
and broke up the meeting, and went out home. I did [it] their way, what
I told
you. Q: You
simply asked him what the consequences would be? Did you ask him why
the people
should be killed? A: If I
did, it would be the same thing. Q: It
is very different, the reason for committing the act and the result of
the act.
I want to know if you understood at the time that you went to Pinto
Creek -
whether you understood then, or had ever been informed why the
emigrants were
to be killed, and who were ordered to kill them, or at what point they
were to
be attacked. A: Nobody
gave any reason why they should be killed. A: I am. Q: Did
you ever hear any reason given before, or afterwards? A: I did not
before. Q: Did
you afterwards? A: I did
not-never had. Q: You say that you were ordered to go to
Pinto Creek
- tell us what you did there? A: I went with Mr. White, accompanied him
there, and
had the orders given from Haight what to tell the people. I [was] told
nothing;
I simply went with him as company. He told me, we were to tell the
President
[at Pinto Creek] that he should see that the people went through there,
and
allay the excitement of the Indians, and for the people to go through
clear. Q: Then
you can't tell me anything about what took place at Pinto Creek at all.
A: Which place do you refer to, Painter Creek
settlement? [note: Pinto (Span.) Creek and Painter (Engl.) Creek refer
to the
same small settlement. - ed.] Q: How
long did you remain at Pinto Creek? A: Got
there in the night and in the morning we left. Q: How
many did you see at Pinto Creek?
Q: Did
you see any particular excitement there, directed towards these
emigrants?
Q: Did you see
any evidences
there of ill will of any kind against the emigrants. Q: Did you
converse with these
people? A: I didn't
particularly about
it. Q: Did
you talk with them about anything? A: Nothing
more than a man or two that I talked with; I didn't talk about this
thing. Q: Going
as a special messenger, did you remain silent about it? Why did you
remain
silent about your mission? Q: Did you see John D. Lee from the time you
left
Cedar till
the time you returned? A: Yes, sir. A: About two
miles and a half
below Cedar. Q: Tell me what he was doing - what was said,
when you
met him. Q: Was that all
he said? A: Says he, "I
have
something to say in that matter." Q: Didn't say that, in your direct
examination, that
he said, "I have something to say, too, about that matter"? A: That is what I said now. It might be that
I have
mentioned it that way. Q: Please give the language that John D. Lee
used in
that conversation as you want it to stand. A: I gave it as
near as I recollect, of course. When we met, he asked, "Where are you
going?" and what the business was over there. And White replied, we was
going over to painter creek to see that the emigrant train got through
safe,
and to talk to the people, and to exert an influence with them, that
they might
go through safe, and to talk to the President fully about it. Q: What did he
say then? A: "I
have got something to say about that
matter." That is what he said. A: Not long. Q: What
time of day was that? A: In the
afternoon, probably. Q: That was about two and a half miles from
Cedar that
you met John D. Lee. What time did you leave Cedar to go to Painter
Creek? A: About the middle of the day, I
suppose. Pretty
near. Q: What
time did you say you got to Painter Creek? A: Sometime
in the night. Q: About
what time? A: Probably
midnight. Q: You say Allen told you that the die was
cast in the
council at Parowan; did he tell you who had cast that die and gave the
order? A: He didn't mention any particular name,
that I
remember-not that I recollect. Q: Did he
mention any names? A: I
think the expression was, simply by the authorities. Q: What authorities
did he refer to, civil or military? A: Well,
they were both in one. A: Yes, sir. Q: The
members of the Church council constituted the members of military
council, then? A: Well,
they were officers in the military. Q: What did you
do when you
returned to Cedar City? Who did you go to see? A: I didn't go
see anybody; I
went home. A: It
must have been Tuesday-Monday I went out; Tuesday I got back. Q: Got home
Tuesday? Q: What
time of day did you get home on Tuesday? A: I
think it was about noon, or the middle of the afternoon. A: I gave no direction about it. Q: Was he cut off
the Church? A: I disremember.
Q: Was
the matter of his selling that wheat made a subject of discussion in
the
council? A: Not that I
know of. A: No, sir. Q: Do
you know where he is? A: I
don't, but he was here, in this place. Q: How
long had they been gone before you knew it? A: He told me that the thing hadn't worked
altogether
as they anticipated. They had a balk of it. An order came in from them
to me
last evening, and says he, "1 went up to Parowan, then to see and get
further instructions and orders about it, and to go back before day
this
morning; was gone all night." Q: What else? A: And then he told me what the council had
agreed
upon; he said that the council was to decoy them, and to save nothing
but the
small children. Q: Did
you object to it at that time? A: Then I
went down to the lower town. Q: Did you
make any effort to rally the people to go out and save the train of
emigrants? A: I did
not. Q: Were
you not a Bishop?
Q: But as a man, casting aside you
allegiance, could
you not have done it in safety? Did you do anything in that
council more than
simply ask the questions as to what would be consequence to the act? A: I stated I was entirely opposed to it, and
that
made him mad. Q: That was all
you said admit it?
Q: You tried to
prevent no one
from going? A: Because
I was afraid if I was to undertake that, that it would be bad for me. Q: There
nl1lst be some reason - who was you afraid of? Name them. A: I was
afraid of the authorities, the authorities immediately over me. Q: Which
do you refer to, Church or military? A: I had this
reason-that if a man didn't walk up
to what he was told to, it would not be well for him. Q: Do you mean
that he would suffer
personal violence? A: I
might have been. Q: You was afraid
you might have
been killed? A: Yes, sir. A: Yes, it was my right. Q: How
was it with other people, there? A: The
same way, as far as I know of. A: Yes, sir. Q: If you, being the third mall in position,
could not
disobey authority, had you the right to give directions to those under
you in
anything? A: Only in
small, temporal affairs. Q: Killing
a few people of that kind was a temporal matter with you? A: No,
sir. I had to. Q: Who
were the authorities that claimed you had to obey? Haight. Haight was
the man? A: Yes,
and his council. Q: Whom
were his council? A: John
M. Higbee and Elias Morris. Elias Morris was the son of old man Morris,
that
was my counsel. Q: You say that you was afraid of your life,
if you
refused to obey orders - it is rather a peculiar answer. I asked you
what
reason you had to form such an opinion. Did you form that opinion from
the long
acquaintance with the institutions of this country and the manner of
enforcing
discipline? A: It was the long acquaintance with things I
had here
in various ways. Q: Did your personal knowledge of these
matters enable
you to form a more accurate idea of the manner of enforcing
discipline? A: I had no particular knowledge of anybody's
being
put out of the way, or anything of that kind. Q: You say you never knew of anything of that
kind? A: I have seen when one man was put out of
the way in
that manner, but not out here in this country. I saw a man die. Q: In
this country, you never heard of such a thing being done? A: I had heard
of it. A: Yes, sir. A: Yes,
of course. Q: You say you had heard of things of this
kind being
done; tell me something you had heard, and the reasons for acting this
way. What
had you heard concerning the actions of the council that let you to
believe
that your life was in danger if you disobeyed instructions? A: I don't know as I could refer you to any
particular
thing. Q: That was
the general feeling that pervaded the atmosphere - the same as this
rumor? Or
that ought to be done? A: That
is the way of it, mostly. Q: You
say you had been Bishop there for six years, and had heard of men being
put out
of the way by order of the council? A: Never
by order of council. Q: Do you say you
knew of any
member of the council acting against the institutions of the Church or
military? [At this point, the defense attempted to
bring in
stories of murders supposed to have occurred when men had committed
serious
sins or crimes, or disobeyed authorities. In particular the name Rasmus
Anderson was raised, and finally the defense attorney suggested that
Klingensmith had participated. -ed.] A: He didn't. A: I didn't. Q: How long after you had this conversation
with
Haight that you saw him again? A: I think we went out that day, and next day
the
slaughter took place. And the next day of the evening of the slaughter,
he got
there. Q: You mean
the evening of the day of the slaughter? Or the day after it? A: The
evening of it. Q: You saw him
that same night? A: Yes, sir. At
Hamblin's ranch. Q: Did
you receive orders from Mr. Lee to go to the slaughter - to leave Cedar
City? A: No,
sir. John M. Higbee gave me those orders. Q: Why
did You say you left Cedar City and went to the Mountain Meadows by the
order
of John D. Lee? A: I
didn't state so, did I? Q: I asked you,
by whose orders.
You said, "by Lee's and John M. Higbee's." Q: What
time of day was that? A: That
was in the fore part of the day, probably. Q: What
did you say to Higbee when he gave you that order? A: I
don't think I made any reply. A: I went and
got my gun and ammunition and went. Q: Who went
with you? A: I
could not recollect all that went out at that time; there was a number.
Q: About how
many? Q: Was you a
member of the
regular military? A:
I was a
private.
Q: What
company did you belong to, or regiment or division, at the time you
went out? Q: I mean
regular companies -hundreds or whatever it was. A: There
were from tens to fifties, and from that to hundreds. A: Haight
commanded them. Q: Who
was your captain? A: John
M. Higbee was next in command. Q: Who
was your captain? A: Higbee. A: Them, we
called captains and
majors both.
Q: Did
you hear any orders given to Lee at that council? Q: What
did Higbee say to Lee? A: He
told him, from these orders that he had from Haight, that they came
from
Parowan. Q: Please repeat that. A: That the orders had come, that they was to
be decoyed
out and destroyed, with the exception of the small children. Q: Did he
give any commands to Lee, what he should do? Q: Don't
remember him giving any orders to Lee? A: No,
sir. Not any commanding orders? Q: Did you hear this talked over in this
council, how
this was to be done, and who was to do it? A: Yes, I heard these orders delivered over
to him by
Higbee. A: I
told you that Higbee said to Lee- A: Yes, sir. A: I
suppose he did; I know he did. Q: Was
there anything said about the Indians at that time? Q: Wasn't it agreed upon council, where you
was present,
the exact part the Indians could take, when the emigrants had been
decoyed from
their corral? A: I don't
recollect particularly. Q: Didn't you understand, at the time you
funnelled into
line, some half mile from the corral, that you and the others of the
whites
there under arms should kill the men, and that the Indians should kill
their
women and children? Q:
That order was delivered by Higbee, there on the field, after you had
been
placed in line? Q: That was the
first you heard
of that? A: He
went down from the lines. A: It
was afterwards, of course. Q: Was
he present at the time these orders were given? A: As of my own knowledge I know what was
said there,
in the council, before they started out to accomplish it. That he was
to take
charge of the whole matter, according to his authority that he had or
pretended
to have. He was to take charge of it; Higbee assisted him. Q: Who
gave the orders? A: Higbee,
when he was in the square. Q: After you had been drawn up into line -
after the
emigrants marched out who gave the orders? A: He was the commander over the men - Lee
was under
Higbee, over all these soldiers. Q: Were
you there as a military company, or otherwise? A: I
don't know. A: From
Harmony. A: I heard it
from rumor before ever that thing
happened. A: I could not tell you that, because I do
not know
that man. Q: Don't
you know that at that time he held no military command whatever? A: I didn't hear any particular orders,
there. I was
not in the hollow square. A: No,
I said I didn't hear it. Q: Do you know if any orders were given to
the men
there then, or not? A: It was said so, but I didn't hear it. I
told you
before that I was outside of that hollow square. I didn't know what was
said
inside the square. A: I joined this far, that they had such
orders and
authority to go and carry them out, according to their orders. That is
what I
said. Q: Did you not
also state at that
time and place that it was too late to stop now? A: No, I don't know as I know anything
about that; I
know that in going, what Higbee said on the road about where one man
was killed
and another at Richie's Springs. He had been put out, it appears,
before the
first attacks, and when we got to that point, he spoke of that thing
going out. Q: At that same council, did you not argue
that it
would be right to exterminate the emigrants because Johnston's Army was
on the
east, and that this was a necessary war measure? A: No, sir. I did not. Q: Did
you make any effort after you arrived on the field to prevent the
attack on the
emigrants out there? A: No. Q: Did you converse with any person, or
persons,
requesting that the matter be stopped or suggest any different line of
action
than that marked out by Higbee's instructions? A: No, there was no chance for me there. Q: What do you mean by saying that there was
no
chance, when you had the right and privilege of talking to them and to
do as
you pleased? A: Well, as to that first flag going from the ranks, I could not positively tell, only as my mind was refreshed; it was a man by the name of William Bateman. [At this point,
defense attorney Bishop leads the witness through a long and detailed
rehearsal
of the positioning of the troops and their intended victims, catching
Klingensmith in some contradictions, or confusing him. This leads once
again to
the question of who was in charge. - ed.] Q: State
the word used by Higbee when he gave the command to attack the
emigrants. A: It was
understood- Q: I don't want what was understood - give me
Higbee's
words that he used on the field. A: Well he said, at the head of his column at
the
time, the Nauvoo Legion, "Halt," and "Fire!" Q: Where
was John D. Lee at the time? A: He was
with the women, ahead. Q: How
far from you? A: I could not
say, exactly. Might have been two
or three hundred yards. Q: Was
he in sight of you? A: No,
he was hidden from us behind a point like. A: Yes,
sir. Q: How far were the women, that is the
hindmost women
in advance of the foremost men that was in the column, just a
little before
they halted? Q: How
long did the emigrants stand in line after they were first halted? A: They
never stood in line. "Halt" and Fire!" was one. A: All
done at the same time, so far as I know. Q: Who
were those that went out first, and those that came back? Q: Then you heard the talk about what was
taking place
on the field, while you still remained at Cedar? A: I had
one with Higbee and those three men. A: I did,
certainly I did. Q: Obeying
orders according to your fullest capacity? A: Yes,
sir. I did. Q: I wish you would refresh your memory and
tell us
whether the emigrants were marching in double file or single file at
the time
you fired upon them. A: As near as I can recollect, in double
file. Q: What
man, if any, came with the emigrants up to where your company was
stationed. A: I
don't know any, except John D. Lee. Q: Did he
come with the men? A: Yes,
with the company. With the women ahead. Q: Where was Lee? Q: Now,
didn't anybody else go down into the camp but Lee? A: Not that
I know of. Q: Do you know of anybody going down to the
camp while
Lee was there, but Lee? A: I don't, unless it was those with the
wagons; there
was the wagons went down there. Q: Who
drove the wagons? A: Sam
McMurdy was one; and the other, I believe, belongs to Sam Knight. A: Not that I
know of; if I did
[say it], I don't know anything about it. A: I don't know as I did. A: No, sir. Q: How
many of your men were on horseback? A: I
don't recollect seeing more than two. Q: You
stated, I believe, that you didn't know the names of any of the people
that
were there killed.
Q: What
name, if any, was this train known by previous to the day that they
were
attacked? A: I
never knew any name. Q: Had
you ever heard any special name given to them? A: Not as
I recollect; I might have heard a name, but if I did it has slipped my
mind. Q: Is it not a fact that all of you made up
the
arrangement to go out and kill these people for their property? A: No, sir. There was no such a thought, in
my mind,
at least. A: I don't know as they spoke to anyone in
particular,
that I remember anything about. Q: After the emigrants left the corral, while
they
were marching up where you stood in line, did you see any Indians upon
the
field? A: I saw
Indians on the right above us. Q: How
many did you understand, from those in authority? A: I saw a good
many around there. Q: How many did you understand, from those
in
authority, were there? A: I think I heard it talked of that there
was
something more than a hundred Indians there. A: I do not. A: I have
forgotten it. A: I
got them different places around, amongst
the people. I considered it a serious matter. A: I did do so. Court:
Go ahead. A: I name myself, for one; I name another
Ingram -
they got a couple, as they had no children - they came a good ways to
get them. Q: What
did you do with the others; isn't there thirteen left or fifteen left? A: John M.
Higbee got one, the biggest boy. Q: Who
got the others - who else got any? A: Left
one at Hamblin's; left one at Pinto Creek. Q: That
is five, do you recollect who got the other twelve? A: I
don't recollect; I took pains to get them as good places as I could. A: At Cedar City.
A: It might have
been a week; it
might have been longer; I couldn't tell you. A: Yes,
sir. Some. Q: Concerning
this matter? A: No,
not particularly concerning it. Q: Who
helped you brand the cattle? A: John
Urie, George Hunter and Ira Allen. I don't recollect of anybody else. Q: Where
were the cattle corralled for branding? A: At
Iron Springs, seven miles from Cedar City. Q: Who was placed in charge of the cattle,
from that
time? A: Those men who brought and helped to brand
them, and
put the Church brand on them by Haight's orders. Q: How
long were you engaged in branding cattle? A: We
went there in the morning, and came away in the evening. Q: Did you ever
see any of the
stock, except as you branded there? A: I
didn't. Not to my recollection. I don't know
anything about that. Q: How
many mules? A: These
three went to Cedar City; two was left in my charge, and one John
Higbee got. Q: How long did
you keep these two mules? A: Kept
them. A: John Urie,
George Hunter and Ira Allen as far as I recollect; there might have
been some
more. A: It remained there until after I went up to
Conference and back; it was there when I went for lead, and there when
I came
back. Q: How
long did you remain in Salt Lake? A: Maybe
four or five days - maybe a week. I could not say exactly. For a day or
two. Q: While
in Salt Lake did you inform the authorities there as to the exact
manner in
which that train of emigrants had been disposed of? A: No,
sir. A: No, sir. Q: You
didn't speak about it at all at that time? A: No, sir. A: No,
sir. Q: Didn't you
suppose at that
time that the Chief authorities in the Territory resided in Salt Lake? A: I knew that. Q: Why
did you remain silent upon that subject? A: I expect it
extended pretty well up in that thing. Q: What do you mean by that; do you mean
east, west,
north or south, how and what? Q: Did he
have any authority at Salt Lake? A: No, I
don't know. He didn't have any authority in Salt Lake, as I know of. Q: Did any person
ask you
anything about it in Salt Lake? A: I don't
recollect of any
outsider. Q: What
man was that that had the audacity to talk with you on that subject? Q: Did you give him the facts? A: No, I didn't give him any particular
facts; he
asked me about it; he said he was away from there, lived north then. Q: Do you
think you did tell him? A: I
expect I did tell him something about it; but just what I told him I
cannot
say. Q: Hadn't you just as much right to talk to
Brigham
Young, to George A. Smith, and such other parties, as you had to him? A: I don't know
as I had, because they didn't ask me to talk about such things. Q: Then he is the only man you have talked to
about it
in Salt Lake City? A: The man was interested in it because of
John D Lee
being his father-in-law. Q: How long after you returned to Cedar City
after the
conference that you saw John D. Lee again? A: I don't know as I recollect seeing him at
all anymore
till after I came back south, that I recollect. Q: You
say that you went with Hopkins and Lee to visit President Young? A: Yes,
sir. Q: Who
introduced the subject at that visit concerning the property formerly
belonging
to the emigrants? A: President
Young. A: He said, concerning that property of
that people,
"Let John D. Lee take charge of it, inasmuch as he is the Indian agent
now." That is what he said. Q: You
say the Brigham young said to you, and to Hopkins, and to Lee, "Say
nothing of what you know about this matter.” A: Yes,
sir. A: He did. Q: Was
anything else said by him there to you by way of advice or counsel? A: No,
sir. Q: What
reply did you make? A: I made
none. A: I could not tell you; not a very great
while. I
never was catched again after that, I know that. Q: Then you kept in absolute silence
concerning the
facts concerning the tragedy something over thirteen years? A: Well, I was not cut off until some four or
five
years ago, I believe; I was not considered in full fellowship; I didn't
consider
myself that way. Q: When
did you resign your office of Bishop? Q: What
time in '58? Defense: You will
see it, before
we get through. A: No,
sir. A: I
understood that Lee had charge of it. Q: Don't
fall back on that. Who gave the orders to tile Indians? A: I know
not. Q: Who
gave the orders that it was to be done? A: Well,
I don't understand. I don't know who gave the orders to the Indians. Q: Who gave the orders in the council, that
the
Indians should be directed to do this thing? A: I don't know whether there was any
particular order
given to that effect- don't recollect of any. Q: What did you mean, then, by saying that
that was
the "first orders"? I want just to correct, what do you mean by the
''first orders"? Were they the orders given in councilor the orders
given
in the field? A: I don't know where the Indians got their
orders for
the act; I was not with the Indians, and I did not hear any order given
to the
Indians. Q: How did you understand that Carl Shirts
had charge
of the Indians on the ground? A: I could not tell who told that, but that
is what
was talked around. That was another matter that was in the air- Q: Did anybody tell you upon the field, or in
that
council, that Carl Shirts had charge of the Indians on the ground? A: I expect they did, but I don't
recollect any
person, particularly. Q: How
did you come to say, in your testimony, that Carl Shirts had charge of
the
Indians? A: I
heard so. A: I
didn't see any wounded around there. Q: Where
was it you saw the wounded Indians? A: I saw
a couple over at Cedar. They was said to be wounded there. Q: These
that you say were Bill and Tom - Chiefs? A: Yes. Q: When did you see this property you speak
of as
being in the possession of the Indians - before or after your departure
to Salt
Lake to attend tire conference? A: No,
sir. Q: Never did? A: No, sir. Q: Did
you hear conversations between any of the parties that had a hand in
that
affair and tire Indians, and talked the matter over. Q: Never hear
anything about that
question? A: I did not. Q: Told you
himself? Did you hear
him do this? A: I
disremember; I cannot tell you how he was
dressed - it is so long ago. Q: You
can't describe it at all? A: No
more than he was dressed some way could not tell what kind of
clothes he did
have on. A: My
memory is better today than it was yesterday. Q: From that point, how was John D. Lee
dressed when
he came from Salt Lake to give the report? I'm simply asking you now
about your
memory. I ask you now if your memory was any better yesterday that it
is today
on that point. A: What President Young said at the time when
he said,
he had better take charge of that property as he was the Indian agent.
That is
all I know about it, now. Q: Did
you hear John D. Lee give any commands to the troops on the
field? A: No, I
don't know as I did on the field. Q: You
say, you was sent down to the Vegas for lead. Who went with you? A: Isaac
C. Haight. A: I hauled her
to Cedar City and smelted it out
by the ton or load. A: Never knew of any trouble with the Indians
about
the property taken. Never knew any trouble by the authorities
concerning it. A: I
could not tell you that, either. They was not a very great tribe. Q: What
tribe of Indians was the chiefs of? A: The
Paiute Tribe of Indians. A: I could not tell, exactly, but it must
have been
over a year, though. [Dr. Forney was sent from the east to retrieve the
children and return them to their surviving relatives. ed.] Q: How many of the children that were first
placed in
your possession on the field of the massacre were afterward delivered
to Dr.
Forney? A: No, sir. A: Yes, sir. Q: Did you see him shortly after the
massacre at Cedar
City, and have a conversation with him concerning the massacre? A: No, sir. Not that I have any knowledge or
recollection of. Defense: ·What officers of the
government, if any, have
You talked with before coming into this Territory, concerning this
case, and
relating to the question of your becoming a witness for the
prosecution upon
this trial? Defense:
Exception. Q: Have you had any conversation with the
United
States Attorney or with any other officer that pretended to have the
authority
to bind the government to protect you from prosecution?
Judge:
Objection
sustained. Q: Have you had any conversation with the
United
States Attorney or either of his assistants previous to your coming on
the
stand as a witness in which conversation they agreed or either of them
agreed
that in the event of your giving a full statement of all you knew
concerning
the matter, the government would not proceed against you or your
individual
acts? Prosecution:
We have no objection to the witness answering that question. Witness:
Well, I say I have. Q: I will
ask you if you agreed - what promises ha1'e been made you on behalf of
the
prosecution here? Prosecution:
We object to that form of question, because they assume without
any foundation
of truth. What
promises have been made to you on behalf of the prosecution or
elsewhere to
induce you to testify, and by whom? Judge: What
promises, if any, were made to you; you can have a ruling on the
question in
that shape if you desire. A: No, sir. A: I say yes. Q: What promises,
if any, were
made to you in Nevada or California to induce you to come here to
testify? Witness: There was no particular assurances
held out
to me, but I was requested to come forth to this court, if I was
required to
testify or whatever might come up. That is all I know about it.
Q: Mr.
Smith, what place did you reside at immediately previous to your
starting to
this place? A: Do
you mean now, at present, on corning here? A: In San
Bernardino County,
twenty-five miles west of Ft. Mohave. A: It's
in the neighborhood of three hundred miles. Q: How long did you reside in that place or
that
vicinity? A: I have been in that vicinity, prospecting
and
mining, since the last of September. Not just at that place, on that
mine, but
in that country around there. Q: This
place where Mr. Cross, or this party, found you? Weren’t you found
there last
spring? A: The
twenty-third of March. A: I stated before, about five years as
near
as I can
recollect. Q: I think you
misunderstand me.
How long since last resided there -last time? A: About
a year last July. I was down at the lower country. Q: Two
years this July, do you mean? A: No,
sir. About a year, when I came back. Q: Where
did your family reside while you had been out prospecting? Q: Any
portion of your family with you at the place spoken of as your last
residence? A: At my
mines? No, sir. Q: Were
you a witness before the Grand Jury that found the indictment in this
case? A: No,
sir. I was not. Q: Have you ever been a witness or given
testimony
concerning this matter, in the Territory of Utah, previous to the
commencement
of this trial? A: No, sir. Q: You
say, in the country where you lived everything was done by virtue of
previous
council. A: Yes,
sir. Q: You
say you took charge of the little children on the field the evening
after the massacre. A: Yes,
sir. Q: When
did you receive orders first to take charge of the children? A: Right there,
from Higbee. A: Well, I can't remember anything particular
about
that; it may have been the understanding, but I had no orders till then
and I
went right to the wagons. Q: You spoke of this wagon train numbering
about -
being from twenty-five to thirty. What character of wagons were they -
what
kind of make, wooden or iron axel? A: I think they
were all wooden axels. Q: What afterwards became of these wagons? A: I don't know. They was left around the
tithing
office there, and afterwards, I understood, sold while I was away. Q: Was
there any other vehicles of the train brought to you, except the
wagons? A: No, sir. A: No,
sir. Q: No
carriages? A: If
there was, I never noticed it. Q: Did
you ever see these guns after they were surrendered? A: If they were, they might have been
gathered up and
taken out to Hamblin's Ranch. I knew nothing about them. A: I was not.
Never at any time. A: Yes,
sir. Q: When
did you receive orders first to take charge of the children? A: Right
there, from Higbee. A: Well, I can't remember anything particular
about
that; it may have been the understanding, but I had no orders till then
and I
went right to the wagons. A: No, sir. Q: Wasn't
there some carriages of the train brought to you? A: If
there was, I never noticed it. Q: What did you do with the guns when you
took charge
of the wagons and the children? A: I don't remember of doing anything with
them; don't
remember of there being any guns there; there might have been, but I
had
nothing to do with them. Q: What
became of the guns that the emigrants surrendered? Q: Did
you ever see these guns after they were surrendered? A: If they were, they might have been
gathered up and
taken out to Hamblin's Ranch. I knew nothing about them. Q: How much did
anybody else get? Q: Can
you state anything about how much money was got there? A: No,
sir. I never knew. Q: I will ask you to state, again, how old
the largest
child was which was saved from that company. A: It would be a hard matter for me to tell.
I suppose,
at the time probably, two years would have been the oldest. Q: And how far was it from where the men were
killed
by your company to the place where the women were killed by the
Indians? A: It was not a great ways; I could not tell;
we were
striding along between the women and wagons. I didn't think it was over
three
hundred yards maybe more, maybe less. Q: What distance was there between the
nearest man -
the man furthest up to tile head of tile men's column, and the hindmost
woman
of the women that was killed? A: No, I didn't see it in that way; the
way that we
stood, and the way that we came, seemed to be a straight way up to the
emigrant
company. Q: Didn't the
wagons with the
children in them pass right up close by you? A: Close by me,
might have been
fifty yards - a hundred yards. A: They all moved along, and came a little
ways below
where we was - the men together up by the side of the wagons. Q: Some
were following right after the tracks of the wagons? A: Yes,
sir. Men following. A: They might
have been coming
up. A: I could not describe that, exactly. Prosecution:
Objected to. A: I don't know that. A: I
could not say that. Q: Can you say
that they came
within a hundred yards of you? A: I don't know
the distance. Defense: That
will do for the
present. Prosecution
redirect examination
of witness: Prosecution: You stated in your
cross-examination that
there was some Indians - hostile Indians up there. If you know, state
how they
came to be there and what they were there for. Q: Where
did you hear that rumor? Q: From
whom? A: From
Mr. Lee that morning that he went out. Q: Did you hear
any soldiers on
the ground speak of it, and if so, what was said? Q: Do you know anything about it? A: I could not say anything more than the
object was what
I saw - some of them doing the killing. A: No, sir. Not
that I recollect. A: He mentioned that they were out there at
that time
- these Indians, and that they had been working against the emigrants.
It was
reported that there were a hundred or so around there, and they had
been
shooting and working against the emigrants, and killing them. Q: I wish now, to call you attention to the
conversation between Brigham Young, yourself and Mr. Lee - and state
that
conversation as you remember it. Defense: We enter an objection, as before, in
regard
to what was said. It is going over the same ground that he was examined
on
before in his examination in chief Prosecution: For
the reason that
the last statements made by the witness, in that conversation, he
related the
first portions of it and omitted the latter. Q: I call your attention to the conversation
I had in
Brigham Young's office. A: That was afterwards. Mr. Lee, and Mr.
Hopkins and
myself was in his office, as I stated before. He took us to the barn,
showed us
his barnyard and fine things, and then he took us in the house,
and mentioned
this thing himself, about this property. He said, "This property of the
Emigrants, Lee will take charge of it, inasmuch as he is the Indian
agent,
now." And then he turned around -looking around to us-and said, "What
you know about this thing, don't even talk about it among yourselves." Defense: I wish to ask one question. You say
Mr. Lee told
you, on the ground, that the Indians had been attacking and fired upon
by the
emigrants. Where was Lee when he told you this? A: This was down at the council, before we
went to do
it. A: Before
the hollow square was formed. |