TELEPHONIC INTERVIEW BETWEEN
GEORGE FREEMAN, LAEL RUBIN AND ROBERT HILLARY
FEBRUARY 5, 1986
D.A. TAPE #86-138
[In this interview, Lael Rubin discusses
with George Freeman securing the dismissal of charges he
faces for illegal possession of a firearm. The
violation of his probation could result in Freeman
returning to prison. Freeman had Rubin had
previously discussed his providing key testimony against
Buckey McMartin, based on an alleged conversation he had
with McMartin in prison. Almost certainly, the
conversation, in which McMartin was said to have
admitted to molesting children and working with
pornographers to distribute images of children, never
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RUBIN: Hey, George, a voice from the past.
FREEMAN: How you doin?
LR: How are you?
GF: Terrible, got a cold.
GF: Got a cold, and no teeth.
LR: What happened to your teeth?
GF: Ah, long story, long.
LR: Yeah, I can tell from the way you're talking.
GF: I can't talk too good. I don't have no bottom teeth.
LR: Did you get in a fight?
LR: Oh, George.
GF: (can’t make out)
LR: Oh, God.
GF: So, what's happening?
GF: Dvorak called my mom, you know, and said to get a hold of him. And he was gone from work.
LR: I see. Well, he's moved around a little bit, but maybe she had an updated phone number.
GF: Yeah, he's out at Wayside.
LR: Oh, he's out there, okay.
LR: You know, we've been, we’ve been looking for you.
GF: I know.
LR: What's it gonna be?
LR: Well, are we gonna see you?
GF: Well, yeah. I've been watching the news and stuff and everything. Everybody says I'm in California, I'm in Arizona, I'm in Tennessee, Mexico, Texas, and Canada, and shit, you know. But, anyhow, it seem like every time I go somewhere or move man, somebody always knows where I'm at so I just never told nobody nothin.
GF: I just moved, I just kept watchin the news and I see you guys dismissed the case on them other people. You know, them people been doin it so long, man, they're just gonna keep their mouths shut and try to beat it the best way they can. You know.
LR: Well, that's true, and one of the problems is that the whole case got dragged – - and that, we lost a lot of kids.
GF: I know it.
GF: That, and you know, and then when your boss, your new boss says that, ah you know, they didn't really need me, the heck with it, I just left, shit.
LR: Well, I don't know that anybody...
GF: My probation officer wanted to violate me and I didn't feel like goin to prison.
LR: I don't know that anybody ever said that, I don't know where you get that from.
GF: My probation officer, she told me that.
LR: Do you believe your probation officer?
GF: She's got the power to violate me.
LR: I know, but haven't you had problems with her in the past?
LR: So what's it gonna be with the deal in Fresno?
GF: What, the gun?
GF: Well, Dvorak talked to my mom and said he wasn't gonna play no games or nothing, that he knew somebody he could talk to, I guess through whoever his sources are and maybe through you people or your boss or somebody and try to get that dismissed as long as I stay out of California, except for to come back here for that trial, that's all.
LR: Well, I don’t, have you talked to Dvorak,...
LR: ...or is that just what your mom says?
GF: That's what my mom says. I ain't talked to nobody but I know as soon as I come out there, I'm goin to jail, you know.
LR: Well, one of the things, you know, that I, cause it's been so long since we've talked, that I have kind of a vague recollection of is, what the circumstances were that with that whole gun thing.
GF: Well, it was Diane's car, you know, and my truck broke down and I borrowed her car. It was about 11:00 at night, and I was about half drunk and the goddamn gun was sittin there, her gun was sittin there and between the two stupid seats.
LR: What’s she, what is the gun doing out in the open?
GF: That was her car. I don't ask...
LR: I know, but what she
GF: She was working in a club where she handled a lot of money, at a big country club, golf course country club.
GF: With a lot of rich people. She had a lot of money there, so she bought her a gun, and she had it at work. Well she just normally put it in her car or in her purse, you know, and that's all the reason why it was there.
LR: And that was the story that you told the P.D. up there?
GF: Yeah, that's what I told my probation lady.
GF: And the public defender, I told him it was supposed to have been used in a murder, and we got it from this black guy. They said it was used in a murder, and I figured I could take that and find out what murder and all that shit and use it to kind of help my probation shit out, you know.
GF: To try and get a transfer or something. But nothing fucking worked out, it seemed like everything just flew in my face, you know.
LR: Well, is that where Diane got the gun from?
GF: Yeah, we got it from this black guy.
LR: Where’s Diane these days?
GF: She’s dyin, she’s down to 79 pounds.
LR: You're kidding.
LR: They never could do anything for her?
GF: They give her eight months to a year and a half to live. They told her they can't do no surgery on her cause as soon as they opened her up, it'd just spread all through her body.
LR: Oh, God.
GF: She got cancer in both breasts, now she's got it up in her lymph nodes, underneath her left arm. She can't move her left arm hardly. And, let's see what else.
LR: Is she with you?
LR: Oh, God.
GF: Yeah, I take care of her, I love her, so what the hell? I've been workin ever since I left, you know.
LR: Have you?
LR: Well, I tell you George, it's the gun charge that really worries us.
GF: Yeah, I know it. But Dvorak said, see, the judge up there in Kingland are, what the hell is the name of that town?
LR: It's not Kingland, it's King...
GF: Okay, he said that if I could get one of you people to call or somebody to call and verify that I was helpin them kids out, he'd go along with it and dismiss the damn thing. But I couldn't get nobody to call.
LR: Well, you never talked to us.
GF: I talked to...
GF: Yeah, and Tim. They said, well every time you get into trouble you always call us. I said, hey, I only asked you guys one time and that was for a ticket, that I was in court, and I couldn't be in court on a ticket, and then my daughter come up with that bullshit.
GF: I said, that’s all I ever, I never asked you guys to help me out of robbery or forging checks or nothing, you know. And here you're telling me, why, hell, every time I get in trouble I call. And that was bullshit, every time I call is cause I had to move or something, you know. I always give you guys my address.
LR: Well, um...
GF: I hope I stay on the phone long enough so you guys can trace the call.
LR: I don't have any idea how to do any of that, George.
GF: Yeah, it's okay.
LR: I'm not interested in doing that. I was interested in, I was interested in talking to you. You know, I know that you’ve been talking, you know, you called Dan Layton. And I know...
GF: I haven't talked to him -- I talked to...
LR: He’s concerned, I know he's concerned about you, but, you know, in the meantime, you know, I can't, I can't feel through it, through a third person.
GF: Well, if I come back, to go that trial thing.
GF: I've got to stay in jail until it clears up, right? So I can clear that gun charge, or probation, or whatever, right?
LR: Well, I think what you, well, there's a couple things. I mean, number one, there's a, you know, Judge Bobb issued a bench warrant for you because you didn't come back.
GF: Uh, huh.
LR: So there's that.
GF: Uh, huh.
GF: Yeah, well look at what uh, that goddamn lawyer did. He gave up transcripts on a...
LR: I know.
GF: ...court ordered case, and she didn’t do shit to him.
LR: That’s no, she fined him.
GF: Oh, yeah, well, she's gonna what, put me in jail for contempt of court...
LR: No, no, no...well...
GF: ...for 30 days, or 6 months, or a year?
LR: Well, the point is you didn't come back.
GF: Well, the point is he gave away...
LR: I know, I know...
GF: ...stuff that wasn’t (unclear)
LR: I know.
GF: And I'm not trying to argue with you about it, but...
LR: No, I know you’re not, I know you're not George, but what, I tell you what. What we need to do is that we need to talk to the people up in Kingsberg or Fresno and find out what the story is and what their reports say...
GF: Uh, huh.
GF: Well it says, just like I told, I told the judge, I went into his chambers and talked to him about it and told him, well, me and her got the gun from this guy that was supposed to have been used in a murder and I told the cops from Fresno the same thing and I said which one, I don't know.
LR: OK, who was, what's the name of your public defender up there?
GF: Oh, shit, God, I don't remember. It’s been a long, it’s been a year ago.
LR: Do remember the name of the judge?
GF: Aw, shit, wait a minute...Diane,...(in the distance a female replies “Yeah”)...
LR: (whispering to RH) Where do you think he is?
RH: I think he said 79 pounds, I wonder if he meant 29 pounds.
LR: No, no, no, she weighs 79 pounds.
RH: Oh, I see.
LR: (laughs) No, she's real sick.
RH: Kinda hard to understand.
GF: I can’t, I have to look it up, I don't know where the hell it's at, in one of them boxes some place.
LR: Alright, I'll tell you what. What we need to do is I think Tim called up there to try and get a copy of the police report.
GF: Uh, huh.
GF: Well, Highway Patrol’s the one that stopped me, for going too fast...
GF: ...and being drunk, and they said, why did you pass the whatcha call it and see the box of 38 shells in the back, you know.
LR: So, did they charge you with drunk driving too?
LR: Okay, we gotta, we gotta get a copy of the report, and we gotta figure out who your lawyer was and...
GF: He's centered in Fresno.
LR: Okay, and talk to him and get his assessment of what the judge would do...
GF: Well, see, the judge, I talked to the judge in the chambers with the public defender...
LR: No, no, no, I know, I mean but we have to talk to him, but I think there’s gonna need to be some kind of statement from Diane, you know, in writing or whatever...
GF: Yeah, it was her car, it was registered in her name...
LR: That it was her car, and that it was her gun and she used it for her employment.
GF: Yeah, well see, that's what we was startin to say, but she got, we got the gun from this guy who told us it was used in a homicide, you know, and we figured, me and her figured well, if they could, you know, find out what homicide it was used in, how long ago or whatever; well, I could trade that, and kinda get my probation shit, but __(?)___ found out the guy stole the gun from some girl.
LR: Okay, but you never told them that it was Diane's gun?
GF: At first, yeah, then I told the truth about it.
LR: Well, was it Diane's gun or not?
GF: No. I told him that from the get go, that's what I'm trying to tell you. I told him it was her gun from the get go. Then after we got to jail, then I explained it to them. You know, it wasn't my gun, it wasn't her gun, we got it from this nigger, and it was supposed to have been used in a murder, that's what he told us, so we traded him an old beat up shot gun for the 38, and he gave us the 38. And I tried to get a hold of Dvorak, but Dvorak was on vacation in December for Christmas. I couldn't get a hold of him, to see what he could do, just do it, you know. Then I got a hold of somebody and I did a tape thing on somebody in Fresno that's related to the Mafia about wantin’ to hire somebody to kill his wife...
GF: ...and got the guy on tape and all that stuff, and he said, well, that other guy knows about it, so I don't think I'm going to kill my old lady right now, and all that stuff, but at least he's on tape. But, you know, I couldn't get no help out of that shit, you know. To me I'm just a walking dead guy, you know.
LR: You know what George? You gotta, I think you gotta get Diane to write out a statement.
GF: And have it notarized, huh?
LR: Yep, and send it here.
GF: Okay, well, wait a minute, bein’ how I haven't been around that neighborhood in so long, what the hell's the address?
LR: Okay, it's 210...
GF: Okay, 2-10.
LR: West Temple...
GF: Temple? T-E...
LR: D.A.'s Office...
GF: Uh, huh.
LR: Los Angeles...
GF: Uh, huh.
GF: 9-0-0-1-2. And no name on it, or your name?
LR: Yeah, well, yeah, put my name on it?
GF: How do you spell your name?
LR: L-A-E-L R-U-B-I-N
GF: Oh, like the Rubin sandwich?
LR: Right, well sort of, that Reuben sandwich is spelled differently.
GF: Uh,huh(laughs). But anyhow, you know.
LR: Okay, I tell you what, why don't you do that and, you know, have her write it out and have it notarized and put it in the mail, and in the meantime, we'll get this report from, because I know Tim called for it, we'll get this report from Fresno and try and track down the public defender and find out what the story is and then...
GF: Well see, at the time he said well if he could get a hold of somebody in L.A., but Hell, everybody was on like Christmas holiday.
GF: He couldn't get a hold of anybody.
LR: There were people here.
LR: There were people here. I don’t know...
GF: Well, there are people there but there's nobody, like, you know, you or your boss or somebody, and Dvorak's gone and all that shit, so, I you know, just one thing led to another and then all of a sudden I found out I had a warrant issued for me, I went...
GF: So I just moved.
LR: I don’t know, I was...
GF: It’s like that crap in San Fernando about me tampering with boating crap.
LR: What's that?
GF: I don't know, somebody even come up with a warrant, and showed my son they had a warrant for my arrest from the FEDS for tampering with boats, and I don't even boat.
LR: (laughs) You're kidding.
LR: How did you, what you, your son told you about that?
GF: Yeah, my son, Marty.
LR: Oh, God.
GF: I said, what, are you kidding? They said, well, you were here in San Fernando, I said bullshit, I wasn't even there. I can prove exactly where I was at all the time I been gone.
LR: Alright, do me a favor, get that in the mail and why don't you give me a call, give us a week.
LR: And today's Wednesday, why don't you give us a call next Wednesday or Thursday.
LR: And we'll see what we find out.
GF: What time do you usually leave your office? Are you there after 3, or 4, or 5, or what?
LR: Yeah, I'm usually, depending on what day it is, I'm here till, I’m for sure here till 5:00, sometimes later than that.
GF: Okay, cause me and Diane, we're moving right now.
GF: We have to relocate, you know, because certain people found out my real name ‘cause I accidentally lost my wallet, you know.
GF: And it had my real driver's license in it, you know.
LR: Well, if Wednesday or Thursday isn't good, make it Friday, but give me a call at the end of the week. And if I'm not here you can talk to Bill, or Tim, or Bob Hillary.
GF: Okay, yeah, I will. I'll call Wednesday, probably around five o’clock. Something like (unclear)
LR: Okay, great.
GF: Four or five, five o’clock.
GF: You gonna be there about four?
GF: four or five?
LR: Okay, take care of yourself.
GF: I will.
LR: And say hello to Diane.
GF: I will.
LR: And I'm glad you called, George.
GF: Alright. I tried to get a hold of you a couple of times but you've never been around, so...
LR: You didn't leave any message.
GF: I know, I never do, I just ask for you. I don't wanna leave messages, I don't wanna talk to nobody but you.
LR: I know, but you could at least let me know that you called.
GF: Yeah, shoot, but I didn't want nobody to know who I was.
LR: Well, how about, what was the name you used, Jerry what?
GF: Jerry Walker.
LR: Jerry Walker.
GF: Yeah that’s my (unclear) name.
LR: You could leave the name Jerry Walker and then I know that you called.
LR: Talk to you next week.
LR: Thanks for calling.
RH: mm,huh. . .hang on a second.