HEARINGS REGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
MONDAY, AUGUST 16, 1948
UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES,
Washington, D. C.
EXECUTIVE SESSION
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2 p. m., in the hearing
room of the Committee on Un-American Activities, Old House Office Building,
Hon. J. Parnell Thomas (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives J. Parnell Thomas, John
McDowell, Richard M. Nixon, and F. Edward Hebert.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator; Louis
J. Russell, William A. Wheeler, investigators; Benjamin Mandel, director
of research; A. S. Poore, editor; and L. E. Howard,
member of the research staff, for the committee.
The CHAIRMAN. The meeting will come to order. The record will show that
a subcommittee is sitting consisting of Mr. McDowell, Mr. Nixon, Mr. Hebert,
and Mr. Thomas. A quorum of the subcommittee is present.
Mr. Stripling, the first witness.
Mr. STRIPLING. Alger Hiss.
The CHAIRMAN. Please stand and raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. HISS. So help me God, I do.
The CHAIRMAN. Sit down, please. Mr. Stripling.
TESTIMONY OF ALGER HISS
Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Hiss, you have previously appeared before the committee
in open session. You are here in response to a telegram which was sent
you last Friday?
Mr. HISS. That is correct. May I make an inquiry?
Mr. STRIPLING. Yes, sir.
Mr. HISS. I would like to be advised what the arrangements are with
respect to a transcript of this particular meeting of the subcommittee.
Will I be entitled to receive a copy of the transcript of this meeting?
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hiss, this is an executive session, and that speaks
for itself that everything is supposed to be right within these four walls.
Therefore, we do not naturally give out the testimony taken in executive
session.
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Chairman, I think it should be said that in the event
the transcript or portions of the transcript are made public, you will
receive a copy in the event it is used, but in the event that it is kept
confidential and not made public, the custom of the committee is not to
furnish a transcript.
The CHAIRMAN. That is correct.
Mr. HISS. That is all....
Mr. NIXON. As of course, Mr. Hiss, you are aware, the committee has
a very difficult problem in regard to the testimony which has been submitted
to the committee by Mr. Chambers and by yourself. The committee feels that
it has the responsibility to resolve that problem as well as it can; and
the purpose of this hearing and of the questions which the members of the
committee will ask at this time is to assist the committee in resolving
that particular problem.
We have come to the conclusion, a conclusion which incidentally I think
had to be reached by the members of the committee under the circumstances,
that the individual who has come before the committee and has given false
testimony must, if possible, answer for that testimony.
For that reason we are going this afternoon to go into a number of
items which I can assure you have a direct bearing on that problem. We
appreciate the fact that you have come down to testify willingly, and I
trust that you will bear with me if some of the questions that I may ask
may seem to be lengthy or even going over ground previously covered because
we want the record to be absolutely straight on the conflicts between testimony
presented by Mr. Chambers and yourself, the points at variance, and the
points, if any, of agreement.
Now, when did you first hear of Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. HISS. The first time I ever heard of Whittaker Chambers to the
best of my knowledge was when two representatives of the Federal Bureau
of Investigation called at my office at 700 Jackson Place, I think, in
the month of May 1947, and among the list of names of people they asked
me if I was acquainted with was the name Whittaker
Chambers.
I remember the name distinctly because they first asked me if I knew
someone named Chambers, and I replied that I did.
I identified a boyhood friend of mine, Robert Chambers, who lived near
me in Baltimore, and who was an agent of the Bureau himself for a while.
He is now with the Customs Bureau. They said they did not mean Bob Chambers.
They asked me if I had ever heard of the name Whittaker Chambers, and
I remember the name stuck in my memory at the moment because it sounded
like a distinctive and unusual name, and I said "No."
His name was 1 of 15 or 20, I would guess, of whom I was asked, of
whom I had never heard.
There were one or two others I was asked about at the time whose names
I had never heard before, and their names-also have remained in my memory.
Mr. NIXON. You testified when you were before the committee before
that in 1936 Mr. Byrnes had--
Mr. HIss. 1946.
Mr. NIXON. I am sorry-1946. Mr. Byrnes had asked you to talk to him
concerning certain allegations made by Members of Congress concerning Communist
affiliations, and at that time you saw Mr. Tamm, of the FBI.
Mr. HISS. I think I talked to Mr. Tamm on the telephone to get the
appointment, and I rather think it was Mr. Ladd rather than Mr.Tamm whom
I actually saw, but that I wouldn't want to have to testify to under oath.
That is my best recollection.
I called Mr. Hoover, and he was out of town, and I was told Mr. Tamm
was second in command. I know Mr. Tamm personally because he was associated
with the San Francisco Conference.
Mr. NIXON. Did Mr. Tamm mention the name of Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. HISS. To the best of my knowledge, no. If
he did, it did not click.
Mr. NIXON. Did Mr. Ladd mention the charges to
which Mr. Byrnes had referred?
Mr. HISS. No. Again, in testifying from recollection
some years back, my recollection is that Mr. Ladd first said did I have
any statement I wish to make? I told him that in the interval between my
telephone call and the day when they were able to see me, which was at
least 1 day later, I had been thinking of any possible basis for any such
charge. I was trying to think of all the associations or the organizations
that I might possibly have been connected with.
To the best of my recollection,
I recited what I had been able to recall that might be of significance.
I was asked very few questions.
I do remember one or two names
of individuals. I was asked if I knew Pressman.
The CHAIRMAN. What was the
name?
Mr. HISS. Pressman.
Mr. STRIPLING. Lee Pressman.
Mr. HISS. I told Mr. Ladd
and someone who was with him in that interview what I have since said and
what is the fact, the extent to which I have known Mr. Lee Pressman.
I was asked, I think, about
one or two other names, and I just frankly don't recall who the others
were, but if the name Chambers was asked of me, I have no recollection
of it, and it didn't make any impression on me at the time.
Mr. NIXON. You definitely
say you could not possibly have heard of the name Whittaker Chambers before
that time?
Mr. HISS. I would say I couldn't
before May 1947, because my recollection is so strong on it.
Mr. NIXON. You didn't hear
the name Whittaker Chambers in 1939?
Mr. HISS. No.
Mr. NIXON. As you have probably
noted from press accounts of the hearings, Whittaker Chambers during the
period that he alleges that he knew you was not known by the name of Whittaker
Chambers. He has testified that he was known by the name of Carl. Do you
recall having known an individual between the years 1934 and 1937 whose
name was Carl ?
Mr. HISS. I do not recall
anyone by the name of Carl that could remotely be connected with the kind
of testimony Mr. Chambers has given. I think I know two or three people
named Carl, one of whom I certainly knew, I would think, as far back as
1937-Carl Spaith.
I don't at the moment think
of anyone else by the name of Carl whom I knew as far back as that. I know
another man named Carl whom I have known more recently.
Mr. NIXON. You knew them as
well by their last names?
Mr. HISS. That is right.
Mr. NIXON. Your testimony
is then that you knew no person by the name of Carl between 1934 and 1937?
Mr. HISS. Merely by the name
of Carl-absolutely.
Mr. NIXON. Your testimony,
then, is that you have never known an
individual solely by the name
of Carl?
Mr. HISS. That is correct,
Mr. Nixon; that is my testimony.
Mr. NIXON. Do you know J.
Peters?
Mr. HISS. I do not.
Mr. NIXON. Have you ever known
a man by the name of Peter?
Mr. HISS. I have never known
anybody solely by the name of Peter.
I have known some people by
the name of Peter and people whose last name was Peters.
Mr. NIXON. Through the years
1934 to 1937, did you know anybody named Peter?
Mr. HISS. I would like to
reply to that perhaps with clarity the same way I did with the question
about the name Carl. Between the years 1934 and 1937 I knew no one who
was known to me only by the name of Peter. I knew no one who was named
J. Peter or J. Peters.
The only people whose first
names were Peter were personal friends with no possible connection. I have
known some people whose first name was Peter.
Mr. NIXON. Now, Mr. Hiss,
there is some testimony in your previous record before the committee concerning
your acquaintanceship with Henry Collins.
Mr. HISS. Yes, sir.
Mr. NIXON. My question is
now: do you recall ever having gone to the apartment of Henry Collins on
St. Matthew's Court?
Mr. HISS. I certainly wouldn't
want to say I had never been there
because, as I testified before,
I have known Mr. Collins since we were
boys. I have visited in his
place of abode, whether it happened to be
an apartment or a house, and
he in mine certainly since we again knew
each other when I was in law
school in 1929.
Where is St. Matthew's Court?
Can somebody identify the place?
Mr. STRIPLING. Near Dupont
Circle.
Mr. McDOWELL. I think it is
a little north of the circle about a
block.
Mrs. HOWARD. Between Longfellow
Building and St. Matthew's
Church.
Mr. HISS. I think Henry Collins
had ah apartment in that neighborhood and I think I have been in that apartment.
I have no clear
recollection.
Mr. NIXON. Those were social
occasions _
Mr. HISS. entirely.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall your
brother being there at the same
time _
Mr. HISS. No. My brother doesn't
know him as well as I do, so far
as I recall. He may not know
him at all.
Mr. NIXON. You could have
been in the apartment of Henry Collins at St. Matthew's Court _
Mr. HISS. That is a very fair
way of stating it.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall whether
on any occasion that you were
in that apartment that Mr.
Lee Pressman was there _
Mr. HISS. Again I don't want
to say that that didn't occur because
I knew Pressman while I was
in the Department of Agriculture, as I
had known him previously,
and it might very well have been at any
number of social occasions
when he was present. I wouldn't want
to testify that I wasn't at
any particular one. I may very likely have
been in this apartment of
Mr. Collins. I may have been in that apartment. at the time Mr. Pressman
was also present, only on social
occasions.
Mr. NIXON. Then there were
occasions when Mr. Pressman and
you were with Mr. Collins_
Mr. HISS. That I would not
be able to testify to positively because
I don't actually recall the
conjunction because my friendship with
Collins was a personal friendship
and my friendship with Pressman
was what I could properly
describe as a business friendship. I had
known him only as a lawyer.
Mr. NIXON. If there had been
occasions, let us say, six or more occasions, on which Mr. Pressman and
you were together in Henry Collins'
apartment, would you remember
for sure _
Mr. HISS. I think I would.
What I really have in mind, to be absolutely explicit, is that if Mr. Collins
had 15 or 20 people in for a drink
or cocktails, or a larger
number, and Mr. Pressman had been one of
them, I would not be able
to testify now positively yes; and if he
wasn't there, I wouldn't be
able to testify positively now that he
wasn't.
It would not have struck me
as unusual if he had been, because
various officials of the Government
who were here in the early days
of the New Deal met at social
parties all over the city of Washington
quite frequently, and I certainly
am sure that I have been to parties
as well as official conferences
where Mr. Pressman was present.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall Mr.
Nathan Witt having been at the
apartment of Henry Collins
when you were there _
Mr. HISS. I have no recollection
of it.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall Mr.
John Abt having been at the apartment of Henry Collins when you were there
_
Mr. HISS. I have no recollection
of it, but again I would Bot want
to deny ever having been on
a social occasion in Mr. Collins' apartment
when either of those men might
have been present.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall Mr.
Kramer ever having been there when
you were there?
Mr. HISS. I have no recollection.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall Mr.
Perlo having been there?
Mr. HISS. I don't even think
I know Mr. Perlo. I certainly don't
recall him having been there.
MI'. Nixon, may I just interpose
one thing?
Mr. NIXON. Yes.
Mr. HISS. My recollection
is that Henry Collins was living not in
an apartment but in a house
with four or five roommates, four or five
young men in Government who
took it together somewhere in the
Dupont Circle region at the
time when he first came down to Washington.
Mr. NIXON. During the period
of approximately 1934-38 did you
ever pay any money to Henry
Collins?
Mr. HISS. I don't recall ever
having paid him any money for any
purpose, even a personal transaction,
Mr. Nixon.
Mr. NIXON. I am now showing
you two pictures of Mr. Whittaker Chambers, also known as Carl, who testified
that he knew you between the years 1934-37, and that he saw you in 1939.
I ask you now, after looking
at those pictures, if you can remember that person either as Whittaker
Chambers or as Carl or as any other individual you have met.
Mr. HISS. May I recall to
the committee the testimony I gave in the public session when I was shown
another photograph of Mr. Whittaker Chambers, and I had prior to taking
the stand tried to get as many newspapers that had photographs of Mr. Chambers
as I could.
I testified then that I could
not swear that I had never seen the man whose picture was shown me. Actually
the face has a certain familiarity. I think I also testified to that.
It is not according to the
photograph a very distinctive or unusual face. I would like very much to
see the individual face to face. I had hoped that would happen before.
I still hope it will happen today.
I am not prepared to say that
I have never seen the man whose pictures are now shown me. I said that
when I was on the stand when a different picture was shown me. I cannot
recall any person with distinctness and definiteness whose picture this
is, but it is not completely unfamiliar.
Whether I am imagining that
or not I don't know, but I certainly wouldn't want to testify without seeing
the man, hearing him talk, getting some much more tangible basis for judging
the person and the personality.
Mr. NIXON. Would your answer
be any different if this individual were described to you as one who had
stayed overnight in your house on several occasions?
Mr. HISS. I think, Mr. Nixon,
let me say this: In the course of my service in Government from 1933 to
1947 and the previous year 1929-30, and as a lawyer I have had a great
many people who have visited in my house.
I have tried to recall in
the last week or so anyone who would know my house whom I wouldn't know
very well: There are many people that have come to my house on social occasions
or on semibusiness occasions whom I probably wouldn't recall at all.
As far as staying overnight
in my house is concerned--
Mr. NIXON. On several occasions.
Mr. HISS. On several occasions.
Mr. NIXON. On several occasions.
Mr. HISS. I can't believe,
Mr. Nixon, that anyone could have stayed in my house when I was there--
Mr. NIXON. When you were there.
Mr. HISS. -Overnight on several
occasions without my being able to recall the individual; and if this is
a picture of anyone, I would find it very difficult to believe that that
individual could have stayed in my house when I was there on several occasions
overnight and his :face not be more :familiar than it is.
Mr. Nixon--
Mr. NIXON. Yes.
Mr. HISS. I don't want to
suggest any innovations in your procedure, but I do want to say specifically
that I do hope I will have an opportunity actually to see the individual.
Mr. NIXON. It is going to
be arranged. I might say that before arranging the meeting, we want to
be certain that there IS no question of mistaken identity, as well as possible,
and also that we had a clear conflict on certain pieces of testimony that
had been given by both sides, and that we are getting now.
Mr. HISS. Yes, sir.
Mr. NIXON. I might say this,
too: That Mr. Chambers, as you may be aware of newspaper accounts, appeared
in executive session before us on Saturday.
Mr. HISS. Saturday a week
ago, I think.
Mr. NIXON. Just 2 days after
you appeared.
Mr. HISS. I saw newspaper
accounts of that.
Mr. NIXON. At that time we
went into the situation with him, showed him pictures of you, and he declared
without question you were the man.
For that reason we wanted
to be sure that you had the same opportunity before we went into open session.
Obviously, as you can see, an open session will involve a considerable
amount of publicity, and we were thinking that if that could be avoided,
that it should be
avoided. It is quite apparent
now, even so :far as we have gone, that eventually that is going to occur,
but I wanted to go into a few more questions here first.
Now, you have never
paid any money to Peters?
Mr. HISS. No.
Mr. NIXON. Never paid any
money to Carl?
Mr. HISS. Never paid any money
to Carl.
Mr. NIXON. Never paid any
money to Henry Collins that you can recall?
Mr. HISS. I can't recall it
even on a personal basis.
Mr. NIXON. Never paid dues
to the Communist Party?
Mr. HISS. No.
Mr. NIXON. Your testimony
now is that you are not a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. HISS. That is correct.
Mr. NIXON. Never been a member
of the Communist Party?
Mr. HISS. Never been a member
of the Communist Party.
Mr. NIXON. Or of any underground
organization connected with the Communist Party?
Mr. HISS. Not any underground
organizations connected with the Communist Party.
Mr. NIXON. Do you have any
children, Mr. Hiss?
Mr. HISS. I have two children.
Mr. NIXON. You have two children.
Could you give us their ages?
Mr. HISS. One will be 22-he
is my stepson-will be 22 September 19 next. His name is Timothy Hobson.
He has been my stepson since he was 3 years old. I was married in 1929.
I have one other son who is
now 7. He was 7 the day when I testified publicly before this committee,
August 5. He was born August 5, 1941. His name is Anthony Hiss.
Mr. NIXON. He was born after
this period of 1934-37, which is in question.
Mr. HISS. He was born after
the period you are talking about.
Mr. NIXON. Did you testify
before what your wife's name was?
Mr. HISS. Her name was Priscilla
Fansler, her maiden name. Her first marriage was to a Mr. Hobson, H-o-b-s-o-n.
Mr. NIXON. Where did she come
from? What town?
Mr. HISS. She was born in
Evanston, Ill., but spent most of her early life outside of Philadelphia.
Mr. NIXON. In Paoli?
Mr. HISS. Frazer.
Mr. NIXON. Is that near Paoli?
Mr. HISS. It is on the main
line not far from there. She went to school there and she went to school
actually, I think, in Bryn Mawr, as well as to college in Bryn Mawr.
Mr. McDOWELL. Frazer and Paoli
are a few miles apart?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. Did she live there
on a farm?
Mr. HISS. Her father was in
the insurance business, and he acquired a small place-I suppose it could
be called a farm-from which he commuted to his insurance business.
Mr. NIXON. Would it be possible,
Mr. Hiss, for Mrs. Hiss to appear in executive session to corroborate your
testimony?
Mr. HISS. It would be possible
for her to appear in executive session. I believe she would corroborate
my testimony.
Mr. NIXON. As you can see,
the more corroboration we have for your
story, the better it is going
to be from your standpoint, and also from the standpoint of the committee.
I will say that both you and Mr. Chambers are as convincing witnesses as
I have ever seen. I have so stated publicly, but we would like to hear
Mrs. Hiss, if that is possible.
Mr. HISS. That certainly is
possible. It is her privilege.
Mr. NIXON. Is she in town?
Mr. HISS. She is in Peacham,
Vt., where we spend our summers.
Mr. NIXON. Would it be possible
to hear her tomorrow? I realize it is short notice.
Mr. HISS. She would have to
catch the night train.
Mr. HERBERT. I can't hear
you.
Mr. HISS. Mrs. Hiss is now
in Peacham, Vt., a town about 50 miles this side of the Canadian border
in northern Vermont. It would be possible For her to take the night train
down, which is the night train I came down on last night. I spent the week-end
in Peacham. It has been our custom to spend the summers in Peacham for
about 10 years.
My -family spends the summers
there, and I try to spend week-ends with them when I can.
Mrs. Hiss would either have
to bring 7-year-old Tony with her, or try to find someone to stay with
him while she came down.
Mr. NIXON. I realize the difficulty
involved and, as I say, we want to avoid, in -fact, I would say, two things:
We want to avoid a public session in this case and also we want to avoid
any publicity on it, but we would like to hear Mrs. Hiss in executive session
tomorrow afternoon, it possible.
Mr. HISS. I think the fair
thing under the circumstances would be for me to try to reach her by telephone.
We have no telephone in the house in Peacham. She would have to take the
message in the general store.
Mr. NIXON. If you could do
that-and, incidentally, we will make the phone available because we want
to pay the charges ourselves-it would be greatly appreciated by the committee.
Mr. HISS. Would you like me
to telephone her now, Mr. Nixon?
Mr. NIXON. We could do this,
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Stripling has just suggested that a subcommittee could meet
Mrs. Hiss, for example, in New York it that would be more convenient.
Mr. HISS. The same train gets
into New York at 8: 10 when it is on time that gets in here at 1:10.
Mr. NIXON. In other words,
we could hear her tomorrow morning if we were in New York.
Mr. HISS. That is correct,
and tomorrow afternoon if you sit here.
Mr. NIXON. That would mean
she wouldn't have to come clear to Washington with the youngster and also
it would mean that there Washington with the youngster and also it would
mean that would be absolutely no publicity, which I must say we are very
anxious about in this case. After the hearing, if you will make the call,
we could arrange to meet her in New York.
Mr. HISS. Would you tell me
where you would like to meet her, and I would like the privilege of calling
her now because she is going to have to make arrangements. We are about
35 miles from the train.
I am driven over by a taxi
driver, and just what his engagements are I don't know. I imagine she would
want someone to stay with Tony while she is away-one of her friends.
The CHAIRMAN. Let's not do
that at this time. Let's proceed with the questioning and then go ahead
with it.
Mr. NIXON. I don't think we
will take too much longer, Mr. Hiss possibly 30 minutes.
Now, is your son Timothy still
living with you?
Mr. HISS. No; my son Timothy
is now living on his own as an independent earning male.
Mr. NIXON. Where is he at
the present time?
Mr. HISS. I think he is on
his way back from California at the present time. He was expecting to return
on the 16th, and I believe today is the 16th.
Mr. NIXON. Is he living in
New York?
Mr. HISS. He is living in
New York.
Mr. NIXON. Could you give
us the address of your son in New York?
Mr. HISS. Mr. Nixon, you are
asking me about a subject which is one of rather deep concern to me.
Mr. NIXON. I understand.
Mr. HISS. My son served in
the Navy, V-12. He went in as a very young man. When he left the Navy,
he did not wish to go on with college. I did wish him to go on. He had
had some college while in the Navy V-12 program. He feels the need of independence
of his parents at the present time. He is being what people in Vermont
call not only independent, but "indegoddampendent." That is Vermontism.
I have an address from my
son which I am told is not his present address. He has not told me or his
mother in the past few months what his present address is. I expect he
will do so. This is not the first time in the last year when he has changed
address and told me
after the event instead of before. I believe
he tried to reach me by telephone the night before I testified here, because
a phone call came in for me at the hotel from Los Angeles and I couldn't
figure who it was and didn't know he was in Los Angeles at the time. I
have since learned he was in Los Angeles and I believe he was calling me.
I learned from the same person
who knew he was in Los Angeles that he would be back in New York on the
16th. I don't know of my own knowledge. I can give you the address in New
York. I don't think you can reach him there.
I wonder if you would mind
if I gave you instead the address of his doctor, because he has been consulting
a psychiatrist in the last couple of years.
Mr. NIXON. Would the doctor
know where he is?
Mr. HISS. He will get in touch
with the doctor as soon as he returns.
The doctor has his other address,
and I didn't think it appropriate to ask the doctor for his address. It
is Dr. Abram Kardiner. You will understand why this is a very difficult
subject to talk about because I love my stepson very deeply. Many people
take an exaggerated view of what psychiatric assistance means.
Mr. NIXON. You can be sure,
Mr. Hiss, that there will be absolutely no statement whatever concerning
these statements.
Mr. HISS. Dr. Kardiner is
now on his vacation, but would be glad to come to New York and would be
glad to answer the telephone. I am sure as a physician any call to his
office in New York-he lives at 1100 Park Avenue, which is the corner of
Eighty-ninth Street and Park Avenue. I think I have his number in the country,
but I am sure any call to his office they will immediately tell you how
to reach him at his country place.
Mr. STRIPLING. How do you
spell his full name?
Mr. HISS. A-b-r-a-m K-a-r-d-i-n-e-r.
Mr. STRIPLING. 1100 Park Avenue?
Mr. HISS. 1100 Park Avenue,
New York.
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Hiss, could
you give the committee the name of any servants you had during the period
1934 to 1937?
Mr. STRIPLING. May I interrupt?
Does he go under the name of Timothy Hiss or Timothy Hobson?
Mr. HISS. Timothy Hobson.
Mr. Nixon, may I raise a question
at this point?
Mr. NIXON. Certainly.
Mr. HISS. I have been angered
and hurt by one thing in the course of this committee testimony, and that
was by the attitude which I think Mr. Mundt took when I was testifying
publicly and which, it seems to me, you have been taking today, that you
have a conflict of testimony between two witnesses-,-I restrained myself
with some difficulty from commenting on this at the public hearing, and
I would like to say it on this occasion, which isn't a public hearing.
Mr. NIXON. Say anything you
like.
Mr. HISS. It seems there is
no impropriety in saying it. You today and the acting chairman publicly
have taken the attitude when you have two witnesses, one of whom is a confessed
former Communist, the other is me, that you simply have two witnesses saying
contradictory things as between whom you find it most difficult to decide
on
credibility.
Mr. Nixon, I do not know what
Mr. Whittaker Chambers testified to your committee last Saturday. It is
necessarily my opinion of him from what he has already said that I do know
that he is not capable of telling the truth or does not desire to, and
I honestly have the feeling that details of my personal life which I give
honestly can be used to my disadvantage by Chambers then ex post facto
knowing those facts.
I would request that I hear
Mr. Chambers' story of his alleged knowledge of me. I have seen newspaper
accounts, Mr. Nixon, that you spent the week end-whether correct or not,
I do not know-at Mr. Chambers' farm in New Jersey.
Mr. NIXON. That is quite incorrect.
Mr. HISS. It is incorrect.
Mr. NIXON. Yes, sir. I can
say, as you did a moment ago, that I have never spent the night with Mr.
Chambers.
Mr. HISS. Now, I have been
cudgeling my brains, particularly on the train coming down this morning,
and I had 3 or 4 hours on the train between New York and Washington, as
to who could have various details about my family. Many people could..
Mr. Nixon, I do not wish to
make it easier for anyone who, for whatever motive I cannot understand,
is apparently endeavoring to destroy me, to make that man's endeavors
any easier. I think in common fairness to my own self-protection and that
of my family and my family's good name and my own, I should not be asked
to give details which somehow he may hear and then may be able to use as
if he knew them before. I would like him to say all he knows about me now.
What I have done is public record, where I have lived is public record.
Let him tell you all he knows, let that be made public,
and then let my record be checked against those
facts instead of my being asked, Mr. Nixon, to tell you personal facts
about myself which, if they come to his ears, could sound very persuasive
to other people that he had known me at some prior time.
Mr. NIXON. The questions I
have asked you to date, Mr. Hiss, if you will recall them, have all been
facts that could be corroborated by third parties. Now, the question of
whether or not, the question of who your servants were, I will tell you
very frankly it is purely for the purpose of corroboration and it will
be the intention of the committee, if possible, to find one of the servants
to see whether or not they will corroborate the story.
Now you, of course, are under no compulsion to
give the committee the names of the servants, but the purpose is that.
Now, the second point I wish
to make is this: Of course, there is a very serious implication in your
statement, and that is that the committee's purpose in questioning you
today is to get information with which we can coach Mr. Chambers so that
he can more or less build a web around you.
Mr. HISS. Mr. Nixon, I meant
no such implication.
Mr. NIXON. You can be very
sure when I say this testimony is going to be in executive session, it
will be. The same assurance was given to Mr. Chambers.
Mr. HISS. May I please, before
that point gets cold-I meant no such implication. You have identified a
number of people who are present in the room. A record is being kept. The
people in this gentleman's office will process the record, a number of
people that none of us here can be sure of now will see this record and
will have the information
which is contained in it. You are dealing with
something, Mr. Nixon, which is very important to you as an official. You
are dealing with something which is very important to me not only as a
former official and one interested in the security of the United States,
but you are also dealing with something which affronts me personally in
a way which it does not affect the members of this committee personally.
Mr. STRIPLING. May I say something?
Mr. Hiss, I can assure you
that as far as the members of the committee I have talked to are concerned,
they have a very open mind on this thing and I certainly do, but this testimony
you speak of has already been turned over to the United States attorney,
including the executive testimony.
Mr. HISS. Certainly.
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Chambers' testimony
has.
Mr. STRIPLING. We just got
this picture. I listened to his testimony in New York and I can assure
you that there was no prearrangement or anything else with Mr. Chambers,
but here is what he did. He sat there and testified for hours. He said
he spent a week in your house and he just rattled off details like that.
He has either made a study of your life in great detail or he knows you-,
one or the other, or he is incorrect.
Mr. HISS. Could I ask you
to ask him some questions?
Mr. STRIPLING. Here is a larger
picture. Let the record show this larger picture taken by the Associated
Press photo on August 3, 1948, of Mr. Mundt and Mr. Whittaker Chambers
and, as the record previously stated, Mr. Chambers is much heavier now
than he was in 1937 or 1938.
Does this picture refresh
your memory in any way, Mr. Hiss?
Mr. HISS. It looks like the
very same man I had seen in the other pictures of, and I see Mr. Mundt
and him in the same picture. The face is definitely not an unfamiliar face.
Whether I am imagining it, whether it is because he looks like a lot of
other people, I don't know, but I have never known anyone who had the relationship
with me that this man has testified to and that, I think, is the important
thing here, gentlemen. This man may have known me, he may have been in
my house. I have had literally hundreds of people in my house in the course
of the time I lived in Washington.
The issue is not whether this
man knew me and I don't remember him. The issue is whether he had a particular
conversation that he has said he had with me and which I have denied and
whether I am a member of the Communist Party or ever was, which he has
said and which I have denied.
If I could see the man face
to face, I would perhaps have some inkling as to whether he ever had known
me personally.
I have met within the past
week a man who said he worked on the same staff in a confidential relationship
at San Francisco that I did who definitely knew me, and I have no recollection
of ever having seen that man.
The CHAIRMAN. May I ask a
few questions?
Mr. NIXON. Certainly.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hiss, would
you be able to recall a person if that person positively had been in your
house three or four times, we will say, in the last 10 years?
Mr. HISS. 1 would say that
if he had spent the night--
Mr. STRIPLING. Ten years?
Mr. NIXON. Fifteen years.
The CHAIRMAN. All right.
Mr. HISS. I would say if he
had spent the night how many times did you say?
Mr. STRIPLING. He spent a
week there.
Mr. HISS. A whole week at
a time continuously?
Mr. STRIPLING. Yes.
Mr. HISS. And I was there
at the same time?
Mr. STRIPLING. Yes.
Mr. HISS. Mr. Chairman, I
could not fail to recall such a man if he were now in my presence.
The CHAIRMAN. Wait a minute.
You are positive then that if Mr. X spent a week in your house in the past
15 years you would recognize him today, assuming that Mr. X looks today
something like what he looked then?
Mr. HISS. Exactly, if he hadn't
had a face lifting.
The CHAIRMAN. No doubt in
your mind?
Mr. HISS. I have no doubt
whatsoever.
The CHAIRMAN. Now, here is
a man who says he spent a week in your house in the last 15 years. Do you
recognize him?
Mr. HISS. I do not recognize
him from that picture.
Mr. NIXON. Did that man spend
a week in your house in the last 15 years?
Mr. HISS. I cannot say that
man did, but I would like to see him.
The CHAIRMAN.
You say you cannot believe, but I would like to have a little more definite
answer if you could make it more definite. Would you say he did or did
,.not spend a week in your house?
Mr. HISS. Mr. Chairman, I
hope you will not think I am being unreasonable when I say I am not prepared
to testify on the basis of a photograph. On the train coming down this
morning I searched my recollection of any possible person that this man
could be confused with or could have got information from about me.
The CHAIRMAN. Then you are
not prepared to testify on this subject from a photograph?
Mr. HISS. I am not prepared
to testify on the basis of a photograph. I would want to hear the man's
voice.
The CHAIRMAN.
If the man himself came in here, you would be able to say yes or no?
Mr. HISS. I think I would,
sir.
The CHAIRMAN. You think you
would.
Mr. HISS. I can't believe
a man would have changed as much as that, and I am absolutely prepared
to testify that nobody, that man or any other man, had any such conversation
with me in my house or anywhere else as he has testified to.
Mr. STRIPLING. What conversations
did he testify he had with you in your house?
Mr. HISS. Mr. Chambers, according
to the record that I read, he said that he came to my house and pled with
me to break with the Communist Party, and that I refused, and that I had
tears in my eyes, and that the reason I gave was something about the communist
Party line.
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Hiss, let me
explain this. Mr. Chambers, as indicated, did testify that he spent a week
in your house. He also testified to other facts concerning his acquaintanceship
with you-alleged facts, I should say-and I want to point out that the committee
by getting answers to completely objective questions from you will be in
a position to go certainly to third parties and to find out whether or
not Mr. Chambers has committed perjury.
Now, on one point it is pretty
clear that you have indicated that Mr. Chambers must have committed perjury
because he said he spent a week in your house.
Now, these other matters to
which Mr. Chambers has testified involve the same type of testimony. I
want to say when Mr. Chambers appeared, he was instructed that every answer
he gave to every question would be material and he was instructed off the
record before that that a material question would subject him to perjury.
So consequently, as
you see, a matter of membership in the Communist
Party is one thing because that is a matter which might be and probably
would be concealed, but a matter of objective items concerning: his relationship
with you, his alleged relationship with you, can be confirmed in some cases
by third parties and that, frankly, is the purpose of these questions.
Mr. HISS. May I say one thing
for the record?
Mr. NIXON. Certainly.
Mr. HISS. I have written a
name on this pad in front of me of a person whom I knew in 1933 and 1934
who not only spent some time in my house but sublet my apartment. That
man certainly spent more than a week, not while I was in the same apartment.
I do not recognize the photographs as possibly being: this man. If I hadn't
seen the morning papers with an account of statements that he knew the
inside of my house, I don't think I would even have thought of this name.
I want to see Chambers face to face and see if he can be this individual.
I do not want and I don't think I ought to be asked to testify now that
man's name and everything I can remember about him. I have written the
name on this .piece of paper. I have given the name to two friends of mine
before I came in this hearing. I can only repeat, and perhaps I am being
overanxious about the possibility
of unauthorized disclosure of testimony, that
I don't think in my present frame of mind that it is fair to my position,
my own protection, that I be asked to put down here of record personal
facts about myself which, if they came to the ears of someone who had for
no reason I can understand a desire to injure me, would assist him in that
endeavor.
Mr. NIXON. This man who spent
the time in 1933 and 1934 is still a man with whom you are acquainted?
Mr. HISS. He is not.
Mr. NIXON. And where were
you living at that time?
Mr. HISS. He was not named
Carl and not Whittaker Chambers.
Mr. NIXON. Where were you
living at that time?
Mr. HISS. I have again written
down here to the best of my recollection because I have not checked down
with leases-this is something I did on the train coming down and the leases
are in my house in New York-where I believed I lived from June of 1933
until September 1943. Again, Mr. Nixon, if I give the details of where
I was, it is going to be very easy if this information gets out for someone
to say then ex post facto, "I saw Hiss in such and such a house." Actually,
all he has to do is look it up in the telephone directory and find where
it is.
The CHAIRMAN. The chairman
wants to say this: Questions will be asked and the committee will expect
to get very detailed answers to the questions. Let's not ramble all around
the lot here. You go ahead and ask questions and I want the witness to
answer.
Mr. NIXON. Your testimony
is that this man you knew in 1933 and 1934 was in one of the houses you
lived in?
Mr. HISS. I sublet my apartment
to the man whose name I have written down.
Mr. NIXON. But you were not
there at the same time?
Mr. HISS. I didn't spend a
week in the same apartment, with him. He did spend a day or two in my house
when he moved in.
Mr. NIXON. This was the apartment
you lived in between 1933 and 1934?
Mr. HISS. It is exactly that
apartment-1934 and 1935.
Mr. NIXON. Between 1934 and
1935?
Mr. HISS. That is right.'
Mr. NIXON. When you sublet
your apartment? There was no other apartment and you can't testify as to
what apartment that was?
Mr. HISS. I can testify to
the best of my recollection. If this committee feels, in spite of what
I have said-
The CHAIRMAN. Never mind feelings.
You let Mr. Nixon ask the questions and you go ahead and answer it.
Mr. HISS. I want to be sure
Mr. Nixon definitely wants me to answer responsively in spite of my plea
that I don't think he should ask me. But if he does-Mr. Nixon also asked
me some questions in the public hearing that I didn't want to answer, and
I took the same position that if Mr. Nixon insisted on an answer after
he knew my position, I will answer. I will give every fact of where I lived.
Mr. STRIPLING. Let the record
show, Mr. Hiss, you brought up this ex post facto business. Your testimony
comes as ex post facto, testimony to the testimony of Mr. Chambers. He
is already on record, and I am not inferring that you might know what he
testified to, but certainly the United States attorney's office has several
copies.
Mr. HISS. I do not and made
no attempt to find out.
Mr. NIXON. Not only does the
United States attorney's office have copies of Mr. Chambers' testimony
before us on the subject-and you can confirm that by calling Mr. Morris
Fay of that office, because he has two copies; he requested and received,
and he will receive this testimony today. He will receive this testimony
today, because I will tell you that he asked for it just 30 minutes before
you walked into this room, and he will get it just as soon as we have completed
this case. Now, quite obviously, I think that you can see that we are not
attempting at this time to have you testify to facts with which we are
going to brief Mr. Chambers. .What we are trying
to do is test the credibility of Mr. Chambers, and you are the man who
can do it, and you can help us out by answering these questions and, frankly,
I must insist.
Mr. HISS. If you insist, I
will, of course, answer. May I make one observation?
Mr. NIXON. Yes..
Mr. HISS. Mr. Chambers, I
believe, appeared in executive session before this committee before he
testified publicly; is that correct?
Mr. STRIPLING. No, sir.
Mr. HISS. There was a press
report to that effect. Did he not meet with you in executive session?
Mr. STRIPLING. You mean the
morning of the session?
Mr. McDOWELL. The session
lasted about 2 minutes. No testimony other than--
Mr. STRIPLING. The committee
saw him--
Mr. McDOWELL. It was a matter
of getting his name and where he worked.
Mr. HISS. Did you not know
his testimony-that he was going to testify about me?
Mr. STRIPLING. No.
Mr. HISS. After the public
testimony, this committee met further with Mr. Chambers, who was able as
of that date, I assume, to add new testimony that you did not have before,
which you will excuse me for saying, was ex post facto my testimony.
Mr. NIXON. Forty-eight hours
after your testimony.
Mr. HISS. That is right, and
my testimony was public testimony.
Mr. NIXON. That is correct.
Mr. HISS. He has now testified
and I would assume that the United States attorney's office will want further
testimony from him.
Mr. NIXON. And from you.
Mr. HISS. I certainly assume
so and hope so. If what I testify to in this committee today through no
fault of any official of this committee or any member of its staff comes
to his attention, as my public testimony, of course, came to his attention,
he will again be able to testify ex post facto to my testimony of today.
Now, I want that on the record.
If you think, as I don't regard this body as an inquisitorial body determining
crime, if you wish to ask me detailed questions and think it is your duty
to ask me, it is my duty to answer, and I have said all I want to say.
I am not evading the question.
Mr. HEBERT. Mr. Hiss, let
me say this to you now-and this is removed of all technicalities, it is
just a man-to-man impression of the whole situation. I think it is pertinent.
I don't surrender my place
on this committee to any individual who has an open mind, particularly
regarding you and Mr. Chambers. I am not interested in who is lying except
to the extent that it will only give us an insight to further the case
and that we are about to find out whether espionage was in effect in this
country to the detriment of the security of this country.
I do not take the stand and
never have taken the stand in this committee that anything is involved
other than to get to the facts. I have tried just as hard in the public
hearings to impeach those witnesses who are assumed to be so-called committee
witnesses as I have
tried to impeach the other witnesses. I think
the record will speak for that.
We did not know anything Mr.
Chambers was going to say. I did not hear your name mentioned until it
was mentioned in open hearing.
Mr. HISS. I didn't know that.
Mr. HEBERT. As I say, I am
not trying to be cagey or anything, but trying to put it on the line as
certainly one member of this committee who has an open mind and up to this
point don't know which one of the two is lying, but I will tell you right
now and I will tell you exactly what I told Mr. Chambers so that will be
a matter of record, too:
Either you or Mr. Chambers
is lying.
Mr. HISS. That is certainly
true.
Mr. HEBERT. And whichever
one of you is lying is the greatest actor that America has ever produced.
Now, I have not come to the conclusion yet. which one of you is lying and
I am trying to find the facts. Up to a few moments ago you have been very
open, very
cooperative. Now, you have hedged. You may be
standing on what you consider your right and I am not objecting to that.
I am not pressing you to identify a picture when you should be faced with
the man. That is your right.
Now, as to this inquiry which
you make much over, and not without cause, perhaps, we met Mr. Chambers
48 hours after you testified in open session. Mr. Chambers did not know
or have any inclination of any indication as to the questions that we were
going to ask him, and we probed him, as Mr. Stripling says, for hours and
the committee, the three of us-Mr. Nixon, Mr. McDowell, Mr. Stripling,
and myself-and we literally ran out of questions. There wasn't a thing
that came to our minds that we didn't ask him about, these little details,
to probe his own testimony or rather to test his own credibility.
There couldn't have been a
possible inkling as to what we were going to say about
minor details, and he could not have possibly
by the farthest stretch of the imagination prepared himself to answer because
he didn't know where the questions were coming from and neither did we
because we questioned him progressively; so how he could have prepared
himself to answer these details which we now, and Mr. Nixon has indicated,
we are now checking and for the sake of corroboration-for my own part I
can well appreciate the position you are in, but if I were in your position,
I would do everything I humanly could to prove that Chambers is a liar
instead of me.
Mr. HISS. I intend to.
Mr. HEBERT. And that is all
we are trying to do here. Further than that, I recognize the fact that
this is not an inquisitorial body to the extent of determining where the
crime lies. We are not setting forth to determine ourselves as to which
one of you two has perjured yourself. . That is the duty of the United
States attorney for the District of Columbia. He is confronted with the
fact that perjury has been committed before this congressional committee,
which is a crime. It is up to the United States district attorney and the
Department of Justice to prosecute that crime and that is all we are trying
to do.
Now, if we can get the help
from you and, as I say, if I were in your position I certainly would give
all the help I could because it is the most fantastic story of unfounded--what
motive would Chambers have or what motive--one of you has to have a motive.
You say you are in a bad position, but don't you think that Chambers himself
destroys himself if he is proven a liar? What motive would he have to pitch
a $25,000 position as the respected senior editor of Time magazine out
the window?
Mr. HISS. Apparently for Chambers
to be a confessed former Communist and traitor to his country did not seem
to him to be a blot on his record. He got his present job after he had
told various agencies exactly that. I am sorry but I cannot but feel to
such an extent that it is difficult for me to control myself that you can
sit there, Mr. Hebert, and say to me casually that you have heard that
man and you have heard me, and you just have no basis for judging which
one is telling the truth. I don't think a judge determines the credibility
of witnesses on that basis.
Mr. HEBERT. I am trying to
tell you that I absolutely have an open mind and am trying to give you
as fair a hearing as I could possibly give Mr. Chambers or yourself. The
fact that Mr. Chambers is a self-confessed traitor-and I admit he is--the
fact that he is
a self-confessed former member of the Communist
Party--which I admit he is--has no bearing at all on whether the facts
that he told--or, rather, the alleged facts that he told--
Mr. HISS. Has no bearing on his credibility?
Mr. HEBERT. No; because, Mr. Hiss, I recognize
the fact that maybe my background is a little different from yours, but
I do know police methods and I know crime a great deal, and you show me
a good police force and I will show you the stool pigeon who turned them
in. Show me a police force with a poor record, and I will show you a police
force without a stool pigeon. We have to have people like Chambers or Miss
Bentley to come in and tell us. I am not giving Mr. Chambers any great
credit for his previous life. I am trying to find out if he has reformed
come of the greatest saints in history were pretty bad before they were
saints. Are you going to take away their sainthood because of their previous
lives? Are you not going to believe them after they have reformed?
I don't care who gives the
facts to me, whether a confessed liar, thief, or murderer, if it is facts.
That is all I am interested in.
Mr. HISS. You have made your
position clear. I would like to raise a separate point. Today as I came
down on the train I read a statement-I think it was in the New York News-that
a member of this committee, an unidentified member of this committee had
told the press man who wrote the article that this committee believed or
had reason to believe from talking to Chambers that Chambers had personally
known Hiss, not that Chambers had had the conversation which is the issue
here, that Chambers had been in Hiss' house.
That is not the issue before
this committee. You are asking me to tell you all the facts that I know
of people who have been in my house or who have known me whom I would not
feel absolutely confident are people I know all about, personal friends,
people I feel I know through and through. I am not prepared to say on the
basis of the photograph--
Mr. HEBERT. We understand.
Mr. HISS. -That the man, that
he is not the man whose name I have written down here were I to testify
to that, what assurance have I that some member of this committee wouldn't
say to the press that Hiss confessed knowing Chambers?
In the first place, I have
testified and repeated that I have never known anybody by the name of Whittaker
Chambers. I am not prepared to testify I have never seen that man.
Mr. HEBERT. You have said
that.
Mr. STRIPLING. Have you ever
seen that one [indicating picture]?
The CHAIRMAN. What is the
question?
Mr. STRIPLING. Have you ever
seen the individual whose photograph appears there?
Mr. HISS. So far as I know:
no.
Mr. STRIPLING. You have never
seen that person?
Mr. HISS. No.
Mr. HEBERT. For the record,
the issue is whether Chambers did have the conversation with you, that
is admitted, but the only way we can establish the fact that Chambers had
the occasion to have the conversation with you is we have to establish
the fact that Hiss
knew Chambers and Chambers knew Hiss, and this
is very pertinent.
The CHAIRMAN. Let's go on
with the question.
Mr. NIXON. If Chambers' credibility
on the question of whether he knew you or not is destroyed, obviously you
can see that this statement that he had a conversation with you and that
you were a member of the Communist Party, which was made on the basis of
knowledge, would also be destroyed and that is exactly the basis upon which
this questioning is being conducted, I can assure you, because those are
personal matters; whether you are a member of the Communist Party and whether
he had a conversation with you individually is something that no third
party can corroborate one way or the other. But these other facts are matters
which third parties can corroborate. They won't prove, obviously, even
if there is agreement on all facts, that this man knew you, but if there
is disagreement on these facts, they will prove that Chambers is a perjurer
and that is what we are trying to find out. If we prove he is a perjurer
on the basis of his testimony now, the necessity of going into the rest
of the matter will be obviated.
Mr. HISS. But if he is able
through my action to make a more plausible story of having known me or
if he has in fact known me under circumstances very different from those
he has testified to, I think in my own self-protection I should have a
chance to see him. I think that for me to be asked details that may get
back, through no fault of yours--I can only repeat if this committee asks
me to go on with this specific line of inquiry, I will certainly do it.
I do not feel comfortable about being in a position to protect my own reputation
because I don't think knowledge of any individual is the issue here.
Mr. NIXON. I see. Now, I will
say this in asking the question that started this discussion--who were
your servants during 1934 to 1937--that the purpose of that question is
to attempt to find an individual who could corroborate either your story
or Mr. Chambers' story that he did or did not spend time in your house
between 1934 and 1937. If you will give us those names, we will appreciate
it.
Mr. HISS. I am not sure how
helpful I can be. The first maid we had when we were in Washington as far
back as 1929, I think, was with us for a while when we returned in 1933.
She was a Negro maid. Her name was Martha Pope.
Mr. NIXON. That was in 1933?
Mr. HISS. I think Martha returned
to our service in 1933.
Mr. NIXON. She came back to
you?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. Started to work
for you in 1933?
Mr. HISS. Yes. I am not positive
she did and not positive how long she stayed with us, if she did come back.
Mr. NIXON. She was there for
how long?
Mr. HISS. Some years previously.
Mr. NIXON. After 1933 do you
recall how long she was with you?
Mr. HISS. No, I cannot; and
I am not absolutely sure she came back.
Mr. NIXON. That was spelled
P-o-p-e?0
Mr. HISS. P-o-p-e.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall anybody
else that you had?
Mr. HISS. We had a servant
that we got through an agency, I think, when we lived on P Street, and
I am afraid I cannot recall her name. She wasn't with us very long. She
wasn't very satisfactory.
Mr. NIXON. When you lived
on P Street?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. You don't recall
the name. What agency did you get her through?
Mr. HISS. I would have to
ask my wife.
Mr. NIXON. We will ask your
wife tomorrow. Do you recall any others?
Mr. HISS. I don't even recall
that we had a servant when we lived on Thirtieth Street. No; I am afraid
I cannot recall the names. I can recall more recent ones.
Mr. NIXON. That is, more recent
than 1937?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. That wouldn't help
us. The only name you recall is that of Martha Pope and you can't say whether
or not she was with you after 1933?
Mr. HISS. No.
Mr. NIXON. We don't have the
names of any servants in the period in question.
Mr. HISS. I am afraid I can't.
Mr. NIXON. If you had taken
one of these servants home, would you be able to tell us where she lived,
for example, from time to time?
Mr. HISS. Yes. You mean if
I had driven a servant to where she lived?
Mr. NIXON. Yes; that is common
practice. I do it, for example, with the woman who works for us.
Mr. HISS. I have done that.
Mr. NIXON. Does that refresh
your memory?
Mr. HISS. I remember the area
where Martha Pope lived. She lived over near Howard University. I have
been over there to ask if she were available, if she were sick. I may have
even taken her home. I don't remember.
Mr. NIXON. You don't remember
the last time you had her, the last year?
Mr. HISS. No; I do not.
Mr. STRIPLING. Where did you
live in 1934?
Mr. HISS. According to the
best of my memory, without checking the leases-and I jotted these down
this morning-from June 1933 until, I think, about September 1934, I lived
on 0 Street in George-town. This testimony is on the assumption that what
I said made a difference to the committee and you wish to follow this line
of inquiry.
Mr. NIXON. Let me say this:
The testimony as to where you have lived is, of course, information that
can be obtained by an investigator in any event by checking the leases.
Mr.. HISS. It is in the telephone
book and the leases are m the agencies.
Mr. STRIPLING. 0 Street was
a house?
Mr. HISS. A house.
Mr. STRIPLING. How many rooms?.
Mr. HISS. A garage downstairs,
one went up to the floor above the street level for living quarters. It
was a living room, immediately behind it a dining room, then off into a
kitchen in an L. I am not sure that I can testify exactly as to the lay-out
of the bedrooms, which were above that.
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Chairman, I
would like to suggest that since we have become involved in this rather
lengthy discussion, that the committee recess for 5 minutes so that this
telephone call can be made to Mrs. Hiss. It is very important that Mrs.
Hiss appear before the committee.
Now, does the committee want
to discuss that?
Mr. McDOWELL. I would add
to that request for immediate executive session.
The CHAIRMAN. We will recess.
Mr. Hiss, will you please remain in the other room.
(At this point there was a
short executive session off the record and
with the witness out of the
room.)
Mr. NIXON. The committee thought
in the case of Mrs. Hiss that it would be an imposition to have her come
on such short notice; and since there will be some members available for
a week or so here in Washington, we thought we could arrange it at her
and your convenience in the future.
Mr. HISS. That is kind of
you.
The name of the man I brought
in--and he may have no relation to this whole nightmare--is a man named
George Crosley. I met him when I was working for the Nye committee. He
was a writer. He hoped to sell articles to magazines about the munitions
industry. I saw him, as I say, in my office over in the Senate Office Building,
dozens of representatives of the press, students,-- people writing books,
research people. It was our job to give them appropriate information out
of the record, show them what had been put in the record. This fellow was
writing a series of articles, according to my best recollection, free lancing,
which he hoped to sell to one of the magazines.
He was pretty obviously not
successful in financial terms, but as far as I know, wasn't actually hard
up.
Mr. STRIPLING. What color
was his hair?
Mr. HISS. Rather blondish,
blonder than any of us here.
Mr. STRIPLING. Was he married?
Mr. HISS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STRIPLING. Any children?
Mr. HISS. One little baby,
as I remember it, and the way I know that was the subleasing point. After
we had taken the house on P Street and had the apartment on our hands,
he one day in the course of casual conversation said he was going to specialize
all summer in getting his articles done here in Washington, didn't know
what he was going to do, and was thinking of bringing his family.
I said, "You can have my apartment.
It is not terribly cool, but it is up in the air near the Wardman Park."
He said he had a wife and little baby. The apartment wasn't very expensive,
and I think I let him have it at exact cost. My recollection is that he
spent several nights in my house because his furniture van was delayed.
We left several pieces of furniture behind. The P Street house belonged
to a naval officer overseas and was
partly furnished, so we didn't need all our furniture,
particularly during the summer months, and my recollection is that definitely,
as one does with a tenant trying to make him agreeable and comfortable,
we left several pieces of furniture behind until the fall, his van was
delayed, wasn't going to bring all the furniture because he was going
to be there just during the summer, and we put
them up 2 or 3 nights in a row, his wife and little baby.
Mr. NIXON. His wife and he
and little baby did spend several nights in the house with you?
Mr. HISS. This man Crosley;
yes.
Mr. NIXON. Can you describe
his wife?
Mr. HISS. Yes; she was a rather
strikingly dark person, very strikingly dark. I don't know whether I would
recognize her again because I didn't see very much of her.
Mr. NIXON. How tall was this
man, approximately?
Mr. HISS. Shortish.
Mr. NIXON. Heavy?
Mr. HISS. Not noticeably.
That is why I don't believe it has any direct, but it could have an indirect,
bearing.
Mr. NIXON. How about his teeth?
Mr. HISS. Very bad teeth.
That is one of the things I particularly want to see Chambers about. This
man had very bad teeth, did not take care of his teeth.
Mr. STRIPLING. Did he have
most of his teeth or just weren't well cared for?
Mr. HISS. I don't think he
had gapped teeth, but they were badly taken care of. They were stained
and I would say obviously not attended to.
Mr. NIXON. Can you state again
just when he first rented the apartment ?
Mr. HISS. I think it was about
June of 1935. My recollection is--and again I have not checked the records--that
is, I went with the Nye munitions committee in the early winter of 1934.
I don't even remember now when the resolution was passed. In any event,
I am
confident I was living on Twenty-ninth Street
from December 1934 to June 1935 and that coincided with my service with
the Nye committee. I say that because one reason we took the apartment
was to reduce our living costs, because after I had been on loan from the
Department of Agriculture for some months, I
thought it would only be a 2-month assignment or so, it became evident
that I was to stay on longer if I should complete the job, and my deputy
in the Department of Agriculture was doing all my work and not getting
my salary and I did not feel it fair, so I resigned from the Department
of Agriculture to go on with the Nye committee work at the Nye committee
salary and contemplated that and talked it over with my deputy in the Department
of Agriculture for some time before I did it. So I am sure, from my recollection,
that the Twenty-ninth Street apartment is definitely linked in time with
my service on the Nye committee.
Mr. STRIPLING. What kind of
automobile did that fellow have?
Mr. HISS. No kind of automobile.
I sold him an automobile. I had an old Ford that I threw in with the apartment
and had been trying to trade it in and get rid of it. I had an old, old
Ford we had kept for sentimental reasons. We got it just before we were
married
in 1929.
Mr. STRIPLING. 'Vas
it a model A or model T?
Mr. HISS. Early A model with
a trunk on the back, a slightly collegiate model.
Mr. STRIPLING. What color?
Mr. HISS. Dark blue. It wasn't
very fancy but it had a sassy little trunk on the back.
Mr. NIXON. You sold that car?
Mr. HISS. I threw it in. He
wanted a way to get around and I said, "Fine, I want to get rid of it.
I have another car, and we kept it for sentimental reasons, not worth a
damn." I let him have it along with the rent.
Mr. NIXON. Where did you move
from there?
Mr. HISS. Again my best recollection
is that we stayed on P Street only 1 year because the whole heating plant
broke down in the middle of the winter when I was quite ill, and I think
that we moved from 2905 P Street to 1241 Thirtieth Street about September
1936. I recall that quite specifically though we can check it from the
records, because I remember Mr. Sayre, who was my chief in the State Department,
who had been my professor at law school, saying he wanted to drive by and
see where I was living. I remember the little house on Thirtieth Street
which we had just got, a new development, was the little house I
drove him by, and it must have been September
or October 1936, just after starting to work in the State Department.
Mr. NIXON. Going back to this
man, do you know how many days approximately he stayed with you?
Mr. HISS. I don't think more
than a couple of times. He may have come back. I can't remember when it
was I finally decided it wasn't any use expecting to collect from him,
that I had been a sucker and he was a sort of deadbeat; not a bad character,
but I think he just was using me for a soft touch.
Mr. NIXON. You said before
he moved in your apartment he stayed in your house with you and your wife
about how many days?
Mr. HISS. I would say a couple
of nights. I don't think it was longer than that.
Mr. NIXON. A couple of nights?
Mr. HISS. During the delay
of the van arriving.
Mr. NIXON. Wouldn't that be
longer than 2 nights?
Mr. HISS. I don't think so.
I wouldn't swear that he didn't come back again some later time after the
lease and say, "I can't find a hotel. Put me up overnight," or something
of that sort. I wouldn't swear Crosley wasn't in my house maybe a total
of 3 or 4 nights
altogether.
Mr. NIXON. You don't recall
any subjects of conversation during that period?
Mr. HISS. We talked backwards
and forwards about the Munitions Committee work. He told various stories
that I recall of his escapades. He purported to be a cross between Jim
Tully, the author, and Jack London. He had been everywhere. I remember
he told
me he had personally participated in laying down
the tracks of the street cars in Washington, D. C. He had done that for
local color, or something. He had worked right with the road gang laying
tracks in Washington, D. C.
Mr. STRIPLING.
Was his middle initial "L"?
Mr. HISS. That
I wouldn't know. There may be a lease record, must be some record with
the apartment house of who the person was who was my subtenant.
Mr. NIXON. With the apartment
house?
Mr. HISS. I think H. L. Rust
were the agents.
Mr. NIXON. You can't recall
the names of any servants other than the one you mentioned?
Mr. HISS. While you were out
of the room I thought of a woman I described as being unsatisfactory. She
was rather sullen in personality, and I think her name was Ellen. I think
we called her "Sullen Ellen," but I may be wrong on that. I think she was
our
servant when we lived on P Street.
Mr. NIXON. You gave this Ford
car to Crosley?
Mr. HISS. Threw it in along
with the apartment and charged the rent and threw the car in at the same
time.
Mr. NIXON. In other words,
added a little to the rent to cover the car?
Mr. HISS. No; I think I charged
him exactly what I was paying for the rent and threw the car in in addition.
I don't think I got any compensation.
Mr. STRIPLING. You just gave
him the car?
Mr. HISS. I think the car
just went right in with it. I don't remember whether we had settled on
the terms of the rent before the car question came up, or whether it came
up and then on the basis of the car and the apartment I said, "Well, you
ought to pay the full rent."
Mr. STRIPLING. Are you hard
of hearing in your left ear?
Mr. HISS. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. STRIPLING. I noticed you
had your hand up to your ear.
Mr. HISS. If I have done that,
it is only when I wanted to be sure I was hearing.
Mr. STRIPLING. You did that
before the committee in open session and did then. If you are having difficulty,
we can all move this way.
Mr. HISS. I am not aware of
it and never heard any doctor say so.
Mr. NIXON. I have a few more
of these questions, which I feel will help us a great deal if you are willing
to answer them.
Mr. HISS. I am willing to
answer any question you ask.
Mr. NIXON. I assure you, as
I have before, that as far as the committee is concerned the cold record,
Mr. Chambers' testimony, and your testimony are going to have to stand
up together.
Mr. HISS. We won't go into
that question again.
Mr. STRIPLING. May I ask another
question?
Mr. NIXON. Yes.
Mr. STRIPLING. When you had
this Ford car do you remember where you bought your gasoline?
Mr. HISS. No; I don't remember
where we bought gas when we were living on Twenty-ninth Street. On 0 Street
I am afraid I don't remember whether I had a regular place. I remember
a regular place in recent years, and even earlier, but when we first came
down I don't think we had a regular place.
Mr. STRIPLING. What kind of
car did you get?
Mr. HISS. A Plymouth.
Mr. STRIPLING. A Plymouth?
Mr. HISS. Plymouth sedan.
Mr. STRIPLING. Four-door?
Mr. HISS. I think I have always
had only two-door.
Mr. STRIPLING. What kind of
a bill of sale did you give Crosley?
Mr. HISS. I think I just turned
over-in the District you get a certificate of title, I think it is. I think
I just simply turned it over to him.
Mr. STRIPLING. Handed it to
him?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. STRIPLING. No evidence
of 'any transfer. Did he record the title?
Mr. HISS. That I haven't any
idea. This is a car which had been sitting on the streets in snows for
a year or two. I once got a parking fine because I forgot where it was
parked. We were using the other car.
Mr. STRIPLING. Do those model
Fords have windshield wipers?
Mr. HISS. You had to work
them yourself.
Mr. STRIPLING. Hand operated?
Mr. HISS. I think that is
the best I can recall.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall the
voice of this fellow Crosley?
Mr. HISS. I was trying to
recall that this morning. It was a low voice. He speaks with a low and
rather dramatic roundness.
Mr. STRIPLING. Would you say
it is a subdued voice?
Mr. HISS. No; I don't particularly
think that is so. It is not very loud, but the main thing I have in mind
would be a deepness, a lowness.
Mr. McDOWELL. A heavy voice?
Mr. HISS. Lower voice than
I have.
Mr. NIXON. Was he a man pretty
talkative about his accomplishments, et cetera?
Mr. HISS. That is right.
Mr. NIXON. There are matters
which I wish to go into now to which Mr. Chambers has given categorical
answers. I am going to put the questions objectively, as you can see. I
am not going to try to lead you one way or the other. It will be very helpful
as the two records look together to see how accurate he is in this case.
part 2
I want to say first of all,
so that it won't come up, that I realize that the matters which are covered
are matters which third parties could corroborate, and that is the reason
we ask these particular questions. Again for the purpose of just checking
the veracity of Mr.
Chambers and your testimony. It will help us
to check it again.
What were the nicknames you
and your wife had?
Mr. HISS. My wife, I have
always called her "Prossy."
Mr. NIXON. What does she call
you?
Mr. HISS. Well, at one time
she called me quite frequently "Hill," H-i-l-l.
Mr. NIXON. What other name?
Mr. HISS. "Hilly," with a
"y."
Mr. NIXON. What other name
did you call her?
Mr. STRIPLING. What did you
say?
Mr. HISS. She caned me "Hill"
or "Hilly." I called her "Pross" or "Prossy" almost exclusively. I don't
think any other nickname.
Mr. NIXON. Did you ever call
her "Dilly"?
Mr. HISS. No; never.
Mr. NIXON. Never to your knowledge
in fun or otherwise?
Mr. HISS. Never.
Mr. NIXON. What did you call
your son?
Mr. HISS. "Timmy."
Mr. NIXON. "Timmy"?
Mr. HISS. Yes; and in the
family he is also known as "Moby," M-o-b-y.
Mr. NIXON. That is in the
family now?
Mr. HISS. Yes; but he was
"Tim" and "Timmy" most; in the family circle we called him "Moby."
Mr. NIXON. You testified you
took your servants home?
Mr. HISS. I have on occasions.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall the
age of this particular woman, Mrs. Pope, by any chance?
Mr. HISS. Martha, I would
say she was probably in her 40's and very plump, very, very plump, large
cheerful plump woman.
Mr. NIXON. Was she a cook
or housekeeper?
Mr. HISS. Cook and waitress.
We never had more than one maid at a time.
Mr. NIXON. You don't recall
any other servant after that as far as age is concerned?
Mr. HISS. This woman Ellen
would be in her 50's, tall and dark. Ellen, I think, was older than Martha.
Mr. NIXON. Did you ever take
her home?
Mr. HISS. I don't think so.
Mr. NIXON. You did take Martha
home?
Mr. HISS. Yes; Martha was
practically a member of the family.
Mr. NIXON. Any other cook
you took home?
Mr. HISS. We had a cook in
recent years and I can't remember how far back it went. Certainly to the
early 1940's. During the war she left us to take employment.
Mr. NIXON. If as much as possible
we can limit our testimony to the years 1934 to 1937, it will be helpful
because there is nothing else at issue.
Mr. HISS. On this business
of maids it is hard. You don't hire people on an annual basis. They stay
until something happens, and the one I remember taking home best I doubt
if she was in our employ as early as 1937.
One other maid, whose name
was Drusilla, lived in Georgetown. I don't recall ever having taken her
home. I think we may have had her as early as 1937; maybe it was 1938.
Mr. NIXON. Where did you spend
your vacations during that period ?
Mr. HISS. Normally, I think
I didn't begin going to Peacham regularly until either 1937 or 1938; may
have been 1937. My son went to, a camp over on the Eastern Shore of Maryland.
I am partly an Eastern Shore man myself. Part of my family came from there.
When he was at camp we spent two summers, I think, during this period in
Chestertown, Md.
Mr. NIXON. On the Eastern
Shore?
Mr. HISS. On the Eastern Shore
of Maryland. He went to a camp of friends of ours who lived just outside
of Chestertown. For two, summers we took a small apartment.
Mr. NIXON. Did you have pets?
Mr. HISS. We had a brown cocker
spaniel we had before we came to Washington, was with us all during that
period, and lived to be so old she died of old age.
Mr. NIXON. What did you do
with the dog when you went on your vacations; do you recall ?
Mr. HISS. I think we took
Tenny over on the Eastern Shore. I think we took her on the Eastern Shore
when we went there. She did spend some time in the kennels when we were
away.
Mr. NIXON. You can't recall
for sure?
Mr. HISS.. We had a very good
vet out near Rock Creek Park.
Mr. NIXON. Do you know his
name? .
Mr. HISS. No; but I could
easily ascertain it.
Mr. NIXON. That is where you
would have left the dog, boarded the dog?
Mr. HISS. Yes; at that time
I think we left her there.
Mr. NIXON. Can you ascertain
that before you leave?
Mr. HISS. I can tell you how
you get there.
Mr. NIXON. How would you get
there?
Mr. HISS. You go right out
the road that runs west of Rock Creek Park in the Chevy Chase area, and
he had a house and his kennels elevated from the road just before you get
to the end of that road that runs parallel to Rock Creek Park and turns
off in the middle of Rock Creek Park. His name might be Dr. Evans. I wouldn't
be sure.
Mr. NIXON. What hobby, if
any, do you have, Mr. Hiss?
Mr. HISS. Tennis and amateur
ornithology.
Mr. NIXON. Is your wife interested
in ornithology?
Mr. HISS. I also like to swim
and also like to sail. My wife is interested in ornithology, as I am, through
my interest. Maybe I am using too big a word to say an ornithologist because
I am pretty amateur, but I have been interested in it since I was in Boston.
I think anybody who knows me would know that.
Mr. McDOWELL. Did you ever
see a prothonotary warbler?
Mr. HISS. I have right here
on the Potomac. Do you know that place?
The CHAIRMAN. What is that?
Mr. NIXON. Have you ever seen
one?
Mr. HISS. Did you see it in
the same place?
Mr. McDOWELL. I saw one in
Arlington.
Mr. HISS. They come back and
nest in those swamps. Beautiful yellow head, a gorgeous bird.
Mr. Collins is an ornithologist,
Henry Collins. He is a really good ornithologist, calling them by their
Latin names.
Mr. NIXON. What schools do
you recall your son attended in 1934 to 1937?
Mr. HISS. Tim was in the Friends
School briefly here.
Mr. NIXON. Where did he go
before that?
Mr. HISS. It is going to be
hard to be sure. He went to a small school called the Cobb School, I think,
in Chevy Chase.
Mr. NIXON. Is that called
the Chevy Chase School also?
Mr. HISS. I don't think so.
I think it was just called the Cobb School. Mr. Cobb ran it.
After Friends School he went
to boarding school to George School in Pennsylvania near Doylestown, right
near Newtown, Pa.
Mr. NIXON. Is the Friends
School a rather expensive school, would you say, or moderate-priced school?
Mr. HISS. I would say moderate.
Mr. NIXON. And Cobb's School
the same?
Mr. HISS. Yes. I might say
Timmy's educational expenses were paid by his own father as part of the
arrangement.
Mr. NIXON. Was the Cobb School,
do you recall, more expensive than the Friends School?
Mr. HISS. I would guess it
was probably less because it didn't carry through the grades thoroughly.
It was a preschool and early primary grades.
Mr. NIXON. And you can't recall
that there was a school in between that and Friends School?
Mr. HISS. I don't recall it,
Mr. Nixon. He went to the Landon School here for a while.
Mr. NIXON. That is after Friends
School?
Mr. HISS. That is after he
had been at Friends and before he went to George School but not between
Cobb and Friends. He went to Landon School, which is off Connecticut Avenue
out when you get to Bradley Lane.
Mr. NIXON. Is that more expensive
than the other?
Mr. HISS. That was a rather
expensive school.
Mr. NIXON. More so than Friends
School?
Mr. HISS. I think so.
Mr. NIXON. You don't recall
the school he went to immediately before Friends?
Mr. HISS. No; I don't.
Mr. NIXON. But you would say
the Friends School was a moderate priced school?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. .HEBERT. Then you put
him in a more expensive school?
Mr. HISS. Landon was more
expensive than Friends. He hadn't been getting along very well at Friends
and we consulted friends and thought that Landon was better.
Mr. HEBERT. You put him in
a more expensive school?
Mr. HISS. That is correct.
Mr. NIXON. Just one moment,
Mr. Hiss. I want to avoid having to go into any more of these again. As
a boy, Mr. Hiss, did you have any particular business that you
engaged in?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. What was your business?
Mr. HISS. I had two businesses.
One of which I was most proud was the delivery of spring water in Baltimore.
Baltimore people didn't think they had very good municipal water.
Mr. NIXON. You had the spring
water on your own place?
Mr. HISS. We had to go out
to the park.
Mr. NIXON. The park?
Mr. HISS. Druid Hill Park
is a park in Baltimore where there were good springs and some of us had
water routes and we carried water and delivered it to customers.
Mr. HEBERT. As a child?
Mr. HISS. Twelve or so.
Mr. HEBERT. I didn't know
whether he was in the spring-water business.
Mr. NIXON. As a boy.
Mr. HISS. We sold spring water.
Mr. STRIPLING. Is Druid Hill
right in the middle of Baltimore?
Mr. NIXON. It is now.
Mr. HISS. It was at the edge
of town then and from our house it was 10 or 15 blocks. I have always been
very proud of that. I also raised pigeons and sold squabs. I am afraid
in both places mostly to friends of my family.
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Hiss, I have
no further questions at this time. I might say that as a result of the
questions, when we see the cold record, it presents to the committee a
difficult problem again, still a controversy between the two witnesses.
It is one which is difficult to resolve on the basis of third-party evidence,
and as it stands at the present
time it is your word against that of Mr. Chambers.
I realize, incidentally, the
feeling that you have, which I think is natural, that your word should
be given greater weight than Mr. Chambers' word.
On the other hand, Mr. Chambers
feels the same way because he feels he volunteered the information.
Mr. STRIPLING. Could I ask
a few questions?
Mr. NIXON. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Are you finished
with your statement?
Mr. STRIPLING. I want to ask
some questions before he makes the statement.
Mr. NIXON. Go ahead.
Mr. STRIPLING. On this man
George Crosley, you say you gave him this car?
Mr. HISS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you ever
go riding with Crosley in this automobile?
Mr. HISS. I might very well
have..
Mr. STRIPLING. I mean did
you go around with him quite a bit, take rides?
Mr. HISS. You mean after I
gave it to him did he ever give me a ride?
Mr. STRIPLING. Before or after.
Mr. HISS. I think I drove
him from the Hill to the apartment.
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you ever
take any trips out of town with George Crosley?
Mr. HISS. No; I don't think
so.
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you ever
take him to Pennsylvania?
Mr. HISS. No. I think I once
drove him to New York City when I was going to make a trip to New York
City anyway.
Mr. NIXON. Was Mrs. Hiss along?
Mr. HISS. That I wouldn't
recall. She may have been. I think I may have given him a lift when I went
to New York.
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you go
to Paoli?
Mr. HISS. If Mrs. Hiss was
along; yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Route No. 202?
Mr. HISS. Route 202 goes through
that part of Pennsylvania, and that is the route we would take.
Mr. NIXON. Did you ever drive
to Baltimore with Crosley?
Mr. HISS. I don't recall it.
I think he moved to Baltimore from here, as a matter of fact, but I don't
recall that I ever drove him.
Mr. NIXON. How did you know
that?
Mr. HISS. I think he told
me when he was pulling out. He was in my apartment until the lease expired
in September.
Mr. NIXON. What year?
Mr. HISS. I think it was September
1935 and I think I saw him several times after that, and I think he had
told me he moved from here to Baltimore.
Mr. NIXON. Even though he
didn't pay his rent you saw him several times?
Mr. HISS. He was about to
pay it and was going to sell his articles. He gave me a payment on account
once. He brought a rug over which he said some wealthy patron gave him.
I have still got the damned thing.
Mr. NIXON. Did you ever give
him anything?
Mr. HISS. Never anything but
a couple of loans; never got paid back.
Mr. NIXON. Never gave him
anything else?
Mr. HISS. Not to my recollection.
Mr. NIXON. Where is he now?
Mr. HISS. I have no idea.
I don't think I have seen him since 1935.
Mr. NIXON. Have you ever heard
of him since 1935?
Mr. HISS. No; never thought
of him again until this morning on the train.
Mr. STRIPLING. You wouldn't
say positively George Crosley and his person are the same?
Mr. HISS. Not positively.
Mr. STRIPLING. You would not
say positively?
Mr. HISS. I think they are
not. That would be my best impression from the photographs?
In thinking this morning what
I thought was that Crosley is the only person I know who has been in my
house who knows the lay-out of any house or apartment I lived in.
Mr. NIXON. He knows the lay-out
of only one house?
Mr. HISS. Only one house.
Mr. NIXON. In one house only?
Mr. HISS. To my knowledge.
Mr. STRIPLING. Do you have
a collection of stuffed birds or anything?
Mr. HISS. No.
Mr. STRIPLING. Pictures of
them?
Mr. HISS. I have bird books
with pictures; photographs that I had taken; no.
Mr. STRIPLING. ,Just pictures
of different birds not in books?
Mr. HISS. I have several Audubon
prints hanging in my house, of birds.
The CHAMBERS. They are the
finest pictures of birds that have ever been made; is that correct?
Mr. HISS. I think so. The
most artistic, anyway.
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Chambers, of
course, as I say, was very convincing in his testimony and you certainly
are very convincing in yours.
Now, frankly, the committee
has a difficult problem here and I wonder if under the circumstances for
the assistance of the committee in this matter you would be willing to
take a lie-detector test on this.
I might say before you answer,
so you will have full knowledge of what the committee knows, Mr. Chambers
was asked that question and said he would take a lie detector test.
Mr. HISS. Shall I answer now?
Mr. NIXON. Yes.
Mr. HISS. Mr. Nixon, several
days after I testified two members of the press told me that there had
been a report that the committee was considering asking various witnesses
if they would take a lie detector test. When I was asked if I had any comment
to make on
that, I said I didn't think it was appropriate
at the time to make any comment.
Since then I have talked about
that to several friends who I think are knowledgeable. When I was practicing
law actively, quite frankly we had very little confidence in the so-called
lie detector tests. I would say that I would rather have you ask me formally
if you think the detector tests are valuable in terms of who would administer
it what expert it is, what type of test, because the people I have consulted-and
I think I have consulted knowledgeable people-say there is no such thing;
that it is an emotion recording test; that it is not scientific, and that
nobody scientifically competent, including the Bureau, regards it as a
scientific test.
Mr. NIXON. When you speak
of asking you formally, what do you want us to do?
. Mr. HISS. I would like to
know who the administrator is, whether this is being done by someone in
the Bureau who is an expert or an individual so-called expert, what kind
of a test it is. In other words, I don't think I ought to, on the basis
of the advice I have had to try to answer it out of hand until I know and
you know.
I would be surprised if this
committee would want to rely on something that isn't scientific.
Mr. NIXON. Certainly. In answer
to your question, the committee has contacted Mr. Leonardo Keeler.
Mr. HISS. Is he the man from
Chicago?
Mr. NIXON. Probably the outstanding
man in the country. The test Mr. Keeler has is the polygraph machine. It
is the only one, I think, that has any broad acceptance at all.
I might say also that the
polygraph machine is one whose accuracy is dependent to a great extent
upon the type of operator. In questioning Mr. Keeler about this I said
that if we did have the lie detector test, that he would have to operate
it. He agreed. I might say we have made no arrangements with Mr. Keeler
because it is rather an expensive proposition. When we do make arrangements
we will, of course, have a number of witnesses concerning which contradictory
testimony has come up. We are putting the question to you officially now
and would like for you to give us your answer as soon as you can.
Mr. HISS. Would it seem to
you inappropriate for me to say that I would rather have a chance for further
consultation before I gave you the answer? Actually, the people I have
conferred with so far say that it all depends on who reads, that it shows
emotion, not truth, and I am perfectly willing and prepared to say that
I am not lacking in emotion about this business.
I have talked to people who
have seen, I think, Dr. Keeler's own test and that the importance of a
question registers more emotion than anything else. I certainly don't want
to duck anything that has scientific or sound basis. I would like to consult
further.
I would like to find out a
little more about Dr. Keeler. As I told you, the people I have consulted
said flatly there is no such thing, that it is not scientifically established.
Mr. NIXON. When could you
give a decision on that?
Mr. HISS. I would hope to
consult in part the same people I consulted last week and anyone they suggested.
Mr. NIXON. When could you
give a decision?
Mr. HISS. When is it important
to you to know? Would you like to know tomorrow?
Mr. NIXON. Wednesday.
Mr. HISS. I will try to Jet
you know Wednesday.
Mr. NIXON. Tomorrow might
rush you. Could you know by Wednesday?
Mr. HISS. I certainly ought
to be able to make up my mind on the basis of the questions I ask.
Mr. NIXON. If you do decide
tomorrow and let us know, it would facilitate things, one way or the other.
We have Mr. Keeler more or less standing by. I don't mean he is here, but
he has promised to remain available for 3 or 4 days.
Mr. HISS. To whom should my
reply be addressed?
Mr. NIXON. To the chairman
of the committee. I might say also that the matter of emotion, of course,
as you pointed out, enters into the test. One thing the members of the
committee both remarked about is that Mr. Chambers is also a very emotional
man.
Mr. HISS. Have you ever had
any experience-with it yourself when you were practicing, Mr. Nixon?
Mr. NIXON. No; I have not.
Mr. HISS. But you do have
confidence in it?
Mr. NIXON. Frankly, I have
made a study of it in the last week before I put the question. In fact,
for the last 2 weeks I have been studying it and have been in correspondence
with Mr. Keeler.
Mr. HISS. You do have confidence
in it as a device?
Mr. NIXON. I have. Let me
say this: I have confidence that it is a factor which will be helpful in
this case. I realize there is no factor which can be conclusive in this
case, and I don't pretend that that is the case, but I do have confidence
it would be helpful in this case to be weighed with the other facts in
this matter.
Mr. HISS. I will take that
into account.
Mr. NIXON. I have no further
questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hebert.
Mr. HEBERT. Mr. Hiss, how
many children-is it just your brother and yourself?
Mr. HISS. In my family there
were five originally. Two are dead.
I have another brother and
sister, one surviving older sister and my brother.
Mr. HEBERT. Where does your
sister live?
Mr. HISS. She lives in Austin,
Tex., department of physical education at the university.
Mr. HEBERT. University of
Texas?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. HEBERT. Where did she
live before she went to the University of Texas?
Mr. HISS. In Baltimore.
Mr. HEBERT. With whom?
Mr. HISS. With my mother.
Mr. HEBERT. Just your mother
and sister?
Mr. HISS. Yes. She went straight
to Texas, I think, on graduation from physical training school, may have
had one intermediate position.
Mr. HEBERT. What year?
Mr. HISS. She is a good deal
older than I am. I think she has been in Texas about 20 years.
Mr. HEBERT. She has been in
Texas about 20 years?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. HEBERT. Would she have
been living in Baltimore in the years in question with your mother?
Mr. HISS. No, definitely no.
She was in Texas at that time.
Mr. HEBERT. That is all.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDOWELL. Mr. Chairman,
there is something I have been very anxious to get on the record, and since
this is an executive session I think it is proper.
Do you recall, Mr. Hiss, calling
on me last spring?
Mr. HISS. I do, indeed.
Mr. McDOWELL. Would you tell
the committee why you called?
Mr. HISS. The then president
or director of the Carnegie Institute in Pittsburgh, the Institute of Technology,
sent word to us in New York that a derogatory report about a Carnegie Foundation
had been received by this committee, that he thought the appropriate person
for us to talk to if we had anything to say would be Congressman McDowell,
who was investigating so-called Fascist activities.
I don't recall whether the
substance of the charge came to me at that time, Mr. McDowell, or only
when I talked to you and you very frankly told me all about it.
In any event, the facts, as
I recall them, were that a charge had been made that a Carnegie Foundation
had made a grant of money to one Gerald K. Smith on his own allegation.
He had told that to intimates. He said he didn't need to worry about money,
he had Carnegie backing or a Carnegie grant; that a priest who was not
quite unfrocked but was disciplined for his associations with Gerald L.
K. Smith, had become penitent under discipline, as a result of discipline,
and had entered, I think, a monastery in Florida, and it was he who said
that Gerald L. K. Smith had told him or had heard it said in his presence
that he received financial backing from a Carnegie Foundation.
I came immediately to see
you to see if we could get to the bottom of it and offered you and the
committee full access to all the Carnegie files. I said I had checked my
associates in the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching,
which is a related agency which makes grants; the Carnegie Corp., which
is the largest granting body; had been through all our own records, though
I had only come into the position in the endowment in 1947; and was absolutely
sure that there had never been any grants by any Carnegie agency to Mr.
Gerald L. K. Smith.
Mr. McDOWELL. Thank you very
much. I wanted that on the record.
Mr. HISS. I appreciate very
much the courtesy and the completeness of the information you gave me.
Mr. NIXON. I was going to
suggest, Mr. Chairman, that I think the arrangements should be made now,
if possible, for a hearing at which Mr. Hiss can resolve his own mind as
to whether he has seen Mr. Chambers. I think that is essential because
Mr. Hiss has indicated in his testimony today he is not satisfied from
the pictures.
The CHAIRMAN. On that point
I think we all agree. I believe though we ought to go into executive session
right now and discuss it a little bit and have Mr. Hiss wait outside for
us.
Mr. HEBERT. Before you do
that, may I ask one more question?
Mr. Hiss, since this matter
has come to public attention and since you have become cognizant of it,
have you made any attempt to check Mr. Chambers to find out who he is and
where he possibly knew you?
Mr. HISS. I did consult people
in New York to see if there is any way to find out. The advice I received
is that it is not appropriate, desirable, or very feasible for an individual
solely for such a personal reason to attempt, or attempt to have conducted,
an investigation; and so I have not persevered.
Mr. HEBERT. By that answer
you mean you went to a detective agency?
Mr. HISS. I went to lawyers,
counsel.
Mr. HEBERT. You went to counsel
for that?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. HEBERT. You let the matter
drop there?
Mr. HISS. Yes; on receiving
their advice.
Mr. HEBERT. Can you, searching
through your mind, recall or suggest any reason why a man named Whittaker
Chambers should give such testimony involving you, any motive?
Mr. HISS. I cannot, sir, and
I would like to say that this is one of the things I have puzzled and puzzled
with.
Mr. HEBERT. Through your connection
and association with people on Time or Life, as you undoubtedly have, did
you inquire of Chambers?
Mr. HISS. On the way down
to the public hearing I ran into an editor of Fortune whom I know only
slightly, but the man I was with knew him very well, and I asked him because
I hadn't found anybody who knew him. I had asked various press people who
were asking me for statements if they knew him, and they did not. I have
asked various friends who knew people on Time if they could find out more
about his personality and what he is like. I haven't heard any reply. This
man on Fortune gave an off-hand reaction.
Mr. HEBERT. You just didn't
toss it off without trying to find out about Chambers.
Mr. NIXON. Was Mr. Crosley
a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. HISS. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. NIXON. Never discussed
it?
Mr. HISS. No.
Mr. NIXON. You feel he might
be Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. HISS. I find it difficult
to believe. I can't identify him from the pictures and can't see any motive.
Mr. NIXON. You haven't the
slightest idea what became of him?
Mr. HISS. No; haven't seen
him since 1935.
Mr. NIXON. Where was he working
at the time you knew him?
Mr. HISS. I was working in
Washington in the Senate and he was here to get information in order to
write articles.
Mr. NIXON. For whom did he
work? Who was his employer?
Mr. HISS. He told me he was
a free-lance writer preparing a series of articles which he had no doubt
he would be able to market; that he had written for various magazines.
Mr. NIXON. What magazines
had he written for?
Mr. HISS. He told me he had
written for American magazine; I think he told me he had written for Cosmopolitan.
Mr. NIXON. You are sure about
his telling you about writing for American?
Mr. HISS. Yes; I am sure of
that.
Mr. NIXON. Never indicated
where he worked or who he worked for?
Mr. HISS. He was a free-lance
writer.
Mr. HEBERT. Did you ever see
his name attached to an article?
Mr. HISS. He never sold one
of the articles.
Mr. HEBERT. Did you ever see
his name attached to an article?
Mr. HISS. No.
Mr. HEBERT. Never saw anything
he wrote?
Mr. HISS. No.
Mr. NIXON. Did he pay any
rent all the time he was in your house?
Mr. HISS. My recollection
is he paid $15 or $20, and he gave me a rug, which I have still got.
Mr. NIXON. You had hard words
when he left?
Mr. HISS. Yes, in the sense
that I said, "Let's not talk any more about your ever paying back. I don't
think you ever intend to, and I would rather forget all of this, and I
think you have simply welshed from the beginning."
Mr. NIXON. In other words,
this wasn't sufficient motive?
Mr. HISS. I didn't ask him
to leave the house, but I practically did, and haven't seen him since.
I made it plain I wouldn't be a sucker.
Mr. NIXON. Do you know his
middle initial?
Mr. HISS. No; if I did I don't
remember.
Mr. NIXON. Would you say this
would be sufficient motive to do what Whittaker Chambers has done?
Mr. HISS. No. That is why
I say I can't believe it was the same man. I can't imagine a normal man
holding a grudge because somebody had stopped being a sucker.
Mr. STRIPLING. I want to ask
you something. This is executive session and don't be insulted at any of
these questions. You claim that you are a very close friend of Henry Collins.
Mr. HISS. I think it is fair
to say I regard Henry Collins as a close friend.
Mr. STRIPLING. I don't recall
whether I asked you exactly this question, but I think I asked you if Henry
Collins was a Communist.
Mr. HISS. I don't recall exactly
what I replied if you did ask it, but I feel sure I would have replied
and I now reply, Not so far as I know.
Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Hiss, Mr.
Collins before the committee the other day refused to answer the question
whether or not he was a member of the Communist Party on the ground that
he might incriminate himself, and I happen to know pretty conclusively
that not only is Mr. Collins a Communist but he has been a Communist for
many years.
In fact, when he used to work
in the AAA he was notorious, notorious for sitting around talking about
communism.
Mr. HISS. I don't think I
ever worked in AAA.
Mr. STRIPLING. And extolling
the Russian system. You claim you know Lee Pressman. Lee Pressman has been
accused of being an outright card-holding member of the Communist Party
in the public press time and time again and refuses to deny it. The same
is true of John Abt. You know John Abt.
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. STRIPLING. And yet you
would give us the belief that none of these people is a Communist. There
is no question about John Abt and Lee Pressman, and in my mind, on Henry
Collins.
You are an intelligent person
and not naive enough that you wouldn't know a Communist if you saw one.
Furthermore, I read a lot of Government files from time to time-and I don't
say this disparagingly-but I have seen your name for years in Government
files as a person suspected of Communist activity.
Now, there has to be some
basis for the thing. Why would Charles Kramer refuse to say whether he
knew you on the ground of self-incrimination? Why would Henry Collins answer
that way? Why would all these people say that?
Mr. HISS. Are you finished?
Mr. STRIPLING. Yes.
Mr. HISS. Do you think those
are relevant questions to this inquiry?
Mr. STRIPLING. I am trying
to determine why a man would come in before a committee of Congress under
the penalties of perjury and just out of the blue make up a story and then
have that story check almost in every minute detail, according to check,
and then have people come in whom we know are Communists and then ask do
they know you, and they refuse to answer. From your testimony and your
appearance I would certainly be given the impression that you were as far
removed from communism and knew no one who could even be suspected of being
a Communist, just absolutely--just never heard of the word. Now, we are
just trying to get the facts.
. Mr. HISS. Mr. Stripling,
that had about 15 questions in it. One question that I think I distinctly
understood was that you asked me to testify as to why certain witnesses
refused to answer certain questions. I do not see how I could possibly
be expected to be able to
testify on that. I haven't any idea.
Mr. STRIPLING. Skip that one.
Mr. HISS. You also asked me
why my name appeared in various Government files. I thought that was the
implication. I do not know what was the context in which my name appeared.
The only other occasion except the May 1947 visit to the FBI agents, the
information Mr. Byrnes gave me in March or April of 1946, was sometime
back in, I think, 1938 or 1939-it may have been as late as 1940-I was asked
to come to the field office of the Bureau in Washington on K Street.
The interrogator prefaced
his questions with the statement that he was proceeding under an act of
Congress-I do not remember the citation.
Mr. STRIPLING. Hatch Act.
Mr. HISS. Which provided that
the names of all people appearing in the Dies committee files should be
investigated by the FBI and that an appropriation was made for that purpose,
that he was proceeding under that act. He asked me a series of questions
including whether I had ever been a member of an organization which, as
near as I can recall, he described as the Washington Committee for Democratic
Action. As far as I knew, that was the first time I had ever heard of that
organization. I testified then and I testify now I was never a member,
as far as I know I was not even on their mailing list.
When you receive a lot of
stuff in the mail unsolicited and have to throw it in the wastebasket,
if it comes regularly enough, you are apt to remember. I don't recall having
heard the name.
I also was told that an individual
in the Department of Agriculture back in the early thirties, an old-line
civil servant who is now not living, had accused a whole lot of people
over there of being Reds, radicals, and so on. I do know that the
whole atmosphere of a lot of new brash people coming into an old-line agency
caused a great deal of friction. I know the particular person I am now
referring to. I would not have accepted that person's judgment as being
a very rational judgment. If that person made a statement about me
and others, it could have been made way back
there-this has only come to my attention quite recently-I have no other
way of knowing why or how my name appeared in any files.
I can say that I have never
had the slightest indication from my superiors that they gave any credence
to what you appear to be giving credence to.
Mr. STRIPLING. Don't misunderstand
me. I didn't say I gave credence to that I said I had seen. I would just
as soon have this off the record, if you like.
Mr. HISS. It can stay on.
Mr. STRIPLING. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
(A short executive session
was taken off the record during which Mr. Hiss was out of the room.)
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hiss, the
committee has unanimously decided to hold a public hearing on Wednesday,
August 25, at 10: 30 a. m. in the caucus room on the third floor of the
Old House Office Building, at which time you and Whittaker Chambers will
be the witnesses and you will be asked questions in order to determine
which one is telling the truth, and you will have an opportunity to confront
one another.
Mr. HISS. I will be very glad
of the chance to confront Mr. Chambers.
Mr. NIXON. Would you prefer
to have it done informally?
Mr. HISS. My desire is to
see the man face to face.
Mr. STRIPLING. Executive or
open?
Mr. HISS. It doesn't matter.
Mr. NIXON. Where does it serve
your best purpose? You just want to see the guy?
Mr. HISS. It seems to me appropriate
that it be done under committee auspices under the circumstances.
Mr. NIXON. We are honestly
trying to get the right way. If you have a public session, it is a show.
Say it will be a meeting on the 25th in this room.
Mr. HISS. You want me here
in this room at 10: 30 a. m.?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. HEBERT. I am sympathetic
to your feelings about not wanting a big show, but the other witnesses
have wanted to confront accusers in public.
Mr. HISS. I had not expressed
a preference.
Mr. HEBERT. I wanted to clear
that up. Unless you express a preference I want it public. Is a public
meeting all right with you?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
MI'. HEBERT. I want to be
fair with everybody..
The CHAIRMAN. You be here
at 10: 15 on that day and we will first go into executive session with
the idea of determining after having the executive session whether or not
we will go into a public hearing.
Mr. STRIPLING. Can I be heard?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. STRIPLING. I think the
committee's concern is to determine who is telling the truth, and a public
session-this is a kind of unprecedented proposition, and if you say it
is going to be a public session, you know it will be ballyhooed into a
circus.
From everybody's standpoint,
I think it would be better--
Mr. HISS. May I speak?
Mr. STRIPLING. Yes. The committee
could exercise much better judgment by bringing them in in executive session.
If each wants counsel, bring them in. Let's arrive at the facts. The committee
could announce whatever action it wants, but I don't think a public session
would add anything.
Mr. HISS. I want to be clear
that I am not asking for an executive session as opposed to public. As
far as consideration to me after what has been done to my feelings and
my reputation, I think it would be like sinking the Swiss Navy. No public
show could embarrass me now. I am asking to see this man.
Mr. STRIPLING. Do you have
a preference?
Mr. HISS. I think it is for
the committee to decide.
Mr. NIXON. Do you care?
Mr. HISS. I think I prefer
a public session.
Mr. HEBERT. That is the reverse.
Mr. HISS. I don't think I
said that.
The CHAIRMAN. Which do you
want?
Mr. NIXON. Let him think it
over.
Mr. HISS. May I try to give
it
Mr. NIXON. We will also give
Mr. Chambers an opportunity.
Mr. HISS. Further consideration?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. Just say that it
will be arranged at that time, that no decision has been made as to the
type of hearing.
Mr. HISS. In any event, you
want me here at 10: 15 a. m. in this room.
May I ask a question about
the press?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I want
to tell you something. Every person in this room with the exception of
yourself has stood up and raised his right hand and taken an oath that
he will not divulge one single word of testimony given here this afternoon,
questions asked, so I am going to ask you to take the same oath.
Mr. NIXON. No; that is up
to him.
Mr. HEBERT. He can do what
he wants to do.
Mr. HISS. I have thought of
this problem and wanted to raise it specifically. I wanted to ask the committee's
views as to what they preferred. I will be guided as far as I think I honestly
can in terms of my own self-protection by what I take now to be the committee's
views that this is executive.
The CHAIRMAN. We are not going
to divulge anything.
Mr. NIXON. There is one thing
I think should be done in this case, and I see no reason why it shouldn't
be done. I think Mr. Hiss should be given a copy of the testimony for his
own use.
Mr. HISS. I would like to
have it.
Mr. HEBERT. I agree.
The CHAIRMAN. All right.
Mr. NIXON. Also I made a suggestion
before that only two copies of this testimony be made, one for Mr. Hiss
and one to be delivered to the committee clerk. Mr. Hiss can have it and
use it any way you like for your purposes.
Mr. HEBERT. Supplementing
that, the reporter has been instructed that he personally is to transcribe
this testimony taken here today, that nobody else is to see it, not his
office or anybody else like that, and only one copy to you and one to us.
We have sworn ourselves to secrecy. You are on your own.
Mr. NIXON. You would have
to be.
Mr. HISS. I would like to
say that I have no intention of making any public statement in terms of
self-protection. I don't want to make a commitment that I won't because
stories have appeared in the press.
Mr. NIXON. You might have
discussed it with your counsel, for example. What arrangements can be made
for the appearance of Mrs. Hiss? Would any time be convenient between now
and next Wednesday?
Mr. HISS. I think I should
try to reach her on the telephone.
Mr. NIXON. No hurry, but we
would like to do that before the public session on Wednesday.
Mr. STRIPLING. Can't we arrange
it somewhere in the East?
Mr. NIXON. New York?
Mr. STRIPLING. Is that all
right?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. STRIPLING. Absolutely
no publicity.
Mr. NIXON. We don't want it
here.
Mr. STRIPLING. Is that agreeable?
Mr. HISS. Certainly.
Mr. STRIPLING. That Mrs. Hiss
be heard in absolutely executive session.
Mr. HISS. Certainly. Thank
you very much for your courtesies.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you for
coming, and we will see you August 25.
(Whereupon, at 5: 30 p. m.,
the executive session was concluded.)
|