Vanzetti was questioned by Jeremiah McAnarney
Q. Now, what is your full name?
A. Bartolomeo Vanzetti.
Q. And Mr. Vanzetti, where were you born?
A. I born in Italy.
Q. What town and province?
A. Town of Villeefalletto; province of Cuneo; region of Piedmont.
Q. How old are you?
A. I am thirty-three years old.
Q. How long did you attend school, Mr. Vanzetti?
A. I go to school from six years old to thirteen years old.
Q. When you were thirteen. What did you go doing then?
A. When thirteen I left my town and my family. I went to the city of Cuneo to learn pastry cooking and candy making.
Q. How long did you work in that employment?
A. I worked in that city for a year and seven or eight months.
Q. Then where did you go and what did you do?
A. After that I went in another town called Cavour, in the province of Turin.
Q. What did you go doing there?
A. The same trade, the same work. I worked for Mr. Goetra for three years.
Q. For three years you worked there?
Q. Now, where did you go next?
A. When I left Cavour I like to go work in Turin.
A. Yes. That is the biggest city of the place, of the region, and I went to Turin looking for work. That time I never found work in Turin, and I took a job from the Italian agency and I went in a little town named Courgna.
Q. How long did you work in that town, about how long?
A. Seven or eight months. Then I came back to Turin.
Q. Then you came back to Turin. Did you work there?
A. Yes. I worked in two places, for Mr. Prandi, and Mr. Alraria.
Q. How long did you remain employed at Turin?
A. I worked for Mr. Prandi until I fall sick. I was nineteen years old at that time. I worked for him about nine or ten months.
Q. After you recovered from your sickness, where did you work then?
A. I have told you when I fall sick Mr. Alraria took pretty good care of me for the first day and he brought my father.
MR. KATZMANN. I can't hear the witness.
THE COURT. Just a little louder, will you please?
THE WITNESS. When I fell sick, when I worked for Mr. Alraria and I fell sick in his house, he took pretty good care of me and he wrote my father to come to see me because I was sick.
MR. KATZMANN. I ask that be stricken out.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. I may say to you-that is my fault, Brother.
Q. You must not tell us what other people said to you or what you said to other people. What I mean now, I am now asking you to tell us where you worked and when you worked in those places. Now, you have told us you became ill there in Turin. Now, after you recovered from your sickness, where did you go then? Did you still continue to work in Italy or go some place else?
A. No, because when I fall sick my father bring me home.
Q. Then you came home?
Q. Where were you employed after that?
A. In no other place in Italy. I stayed with my father. They liked to have me home, until I feel very good, very strong.
Q. When you got strong, where did you go next?
A. When I got strong, my mother fall sick and she died, after two months of the sickness.
Q. Following your mother's death, how soon after that did you leave
A. Six or seven months after.
Q. How old were you then?
A. Twenty years old.
Q. Where did you go?
A. I came to France, directly to this country.
Q. Went to France and then to the United States?
Q. Where in the United States did you land?
A. I land in New York.
Q. Do you remember the month you arrived in New York?
A. If I remember the day?
Q. Yes, if you do.
A. I do not remember the day, but it will be in the last day of June or the first day of July.
Q. And the year?
A. The year is 1908.
Q. Now, what did you do when you came to New York City?
A. The first place I went to work in a club in the West Side, 85th or 86th Street, uptown. I was there three or four months as a helper in the kitchen.
Q. What were you doing, helper in the kitchen?
Q. I see. Now, where did you go from there next?
A. From there I went to work in the Mouquin Restaurant.
Q. Was that a restaurant?
A. Yes, that is a restaurant on Sixth Avenue, almost across of 28th Street.
Q. How long did you remain there?
A. Seven or eight months.
Q. Where did you go from there?
A. From that I remained without work in New York. I found another man who was many years there who lived in this country, only in the country. He had been here in Massachusetts and in Connecticut before.
Q. This man had been in Connecticut and Massachusetts before?
Q. The man you met?
A. Yes. He bring me. He say he got no money.
Q. No. Just a minute.
MR. KATZMANN. No.
Q. You must not tell us what he said to you.
Q. Or what you said to him; but after you and he talked, what did you do?
A. We went to the country. We take a boat in New York, near Brooklyn Bridge, and we went in Massachusetts,--in Connecticut.
Q. Do you remember the town or city you went to in Connecticut?
A. Well, I remember that we go to Hartford, but I do not remember the place, but I did not remember the place where we come down from the boat. I do not know what town.
Q. Did you work in Hartford?
A. No. We did not work in Hartford. I don't work in Hartford.
Q. You went to Hartford, and from Hartford where did you go?
A. I can't tell you exactly, because we go in many towns and I do not know the names of the towns and I do not know the English in that time.
Q. You traveled around. What were you doing?
A. He go to see for work, asked for work in factories and on the job we see on the street.
Q. Where did you finally get your first work after you came to Connecticut?
A. In Springfield, Connecticut.
Q. In Springfield?
A. Springfield, Connecticut.
Q. All right. What did you go doing there?
A. I worked in the brick yard.
Q. How long did you work, do you think, in the brick yard at Springfield?
A. Six or seven months.
Q. Six or seven months?
A. Six or seven months.
Q. Where did you go after that?
A. After that, I went to Meriden, Connecticut.
Q. Did you work there?
A. Yes, I worked a long time. I worked about a year and a half in Meriden, Connecticut.
Q. What were you doing there?
A. Almost all the time I worked for a quarry,--stone.
Q. Stone quarry?
Q. After you got through working in the stone quarry, where did you go after that?
A. After that I left Meriden, and I went to New York again.
Q. Did you go to work in New York?
A. Yes, I worked in New York as a second pastry cook, M-Savaren Restaurant.
Q. How long did you work there?
A. Six months.
Q. Where next did you work?
A. Next I worked in a restaurant in 7th Avenue, between 37th,-47th and 48th Street. I worked for three or four months in that place.
Q. Where next did you work after that restaurant?
A. Next I came back to the country in a place near Springfield, Massachusetts.
Q. Near Springfield, Massachusetts?
A. Yes. Near Springfield; Yes, Springfield, Massachusetts.
Q. What work did you do there?
A. I worked in a track,--they make a new track, railroad track.
Q. Railroad track?
Q. How long did you work on the railroad track in Springfield?
A. Seven or eight months.
THE COURT. Springfield, Massachusetts or Connecticut?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Yes, Springfield, Massachusetts.
Q. After you got through working on the railroad track where did you next go, what city or town?
A. I went to Worcester.
Q. Well, you finally got to Worcester. How long did you work there? A. I worked in Worcester about two years.
Q. Two years?
Q. What were you doing there?
A. First I worked for the town to make a water reservoir.
Q. You worked for the city of Worcester?
Q. On the reservoir?
Q. How long?
A. About one year, until the job finished.
Q. Then, after working on the reservoir, what next work did you do?
A. In the winter time I went to work in the iron wire mill.
A. Iron wire mill.
Q. Iron wire mill in Worcester?
A. Yes. I worked there until the springtime. I worked for contractors. I do not remember any more the name of the contractors.
Q. Don't remember the name of the contractor?
Q. After you got through working at Worcester, Massachusetts, where next did you work?
A. After I went to Plymouth, Massachusetts.
Q. You then came to Plymouth, Massachusetts? And have you lived there ever since?
A. I been out of Plymouth, Massachusetts after that.
Q. Now, when, what year did you come to Plymouth, Massachusetts?
A. I should say,-I can't exactly, but I should say I came the year 1913.
Q. What was your first employment after you got to Plymouth Massachusetts?
A. I worked for a year or a year and a half for Mr. Stone.
Q. For who?
A. For Mr. Stone.
Q. Mr. Stone?
Q. What was his business?
A. I do not know what it was, his business, because he is a rich people and he go there only in the summer. He got a big villa for his family.
Q. He has got a big villa for his family?
A. Yes, and a garden and farms, and I worked there.
Q. How long did you say you worked there?
A. More than a year, about a year and a half, fourteen or fifteen or eighteen months.
Q. Mr. Stone?
THE COURT. Stone & Webster, was it?
Q. Was the name,-does Stone & Webster sound natural to you?
A. No. There is only one family. We call him Mr. Stone and Mrs. Stone.
Q. You knew his first name?
A. -No, I don't know his first name.
Q. How far was this villa away from the centre of Plymouth, do you know? A. Oh, yes.
Q. About how far?
A. I should say a mile and a half, I should think.
Q. A mile and a half down toward, down south or north of Plymouth?
A. Toward south, toward the monument, but following the bay.
Q. Did that border on the water? Was it next to the ocean?
A. Yes, it is near the ocean. He has a big place for swimming in his garden. He took water from the ocean and put it in that.
Q. Well, we have got a pretty good description of it now. After getting through working for Mr. Stone, where next were you employed?
A. I was employed by the Cordage.
Q. The Cordage Company at Plymouth?
Q. How long were you in their employ?
A. I was there for more than a year, a year and a half, something like that.
Q. Where was your next employment, Mr. Vanzetti?
A. Then I start to work outside, to make the water breaker up near the Pilgrim place in Plymouth.
Q. You worked on the water breaker?
A. Yes. Outside. Not for the Cordage. I left the Cordage. I left the Cordage because I worked out side in the Cordage, and I like to work outside, and there was a slack in that time and they don't need so many men outside, and asked me if I want to go inside to work.
MR. KATZMANN. One moment, if your Honor please.
Q. The objection is you are now telling us what they said. That is all right, but be careful not to mention it again. You did talk. You did not go back to work inside, did you?
A. I go back to work inside. I don't gain enough and I left.
A. I worked on piece work and I don't make enough money. I left the job.
Q. You left the job. Now, where did you go?
A. I go to work and make the water breaker near the Pilgrim shaft.
Q. Who was the man that hired you on the breakwater?
A. There is a man come from Boston. I don't remember his name. The first water breaker I do that was for the state.
Q. It was employment by the state?
Q. How long were you working on that job?
A. I don't remember exactly.
Q. Well, when you got through on that state work, what was your next work?
A. Pretty soon after we started another water breaker for private people.
Q. Do you know the contractor that employed you?
A. I know him if I see him, but I do not remember his name. He is not of Plymouth.
Q. Not of Plymouth?
Q. How long do you think that employment was?
A. Three or four months.
Q. What was your next work after that?
A. After that I worked for the bricklayer, helper.
Q. You went doing what? I mean, what did you say that was? You told the story, but we could not hear it.
A. I go to work in a school there in Plymouth in front of the green square, in front of the monument, near the depot.
Q. Near the depot?
Q. Doing what?
A. A new branch of the school in back of the older school.
Q. Working on an addition to the school?
Q. Laying bricks,-helping bricks, you say?
A. I worked to dig out the cellar, and I worked to help the bricklayers, to carry the bricks, and so on. I do everything there as a laborer.
Q. Do you know how long that work was?
A. Seven or eight months.
Q. What was your next employment after you got through working on the school?
A. I can't tell any further exactly, because in Plymouth it is no longer. We change the job. When the job stop we have to go to the boss and get a job for another boss in there, and work three or four months, work one month, work two or three weeks for him, and then the job stop and we have to work in some other place; but in Plymouth I worked for every contractor, almost every contractor, and I worked every day. Everybody know that.
Q. Will you kindly tell us the names of some of the contractors that you worked for at Plymouth?
A. I worked for Mr. Howland.
Q. What contract work does Mr. Howland do?
A. To make a house, a concrete job everywhere.
Q. Did you work for Mr. Howland on more than one occasion?
A. Yes, I work for him two or three times.
Q. What other contractor besides Mr. Howland did you work for?
A. Work for Mr. Sampson.
Q. Sampson. What is Mr. Sampson's business?
A. He is a contractor, just the same.
Q. What work, contract work, does he do?
A. He make the building and house and concrete work.
Q. Do you know about how many times you have worked for Mr. Sampson?
A. Two times, surely.
Q. Well, that we may check up on that. About when was the last time that you think you worked for Mr. Sampson, how long ago?
A. I started to work for Sampson the last time in the spring of 1920.
1697 Q. Or to peddle fish?
A. Don't need to have a license for peddling fish in Plymouth.
Q. How much in 1919, how much did you peddle,-dig clams and sell them and peddle fish? About how much of the time?
A. Three or four months in the fall, until Christmas.
Q. All right. Now, you say that you worked in March 1920, for this contractor, I think you said Sampson?
A. Yes, Sampson, Puritan Woolen Mill.
Q. At the Puritan Woolen Mill. Now, what next work did you do after you got through working for Sampson at the mill?
A. I worked at, when I start to cut ice, about first of March, I worked for Mr. Howland. I worked for him down before I went in the springtime and worked for Mr. Sampson.
MR. KATZMANN. May I ask that be stricken out, if your Honor please, as not being responsive?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. That may be. That wasn't my question. I will put another question to meet that situation.
Q. Before March 1st, did you do some other work that you have not told me?
Q. What was it?
A. When I left to cut ice for Patterson, I went to see and ask work for Mr. Howland.
Q. Who was the ice man?
A. The ice man?
Q. What is the ice man's name?
Q. Patterson. After you worked, finished working for Patterson on the ice, whom next did you work for?
A. For Mr. Howland.
Q. Howland? A. Howland, and I worked there until the big snowfall.
Q. What work were you doing for Mr. Howland?
A. I worked at the zinc mill. They make a new branch of the shop. They were building a new branch of the shop. We dig in the cellar.
Q. You say the zinc mill?
A. Yes. The mill where they make the zinc.
Q. Make metal zinc?
Q. Well, now, after you got through working there on the cellar of that building, did you do any other work before March 1st? A. Yes. When the snow come we were compelled to stop there. I went to clean up the street for the town of Plymouth, to clean up the street, free the street from snow.
Q. Any other work you remember you did that spring?
A. When I finished for the town I went to clean up the railroad, both the depots, passenger depot and the freight depot.
Q. After you worked cleaning up the snow for the town you went to work for the railroad, you mean, steam railroad or electric company?
A. For the steam railroad. Worked for cleaning up the snow around there in the passenger railroad, passenger station and freight station, both.
Q. Now, can you tell us any other work you did before March 1st?
A. When I finished there I go to work for Mr. Sampson to make that conduit of water.
Q. Yes, you have told us that. Now, we have got into the middle of March, 1920. What work did you do after that time?
A. After that time I started to peddle fish.
Q. Yes. And where then were you getting your fish?
A. I got some from Boston, and some other times from Mr. Carbone, of Plymouth.
Q. When you got it from Boston, how did you get it?
A. By express.
Q. I see. And when you got it from Mr. Carbone, how would you get it?
A. Mr. Carbone got fish from Boston. Sometimes it would be expressed, and some other time when he has a big truck and he has a man work for him and sometimes he carries some things with this big truck from Plymouth to Boston, and in this time he was in Boston he take the fish.
Q. You must talk a little bit louder, because we want to hear. These gentlemen over here at this table can't hear, they want to know everything you say.
A. Yes. I say that Carbone sometimes received fish by express, by means of the express from Boston, and other times he sent his driver with a big truck to carry something from Plymouth to Boston. Then when he came back he carried the fish on his own truck.
Q. Mr. Sacco, he wants to hear what you say, too.
A. All right.
Q. So you must talk now so that you know he can hear every word.
THE COURT. Can you hear all right? If you cannot, just let us know.
Q. How much did you peddle in March?
A. I peddled all the month of March, from the first week of March. I peddled until the end, the end of March. In April,- I think it is better you call the interpreter. Call the interpreter.
[Through the interpreter.] I want to say that when I start to sell the fish in March, I sold fish until the middle of April.
THE WITNESS. [To the interpreter.] No, not that exactly.
[The witness speaks to the interpreter in Italian.]
THE INTERPRETER. "I started to sell fish in March and I continued to sell fish in the month of April."
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Continued to sell fish in the month of April.
[The following testimony is given without the use of the interpreter.]
Q. Can you tell us how many times you got fish from Mr. Carbone during the month of March?
A. No, I cannot tell.
Q. All right. Can you tell me how many times You got it yourself
A. Neither; I don't remember if I have it two or three times from Boston or five, I don't remember, but I can--
Q. Did you have any particular route? I mean, did you go on certain streets, or where, what part of Plymouth did you peddle in?
A. Oh, ordinarily I start to peddle fish at the depot of Plymouth and I went naturally near to Kingston.
Q. Towards the north, Kingston?
Q. Was that a regular route you had?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Coming down, now, into April, can you tell us any in April? Or, strike that out. Did you get your fish in April by express yourself or by Mr. Carbone?
A. I got some by express and some by Carbone.
Q. Do you remember how many times, if more than once, you got it by express yourself?
A. I don't remember exactly, but I am sure I got it more than once. I should say that I am more than once by express.
Q. How much would you get when you got a load? How much fish would you get at a load?
A. How much fish? Sometimes 150 pounds; sometimes 175.
MR. KATZMANN. Can't hear.
THE WITNESS. Something like that. That is all.
MR. KATZMANN. Can't hear the answer.
Q. A little louder.
A. Sometimes 150 pounds; sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less.
Q. I call your attention to April 8th. I call your attention to I was going to show him this one-express receipt of April 8th, American Railway, 488 pounds of fish, express charges $1.24, war tax, 4, or 7, total $1.31. Well, 448 pounds of fish April 8th, 1920. Now, how long would it take you to sell 488 pounds of fish?
MR. KATZMANN. One moment, if your Honor please.
Q. How much fish would you sell in a day? About how much, when you peddled?
MR. KATZMANN. One moment, if your Honor please.
THE COURT. What is the objection?
MR. KATZMANN. How much of that fish did he sell April 8th? He is talking about a specific consignment.
THE COURT. I think he changed that, did he not?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. I did, yes.
THE COURT. That is what I understood.
MR. KATZMANN. Then you weren't referring to that particular comment?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. No. Perhaps I will have the stenographer read the question.
[The question is read.]
THE WITNESS. I can sell 150.
A. I can sell 150, 200 pounds in a day.
Q. I see.
A. That depends when I have the customers, because in the springtime I got plenty of customers and there was no fish men in Plymouth, and everybody buy fish, as a rule.
Q. Fishermen don't fish in April?
A. No. They start in April, but not the first week of April.
Q. If you got 488 pounds on April 8th, about how much time would it take you to sell that?
MR. KATZMANN. Now, if your Honor please, I object to that question.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. I submit it. I want to show about how long it would take him to peddle out 488 pounds.
MR. KATZMANN. I don't object to that.
THE COURT. I suppose the purpose is to show that quantity of fish, it would take him more than a certain time to dispose of it, accounting for his time and the disposition of this fish. I suppose that is the purpose of it. Why isn't that competent?
MR. KATZMANN. I think it is, your Honor, if that is the question, but I don't understand that to be the question. How long would it have taken him to sell that 488 pounds?
THE COURT. I suppose, assuming if he got 488 pounds on April 8th, how long did it take him to dispose of the 488 pounds of fish.
Q. Do you understand the question?
A. Yes. How long?
Q. --did it take you to dispose of the 488 pounds of fish?
A. Three days.
Q. About three days. Now, that seems to be the only receipt I have in your name. Take April 8th. Do you remember whether you got any fish, and if so, how much did you get, from Mr. Carbone after April 8th, or do you remember whether you got any or not?
A. I remember that I have fish from Carbone after April 8th.
Q. You got fish?
A. Yes. I am sure, positive, but I do not remember, I don't remember how much, if three time, two time, or one time, and how much.
Q. Well, tell us about how much you peddled, all together, now. Strike that out. After April 8th, how much did you peddle up to the first of May?
A. After the 8th of April, I peddled just one week. That is all.
Q. All right. Then what did you do after that?
A. After that I go to Brockton Saturday. I finished on Thursday to peddle the fish.
Q. You finished now Thursday. You finished peddling fish?
Q. Now, can you tell us what part of the month that was?
A. Oh, I know for surely it was the 15th of April.
Q. On the 15th of April?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You finished peddling fish?
Q. Did you peddle on the 15th? Did you peddle fish on the 15th?
A. Yes, sir, I peddled fish on the 14th and the 15th, surely, if not on the 13th, too.
Q. Well, on what route were you on the 14th?
A. In what?
Q. In what route? Strike that out. Where, what part of Plymouth did you peddle on the 14th?
A. I should say that I started from Plymouth depot and I come down until Atlantic Avenue, something like that, and then I go down in Kingston because the American, they like to buy the fish the same day, they buy the same day they eat, and the Italians like better to buy the fish the day before and put the salt in top, in fish; and I was unable to make all the trip in one day, so on the day the Americans buy the fish, on Wednesday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday up to the American fellow on that day, and the day then where the Italian fellow lived; and I have many customers, American fellows, from Plymouth depot to go until Castle Street. It is more exactly Ocean Street.
Q. Continue, now. On the 15th, where did you peddle?
A. On the 15th, I have a few, not very many, fish in the morning of the 15th, and I peddled in Cherry Street, Standish Avenue and Cherry Court, down Suosso's Lane, around that place, around that centre. Castle Street is the last place I sell fish on the day of the 15th.
Q. Now, tell us anything else that you did on the day of the 15th.
A. On the day of the 15th, when I was going by Suosso's Lane, from Suosso's Lane I reached Court Street and then I turned towards Plymouth, toward south, and I was intentioning to go in Castle Street. Almost on the corner of Castle Street I met this man that go around with cloths.
Q. Yes. A. And he asked me,--I can't say that.
Q. You met that man with the cloths?
Q. Did you do anything with him?
A. Yes. He stopped me. He says something to me.
Q. Very good. You are not going to give the conversation. That is right. Now, you talked, I assume. He talked, too. Did you do anything?
A. Yes, I buy a piece of cloth from him.
Q. Yes. Now, what was done with the cloth?
A. He sold me a piece of the cloth and I told him I don't know nothing about the cloth.
MR. KATZMANN. One moment.
Q. You are telling us now what you said. You talked about the cloth, didn't you?
THE COURT. In consequence of that, what did you do?
A. I bring him to the Brini house. I knew that the Brini wife was in the house, and I know she worked in the woolen mill and she know the cloth.
Q. You brought this man to Brini's house?
Q. You knew she had worked in the woolen mill?
Q. Did she look at the cloth?
Q. I can't ask you what she said, but after she examined the cloth,
looked it over, did you or did you not buy it?
A. Not in the house of Mrs. Brini.
Q. Then you went out after she looked at the cloth, and you had your conversation, you and the man went out?
A. Yes, he went out alone and I went out a little after him.
Q. After you had got out, what happened then?
A. I go around my cart, the fish cart, with the fish in, and I found that man wait for me, and he say, "If you want"--
Q. Now, again be careful, what he said. After you had, when he said what he did and you did what talk you wanted to do, did you, yes or no, buy the cloth?
A. Yes, I buy the cloth.
Q. What did you pay for it?
A. I should say something like twelve dollars, but I don't remember exactly. Not twelve dollars, not twelve dollars, but $12.75 or something like that. I give him fifty cents after to buy because he say he lost.
Q. What time in the day was that, about what time?
A. Near one o'clock, about half past eleven, something like that, half past twelve, about one o'clock.
Q. Now, you say then you had your fish about all sold?
A. Yes. Then I went to Castle Street and I finished my fish.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. Then I took my cart and I went in Ocean Street in front of Mr. Corl's house.
Q. All right. Now, what did you do when you got down in front of Corl's house?
A. I left my cart there and I went down to the shore. I have finished the fish. I went down to the shore.
Q. When you got down to the shore, who did you see there?
A. I saw on my left side near the house where they build the boat I saw Mr. Corl in the boat, in his boat. -The boat was on the sand.
Q. The boat was on the sand?
A. On the shore.
Q. What was he doing?
A. I went there and I saw he was painting the boat.
Q. Again I can't ask you what you said or what he said. Did you have a conversation with him?
A. A long conversation.
Q. About how long were you there with him?
A. More than an hour anyhow.
Q. And do you remember whether any one else came while you were there near Mr. Corl while he was working on his boat? Do you remember whether any one else came there?
A. Yes, two men came.
Q. Two men. Were they strangers to you or men you knew?
A. I know them.
Q. Who were the men that came there?
A. I think it was Mr. Jesse.
Q. Mr. Who?
A. Mr. Jesse.
Q. Is he a man you knew?
A. Yes, I know him. He is a boat builder there in Seaside.
Q. Who was the other man who came?
A. The other man is Mr. Holmes, but he don't stay long. He say two or three words and then go away.
Q. What is Mr. Holmes's business? What does he do?
A. He worked for the lumber yard, in the office of the lumber yard. I do not know if he is boss, if he is owner or not.
Q. Whose lumber yard does he work in?
A. I call that lumber yard. I do not know if he is owner or if he is employee there.
Q. You do not know the name, whose lumber yard it is?
A. No, do not know.
Q. How near is this lumber yard to where Corl was working on his boat?
A. It is a little back toward Plymouth. It is a street without a house but I do not know the name.
Q. Can you see the lumber wharf or the lumber yard from where Corl was working on his boat? Do you know whether you can see it or not?
A. I can't tell you for sure because it is very easy to see that, but my opinion is the building where Jesse worked to build the boats was in front of his, and so we can't see that, but I can't tell sure.
Q. After you left Corl there at the boat, where did you go?
A. I came back and took the cart in the street, then go home.
Q. Where do you keep the fish cart, the cart you sell fish in?
A. I keep my fish cart in the yard of Mr. Fortini, where I board.
Q. Did you bring the fish cart home?
Q. You say you came to what house?
A. I don't came from no house. I left the fish cart in front of Corl's house when I go to the shore, and when I left Corl to the shore I came back into Ocean Street, and I take the cart and I go home.
THE COURT. We will have the morning recess, now.
Q. Now, you brought the fish cart home to your own house. What did you do then?
A. Then I changed the clothes.
Q. All right. After you changed your clothes, what did you do?
A. Made supper.
Q. You had your supper?
Q. You eat. After you had your meal, what did you do then the rest of the day?
A. I went out of the home, but I don't remember where go.
Q. About what time did you get your supper?
A. Six 0 clock.
Q. Did you stay in Plymouth that night?
Q. Now, the next day, what did you do? April 16th.
A. The next day I dig clams.
Q. All right. How long did you work at digging clams?
A. I dig clams two or three hours and then I sold them clams in an hour or an hour and a half.
Q. About what time did you get through selling clams on the 16th, about what part of the day, do you think?
A. Well, afternoon, but I don't remember well, I don't remember if two or three or four o'clock. I know it is in the afternoon.
Q. Did you do anything that day besides dig-the clams and sell them?
A. Besides digging the clams, I went to Marvelli's store.
Q. Did anything take place there? Did you do anything there?
A. Yes. I went there to consult the Boston Post to see the hour of the tide, the hour of the tide, of the water, because I can only dig when the water is out, and the water changed every day. We have to know the tide.
Q. Let us take it. You had been digging clams-you dug clams the 16th?
Q. Now, when was it you went to Marvelli's?
A. In the morning when I go out from the house.
Q. Well, in the morning. I asked you if you did anything else that day. You go to Marvelli's, you see about the tide, you dig clams, you sell the clams?
Q. It is about four o'clock. Did you do anything else the rest of the day?
A. Nothing particular that I remember.
Q. Did you stay in Plymouth that night?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is April 16th. What did you do April 17th?
A. April 17th?
Q. Yes. What did you do in the forenoon?
A. In the forenoon I go looking for work.
Q. Where did you go?
A. I go looking for work in a new garage, they were building an automobile garage in front of the car barn house.
Q. In front of the car barn house?
Q. They were building a garage in front of the car barns?
Q. What part of Plymouth?
A. Towards south after-after Plymouth Square; a little while towards the south.
Q. Who was the contractor who had that work?
A. It was a stranger. He was a contractor of some other town. I do not know his name. I forget his name. He got a little sign. I read his name, but I forget now.
Q. You went there for work. Did you go to work?
A. No, I did that in the 16th, too, in the morning.
Q. You went on the 16th. No work then. All right. Now, up to noon, or, what time was it you were there looking for work the 17th, what part of the day?
A. Early in the morning.
Q. All right.
A. About seven o'clock.
Q. Were you there working on this job at the garage that day or not?
A. Only a few men and the other were out. They were in their home, at rest.
Q. Did you know why they were not working?
A. Because there is no cement.
Q. And from whom did you learn that?
A. I learned it from Sampson in that morning; the same boss of that job told me that.
Q. Did you see Sampson that morning also?
A. No. I learned from Sampson when I stopped to work for him. He says, "I have no work for you because there is no cement. I cannot have no cement."
MR. KATZMANN. I ask that may be stricken out.
THE COURT. It maybe.
Q. You did not get any work on the 17th?
Q. What did you do on the afternoon of the 17th?
A. I take the train. I went to Brockton.
Q. To Brockton. You took a train?
A. Yes, I take a train, Plymouth to Whitman, and from Whitman to Brockton I take the electric car.
Q. What time did you get to Brockton?
A. I can't say exactly, four or five o'clock in the afternoon. I don't remember.
Q. Who did you go to see? Where did you go to in Brockton?
A. I was to Mr. Caldera.
Q. Where did you have your supper that night?
A. With Mr. Caldera, in Mr. Caldera's home.
Q. Where did you sleep that night, the night of the 17th?
A. I should say that I sleep in Boston, but I don't remember exactly.
Q. Did you go to Boston?
Q. You do not know where in Boston you slept?
Q. Who did you see when you went to Boston?
A. When I went to Boston I saw many of my old friends.
A. Saw Manchini.
Q. Where does he live?
A. He lives in Readville.
Q. You saw him in Boston?
Q He lives in Readville. The fact that you stayed in Boston, did you --I want to know where you, here you stayed.
A. Yes, I stayed in Boston.
Q. Do you remember who you saw besides that man.
Q. What other man did you see, do you remember?
A. I remember Felicani.
Q. Anybody else?
A. I remember Colorarossi.
Q. You write it, and then talk it out loud.
A. Yes. [Witness does so]
Q. C-o-l-o-r-o-s-s-i. That's good enough. [Who did you stay with that night, the night of the 18th? A. I sleep in the room of Colorarossi.] Q. You stayed with Colorarossi. Where does he live?
A. He live up in the end of Hanover Street, toward the white house, toward the villa there, they call it, but I can't tell exactly the name of the street.
Q. What did you do on the day of the 18th?
A. On the day of the 18th we come down together in the street and, we make breakfast in the American lunch room in I think they call Scollay Square, that square in the bottom of Hanover Street.
Q. Scollay Square?
A. I think that is what they call it, but I am not sure.
Q. You had breakfast there. Now, where did you go?
A. Then we go down toward the north side, toward North Square, and we meet many other friends, and me and him, and two or three others together, we make dinner at the Boni restaurant.
Q. And that is where?
A. Boni restaurant is in North Square.
Q. North Square?
Q. That is an Italian restaurant?
Q. After dinner, where did you go?
A. After dinner we went to East Boston.
A. That is Maverick Square.
Q. Maverick Square?
Q. East Boston?
Q. Where there did you go?
A. We went in the ball of the Italian Naturalization Club.
Q. The rooms of the Italian Naturalization Club?
A. The rooms of the Italian Naturalization Club, in the hall.
Q. In the hall?
Q. Is that hall there in Maverick Square?
Q. How long did you stay at the hall there?
A. We stayed there until five or six o'clock.
Q. And where did you spend the evening, and where did you sleep?
A. I come back to Plymouth in the evening.
Q. Of the 18th?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, on the 19th?
A. The 19th I stayed at Plymouth, in Plymouth, don't do nothing.
Q. Was there any peddling of fish on the 19th?
A. I have no fish.
Q. Was there any fish you could get or did you try to get any?
A. No, I have no fish ready to sell because I was in Boston on the day before, and in the morning, I don't found the fish on the morning of the 19th.
Q. What did you do on the 19th? You said you came home to Plymouth on the 19th?
A. On the day of the 18th, in the evening of the 18th.
Q. All right. Now, on the day of the 19th, can you tell us what you did?
A. Not particularly. Go around there in Plymouth, and look for a job, that is all.
Q. Did you get any work?
A. No, no, cannot.
Q. Did you stay in Plymouth that night?
Q. How about the 20th?
A. On the 20th I go to see Mr. Carbone if he has fish. I go there in water side. I do not find any fish. I do not find any job. After looking for fish I look for job. I don't find no work and no fish.
Q. Did you do anything at Carbone's place?
A. Not in the morning.
Q. Did you at any time in the day do anything at Carbone's?
A. Yes, in the evening I was paying Carbone for the fish.
Q. Do you remember how much you paid him?
A. I don't remember.
Q. What bill was it, or tell me how long a period was it you owed him this bill? How long had you owed him this money?
A. From the week before.
Q. Do you remember about how much it was you paid him?
A. I don't remember how much I paid him. I know that I have to pay him. I pay him and he give me two cigars.
Q. Did you keep a bank account? Did you pay by cash or by check?
A. Oh, I pay cash when I like. See, Mr. Carbone, he don't care about,--he give me the fish and when I am ready I go there and I pay.
Q. All right. Now, April 21st, what were you doing that day?
Do you remember?
A. On the evening of April 20th I was in the house of Mr. Carbone, and then the chief of police come there, and he say--
MR. KATZMANN. One moment.
Q. Well, you are in the house of Carbone. Do you remember what day that was?
A. On the evening of the 20th.
Q. What day of the week?
Q. You think Tuesday. You were in Carbone's house that evening?
Q. And did the chief of police come there? You mean the Plymouth chief of police?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And now, again, we cannot tell what was said, but he did say something?
A. Yes, he say something.
Q. Who was there besides you and Carbone, and the chief? Anybody else?
A. The wife of Mr. Carbone,-- Mrs. Carbone.
Q. Mr. Carbone, and his wife, and you?
Q. And the chief came in. After the chief told you what he did, what did you do or what did everyone do, as far as you know?
A. The chief and Mr. Carbone and Mrs. Carbone left home and go towards the waterside.
Q. Mr. and Mrs. Carbone and the chief?
A. Not Mrs. but Mr. Carbone.
Q. Mr. I beg you pardon. Mr. Carbone and the chief went to the waterside?
Q. And where did you go?
A. I stayed a few minutes there in the house with the wife and then I go to speak to the chief and to Mr. Carbone and then I came back to Seaside.
Q. Now, what hour in the evening was it that the chief came to the house that night, Tuesday night?
A. After supper. I don't remember. Six or seven o'clock, seven o'clock.
Q. What did you do when you went to Seaside that night?
A. Mr. Carbone told me--
Q. Now, again--
Q. Mr. Carbone told you something?
Q. Did you go to Seaside then?
Q. When you went to Seaside, what did you do?
A. I go to speak to the driver of Mr. Carbone.
Q. To the driver?
A. The automobile driver, the chauffeur.
Q. Did you see him?
Q. Did you talk to him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he do anything?
A. Well, we stayed together.
Q. You said something to him?
A. Yes. I said something to him.
Q. After you said something to him, did he do anything, the driver?
A. No, no.
Q. He did not? A. Nothing about an automobile, no.
Q. Did you do anything, pardon me, after you spoke to the driver,
did you do anything? A. Not physically. We stayed together. We speak together. That is all. But we did not do anything.
Q. Now, we have you at Seaside talking to Carbone's driver. A. Yes, sir.
Q. As a matter of fact, was the conversation about the matter that the chief had spoken about, or is that too much for you? A. Not all that. We speak some other thing that Mr. Carbone told me to say.
Q. Now, you are going to get into conversation. Well, anyway, after you get through talking with the driver, what did you do? A. Back to my home in my room to spend the night, to sleep.
Q. What did you do the next day? That would be the 21st, Wednesday. Do you remember what you did that day? A. Yes. The first thing in the morning I go to the wharf, to the wharf. Then I go to seek for a job again.
Q. You went down- A. I speak a long time.
THE COURT. That is the 21st or 22nd?
THE WITNESS. The 21st.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. He has just described the 20th, which he says he thought was Tuesday, and I ask him now the next day, the 21st.
Q. What did you go to the wharf for? A. For to see if they found the man that fall in the water the day before.
Q. Had they found the man that had fallen in the water? A. No.
Q. You then went looking for work. Had you learned the name of the man that had fallen in the water? A. Oh, yes, I know that man the night before.
Q. What man? A. Pacci.
Q. Did you get any work that day? A. I don't get work and I don't get fish. Nobody go to fish there in that place.
Q. What did you do Wednesday afternoon or Wednesday night? Do you remember? Well, were you around Plymouth all day? A. On the day after he fall down, yes.
Q. Were you home that night?
A. Yes, I spent the night in my room.
Q. You did not get work, you say?
Q. On the next day, the 22nd, that would be Thursday, where did you go that morning?
A. The first thing, I went to the dock to seek for the –
Q. The dock?
A. Yes, to the wharf, and I found, I be there and he was there then.
Q. You haven't said much, tell us--
A. I went to the wharf of Plymouth, and I go toward the end of the wharf. There was many fishermen there, Italian and some Irish fishermen, and I say, well,--
MR. KATZMANN. One minute.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Can't tell the conversation.
Q. Did you see anything?
A. Yes. On the left side of the wharf, down on the shore, was a boat and inside of the boast was the dead body of the Pacci.
Q. They had Pacci's body in the boat?
Q. Near the dock?
Q. What time of day was that?
A. Early in the morning, about seven o'clock.
Q. Now, what did you do after that?
A. Then the undertaker automobile came to bring the body, and the dory, the boat, was down from the wharf, from the end of the wharf, and the automobile in this end, in the corner of the wharf where the dory was, and they want to throw away the body, throw out and put it on the wharf, and then from the wharf carry in the automobile, and I suggested they bring the body along the shore and go three steps, go on Water Street. The automobile went there, and put him in the automobile along that way.
Q. Did they do what you suggested?
A. They did that.
Q. And the body was taken in the automobile?
Q. Tell us what you did the rest of the day?
A. The rest of the day I went another time to seek for work in that place at the garage in front of the car barn.
Q. That is, a garage in front of the car barn?
A. Yes, on, the same morning.
Q. Were you able to get work? Did you get work?
A. No, no, no, no work. There is no cement, see.
Q. Well, that afternoon or evening, where did you go?
A. When I came back home, I should say in the same, morning, I should say before twelve o'clock, I took a train and I go to Boston.
Q. Then you, after going down to the garage, you then came back and took a train and went to Boston. Now, where did you go in Boston, please? A. I went in East Boston, in the Italian Naturalization Club.
Q. To this same club, the place you spoke of before? A. Yes.
Q. Now, where did you spend that evening? A. In that place.
Q. I next pass to where did you sleep that night? A. I sleep at Colorarossi's.
Q. What did you do the next day? A. The next day, we go around. It was on Sunday. We meet many other friends there in the North Side. Then we come back again on the train
Q. Where did you spend the next night, if you can remember? A. Yes. We decided to send a man to New York that evening, and my friend asked-
MR. KATZMANN. One moment.
Q. You can't tell what your friend said. A. And I was the man that they decided to go.
Q. Go to New York? A. Yes.
Q. Did you go to New York? When did you go to New York, do you remember? A. On Sunday night. I took a train at South Station, Boston, I should say twenty minutes after, half past ten, something like that, and I went to New York.
Q. Where did you go in New York? A. When I arrived in New York on Monday morning, I went to an old friend of mine, because I met many others that I never met before, and I like to have him introduce me. He has a store in uptown, cigar and paper store.
Q. What did you go to New York for?
MR. KATZMANN. How is that competent, if your Honor please?
THE COURT. How is that involved in this matter at all, Mr. McAnarney?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Well,--
THE COURT. I haven't heard any claim of the Commonwealth which has in any manner attacked his whereabouts on these dates, or on this date in particular.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Unless it is, then I won't press it.
Q. You are in New York. I assume you went there on some business. How long did you stay in New York? A. I stayed three days. In the evening of the Thursday I took a boat from New York toward Boston, but I came down from the boat at Providence, Rhode Island, and then I took a train and I went to Boston, and from Boston I came back to Plymouth.
Q. Now, you are in Plymouth now after that trip to New York. Tell us where you were the days following, the day after you came back from New York, back to Plymouth? A. I was in Plymouth. I was in Plymouth.
Q. Now, when next did you leave Plymouth after you got back from the New York trip? A. I left Plymouth on the evening of May lst.
Q. And where did you go? A. I go to Boston.
Q. All right. Where? Who did you see? A. I seen many of my friends.
Q. And where did you stay in Boston that night, or, did you stay in Boston? Where did you stay? A. No. Yes, I stayed in Boston that night.
Q. Where? A. In Colorarossi's home.
Q. And the next day. That is May 1st. Now, May 2nd, where did you stay? A. May 2nd?
Q. What did you do? A. I came from Boston to the Sacco house.
Q. Sacco. He lives in Stoughton? A. Yes. I mean in May 3rd I came to the Sacco house. May 2nd I live in Boston. I stay in Boston.
Q. Let me see if I get that. You say May 1st you were where? A. In Boston. I went to Boston.
Q. May 1st, the night of May 1st, where did you stay? A. I lived with Colorarossi.
Q. Colorarossi. Now, going back for a minute, have you told us as well as you can the places you went the week before May 1st? Have you told us all the places you recall? A. I do not know. . I did not tell you before I went to New York when I left Plymouth on the date the 20th I go to Readville.
Q. To Readville. That is what I had in mind. Where did you go in Readville? A. Mr. Manchini's.
Q. And where is that house? You say in Readville? A. In Readville, in front of the depot, about two hundred feet, three hundred feet.
Q. What I want to know is, did you or did you not stay there any night? A. Yes, I stayed there three days.
Q. Now, what did you do there?
MR. KATZMANN. One moment. How is that competent?
THE COURT. Does that have any particular bearing, Mr. McAnarney?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Nothing, only--
THE COURT. If YOU think it does?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Well, only just his story. He did some work in a garden there for him. All right. I won't press it. I will go by it.
Q. You have got down to May 1st. Perhaps just as well to speak of this incidentally, and you say you were at Colorarossi's house. May 2d, where did you go May 2d? A. I continued to stay in Boston.
Q. All right on May 2d. Where did you stay the night or the evening of May 2d? A. In the same,--Colorarossi's house and the room.
Q. Where did you go May 3d? A. May 3d, I went to the Fish Pier, to see for fish.
Q. In Boston? A. Yes.
THE COURT. What date did he say?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. May 3d, if I am following it right.
Q. Well, you went to this pier to see about fish. What did you find out about fish? A. I found that the fish was very dear. I cannot buy the fish and sell the fish at that price, see.
Q. Do you remember now the price they wanted? A. I do not remember the price. I remember how I sell the fish.
Q. You remember what, please? A. How much I sold the fish in Plymouth, because I sold always the same price.
Q. You say the price was too high? A. Yes.
Q. What did you do after that, the rest of the day or that evening? A. That day I took a train, that morning I took a train and I go to the Sacco house.
Q. When had you seen Sacco before that day? We will call that May 3d. Now, when before that had you seen Sacco? A. I have seen Sacco on the Sunday before.
Q. Where did you see him? A. I seen him in the Naturalization Club.
Q. Maverick Square, East Boston? A. Yes.
Q. Did you talk with him? A. Yes, we stayed together.
Q. Now, as a matter of fact, did you learn then that Sacco was going to Italy?
MR. KATZMANN. One moment, if your Honor please.
THE COURT. How are you going to get that except by a conversation? If you want to ask him if he had any conversation with him in regard to going to Italy, I will allow you to put that, make that inquiry.
Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Sacco with reference to his going to Italy? You may answer that yes or no. Did you? A. Yes, and I have previous to that day.
Q. Had you talked before that day? Had you talked to him? A. Sacco brought to me that his mother was dead.
Q. You got a letter from him? A. Yes.
Q. And about his mother. Then you saw him on this Sunday and had a conversation with him. Now, May 3d you were out to his house in Stoughton. Do you remember what time you got there? A. In the morning, about ten o'clock, or something like that.
Q. Was Sacco home when you got there? A. Mrs. Sacco was home.
Q. What? Mrs. Sacco was home. Q. Mrs. Sacco was home. A. Sacco come home at dinner. I saw him when he came home to dinner.
Q. Now, tell us how long you stayed there, meaning for this first question, did you stay there that afternoon, in the evening or not? A. Yes, I stayed there in the afternoon, in the evening, and I spent the night with him.
Q. Now, May 4th? A. In the Sacco house, too.
Q. Did Sacco go away to work on May 4th or was he around the house that day? A. No, he went to Boston on May 4th.
Q. All right. What time did he get home? A. In the afternoon but I do not remember at what time, near supper time.
Q. About what time did he get home? A. I should say five or six o'clock, something like that.
Q. Having in mind the supper hour, six o'clock, was it before or after supper? A. Oh, before. We eat our supper together.
Q. When he came home from Boston did any one come with him, or did he come alone? A. He come with Orcciani.
Q. With Orcciani. How did they come to Sacco's house? Did they walk or did they come in some conveyance? A. They come,--I learned after, because I was in the kitchen.
Q. You were in the kitchen when they came? A. Yes.
Q. But you learned afterward they came in the motorcycle?
MR. KATZMANN. One moment, pardon me.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. He has already said that. Give us the answer. I did not want to lead him too--
[The answer is read]
Q. Did you see a motorcycle there that evening? A. No.
Q. Do you know how he came there, how Sacco came there? A. Yes, because they speak of the motorcycle, and Orcciani got some dress like a motorcycle.
Q. Dress? A. Dress.
Q. Dress some clothes, you mean? A. Clothes, yes.
Q. You mean clothes that they use when they ride? A. I mean clothes that the men who go on a motorcycle, something like that, use, yellow dress, yellow pants.
Q. All right. Now, how long did Orcciani stay there? A. He go away in the evening.
Q. All right. Was there anything said there? Did you have a conversation there with Orcciani and with Sacco with reference to what Sacco was going to do and what you were going to do the next day, May 5th? You may answer that yes or no. A. Yes.
Q. And was there any time fixed that you were to see Sacco or Orcciani? A. Yes.
Q. What time? A. On the afternoon of the other day, May 5th.
Q. On the afternoon of May 5th? A. Yes.
Q. Now, was Sacco home in the morning, May 5th, or do you remember? A. Yes.
Q. Were you about there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was the matter--was it determined what you were going to do on the afternoon of May 5th, or whatever day it was, at the time? was it determined what you were going to do? A. Yes, it was determined what we were going to do when Orcciani would be ready.
Q. Now, tell me all that took place there on May 4th between you and Orcciani and Sacco? A. Orcciani stayed with us to supper and he say he will come back to-morrow.
MR. KATZMANN. One moment. One moment.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. That gets into conversation. I do not know how I can have it intelligent without it. But, all right, we will pass by May 4th.
Q. May 5th, what did you do? A. May 5th?
A. We stay until the evening, around the Sacco house, around the Sacco house, and then we go.
THE COURT. I did not quite get that, on May 5th.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. We stayed around the Sacco house.
THE COURT. "Stayed," that is the word 1 did not get.
Q. What did you do during the day, if anything?
A. We do many things. Split some wood, cut some wood, we go in the forest and cut some wood for the fire, and we speak about many things, and he was busy too, put some stuff in order.
MR. KATZMANN. One moment.
Q. You know you can't tell us anything you said. You told us one thing you did. You split some wood. Did you see Mr. Sacco doing anything?
A. Oh, yes, Mrs. Sacco was preparing the stuff, clothes and everything like that for to be ready to go away.
Q. I don't know that they can bear you. I am getting close to you. What was she doing?
A. She was preparing the stuff for the trip,
Q. For what trip?
A. To put in order to go to Italy.
Q. What did you see her doing?
A. I saw her put the stuff in the trunk from the commode.
Q. Did any one there give you anything?
A. Yes, before we go away I take the three gun shells.
Q. Three gun shells? A. Yes.
Q. You call them. And how long are they? You make and show us on your pencil how long they are? A. Something like that [indicating.]
THE COURT. Now, put in the record the exact length.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Two inches and a half.
THE COURT. Have counsel agreed?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. As a guess at it.
Q. How many, you say? A. I Should say something long like this
Q. I mean, how many shells were they? A. Three.
Q. Three. How come you to get those? Where were they got?
A. They got in top of the stage in the kitchen.
Q. On the side of the kitchen? A. You know in the kitchen there is some piece of wood like this indicating.
Q. A shelf, we will call it? A. Yes, and it was on top of there.
Q. How come she to give them to you? How come you to get them?
A. Because I say, "I will bring to my friends in Plymouth." My friends, I know they go to hunt in the winter time.
Q. Go to shoot in the winter time? A. Yes.
Q. What did you do with those shells? A. I put in my pocket. I want to give to him when I reach Plymouth.
Q. Now, speaking back a few months. When you were arrested, you had a revolver on you? A. Yes.
Q. Where did you carry that revolver? What part of your clothes did you carry it in? A. I carried on my back pocket, pants back pocket, but I don't remember if in right or left side.
Q. When, about when, did you get that revolver? A. It was two or three months.
Q. And what was the occasion of your getting that revolver? A. I went to Falzini's house one day.
Q. Now, you are going to tell us about a conversation. I might as well stop you. You can’t. But did you get a revolver at the Falzini house? A. Yes.
Q. Why did you get the revolver? A. I got the revolver because it was a very bad time, and I like to have a revolver for self-defense.
Q. How much money did you use to carry around with you? A. When I went to Boston for fish, I can carrry eighty, one hundred dollars, one hundred and twenty dollars.
Q. What do you mean by "It was a bad time"? A. Bad time, I mean it was many crimes, many holdups, many robberies.
Q. Many holdups? A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember what you paid for the revolver? A. I think $5.
Q. Now, I will bring you back to May 5th. On the afternoon of May 5th, what happened at Sacco's house? Perhaps it will be plainer to you; did any one come there? A. Yes.
Q. Who came? A. Orcciani came there with Mike Boda.
Q. How did they come? A. I should say they came in a motorcycle.
Q. Well, you saw the motorcycle? A. Yes, after a little while, after they arrived.
Q. How long did they stay there? A. I should say two hours, an hour or a half, two hours.
Q. About what time did they leave the house? A. They leave the house, I do not know, because I leave the house before them.
Q. What time did you leave the house? A. About seven o'clock, something like that.
Q. Did you leave alone, or some one with you? A. With Sacco, me and Sacco leave the house.
Q. Where did you and Sacco go? A. We went to Bridgewater.
Q. Where did you go first when you left Stoughton, picking it up. How did you get out of Stoughton? A. We got out in Brockton.
Q. Now, wait a minute. How did you go from Stoughton to Brockton? Did you walk, or go in an aeroplane, or something else? A. In the electric car.
Q. All right. You and Sacco took the electric cars from Stoughton, and you went to Brockton. When you got to Brockton and got out of the electric car, what did you do? A. We looked for a car to Bridgewater.
Q. You looked for a car to Bridgewater? A. We wait in the street, we wait a little while. Then we asked,--I should say to a conductor of the car who was on the corner of Main Street and another street where the town hall is--I do not know the name of the street--when the car for Bridgewater came, and he say we are to wait one quarter, fifteen minutes; then we went toward, from Main Street where we ask him, we went towards the town hall and there before we reached the town hall there is an Italian fruit store and cigar store. We buy Italian cigars. When we arrived at the fruit store there is a lunch room and we went there and we drink a cup of coffee in the lunch room, and I take a pencil and piece of paper and I started to write.
Q. You write? A. Yes, I started to write.
Q. And what did you write? A. I write public invitations for a meeting next Sunday.
Q. You write a public invitation for a meeting next Sunday? And where was that meeting to be held? A. It was to be held in one hall there in Brockton, but I do not know the name and the place of the hall. Sacco know that and somebody else.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Mr. Katzmann, may I ask if you have that paper that he wrote?
MR. KATZMANN. Yes, we did have it, Mr. McAnarney, and we have been searching for it. But I can give you a copy of it. I took it. I will show you the copy. As far as I know, they can't find it, but I have a copy here, if that will help you.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. You know it is substantially accurate?
MR. KATZMANN. I know it is absolutely accurate, because I read it myself.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. All right.
MR. KATZMANN. If they are of any value to you [handing paper to Mr. McAnarney].
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Will your Honor pardon me one moment, please?
THE COURT. Certainly.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. This is a translation?
MR. KATZMANN. No. It is in English.
Q. Was that in English or an Italian? A. In Italian.
Q. Are you sure? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What kind of paper was it written on? A. I cannot remember exactly. Some kind of paper letter, something like that, some kind of paper letters.
Q. Some kind of papers? A. Paper for letters.
Q. Oh, letter paper, ordinary letter paper. Where did you get the paper? A. I have it in my pocket.
Q. I see. You write that in the coffee house? A. Yes.
Q. After you write that, what did you do with it? A. I read it to Nick.
Q. You read it to Nick? A. And it was found a little too long.
Q. Nick thought it was too long? A. Yes, and I say, "Well"--
MR. KATZMANN. One moment, please.
Q. After whatever Nick did say, and after you said back to him what you did, did you do anything with the paper? A. Yes.
Q. What? A. When we take a car to Bridgewater I condense that. I fixed him up to leave the same sense and with many words, with less words.
Q. With less words? A. Yes, strike out all the words that I think it was superfluous. I condensed that.
Q. You made it shorter? A. Yes.
Q. You did that on the electric car while you were going to West Bridgewater or to Bridgewater? A. Yes.
Q. When you sty you "condensed" it, did you cut words out of the original paper or did you write it over again different? A. I wrote over again.
Q. All right. Well, then, the first paper, you destroyed that, did you? A. I should say yes.
Q. You should say--do you remember what you did with the first paper? A. I do not know if I break it, if I make,--sometimes you make a ball out of it.
Q. As a matter of fact, do you know what you did with the first paper you wrote? A. I do not remember, but I am sure I destroyed it, because it is useless.
Q. Useless. What did you do with the one you wrote again? A. I give it to Nick, to Sacco.
Q. What was he to do with it? A. He was giving it to the printer in Brockton, or in Boston, for next Saturday and to have it printed and give it to the population.
Q. You mean the printer, he was to take it to the printer? A. Yes.
Q. And have it printed? A. Yes.
Q. Was there any arrangement made about a hall? A. Yes, the hall, I know that the hall was already rented.
Q. Hired. The hall was hired? A. Yes.
Q. What hall, please? A. I do not know the name of the hall, and I do not know the place.
Q. But you say the hall had been hired? A. Yes.
Q. From whom did you get that information? A. Nick told me that that night, because he wrote me the Saturday before about that Sunday.
Q. What is that? A. Nick asked to me, brought to me the weeks before to go and speak in Brockton, you know.
Q. Well then, I take it it was arranged you were to speak in Brockton? A. Yes.
Q. The next Sunday? A. Yes.
Q. That would be May 9th. At what hour in the day were you to speak there? A. I do not remember what hour we fixed, because I do not write in that invitation, I do not write the hour nor the street nor the place. I left to him or to somebody else that fixed the place and everything, because I do not know that.
Q. You have given that paper to Nick, as you say, so as to have that printed. Now, I take it from what you said you got aboard a car going to West Bridgewater? A. Yes.
Q. Where did you take that car. A. In Main Street, Brockton.
Q. Main Street, Brockton? A. Yes.
Q. About what time, if you have it in mind, did you leave Brockton? In other words, what time did you take car? A. I should say quarter to eight or eight o'clock.
Q. And you rode on,-- where were you going to get off? A. In the Square, down in West Bridgewater, Elm Square.
Q. Was it arranged before you left home, Sacco's home, between you and Orcciani, where you were to get off that car? A. Yes.
Q. And it was at Elm Square? A. Yes.
Q. And were you to see any one there at Elm Square? A. No, we don't see nobody when we come down.
Q. You did not see, but were you to see ay none or meet any one at Elm Square? A. Yes.
Q. Who were you to meet there? A. Boda and Orcciani.
Q. What was the purpose of Boda and Orcciani going there? A. Go there to take the automobile.
Q. What automobile?
MR. KATZMANN. Boda to take an automobile?
Q. To take an automobile? A. Boda's automobile.
Q. And where was Boda's automobile? A. I can't tell you exactly where it was. They say to us to wait f or them.
Q. You can't tell us exactly where it was? A. No.
Q. They told you to wait for them? A. They say to us to come down in Elm Square, and they say, "If we are there you will see us. If we will not be there we will call after. You wait there, you see."
Q. What time do you think you got to Elm Square? A. I couldn't tell you. I have no watch.
Q. How do you know you had got to Elm Square? How did you know where to get off? A. It was explained to us to come down when we take the car, to come down on the first square we see, that it was there. I do not know if Sacco asked somebody, but I remember that I was explained that so you cannot mistake. You take a car from Brockton towards Bridgewater, first square you see. When you see the street become large and you see the light there, you come down there, and there is Elm Square.
Q. That is Elm Square. You do not know whether you spoke. you said "on the car." You meant on the car?
Q. You did not, I take it?
A. I did not.
Q. You got off this place, Elm Square. Was there any sign there or anything you could see to read?
A. Well, I saw the sign.
Q. Do you remember now how big or small that sign was?
A. I do not remember exactly. It looked to me the sign I saw is a pole with two planks like in the two corner, and two plank under, if I remember, but I can't tell sure.
Q. Now, when you and Sacco got out there, did you see any one?
A. No, we don't see nobody when we got there.
Q. What did you do after you got out of the car there?
A. We wait a little while, four or five minutes.
Q. After the five minutes, what did you do?
A. We start to walk and to follow the car towards Bridgewater.
THE COURT. "Started to walk"?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. "And follow the car towards Bridgewater."
Q. How far did you walk in that direction? A. I could not say. Ten or fifteen minutes we walk, something like that.
Q. What did you do then?
A. Then we come back towards the square. We don't meet nobody on the square, when we started walk toward Brockton.
Q. The other way?
Q. When you started to walk toward Brockton, what, if anything, did you see there after you walked? A. After a little while we saw the motorcycle light of the street.
Q. On the street. A. After a little while we saw the light of the motorcycle or something that, in the street, a little far from us, toward Brockton.
Q. What did you do when you saw that? A. We walked toward it and we approached the man and we saw that it was Orcciani. A. Yes.
Q. That it was Orcciani? A. Yes.
Q. And where was he with reference to the motorcycle? A. He was on the back side of the motorcycle, after the pedals, and something like that, see.
Q. All right. Now, did you then see Boda? A. I don't see Boda at that time.
Q. Where was the motorcycle with reference to a house? A. I cannot judge the farness of the house from the street. I know it was,-- the house was a little in, a little far to the street, and the motorcycle was in the side of the street, in the same side of the house. Suppose this is the street and this is your house [indicating], and the motorcycle was in this side of the street, in the same side of the house.
Q. Then you meant the motorcycle was on the same side of the street as the house?
Q. And was the motorcycle facing towards Bridgewater, or towards Brockton, do you remember? A. I can't tell sure, but it was facing toward Brockton.
Q. You stepped up, anyway, and you spoke to Orcciani? A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you see any one at this house near which the motorcycle was standing? Did you see any one there? A. After a little while we seen a woman coming to the house.
Q. Where did she come from? A. She come toward Brockton.
Q. She come toward Brockton? Well,-- A. She come from toward Brockton.
Q. She came from toward Brockton? A. Yes.
Q. Where did she go? A. She go in the house in front of the motorcycle.
Q. Then you saw a woman come from toward Brockton-- A. Yes.
Q. --direction, and go into the house? A. Yes.
Q. Where the motorcycle was standing in front? A. Yes.
Q. Is that right? A. Yes.
Q. Did you see a women go out of that house before that? A. I did not see.
Q. You did not see? A. No.
Q. Now, when you came up to Orcciani you had a talk with him?
Q. Boda was not in sight then? A. No, I don't see Boda at that time.
Q. All right. After you talked with Orcciani beside the motorcycle, what did you and Sacco do? A. We stayed and entertained ourselves to talk with Orcciani.
Q. Anything else? A. Yes, and after a little while Boda come on the street.
Q. Where did he come from? A. From the house.
Q. The house near the motorcycle? A. Yes.
Q. Did you hear any talk between Boda and any one before he came out? A. No, I don't hear no talk.
Q. Did Boda have talk with you or Nick Orcciani in your presence after he came out? A. Yes.
Q. What did Boda say?
MR. KATZMANN. One moment.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. I submit it.
THE COURT. Well, that may meet exactly the--
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. It seems to me that it competent on the Government's case without any question.
THE COURT. I am going to admit it on one theory, because there is some conversation already gone in.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Yes.
THE COURT. We have had one side of the--
MR. JEREMIAH MCANARNEY. I take it your Honor admits that question?
THE COURT. You may.
Q. What did Boda say? A. He say that we cannot take the automobile because Mr. Johnson say that he cannot take it without having a new number.
Q. No number? A. New number; that Boda must have a new number for to take the automobile, something like that, simply in reference to the number.
Q. All right, then. What else did Boda say, if anything? A. Then he say, "Well, I and Orcciani, we,--I and Orcciani go with the machine and you take a car and you go home. We will look for a -new number. When I am ready I will tell you and we will come here some other day. We will come to take the automobile."
Q. What were you going to get the automobile for? A. We were going to take the automobile for to carry books and newspapers.
Q. I did not get the first part of your answer. I repeat the question. What were you going to get the automobile for? A. For to take out literature, books and newspapers, from the house and the homes.
Q. What house and homes did you want to take the books and literature from? A. From any house and from any house in five or six places, five or six towns. Three, five or six people have plenty of literature, and we want, we intend to take that out and put that in the proper place.
Q. What do you mean by a "proper place”? A. By a proper place I mean in a place not subject to policemen go in and call for, see the literature, see the papers, see the books, as in that time they went through in the house of many men who were active in the Radical movement and Socialist and labor movement, and to there and take letters and take books and take newspapers, and put men in jail and deported many.
MR. KATZMANN. I ask it be stricken out.
THE WITNESS. I say that in that time--
MR. KATZMANN. Wait one moment.
THE WITNESS. And deported many, many, many have been misused in jail and so on.
Q. Where were you going that night if you could have got the automobile? A. I intended to go to Plymouth and speak to some of my friends of Plymouth who is owner of the house.
Q. And do what? A. And if they are willing to receive such literature and newspapers in his house.
Q. Now, where were you going to take these papers and literature you were going to take from these houses? What were you going to do with them? Suppose you had got the automobile that night and you had gone down to Plymouth to these houses! What were you going to do with the papers you pick up here? A. Before to pick the paper, I want to find the place and ask if my friend in Plymouth, if he was willing that we bring the paper in his house.
Q. I see. You were going to some friend ask him if he would receive the things? A. Yes, if he was willing to receive such papers and such books in his house.
Q. Now, whether or not this going around to get these papers was as a result of what you learned when you went to New York? A. Yes. What we read in newspapers, too.
Q. Well, you did not get the automobile that night? A. No, we were arrested that night.
Q. You were arrested. Now, after Boda or Orcciani, whichever one it was that spoke to you, they went away. I am leading you. What did they do or what did you do? A. I and Sacco, we walk a little bit for not standing and waiting for the car, and when the car reached us we took the can, and we come back to Brockton.
Q. How far did you walk before you took a car? A. Not very much, but something like a mile, maybe little less them a mile.
Q. Do you remember whether you or Sacco spoke to any one before you took the car? A. Yes, we saw a lady.
Q. Did either of you speak to her? A. Yes, we asked the lady where the car stop.
Q. You say "we." Was it you or Sacco? A. Me and Sacco. I do not remember if I asked or Sacco asked. I think myself.
Q. One of the two of you? A. I should say I.
Q. What was that conversation, please?
MR. KATZMANN. One moment, if your Honor please.
MP, JEREMIAH McANARNEY. I do not know, but so much has gone in jail, and so on.
in and it is so long since, it was in my mind--this was without looking it up,--that there was in the Government's case--I think there was in the opening, perhaps I am mistaken, either in the opening or in the evidence, that they spoke to a woman,--I think that is in the evidence, if your Honor please, that they spoke to a woman, these two men spoke to a woman before they got aboard the electric car. It is in the case. It may be the opening and not the evidence. My mind is it is' in the evidence.
THE COURT. That is the purpose about the inquiry, that as a result of this conversation they took the car?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Yes.
THE COURT. She directed them where to the take the car?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Yes, Inquired where to take it.
THE COURT. Supposing you ask if they had any conversation with this woman as to where they could take the car. I will allow you to ask that.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. That simplifies it.
Q. Did you have, you or Sacco, have a conversation with a woman with reference to where you would take a car to go to Brockton?
Q. You did. And she told you something?
Q. What did you do?
A. We waited for the car where she told us.
Q. You went to where she told you?
Q. And you waited?
A. And we waited.
Q. Then you got aboard the car, did you?
Q. And took a seat in it. Now, had you been up in West Bridgewater, Elm Square, had you ever been there before?
Q. Were you there on the 14th or the 15th of April?
A. Only on that day, on that 5th of May.
Q. My question is, were you there back in April?
A. No, no, no. I never been in that place before.
Q. Had you at some time before this been in some part of Bridgewater?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long ago?
A. Six years ago. Six years or six years and a half ago.
Q. Six years or six years and a half ago.
A. Six or six and a half ago, something like that.
Q. Did that bring you,--well, where was that?
A. It was Bridgewater, but I do not remember the place. I mean, it was in East Bridgewater, but I do not remember the street.
Q. What was the occasion of your being there?
THE COURT. We will stop here.