MR. HARTZLER: The Government calls Lori Fortier.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Lori Fortier affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Lori Roberta Fortier, F-O-R-T-I-E-R.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Hartzler.
MR. HARTZLER: This is my first time back here, your
Honor, and I had difficulty hearing her. Is the microphone
active there?
THE COURT: It is.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Could you tell us where you presently live.
A. I live in Kingman, Arizona.
Q. And I don't want you to give us a geography lesson, but can
you describe the surroundings and the nearby large cities?
A. It's in the northwest corner of Arizona, approximately a
hundred miles from Vegas.
Q. That's Las Vegas in Nevada?
A. Yes.
Q. So Las Vegas is across the border. Are there any other
state borders nearby?
A. California is close by.
Q. What's the terrain in that area?
A. Desert with some mountains.
Q. Were you born and raised in that area?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And did you graduate from high school in Kingman?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. How many high schools are there in the Kingman area?
A. When I was going to high school, there was one. There are
two now.
Q. What year did you graduate?
A. January of 1990.
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. What is your husband's name?
A. Michael Fortier.
Q. And when did you first meet him?
A. In July of 1987.
Q. While you were still in school?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you date Michael Fortier continuously from the first
time you met him until you got married?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And after you met Mr. Fortier, did you live in the Kingman
area continuously?
A. No. I moved for a short period of time.
Q. Okay. Please describe for us when it was and why it was
you moved from that area.
A. Michael enlisted in the Army in 1988. And after I
graduated high school, I moved to Kansas to be with Michael
because he was stationed in Fort Riley. In approximately March
of 1990.
Q. And how long did you and he stay there?
A. For about a little over a year.
Q. What happened then?
A. We moved back to Kingman, Arizona.
Q. Was he discharged at that time?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Honorably?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any children?
A. Yes, I do. I have two children.
Q. What are their names and ages?
A. Kayla is four and Michael is one.
Q. And do they live with you?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. Does your husband live you with now?
A. No, he does not.
Q. Where is he?
A. He is currently in federal custody.
Q. Why is that?
A. He pled guilty and he's awaiting sentencing.
Q. And the charges that he pled guilty, are they related to
this case?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. How long has it been since he's been in custody?
A. Since August 10 of 1995.
Q. So about 20 months?
A. Yeah.
Q. And do you know when he will be sentenced?
A. I'm not really sure.
Q. Do you know Timothy McVeigh?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And approximately how long have you known Timothy McVeigh?
A. Approximately eight years.
Q. Do you recall when you first met him?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Can you describe for us the circumstances, where you were
when you first met him?
A. I was in Kingman, and Michael had just enlisted into the
Army, and he came home for Thanksgiving leave in 1988. And Tim
was also in the military with Michael, and he came home with
Michael.
Q. Were they -- the two men stationed at the same base?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. And where was that?
A. Fort Riley, Kansas.
Q. Do you know how they came to know each other?
A. They went to basic training together, and they were -- they
shared the same barracks and the same room.
Q. Did you have a conversation with Mr. McVeigh during this
Thanksgiving leave visit when he came to Arizona about why he
was there?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Tell us what he said to you.
A. He had drove up with Michael because he wanted to look at
some land outside of Kingman.
Q. Did he describe what land he was looking for?
A. Yes, he did. It was outside the Kingman area, in Seligman,
and he had it outlined on a map that had like possible nuclear
attack zones outlined.
Q. Describe that map for us, please.
A. It was a regular road atlas that had like certain areas
highlighted that wouldn't be like hit if there was a nuclear
attack.
Q. So it reflected the nuclear safe zones?
A. Yes.
Q. And what area was it that he was interested in?
A. Around the Seligman area, which is about an hour outside of
Kingman.
Q. And explain, please, why it was he was interested in that
area.
A. Because he was wanting to purchase land.
Q. That area was in or not in one of the safe zones?
A. It was in one of the safe zones.
Q. Was this a commercially purchased and printed map --
A. Yes.
Q. -- or hand-drawn?
A. It was hand-drawn. The highlighting was hand-drawn, but it
was a commercial-like atlas.
Q. And in what form was the highlighting?
A. It was in like -- it was circles of certain areas.
Q. And the circles represented what?
A. The like areas that would be hit by a nuclear attack.
Q. Did he tell you why he wanted to look at this land in this
safe zone?
A. Because he was thinking about purchasing land around there
because he already had some land, and he wanted to purchase
more.
Q. And did he tell you where the land was that he already had
purchased?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Do you know whether or not McVeigh looked at any of the
land in that area?
A. I had talked to Michael afterwards, and Michael said, yes,
that they did --
MR. JONES: Object, your Honor, as hearsay.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Do you know whether or not or did Mr. McVeigh say to you
whether he looked at the land?
A. Tim never said to me that he looked at the land.
Q. Were you present when he and your husband left to return to
Fort Riley?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And what did he say at that time?
A. He said that they were going to leave early so they could
go look at the land.
Q. After that visit in Thanksgiving of 1988, did you ever see
McVeigh again after that?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you see him before you graduated from high school?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Approximately how many times and in what circumstances did
you see him before you graduated from high school?
A. I saw him approximately three times on occasions that I'd
go up to visit Michael in Kansas.
Q. And what was Michael doing in Kansas at that time?
A. He was still in the Army.
Q. Did you see McVeigh every time you visited Michael in
Kansas?
A. Yes, just about every time.
Q. Had they remained friends during that period of time?
A. Yes, they had.
Q. Was Terry Nichols then a friend of Michael's, if you know?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Had you ever heard of Nichols on any of these trips that
you took to visit your -- to visit Michael in Kansas?
A. No, I had not.
Q. And had Michael spoken to you about Nichols during any of
these trips?
A. No, he had not.
Q. What did you do after you graduated from high school?
A. I stayed in the Kingman area for a couple months, and then
I moved to Kansas.
Q. Where in Kansas?
A. Manhattan, Kansas.
Q. Was Michael still stationed at Fort Riley?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. And was McVeigh?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Were they still friends?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do?
A. I worked like at some odd jobs after I got there.
Q. And how long did you stay in the Manhattan, Kansas/Fort
Riley area?
A. For a little over a year. Until Michael was discharged.
Q. And you left after he was discharged?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. What did the two of you do after the discharge from the
Army?
A. We moved back to Kingman, Arizona.
Q. And during the year or so after you moved back to
Kingman -- this would be following Michael's discharge -- did
you have any contact with McVeigh?
A. No, not during that year.
Q. Do you recall your next contact with McVeigh?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. When was it?
A. In approximately December of '92 or early '93.
Q. What was the contact?
A. Tim sent Michael two books.
Q. Do you recall the books?
A. Yes, I do. One was called Detaxing America and the other
one was called Kingdom of Moltz.
Q. M-O-L-T-Z. T-Z-E, Moltz?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. Did you read either of those?
A. No, I did not.
Q. What was the form of the book?
A. They were photocopied books.
Q. These were not hardback or bound volumes?
A. No, they were not.
Q. Did you have any contact with McVeigh after Michael
received those books?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Can you recall the next contact you had with him?
A. Yes. Tim showed up in approximately March of 1993.
Q. You were living in Kingman at the time?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were you living?
A. We were living in our trailer in Kingman.
Q. And that's the same trailer you lived in until when?
A. Until Michael was taken into custody.
Q. So since -- well, when did you move into the trailer?
A. February 1 of '93.
Q. Approximately a month before McVeigh arrived?
A. Approximately.
Q. And so you remained there until sometime into and after
August of '95?
A. Yes.
Q. How is it that you can recall the approximate date that
McVeigh arrived in Kingman?
A. Because our daughter was born on Valentine's Day of 1993,
and he came approximately a month after that.
Q. And did he explain to you why he was there at that time?
A. He just wanted to visit.
Q. Did he tell you where he had come from?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Tell us what he said.
A. He had came from Michigan. He said he was living with
Terry Nichols.
Q. Had you ever heard of Terry Nichols before that date?
A. Not that I remember.
Q. Do you recall anything unusual that was happening in the
world at this time in March of 1993 when McVeigh arrived in
Kingman and visited you?
A. Yes, I do. Waco had just started.
Q. Would you please explain for us what you mean when you say
Waco?
A. Waco is a city in Texas where the Branch Davidians were
held up for a few months.
Q. Do you recall the period of time?
A. It was like shortly after it started.
Q. And how did it end?
A. The compound burned down.
Q. Was this visit by McVeigh before or after the compound
burnt down?
A. Before.
Q. And how is it that you can recall these two events being
related; that is, Waco being under siege and McVeigh visiting
you in Kingman?
A. Because we sat and watched the news with Tim.
Q. Did he talk about the incident?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Do you recall anything that he said?
A. Yes. That he was very upset about it, and he thought it
was wrong. He thought the government should have just walked
up and knocked instead of raiding the place.
Q. So far as you're aware, did McVeigh have any religious
affiliation?
A. Not that I'm aware of.
Q. Did McVeigh ever disclose to you whether or not he had
visited the compound or the area near Waco, Texas?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said that on two occasions he'd visited Waco, once while
it was still going on and once like after it had burned down.
Q. During this visit in March of 1993 when McVeigh came to
Kingman, where did he stay?
A. He stayed with us in our house.
Q. Did you have room for him?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Why is that?
A. We had a spare room.
Q. And do you recall approximately how long he stayed with
you?
A. A few weeks.
Q. Was your husband employed? Was Michael employed at that
time?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Tell us what his job was and where he was employed.
A. He was working at Kingman TruValue.
Q. That's there in Kingman?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Obviously a hardware store?
A. Yes.
Q. What was his job?
A. I think at that time he was working out back in the yard.
Q. How long approximately had he had that job?
A. Probably not even a month.
Q. Do you recall when McVeigh left, approximately?
A. A couple weeks after he showed up.
Q. And did he tell you where he was going?
A. Yes, he was going back to Michigan.
Q. Did you ever see McVeigh after that visit during the Waco
siege?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Do you recall the next time?
A. Yes. Shortly after Waco burned down.
Q. So this still would have been in the spring of 1993?
A. Yes.
Q. And where was it that you saw McVeigh on this next visit?
A. He came back to Kingman, Arizona.
Q. You were still living in the same place?
A. Yes.
Q. With your husband and daughter?
A. Yes.
Q. And did he stay with you again?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. During -- you indicated that at that time the fire at Waco
had already occurred; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you discuss that incident with McVeigh?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Do you recall anything that he said?
A. Yes. That he was very upset and he thought that the
government had murdered the people.
Q. And did he tell you whether or not he had visited Waco?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did he tell you where he was coming from when he came to
Kingman to visit you that time?
A. I think he like was coming from Michigan, and then he
stopped by Waco on his way to Kingman.
Q. And did he tell you how he had learned of the fire at Waco?
A. Yes, he did. He said he was listening to it on the radio
while he was in Michigan with Terry Nichols.
Q. During this visit -- now, this would have been his third
visit to the Kingman area, right, first being the Thanksgiving,
'88, then the one in March of '93, and now this one after the
Waco incident in '93; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. During this incident, did he tell you why he was there?
A. He was going to move to the Kingman area for a little
while.
Q. And did he in fact move to Kingman?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. How long approximately did he stay in the Kingman area?
A. Until late summer of '93.
Q. So it was for a number of months?
A. Yes.
Q. During those number of months -- that would have been
sometime from spring until late summer of 1993 -- did you on
occasion see McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. Approximately how often did you see McVeigh? And I'm just
going to use the shorthand to say it's through the summer of
'93 that he was there. Approximately how often did you see him
through the summer of '93?
A. Approximately monthly.
Q. For what purposes?
A. Weekly, I'm sorry.
Q. For what purposes did you see him?
A. Just socializing.
Q. And do you recall when he left?
A. He had left, I'd say, in the late part of the summer.
Q. Did he tell you where he was going?
A. Yes, he was going back to Michigan.
Q. To go to what location; do you recall?
A. To live with Terry.
Q. After McVeigh left near the approximately end of the
summer, 1993, did you or Michael have any further contact with
him?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Do you recall the next contact?
A. Yes.
Q. What was it?
A. It was a phone call.
Q. Do you recall whether you received the phone call or your
husband did?
A. Pretty sure Michael did.
Q. And do you recall approximately when that phone call came
in?
A. It came in the fall of '93.
Q. Okay. As a result of that telephone conversation, do you
recall what happened?
A. Yes. Terry Nichols came to Kingman.
Q. Had you ever met him before?
A. No, I had not.
Q. And describe the situation and circumstances in which he
arrived.
A. Tim called to tell us that Terry's son had died; and then
like a short while after that, Terry called us and said he was
like just outside of Kingman and he wanted to know if he could
come by and say hello. So Michael went and met him somewhere
and brought him back to our house, and we talked for
approximately an hour.
Q. Was he alone?
A. No, he was not. He was -- he had his wife and his daughter
with him.
Q. How old was his daughter?
A. Probably -- I don't know. She was an infant still.
Q. As was your daughter?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you recall the conversation in that hour or so?
A. It was just small talk. He was planning on moving to
Vegas, and he was on his way there.
Q. Do you recall your next contact with McVeigh after that
telephone call?
A. Yes.
Q. When was it, approximately?
A. Approximately the first part of February.
Q. What year?
A. '94.
Q. How is it that you recall that approximate date?
A. Because I remember that Tim was not there for the Super
Bowl of 1994.
Q. How do you remember that?
A. Because the Bills were playing in the Super Bowl and that
was his favorite team.
Q. Buffalo Bills?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall who they played?
A. They played the Cowboys.
Q. And you recall watching the game?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. He was not there in that area?
A. No, he was not.
Q. All right. How do you recall when he arrived?
A. Because he was there for our daughter's first birthday
party, which would have been Valentine's Day of 1994.
Q. Do you recall how long he stayed during this visit?
A. Through the next summer.
Q. When he first arrived, where did he stay?
A. He stayed with us approximately for a few weeks, and then
he got his own like house.
Q. When you say he got his own house, what do you mean?
A. He rented a house.
Q. Where did he rent a house?
A. It was a block house out in Golden Valley, about 10 miles
outside of Kingman.
Q. Which direction from Kingman is Golden Valley?
A. South, I believe.
Q. Is that a smaller community, small city? What is that?
A. Yeah, it's like a suburb of Kingman.
Q. And you referred to a block house. What's a block house?
A. Like a concrete-block house.
Q. During the time that McVeigh had rented this block house in
1994, did you ever visit him there?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Do you recall your first visit?
A. The first time we went to visit him, Terry Nichols was
there.
Q. How long had McVeigh lived in that block house,
approximately?
A. A few weeks.
Q. And do you recall what happened when you visited him?
A. Yes, Terry cooked us dinner.
Q. Anything else that you remember?
A. No, not that I remember.
Q. Did you ever see Nichols in that block house again?
A. No, I did not.
Q. And do you know where Nichols' wife and child were then?
A. They were in the Philippines.
Q. Was his wife, by the way, from the Philippines?
A. Yes, she was.
Q. Do you recall her name?
A. Marife.
Q. Do you recall his daughter's name?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Do you have any idea how long Nichols stayed in the Kingman
area?
A. I'd say a couple weeks.
Q. Why do you know that?
A. Because Tim said that they were fighting and Terry moved
out.
Q. During this period of time in the -- I was going to say the
middle of '94, but you said it was sometime beginning before
Valentine's Day of '94 and continuing through a good portion of
the summer; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. So during those months of 1994, when McVeigh was living in
the Kingman area, did he have any employment?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Where did he work?
A. He worked at Kingman TruValue, also.
Q. Same place as your husband was working?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you know what his job -- what McVeigh's job was?
A. He worked out back.
Q. Meaning what?
A. He worked in the lumberyard part of the store.
Q. Okay. What was your husband doing at that time?
A. He was working as a bookkeeper in the office.
Q. How often did you see McVeigh during this period of time,
several months in 1994, when he was living in the Kingman area?
A. Weekly.
Q. And for what occasions did you see him?
A. Pretty much social, just socializing.
Q. Did you consider him to be a friend at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you include him among your friends for various
social activities?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. What kind of things did you do together in which you
included McVeigh?
A. We'd go see Michael's brother and we'd go see my friend
Norma and we'd rent movies, stuff like that.
Q. Do you recall whether McVeigh had a telephone in that block
house?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Do you know how he made phone calls?
A. He'd come to our house and make phone calls.
Q. And did you ever observe him make phone calls during this
period of time?
A. He used the phone pretty regularly.
Q. Did you see whether or not he simply dialed direct,
charging the calls to your phone, or did he have some other
means to make phone calls?
A. He said he had a calling card, and he had memorized the
number.
Q. Did you ever see the card actually?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Do you know what name that card was in?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Did he in any way further describe the card to you?
A. At one time he called on the card to see if it had any
minutes left on it, so I thought it was like a prepaid calling
card. That would be it.
Q. During this period of time, again in 1994, how long did
McVeigh continue to work at Tru -- at Kingman TruValue?
A. Until the end of the summer.
Q. And approximately when did he quit; do you recall?
A. Approximately July.
Q. After he quit his job at Kingman TruValue, did he remain in
the area for any period of time?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Approximately how long after he quit his job did he remain
in the area?
A. About a month.
Q. And did he continue to live at the block house?
A. No. He moved out of the block house, and he stayed with us
for a short period of time after our wedding.
Q. Explain that whole situation, if you would.
A. We were married on July 25 of 1995 (sic). And Tim stayed
at our house during our honeymoon, which was --
Q. How long was your honeymoon?
A. A week.
Q. And why did he stay there?
A. To watch our animals. We have two cats.
Q. Where was your wedding?
A. In Las Vegas.
Q. Did McVeigh attend?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Was he in the wedding party?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. What was his part in the wedding party?
A. He was Michael's best man.
Q. How did that come about?
A. Because at the time Michael's brother, who is in the Army,
also, he was -- he came to town on leave; and Michael didn't
expect him to come to town because he was going to ask his
other brother to be his best man. But he didn't want to ask
Rick because John was there, because he didn't want to hurt
John's feelings.
Q. But McVeigh was clearly a friend of his?
A. Yes, so he asked McVeigh instead.
Q. Do you recall when you got back from your honeymoon, was
McVeigh at your house?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. And how long did he stay in the area after you returned
from your honeymoon?
A. A few days.
Q. Do you recall where he said he was going, if he said he was
going when he departed?
A. He said he was going to Kansas to see Terry.
Q. Again, during this same period of time, between February --
and now you've indicated he left sometime in early August; is
that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any contact with any explosives during that
period of time?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Would you please describe for us the situation in which you
had contact with explosives?
A. One day me and Michael went over to Tim's house in Golden
Valley, and he was in the process of finishing making a pipe
bomb; and he asked us to go up in the mountains and blow it off
with him.
Q. Can you describe that pipe bomb for us?
A. Yes, it was approximately a foot, foot and a half long, a
couple inches in diameter, and it was made up of gun powder.
And when we got there, he was putting the cap on it, on the end
of it.
Q. What color was it, what material was it made of; could you
tell?
A. It was a silver metal pipe.
Q. Did it have a fuse that you saw?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. What color was the fuse?
A. Green, and it had been drilled through one end of it.
Q. And did he say how he had made the pipe bomb?
A. He said he had made it with gun powder.
Q. Was the pipe bomb detonated?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Describe that experience for us.
A. We drove to an area between Golden Valley and Laughlin,
Nevada. It's a mountain range called Union Pass, and we walked
up about a mile, maybe 2 miles into the mountains.
Q. You've been saying "we." Can you tell us who you're
talking about?
A. Me, Michael, and Tim. We walked into the mountains, and
Tim put it under a boulder and set it off.
Q. Did you watch it?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. How far away were you when it detonated?
A. I'm not really sure how far away.
Q. What happened?
A. A big cloud of smoke, and Tim and Mike went up there to
look at what happened to the boulder, and it split in half.
Q. Did McVeigh ever discuss with you any other use of
explosives?
A. Yes, he did. He said that he and Terry had blew off some
jugs like Gatorade bottles while he was living at the farm
there.
Q. I'm sorry, I just didn't hear you. What bottles?
A. Gatorade bottles.
Q. What was the explosive?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. During this same time period, February to August of 1994,
were you involved in any political discussions with McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you describe them for us?
A. We were involved with talking about Waco and various other
things.
Q. What did McVeigh say about Waco?
A. He thought the government had murdered the people in Waco.
Q. Anything else that you recall, any other political
discussions that you recall?
A. Yes, we discussed the United Nations.
Q. What did he say about the United Nations?
A. He thought the United Nations' plan was to take over
America.
Q. And did McVeigh provide you with any materials; did he have
any materials about any of these subject matters?
A. Yes, he did. He had various like books and stuff about
everything that he talked about.
Q. Were there any other political issues that he discussed
with you?
A. Yes. He discussed Randy Weaver and Gordon Kahl.
Q. And who is Gordon Kahl?
A. Somebody that died like on a tax-fraud thing. I'm not
really sure.
Q. What about Randy Weaver?
A. He was held up somewhere in Idaho.
Q. "Held up" meaning what?
A. He was barricaded inside of his house and his family was
killed.
Q. And this involved the federal government in some way?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. Do you know how --
A. Yes. Tim said that they had got him on false weapons
charges and stuff.
Q. That period of time between February and August of 1994 of
course cover the 4th of July?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. Do you recall any 4th of July activities that were planned?
A. Yes, I do. Tim had printed up a pamphlet that he was
planning on handing out on the 4th of July.
Q. How large was this pamphlet?
A. It was a few pages long.
Q. Did you see it?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you read it?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Do you recall any of the subject matters in the pamphlet?
A. Gun control, Waco, he thought that like the money standard
should be back to gold. That's all that I really remember.
Q. And what was he going to do with this pamphlet?
A. He was going to hand it out on the 4th of July.
Q. Where?
A. At the local fireworks.
Q. Did that actually happen?
A. No, it did not.
Q. Do you know why?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Again, during this same period of time in 1994, February to
August, did you ever hear McVeigh advocate violence against the
government?
A. Not really out-and-out violence, but he -- as an example,
he had like a hat that said ATF that had bullet holes through
it, and he also described . . . oh, somebody that -- it was
like a newscaster who like thought it was okay to shoot federal
agents.
Q. So that would have been a use of violence --
A. Yes.
Q. -- well, I'm not sure. Is this a threat of violence
aggressively or defensively?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. After McVeigh left the Kingman area after your honeymoon,
this would have been in the first part of August, 1994; is that
right?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall your next contact with McVeigh?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. When was that?
A. September.
Q. And what was the nature of the contact?
A. We received a letter from Tim.
Q. And was the letter read to you, or did you read it?
A. It was read to me by Michael.
Q. Do you recall what it was -- what it said?
A. Yes, I do. It -- the first thing it said was that Michael
should not tell me about the letter. And the next part, he was
asking -- telling Michael that he wanted to take action against
the government.
Q. Do you recall anything else about the letter?
A. No.
Q. Did you discuss that letter with your husband?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. What did you discuss?
A. What he meant by "take action against the government."
Q. And did either of you respond to the letter?
A. Yes. Michael wrote him back.
Q. Did you see Michael's response?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did your husband tell you what he wrote back?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Can you relate to us what your husband said he wrote back
to McVeigh?
A. He told Tim that he had told me about the letter, and he
asked Tim what he was talking about by saying, "take action
against the government."
Q. He told Tim that he had told you about the letter. Is that
what you said?
A. Yes.
Q. After you had received that letter from McVeigh requesting
or telling you that he was going to take action, did you have
any further contact with him?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Do you recall your next contact?
A. A couple weeks later, Tim showed up.
Q. Showed up where?
A. In Kingman.
Q. And do you recall how long he stayed during this time?
A. A couple days.
Q. Do you recall any conversation you had with him during that
couple days' visit?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And what month would we be in at this point?
A. September.
Q. Who was present during the conversation?
A. Me, Michael, and Tim.
Q. And where did the conversation take place?
A. In our living room.
Q. Do you recall what time of day this conversation took
place?
A. It was evening. The evening.
Q. Where was your daughter?
A. She was either sleeping or with my mother.
Q. As best you can recall, tell us what McVeigh said to you
and what you and Michael said to him in your living room during
this meeting in September of 1994.
A. He told --
MR. JONES: I'm going to object to any testimony about
what Michael said. That's hearsay.
THE COURT: Overruled. I assume it's not for the
truth but what he said.
MR. HARTZLER: Correct.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: Okay. Tim told us that what he meant by
"take action against the government" was to blow up a
federal -- a building, a federal building.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Anything further?
A. No. That's about it on the first occasion.
Q. Did he tell you what building he wanted to blow up?
A. No, he did not specify a location.
Q. Did he tell you when he wanted to take this action?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did he explain to you why he was telling you this?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did he ask for your assistance?
A. Not outright.
Q. Did he appear to be serious?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Do you recall saying anything in response?
A. I think Michael told him that he was crazy.
Q. Did you urge him not to do it?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Why not?
A. Because at that time, I didn't really know if he was
serious or not.
Q. Did you say anything to McVeigh at that time that would
indicate to him that you did not support this action?
A. No.
Q. Why do you think you didn't say anything to him at that
time?
A. Because he had never came to us like with any violent
behavior before, so I wasn't really sure if he was serious
about it.
Q. You said that he stayed with you during this time for a
couple of days?
A. Yes.
Q. And when he left, did he tell you where he was going?
A. He was going back to Kansas.
Q. Do you recall either your or your husband's next contact
with McVeigh after that visit in September of '94?
A. It was a few weeks after that.
Q. What was the nature of the contact?
A. We got a phone call.
Q. Did you talk to McVeigh?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Approximately what month and year was this in?
A. Late -- late September or early October.
Q. And do you recall the day of the week that the phone call
came in?
A. I believe it was either on a Saturday or a Sunday.
Q. After that call, did Michael tell you what he had talked
about with McVeigh?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said that Tim had asked him to get a storage shed
outside of Kingman.
Q. I think you may have indicated; but tell me, approximately
how long after McVeigh had sat in your living room and told you
he wanted to -- his planned action was a bombing, approximately
how long after that did this call come in?
A. A couple weeks.
Q. And did you understand any relationship between these two
events?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you have any understanding of why McVeigh wanted a
storage locker?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did he request that you go look for a storage locker?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you do that?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. With Michael?
A. Yes.
Q. How long after the call did you go out, if you recall?
A. It was either the day after or that same day.
Q. And did you actually visit any storage locker facilities?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Describe that event.
A. We drove out to Golden Valley, and we stopped at one
storage shed area; and Michael went in and -- to check and see
if they had any.
Q. Did you go in?
A. No, I did not.
Q. And did you get it? Did he rent a storage facility there?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Do you know why?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. Do you recall your next contact with McVeigh after that
telephone call and your going out to look for a storage locker?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. When was that?
A. The next day.
Q. And what was the nature of that contact?
A. It was another phone call from Tim.
Q. Did you take that call?
A. I might have took the call. It was either me or Michael.
Q. And where was McVeigh calling from? Do you know?
A. He was calling from Petro, which is a truck stop
approximately 15 miles outside of Kingman.
Q. That would be a local telephone call?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. Do you recall the conversation on the telephone?
A. Yes.
Q. What was it?
A. He had asked if we got the storage shed. And we had told
him no.
Q. And did you see McVeigh after that?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Where did you see him?
A. At our trailer. He showed up approximately a half hour
after that.
Q. Was he alone?
A. No. He was not.
Q. Who was with him?
A. Terry Nichols.
Q. Anybody else?
A. No. Terry had a dog with him, though.
Q. What kind of dog?
A. It was a puppy. I'm not sure what kind it was.
Q. And how did they arrive? What was their mode of
transportation?
A. Tim was driving his Chevy Spectrum, and Terry was driving a
Chevy truck.
Q. Can you describe McVeigh's appearance at that time?
A. Yes. His hair had grown out, and his beard had grown out.
And he looked really scruffy.
Q. What happened when they arrived?
A. Tim came inside and sat down on the couch and told us that
he was mad that we hadn't gotten a storage shed.
Q. And how long -- Did Nichols come into the house?
A. He came in the house briefly to get water that he put like
in some water jugs.
Q. And how long did they remain at your house for this visit?
A. Maybe 15, 20 minutes.
Q. Did they say where they were going?
A. Yes. They were planning on going to a campsite outside of
Kingman.
Q. Now, it's your recollection that your husband was there at
this time?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And the campsite was what campsite?
A. It was an area that Terry had found outside of Kingman. It
wasn't like a chain campsite or anything; it was just an area
in the desert.
Q. It wasn't an official campsite?
A. No, not at all.
Q. Did they say anything to Michael prior to their departure
that you overheard?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Who spoke?
A. Tim did.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said that he wanted Michael to meet him outside Kingman
at the campsite later that night.
Q. This was during the afternoon, you said, that they met,
that they arrived?
A. Yeah, approximately around 4:00.
Q. And do you recall what you did that evening?
A. Yes, I do. We went to -- me and Michael went to my
parents' house, and we borrowed my dad's truck; and Michael
went out to see Tim and Terry.
Q. Why did you borrow your father's truck?
A. To go see -- so Michael could go see Tim and Terry.
Q. But why didn't he just drive your car?
A. Because it was a dirt road and we didn't want to take the
car out there.
Q. Did you go with him?
A. No, I did not.
Q. About how long was Michael gone?
A. An hour or two.
Q. And then what happened?
A. Michael came back to my mom's house, and he called me from
there; and I went to pick him up and bring him back over to our
house.
Q. Did he tell you what he had done?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What did he say?
MR. JONES: Objection. That's hearsay.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. As a result of that conversation, did you have any further
contact -- I'll start again.
Did you have any further contact after that evening
with McVeigh?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. I neglected to ask you: You said they arrived in McVeigh's
car, which you described as a Spectrum, and in Nichols' truck;
is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. When they left, did they leave in both of those vehicles?
A. No, they did not.
Q. Tell us what they left in and what happened otherwise.
A. They left in Terry's truck, and Tim pulled his car inside
of our yard and left it there.
Q. Did you notice anything about that car?
A. Yes. It was loaded down. The back seat had a bunch of
stuff inside of it that was covered with blankets.
Q. And did you know what was in the car at that time?
A. No, I did not.
Q. When was the next time that you saw either McVeigh or
Nichols?
A. The next day.
Q. Describe that event.
A. I was doing dishes inside the house early the next morning,
and I seen someone walking up to Tim's car; so I ran outside.
And it was Tim. He was dressed differently than I had ever
seen him dressed before, though.
Q. Describe how he was dressed.
A. He was dressed like in a Harley shirt, and he had a bandana
around his head; and he looked like a biker. His hair was
grown out, and he had a scruffy beard.
Q. And how long did he remain in that area?
A. He walked to the car, opened the car, and then he got back
with Terry and they left.
Q. So the car remained, but he left with Nichols?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you speak with him then?
A. Just briefly.
Q. Where was Michael at this time?
A. He was at work.
Q. How long did the car remain outside your house after that?
A. Until a couple hours later.
Q. What happened then?
A. Terry and Tim pulled up, and Tim got in the car and left.
Q. Did you have any conversation with him?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you see McVeigh or Nichols after that?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Where was that?
A. At our house later that night.
Q. Describe that incident.
A. They came to our house, and Tim asked Mike to go with him
to a storage shed that he had got.
Q. So you overheard a portion of the conversation?
A. Yes.
Q. And did Michael go with him?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Do you know how he got there or how he left?
A. I believe he left with Tim in Tim's car.
Q. He didn't drive his car?
A. No.
Q. What vehicles did you see there?
A. I think all I saw was Tim's car.
Q. And how long, approximately, was Michael gone?
A. Approximately 30 minutes.
Q. When he returned, did he tell you what he had done?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And after that evening, did you have further contact with
McVeigh?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Was it during this same period of time when he was in the
Kingman area?
A. Yes.
Q. Please describe for us your next contact with McVeigh.
A. About a day or so later, Tim came to our house; and he
stayed with us.
Q. Did he say where Nichols was?
A. Yes. He said that Terry had went to Las Vegas to see his
son, Josh.
Q. You understood his son, Josh, lived in Las Vegas?
A. Yes.
Q. And did Josh live there with someone else?
A. Yes. His mother.
Q. Very well. And when McVeigh arrived at your house, where
was he staying?
A. Tim was staying with us.
Q. For how long, approximately, did he stay with you?
A. Approximately five days.
Q. Same place, the same spare room --
A. Yes.
Q. -- that you've described before?
And did you have a conversation with McVeigh during
this visit about the bombing plans that he had previously
disclosed to you?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall that discussion?
A. Yes.
Q. Who else was present?
A. Me and Michael and Tim.
Q. And where did the discussion take place?
A. In our living room.
Q. What time of day, if you recall?
A. It was the evening.
Q. As best you recall now, tell us what you remember McVeigh
saying and what you remember you or Michael saying to him.
A. Tim specified that the building he was planning on bombing
was the Oklahoma City building. And he went into detail. He
diagrammed what he was planning on doing.
Q. What do you mean he diagrammed it?
A. He diagrammed like circles inside of what he was -- he said
he was going to rent a truck; and he diagrammed circles inside
of a box that was supposed to re -- like resemble the box of a
truck.
Q. What were the circles to represent?
A. Barrels.
Q. Of what?
A. He was thinking about using racing fuel and ammonium
nitrate.
Q. Anything else?
A. Yes, he was going to put -- what do you -- fuse, like
inside the barrels.
Q. Did he describe any other explosives that you would use in
this device?
A. Yes, he did. He described the sausage things that they had
stolen from the quarry.
Q. What do you mean "they had stolen from the quarry"?
A. He told us how Tim and -- he and Terry had robbed a quarry
outside of Kansas.
Q. When did he tell you that?
A. That night.
Q. What did he say about the robbery of a quarry?
A. He said that him and Terry broke into a mining quarry one
night while it was raining, and they drilled a lock on a
building and they stole the explosives.
Q. Did he tell you where the quarry was that they broke into?
A. Somewhere in Kansas.
Q. And did they tell you how they drilled the lock at the
quarry?
A. With a drill. That's all that I know.
Q. Okay. You said that he also actually drew a diagram of a
truck?
A. Yes.
Q. The box -- what part of the truck was drawn? I'm sorry.
A. There was just a box, and then he filled the box in with
circles that was representing barrels.
Q. And I think I broke you off where you were talking about
some kind of sausage explosive that had been stolen from the
quarry.
A. Yes. That was one of the things that was stolen; and he
was going to like fuse into the sausage that he would put
inside the barrels that contained racing fuel and ammonium
nitrate.
Q. I think you said he told you he was going to bomb a
building in Oklahoma City; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he describe the building any further?
A. Yes, he did. He said it was a U-shaped building that had a
glass front.
Q. And did he describe what type of building it was?
A. Yes. A federal building.
Q. Did he specify a particular building or use a particular
name?
A. No. He just said "the federal building."
Q. But he definitely named the city?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he explain to you why he had selected a federal
building in Oklahoma City?
A. He said it was an easy target and that it was a building
that housed some of the people that were in the Waco raid.
Q. Did he give you any further description of the nature or
the type of explosive device he was planning to use?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What did he say?
A. He used the term "anhydrous hydrazine" once.
Q. How is that you can remember that term?
A. Just because it was a strange term.
Q. Any other reason?
A. Yes. Because he had looked the term up in our dictionary.
Q. Was that that evening?
A. No. I think that was the next day, when I was alone with
Tim and Michael was at work.
Q. And did he describe how he was going to detonate this
device in the truck?
A. Yes. He did.
Q. What did he --
A. He wasn't sure whether he was going to drill holes into the
cab of the truck, or if the truck had windows, he was going to
like just put them through the windows.
Q. Put what through the windows?
A. The fuse. There would be two separate fuses.
Q. Did he explain to you in any way how the explosion would
work?
A. Yes. He used the term "shape charge."
Q. Were you familiar with that term?
A. No, I was not.
Q. Did he describe what "shape charge" meant?
A. Yes, he did. By drawing the barrels in the truck, he
formed them in a triangle shape with the biggest part of the
triangle would be facing the building to get the most --
Q. What do you mean "the biggest"? The flat of the triangle?
A. Yes.
Q. Which direction would the point of the triangle be pointed
toward?
A. Away from the building.
Q. Okay. So the flat or the bottom part of the triangle would
be facing?
A. The building.
Q. And what did he describe the purpose of that to be?
A. That it would get the most impact that way.
Q. And did he tell you how he was going to manufacture this
device?
A. Yes, he did. He said that he and Terry would do it
together; that Terry would mix the bomb.
Q. Did he indicate to you whether or not he had any materials
that would assist him in manufacturing this device?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said that he had went to a racetrack and he had obtained
racing fuel.
Q. Did he indicate, or did he have any materials or literature
to assist him?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What did he have?
A. He had a book that had the different detonation ratios, I
guess you'd call it, of different types of explosives.
Q. Did you see that book?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you see in the book?
A. It was a light-blue, hardback book.
Q. Do you know the title of the book?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Were there any other discussions that you recall that
evening --
A. Yes.
Q. -- about the bombing or the bomb plan?
A. Yes.
Q. What else do you recall?
A. He discussed robbing someone that he knew named Bob.
Q. Had you previously heard of this person?
A. Yes, I had.
Q. Do you recall when you had previously heard of this person?
A. One of the summers before.
Q. And you knew the person only by the name Bob?
A. I knew him by Bob in Arkansas. Tim had previously lived
with him, and they had left on bad terms.
Q. And what was the man's employment or occupation?
A. He was a gun dealer that went to gun shows.
Q. Did McVeigh explain to you why he was going to rob this
person?
A. He used the term "fund-raiser."
Q. Tell us what he said about this planned robbery.
A. That he wasn't sure if he wanted to go with -- he was
planning on him and Terry robbing Bob; but he wasn't sure if he
wanted to go with Terry or not, because he was afraid that Bob
would recognize him.
Q. Did he explain to you why Bob had been the selected victim
for this robbery?
A. Because he had a lot of weapons, and him and Tim were on
bad terms.
Q. I think you described this meeting and this visit as having
occurred in early October. Am I correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And I believe you said that the call that you and your
husband received prior to going to look for a storage locker
was on a weekend --
A. Yes.
Q. -- you said it was Saturday or Sunday and that McVeigh
arrived with Nichols a few days after that call.
A. Yes.
Q. And then a few days after that, McVeigh came and stayed in
your house; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall whether or not he stayed in the Kingman area
through the following weekend? That would be the second
weekend in October.
A. Yes, he did.
Q. How do you know that?
A. Because Tim did a gun show in the Kingman area, and I
bought a gun at the gun show. And I remember Tim being there
and having a table.
Q. When you said, "Tim did a gun show," what do you mean?
A. He had a table at a gun show. And he sold like various
things.
Q. What kind of gun did you buy?
A. A Mini-14.
Q. I didn't hear.
A. A Mini-14.
Q. Do you recall how much you spent on the gun?
A. $600.
Q. And are you able -- why is it you're able to recall the
time of that purchase?
A. Because I've reviewed my financial records, and there's a
cash advance on one of my credit cards.
Q. And you provided us with copies?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. I'll come back to that and show you the exhibit.
A. Okay.
Q. During the period of time that McVeigh was staying at your
house, did Michael go to work?
A. What do you mean?
Q. During this period in October, you said he was staying with
you for a few days.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Was that a period of time when Michael was still
employed at Kingman TruValue?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And so he went off to work?
A. Yes.
Q. And McVeigh stayed at your house?
A. Yes.
Q. And you and your daughter, Kayla, were still there.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. During any of the times that you and Kayla were
alone in the house with McVeigh, did you have any further
discussions about his plans to bomb the building in Oklahoma
City?
A. Yes. I did.
Q. Do you recall that discussion?
A. One day Tim like went to the cupboard and got a bunch of
soup cans out, and he started diagraming what he meant by
"shape charge."
Q. What do you mean diagraming?
A. He placed the soup cans on the floor and arranged them in
the same arrangement that he was going to arrange the barrels
in the truck.
Q. What was that arrangement?
A. It was in a triangle shape.
Q. Approximately how many soup cans did he use?
A. Approximately 12.
Q. These were soup cans that you had, just regular
Campbell's-soup-type cans?
A. Yes.
Q. You had them in your cupboard?
A. Yes.
Q. He just went to the cupboard and took them out?
A. Yes.
Q. And placed them -- you were in the kitchen with him?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say about it?
A. That that's what he meant by "shape charge."
Q. Did he explain to you why he was showing you this, making
this demonstration?
A. No, he did not.
Q. I think you also indicated that the day after he had the
discussion with you and Michael in the evening in your living
room, when he explained his plans and talked about the robbery
and talked about the burglary in the quarry, that he also used
your dictionary.
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Was that the same day that he made this demonstration with
these soup cans?
A. I believe it was.
Q. And tell us what you recall about his use of your
dictionary.
A. He looked up the term "anhydrous hydrazine."
Q. Did he tell you what he had found?
A. Yes, he did; but I don't recall what it was.
Q. And anhydrous hydrazine was described to you as what by
McVeigh?
A. A chemical, like in a bombing compound.
Q. Did McVeigh regularly use your phone when he visited you?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And do you recall his using your phone at all during this
period of time --
A. Yes, I do.
Q. -- when he was staying -- did you overhear any of his
conversations, or did he tell you who he was calling?
A. He said he was going to call a chemical company and try to
obtain like anhydrous hydrazine.
Q. Did he actually make a call that you observed?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And do you recall whether he made that call by direct dial,
or charged it to his calling card?
A. I think he direct-dialed. I'm not sure, though.
Q. After that gun show, did McVeigh remain in the Kingman area
for any period of time?
A. No, he did not. He left right after the gun show.
Q. Do you know where he went?
A. I think he was going back to Kansas.
Q. Did you see him again after he left?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. When was the next time that you saw McVeigh?
A. In December.
I'm sorry. In November.
Q. Okay. Do you recall approximately when in November it was?
A. Late November.
Q. Do you recall when you and your husband purchased a
vehicle?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. When was that?
A. We purchased our Jeep on Halloween day.
Q. Of 1994?
A. Yes.
Q. So the return visit, or the next visit by McVeigh: Was
that before, or after you purchased your Jeep?
A. It was before, because we had took Tim to look at the Jeep.
Q. Just a moment ago, you said that the next time you saw him
was in November. And now you said that you purchased your Jeep
on Halloween.
A. I'm sorry. It was October.
Q. And you -- so the next visit with McVeigh, after this
period when he did the gun show and demonstrated the bomb to
you, was what?
A. In late October.
Q. And do you recall that visit?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And for approximately how long did McVeigh stay in the
Kingman area?
A. Just a day or so.
Q. Do you recall why that was such a short visit?
A. Yes, because previously we had got a call from his father,
and he had said that his grandfather died and he was trying to
reach Tim. And when Tim showed up, we told him; and he left to
go see his dad, I think.
Q. So there were two visits that McVeigh made to the Kingman
area and stayed with you during the month of October in 1994.
A. Yes.
Q. The first one was for several days, and the second one was
only for a very short period of time?
A. Yes.
Q. During any of these visits, did McVeigh describe or tell
you that he had obtained components for an explosive device?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Do you recall that discussion?
A. Yes. He said that he had bought racing fuel.
Q. Did he describe how he had purchased racing fuel?
A. Yes, he did. He said he dressed up in a disguise and went
to a racetrack.
Q. Did he describe his disguise?
A. Yes. He said it was like the Harley outfit that he was
wearing before.
Q. That's the one that you had seen him arrive in; is that
right?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was early October? Did I get the right --
A. Yes.
Q. And did he tell you where he had gone to purchase this
racing fuel?
A. At a racetrack.
Q. Do you know where the racetrack was, or did he say where
the racetrack was that he went to?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Did he tell you whether or not he had done this alone?
A. He said that Terry was with him but Terry was afraid to go
in, so Tim did it alone.
Q. Did McVeigh ever describe for you his obtaining any other
components for an explosive device other than what you've
already told us about, including the burglary of the quarry?
A. Yes, he did. He said how he had bought ammonium nitrate
fertilizer.
Q. Explain to us what he had said.
A. That he had went to areas in Kansas and, like hardware
stores, and he had bought large quantities of it. He also said
that Terry had bought some, but he made fun of Terry because
Terry had only bought like a couple bags at a time.
Q. Did he ever tell you where these components were stored?
A. He said he had a storage shed somewhere.
Q. Did you have any contact with McVeigh after you and Michael
purchased your Jeep on Halloween of 1994?
A. Yes.
Q. In the following month?
A. In --
Q. November of '94?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall that contact?
A. Yes. It was a phone call.
Q. Do you recall who answered the phone?
A. I think I answered the phone and took down the phone number
and then gave the phone to Michael.
Q. Describe your conversation with McVeigh during that phone
call.
A. He just asked me to like take down a phone number, and I
did that; and then I gave the phone to Michael.
Q. As a result of that telephone call, what did you do?
A. We went to a pay phone and called him back.
Q. Where was that pay phone?
A. It was at a gas -- beside Exxon gas station.
Q. In Kingman?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you make the call or did Michael make the call?
A. Michael did.
Q. Do you understand -- know why you had gone to a pay phone?
A. Yes, because Michael said that Tim said it was code orange
and he had to call him back from a pay phone.
Q. Had you previously heard from McVeigh what code orange
meant?
A. Yes.
Q. What did it mean?
A. Beware that I might be in trouble.
Q. What did he tell you about the code before? Did he have
some code system?
A. Yes, that green meant everything was going okay. Code
orange was beware, something would happen. And code red is I'm
in serious trouble.
Q. Did you and your husband have any further contact with
McVeigh during 1994 after that incident at the pay phone?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall it?
A. Michael got a couple calls at work from Tim.
Q. When was that?
A. In December.
Q. And after those calls, did you have any further contact
with McVeigh during 1994?
A. Yes, we did. Tim showed up in the area, and we went to see
him at a motel.
Q. Do you recall the name of the motel?
A. Yes, it was the Mojave Motel.
Q. Where is the Mojave Motel?
A. It's right beside the Holiday Inn in Kingman.
Q. Do you recall when it was that you went to meet with
McVeigh at the Mojave Motel?
A. December 14.
Q. How is it that you recall that date?
A. Michael's birthday is December 15, and it was the day
before his birthday.
Q. And tell us what happened when you went to the Mojave Motel
on December 14 of 1994.
A. Tim had asked us to bring some things from home, so --
Q. What things?
A. He asked us to bring tape, wrapping paper, a couple boxes,
and a stock to a Mini-14. And before we went to the motel, we
went to Wal-Mart and got tape and I think wrapping paper, also.
And then we went to the motel and we saw Tim.
Q. Okay. Describe what happened in the motel, when you met
with Tim.
A. When we got there, Tim took the two boxes, and he had like
a -- like a large boxful of blasting caps; and he separated the
blasting caps into the two smaller boxes, and then he asked me
to wrap the boxes in wrapping paper.
Q. And did he tell you why he wanted these blasting caps
wrapped in wrapping paper?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What did he say?
A. That he wanted them in Christmas wrapping paper in case he
was stopped, like anyone wouldn't think it was conspicuous,
because it was the Christmas season.
Q. Did you have any further conversation with McVeigh in that
motel room?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Do you recall what he said?
A. He said that Terry had robbed Bob and that he was upset
that Terry didn't kill Bob.
Q. Anything further?
A. That he wanted Michael to go with him to Kansas, and he was
giving Michael some weapons.
Q. Did he explain why he was giving the weapons to Michael?
A. Yes, he did. He said he wanted to move them quickly
because they had been stolen.
Q. Did Michael agree to go?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Was there any discussion about how they would get to
Kansas?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. Can you relate that to us?
A. Yeah. They finally decided on going in like Tim's car and
then they would return by Michael would rent a car.
Q. Who would return by rental car?
A. Michael.
Q. By himself?
A. Yes.
THE COURT: Is this a recess point?
MR. HARTZLER: Certainly could be. Certainly.
THE COURT: All right, let's take our recess now.
THE COURT: Mr. Hartzler?
MR. HARTZLER: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Do you remember where we were when we -- before we took the
break?
A. Yes.
Q. I believe you were describing a meeting that you and your
husband, Michael, had in a motel room -- I believe it was the
Mojave Motel in Kingman, Arizona, the evening before your
husband's birthday in 1994.
A. Yes.
Q. And so you would have been married at that point for a
matter of three months or thereabouts, unless my mathematics is
off. Is that right?
A. Around that.
Q. You were married in July --
A. We were married in July, yes.
Q. -- '94.
And you said that you had already wrapped the blasting
caps using the Christmas wrapping you brought with you and that
McVeigh had told Michael he wanted Michael to go with him to
Kansas to pick up some firearms that had been stolen, some
weapons that were stolen?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he say where the weapons had been stolen from?
A. Yes, he did. He said they were stolen from Bob in
Arkansas.
Q. Did he describe the robbery in any further detail at that
meeting, if you recall?
A. He said that Terry did it and he went in and he like
blindfolded Bob, I guess; and then he took all the weapons.
Q. I think you already told us about McVeigh's wanting Michael
to go with him, rent a car in Kansas, and return to Arizona
with some of the firearms. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know if that happened?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. Do you recall any further discussion in that motel room
that evening?
A. Not really.
Q. Did you -- what did you and Michael do then?
A. We went home, and then we came back to the motel room the
next day.
Q. Just tell us what happened, what you did.
A. We drove like to the motel room, and Tim and Michael left,
going towards Kansas.
Q. So they left in McVeigh's car?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any further contact with either of them after
that?
A. Yes, in about three days, Tim called before Michael had got
home.
Q. Just tell us what the conversation was that you had with
McVeigh.
A. He called to say that he had been in a wreck; that a car
rear-ended him, and he was upset because the blasting caps were
in the back of the car, so he fled the scene. And he was
calling to ask if Michael was home yet.
Q. And did he tell you where he was calling from?
A. No, not that I recall.
Q. I may have gotten ahead of myself a little bit, or you did.
You said that when you arrived at that motel room, McVeigh had
some items other than the blasting caps; and I also think you
said you guys brought something to the motel room.
A. Yes, we did. We brought a stock from a Mini-14.
Q. What is that?
A. It's a rifle. It's a stock off of a rifle that we gave to
Tim. And in turn, Tim gave us an AR-15 rifle; and he gave us
some gold coins, also, or some copper coins.
Q. Anything further?
A. No.
Q. Was there any discussion about that exchange?
A. Yes. He said it was like good faith; that there was more
like where the guns were; that Mike could have more money by
selling the guns.
Q. After the call that you received from McVeigh in which he
said he had been in a wreck with the blasting caps in the back
of his car, did you have any further contact with McVeigh or
with your husband?
A. Yes. Michael showed up a few hours after that.
Q. Just describe for us what happened.
A. He showed up in his rental car that he had rented. It was
a Crown Victoria; and he came inside. And later that night, we
went out and we took the guns out of the car.
Q. Describe what you did, what you saw.
A. There was approximately 25 guns, different types. There
were rifles and shotguns, and there were a couple pistols; and
we brought them inside, and we put them like away in our
closet.
Q. Did Michael tell you anything about the trip?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Tell us what he told you.
MR. JONES: If the Court please, I object to this as
hearsay.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Do you know the route between Kingman, Arizona, and Kansas?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Have you driven that route before?
A. I've driven to Kansas before, yes.
Q. Are there various ways to get there?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, don't tell us what Michael told you, but do you on
your personal knowledge for any reason know what route he took?
A. Yes. They went through Oklahoma City.
Q. I'm sorry. Pardon me. Based on information other than
what he told you, do you know what route he and McVeigh took to
Kansas? Do you have any reason to know what route they took
other than what Michael told you?
A. At some later time, Tim like mentioned that they had went
through Oklahoma City.
Q. On their way to Kansas?
A. Yes.
Q. And did Tim tell you at that time what they had done in
Oklahoma City?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us what he said.
A. He had drove by Oklahoma City and he showed Michael the
building.
Q. After that trip that your husband took to Kansas and
returned with the guns that you placed -- you and he placed in
a closet in your house, did you have any further contact with
McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us when it was, what the nature of the contact was,
and what happened.
A. Tim showed up in late January.
Q. All right. What year?
A. '95.
Q. Tell us where this occurred and what happened.
A. It occurred in a motel, like right outside of Kingman; and
we went to meet him at the motel. And he said that he was
upset that Michael hadn't sold any of the weapons. He like
expressed that he thought Michael was lazy because he hadn't
sold any of them, and then he told us that Terry Nichols had
found out that he had gaven (sic) the weapons to Michael, and
Terry was upset and he wanted $2,000 for the guns.
Q. Do you recall the name of the motel you went to on that
occasion?
A. I believe it was the Uptown Motel.
Q. And that's just -- that's a different motel in Kingman?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see McVeigh again in the Kingman area after that
meeting in 19 -- early 1995, when he expressed disappointment
that the guns had not been sold?
A. Yes. He stayed in the area for a few months after that.
Q. And approximately when did he leave?
A. The first week of April.
Q. So it was two -- two months, two and a half months,
something like that?
A. Yes.
Q. During that period of time, did McVeigh have a job?
A. No, he did not.
Q. And was your husband working at that time?
A. No, he was not.
Q. Why was that?
A. Because he had a bad back and he was going to the hospital
for back treatment.
Q. Where was he going to go?
A. He was going to Prescott.
Q. Explain Prescott.
A. It's a military hospital; and he was still covered like
under the military, so he was going there to receive help for
his back.
Q. And did he in fact go?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. When?
A. In the first part of March.
Q. Of 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. During this period of time when McVeigh remained in the
Kingman area in early 1995, where did McVeigh live?
A. He lived at a couple various motels at first, and then he
moved in with us.
Q. For how long did he live with you?
A. Approximately a month.
Q. How frequently did you see him before he moved into your
house?
A. Pretty frequent, because me or Michael wasn't working; so
we went out and did things with Tim.
Q. What kind of things?
A. We went four-wheeling in our Jeep and we rented movies and
saw our friends.
Q. And do you know of anything that McVeigh did during this
period of time?
A. Yes, I do. He set up gun shows to sell the weapons, and
him and Michael like went to the first two; and I went with
Michael on the third gun show.
Q. Where were these gun shows?
A. One was in Reno, one was in St. George, and one was in
Tucson.
Q. What state is St. George in?
A. Utah.
Q. Which one was it that you went to?
A. The Tucson gun show.
Q. And who was it that went to the others?
A. Michael and Tim.
Q. What was the purpose of going to these gun shows?
A. To sell the guns.
Q. Why?
A. Because Terry wanted $2,000 now.
Q. Again, during this two-and-a-half-month period that McVeigh
was staying in the Kingman area, did you ever loan him
anything?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Just tell us in your own words what you loaned him, what
the circumstances were, what he said to you, where you were.
A. I was at the house, and he came and asked if he could use
the typewriter; and I let him take it for a couple days.
Q. Go ahead.
A. He brought it back a few days after that; and when he
brought it back, he asked if he could use the iron, because he
had something to laminate.
And I told him no because I didn't want him to ruin
our iron.
So I took what it was that he had and I laminated it
for him.
Q. What was it?
A. It was a false driver's license.
Q. Describe it, please.
A. It was white. It had like a blue strip across the top, and
Tim had put his picture on there. And it was like the false
name of Robert Kling. I believe it was a North Dakota license.
Q. When you say it was a false name of Robert Kling, how is it
you remember that name?
A. Because I looked at it.
Q. Did you discuss that with him at all?
A. Somewhat. Not really.
Q. Do you recall anything in particular about the name Kling
that the two of you discussed?
A. Yes. We made a joke about, like Star Trek and Klingon. It
was something that was from Star Trek, so we made a joke about
the name.
Q. What's the joke?
A. Just that you're a Klingon.
Q. And who are the Klingons?
A. They're somebody in Star Trek.
Q. Did McVeigh explain to you why he needed that driver's
license?
A. No.
Q. You told us that you were afraid he would ruin your iron.
Can you explain that, please.
A. Well, I thought he was going to just try to directly iron
the plastic, and I thought it would ruin the iron; so I did it.
Q. And what do you mean by the plastic?
A. There was a plastic slip that went over the actual license
to laminate it; and I thought that he was going to like put the
iron directly on the plastic, which would ruin the iron.
Q. So how did you put it together?
A. I like put a towel over it, and I ironed it until it fused
together.
Q. Had you seen those -- the form that he used or the
lamination plastic slip previously?
A. Yes, I had. They were on our desk in the house before.
Q. Do you know how they got there?
A. I think Michael got them.
Q. Do you know how Michael got them?
A. He ordered them from the back of a book somewhere that he
found somewhere.
Q. Do you know how long they had been there?
A. No, I don't.
Q. I think when I first asked you about this experience you
had with this driver's license that I said did you loan McVeigh
anything during the two-and-a-half-month period that he stayed
in the Kingman area in early 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Can you recall by any dates or any events in your
life when approximately this occurred that you saw this
driver's license?
A. It was before Kayla's birthday, because Tim moved in with
us right after Kayla's second birthday.
Q. And of course, her birthday is on Valentine's Day, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. So it would have been --
A. He was living in one of the motels at that time.
Q. Now, by this time, I believe you said McVeigh had already
told you what he was going to do in Oklahoma City. Is that
right?
A. Yes.
Q. That occurred back in your meeting, your living room, in
October of '94.
A. Yes.
Q. You told us that he said he was going to get a truck and
build the bomb inside a truck; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And did he explain to you then, back in October -- well,
let me just ask you: What did he say to you regarding how he
was going to get a truck?
A. He said he was going to rent a truck.
Q. And did he explain how he was going to rent the truck, in
what name, or anything of that sort?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did you know that he would use a false name to rent a
truck?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Now, moving you back into February of 1995, when he
presented you with this Robert Kling driver's license for you
to laminate for him, did you understand the purpose of his
having that driver's license?
A. No.
Q. What did you think was his purpose?
A. I thought that he was either trying to obtain credit under
a false name because he didn't have a job, or that he was using
it like to set up tables at gun shows.
Q. And why did you think he might use it to set up tables at
gun shows?
A. Because the weapons were stolen and they were trying to
sell them. I didn't think he'd try to use his real name.
Q. Did you know of any aliases McVeigh had used previously?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Explain what you knew.
A. He had used the name Tim Tuttle frequently. We used to get
his mail from his mail drop for him, and there used to be a lot
of mail for that name.
Q. Could you explain the mail drop for us?
A. There is like a mail room in Kingman where you can buy a
post office box, and he used to have his mail sent there; and
when he was gone, he'd ask like Michael to pick it up for him.
Q. Where was that?
A. The mail drop?
Q. Yes.
A. It was on Stockton Hill by a place I used to work called
the Beach Club.
Q. How close?
A. In the same little strip-mall complex.
Q. And you also said that you thought maybe he was going to
use it -- use this false Kling driver's license to obtain
credit, I think you said.
A. Yes.
Q. Can you explain why you thought that?
A. Because he had previously discussed obtaining credit and
paying credit companies off like in like credit so he could
scam money.
Q. Like, L-I-K-E, credit? Like? Is that what you said?
A. Yes.
Q. Explain what he said.
A. He said you could like take out a credit card and then
issue the credit card a form letter saying you're paying them
in like credit and that they couldn't come after you, and so
like you'd get away with the money.
Q. Did he ever describe actually doing this?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Tell us about that conversation, what he said.
A. He said he had did it before, and he also said that Terry
Nichols had did it before.
Q. Did he tell you what names he used or anything else about
it?
A. No, not that I remember.
Q. What about the amount of money he obtained by this scheme?
A. I remember the amount of money Terry like obtained being
between 10- and $20,000, but I don't remember what Tim said --
like how much Tim obtained.
Q. Again, during this period of time in early 1995, when
McVeigh was staying in Kingman, did you have any further
discussion with him about his plans to bomb the federal
building in Oklahoma City?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us.
A. He told us that he was upset because Terry wanted out and
Terry did not want to mix the bomb; and he asked Michael to
help him.
Q. Anything further?
A. No. That's about it.
Q. What did Michael say?
A. No.
Q. Did he ask for any additional assistance?
A. Not that I remember.
Q. Did he discuss with you at any time his escape plan?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Tell us about that.
A. He was thinking about getting the car like away from the
building. He was going to run to the car, and then he was
planning on driving to Vegas; and what he wanted is he wanted
Michael to pick him up in Vegas and take him to a location that
would be somewhere outside of Kingman where he could hide out.
Q. And did Michael agree to do that?
A. No.
Q. During this period of time, how long did McVeigh live in
your house?
A. About a month.
Q. From when till when, approximately?
A. Mid February to mid March.
Q. And what did he do while he was living in your house?
A. He was really upset, and he just sat around the house most
of the time.
Q. Did you discuss his plans to blow up the building in
Oklahoma City?
A. No, not at all.
Q. Why was that?
A. Because I was under the impression it wasn't going to
happen because --
Q. Why did you have that impression?
A. Because no one wanted to help him, and he was upset, and I
didn't think anything was going to happen.
Q. Approximately when was it that he moved out of your house?
A. Late March, mid March to late March.
Q. You said that you had gone to a gun show with your husband
sometime during this period.
A. Yes.
Q. That was the gun show in Tucson?
A. Yes.
Q. Was McVeigh living in your house at the time you went to
the gun show?
A. Yes, he was; but he moved out like within a couple days
after that.
Q. And do you know why it was that he moved out?
A. Because we were all on bad terms.
Q. And after McVeigh moved out, where did he live?
A. He lived at a couple motels.
Q. How do you know that?
A. Because Michael had told me and I had seen him at one of
the motels.
Q. Tell us about the experience when you saw him at one of the
motels in 1995, after he moved out of your house.
A. It was the first week of April, and me and Michael went to
the Imperial Motel. Michael had a book that Tim had loaned
him. Tim said that he wanted Michael to read the book, and
Mike was giving the book back to him.
We were scared of Tim, so Mike brought his gun with
him at that time.
Q. Why were you afraid of Tim at that point?
A. Because like we weren't really friends anymore, and we were
really scared of him.
Q. What was it that scared you?
A. That he had told us everything about this, and we wanted
out; and we thought he'd kill us because he had told us about
it.
Q. Tell us about the meeting at the motel, then, that you and
Michael went to.
A. It was just a few minutes. We walked in, gave him the
book, and we left.
Q. And after that meeting, did you see McVeigh again in the
Kingman area?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Do you recall approximately when that meeting was?
A. The first week in April.
Q. Did you ever see McVeigh again until today after that
meeting at the Imperial Motel on the first week of April, 1995?
A. No.
Q. Do you see him today?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Could you describe what he's wearing?
A. He's wearing a blue shirt and khaki pants.
MR. HARTZLER: Your Honor, could the record reflect
the identification of the defendant?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Do you recall where you were on April 19, 1995?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Where were you?
A. In our house.
Q. Can you describe and tell us what happened that day?
A. We turned the news on early that morning, and we seen what
had happened.
Q. I'm sorry. I didn't hear you.
A. We seen what had happened.
Q. Well, tell us what you saw happen.
A. We saw that the building had been blown up, and I knew
right away that it was Tim.
Q. Had you ever discussed with McVeigh the significance of the
date of April 19?
A. Somewhat, but not really. On the previous like anniversary
of -- I guess it would be the first year, he had mentioned that
it was the anniversary, but that's it.
Q. Were you expecting the bombing to happen that day?
A. Not really. It crossed my mind that it -- like that might
be one of the days he was going to use, but that was before
when I thought he was possibly going to do it.
Q. When you saw the news of the building in Oklahoma City
having been bombed, did you feel any responsibility?
A. Yes.
Q. Why did you feel responsible?
A. Because I could have stopped it.
Q. Did you discuss the bombing with your husband?
A. Somewhat.
Q. You already indicated that you thought at that time that
you knew who had done it.
A. Yes.
Q. On that day when you saw the results of the bombing, did
you feel any responsibility to report what you knew?
A. Yes; but like that day, like I also saw like Janet Reno get
up and say that she was wanting the death penalty; and I was
scared for my family, so I didn't say anything.
Q. Why were you scared?
A. Because he had told us about it.
Q. But why were you scared that he had told you about it?
A. Because I felt responsible that he had told us about it and
I hadn't did anything.
Q. Did you follow news of the bombing after that?
A. Yes, somewhat.
Q. What did you hear?
A. That he had been arrested, stuff like that.
Q. Do you recall when you heard that McVeigh had been
arrested?
A. Yes. On April 21.
Q. That's two days after the bombing?
A. Yes.
Q. And before McVeigh was arrested, had you heard how the
bombing had been accomplished?
A. Yes.
Q. What had you heard?
A. That it was in a rental truck; that the bomb was placed in
a rental truck.
Q. Did you have any reaction to that news?
A. Yes, I did. I put it together in my head with the license
that I had laminated, so I went to the typewriter and I grabbed
the ribbon and I destroyed the ribbon.
Q. How?
A. By tearing the tape out, and then I burned the tape.
Q. Where?
A. In an ashtray in our kitchen.
Q. Why?
A. Because I was scared that we would be linked to Tim.
Q. Did you inspect that typewriter ribbon before you burnt it
in your kitchen?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you see?
A. The name Robert Kling.
Q. Were you contacted by law enforcement officers after the
bombing?
A. Yes.
Q. From what agency?
A. The FBI.
Q. Do you recall when you were first contacted?
A. The 21st of April.
Q. Before or after McVeigh was arrested?
A. Shortly after.
Q. So at the time you were contacted, you knew that McVeigh
was in custody?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you talk to the agents?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you alone?
A. No. Me and Michael the first occasion talked to the agents
together.
Q. Focusing just on that first contact, do you recall whether
you told the agents the truth about everything they asked?
A. No, we did not.
Q. Do you recall what statements you or your husband made that
were not truthful?
A. Yes; that we thought Tim wasn't capable of this.
Q. Anything further?
A. Yes; that we thought it was late February that he showed up
in the area. And there was a question about if Tim had any
explosives knowledge, and we told them that no, he didn't.
Q. So all three of those statements were false.
A. Yes.
Q. Why did you say that you didn't think McVeigh was involved?
A. Because I didn't want to implicate us. I was scared.
Q. Why did you say that McVeigh had not arrived in the Kingman
area until February of 1995?
A. Because I wanted to cover up the like gun shows.
Q. Explain that cover-up, would you?
A. They were sold like in that part of time, and I didn't want
like the agents to find out that we had sold stolen weapons
with Tim because that would like link us together.
Q. But why would the sale of stolen weapons be a problem in
comparison to the tragedy that occurred in Oklahoma City?
A. Just -- I didn't want to be linked to Tim in any way.
Q. You also said that you lied about having -- whether McVeigh
had knowledge of explosives?
A. Yes.
Q. What was it you said?
A. That he didn't have knowledge of explosives.
Q. And why did you say that?
A. Because I was scared. I didn't want to like implicate us
as knowing anything about it.
Q. After the 21st of April, when the FBI agents contacted you,
did you have any further contact with law enforcement agents?
A. Yes.
Q. FBI agents again?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall the next time?
A. The 22nd.
Q. The following day?
A. And the 23rd.
Q. You talked to them both the next day and the day after?
A. I think the next day, Michael talked to them alone; and
then on the 23rd, like I talked to them, too.
Q. What about the next day?
A. The 24th? I'm -- I don't think I talked to them on the
24th.
Q. Well --
A. Yes, I did. I'm sorry.
Q. So you had contact with FBI agents, or you and your husband
had some contact four days in a row?
A. Yes.
Q. Starting with the first day that McVeigh was arrested?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you always truthful during those contacts?
A. No.
Q. Let's go to the second contact. Do you recall what you
said or Michael said that you heard that was not truthful?
A. The second day, or the second contact?
Q. Second contact. When was the second contact?
A. On the 21st.
Q. So they talked to you twice that same day?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there -- were there new lies that you or Michael told?
A. No. About the same ones.
Q. Do you recall any specifically?
A. That I really didn't know Tim that much. That was a new
one. And that I didn't think he was capable.
Q. Why did you say those things?
A. Because I wanted to distance myself from him.
Q. Why did you want to distance yourself from McVeigh?
A. Because I knew he did it.
Q. Did you know at the time you spoke with the FBI agents that
you had a right to refuse to say anything that might tend to
incriminate you?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Why didn't you exercise that right?
A. Because if I thought -- I thought if I did that, they would
think I was more involved.
Q. So you thought it was better to lie to them than to not say
anything?
A. That's what we did, yes.
Q. Do you recall being asked by the agents if McVeigh -- you
thought McVeigh had the propensity to do the bombing?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you say?
A. That he didn't.
Q. Same reason you lied?
A. Yes.
Q. You also said you had -- you were contacted by the agents
on the 22nd and 23rd. You remember being interviewed on the
23rd of April.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you tell them more lies that day?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Do you recall any of the new lies?
A. That I didn't know why Michael went to Kansas; that me and
Michael were fighting at the time and he just took up -- he
just left.
Q. And why was it you told those lies?
A. Because I didn't want to be involved with the stolen gun.
Q. Do you recall any more lies that you told the FBI?
A. Not really, other than the same usual lies.
Q. Did they ever ask you about anything that McVeigh left at
your house?
A. Yes, they like did ask if he had ever like had any
explosives or anything in the house before. And I lied about
that.
Q. What did you say?
A. That he hadn't.
Q. What was the truth?
A. That he had. I had seen like an ammo can full of
explosives in the house.
Q. When had you seen that?
A. A few months previously.
Q. What explosives were in that ammo can?
A. There were some blasting caps and some other stuff I'm not
really sure the name of, but it was something you mix like one
part into the other part. And that's about it that I remember.
Q. And what happened to those explosives?
A. He gave them to Michael.
Q. Where were they when you were talking to the agents?
A. Michael had put them in his brother's house to get them out
of our house.
Q. To conceal them?
A. Huh?
Q. To conceal them?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the agents ever ask you if McVeigh had talked about
explosives?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you answer that question truthfully?
A. No, I did not.
Q. What did you say?
A. That he hadn't.
Q. And again, you lied for the same reason?
A. Yes.
Q. Prior to your testimony today, did you review interview --
the reports of the interviews the FBI had with you?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And have those assisted you in recalling the lies that you
told the FBI?
A. Yes, they have.
Q. Did there come a time when you and Michael got upset with
the agents?
A. Yes.
Q. Explain that to the jury, would you, please.
A. We thought that it was possible that the agents had
released our home address, so we went in one afternoon and we
were upset about it and we conveyed that; and we got into a
pretty good argument with them.
Q. Explain why you thought this.
A. Because Michael had refused to take a polygraph test, and I
thought that was their way at getting back at us for it.
Q. And explain why it was you thought they'd released your
address.
A. Because it was in like the Arizona Republic article of the
previous day.
Q. Describe the conversation or confrontation you had with the
agents.
A. We asked them if they did it, and they denied it. And
there was a bunch of arguments back and forth; and then we
pretty much ended up walking out of the room.
Q. Was -- go ahead. I didn't mean to interrupt.
A. That's all.
Q. Was this a fairly heated discussion?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. When did that occur?
A. On the 24th of April.
Q. After you had that confrontation with the agents, did you
have any further contact with them that you recall?
A. Yes, we had contact with them.
Q. Did they interview you in the following week after the 24th
of April?
A. No.
Q. During this period of time when you had this almost daily
and sometimes more than daily contact with FBI agents -- so I'm
talking about the period of April 21 and let's say the week
after -- were you and Michael contacted by any news reporters?
A. Yes, we were.
Q. Do you recall any of those contacts?
A. We were contacted by various people. Ones that stick out,
the CNN.
Q. Describe the contact that you or Michael had with CNN.
A. At one time, Michael did a CNN interview.
Q. Do you recall the date?
A. I believe it was on the 26th. I'm not really positive of
that, though.
Q. Tell us what happened.
A. Michael went on air and said a bunch of things about the
bombing.
Q. Tell us what you remember.
A. And about Tim.
He said that Tim was a friend of his and that he
didn't do anything, stuff to that lines.
Q. You knew that that was not true?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you overhear that statement that he made to CNN?
A. Yes. I was there.
Q. Did you ever make a statement to any news reporters?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you ever prepare a statement to make to news reporters?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. In what form did you prepare a statement?
A. I wrote out a couple of rough drafts of something that I
was thinking about giving to the newspapers.
Q. Explain that whole incident.
A. I thought that if I wrote some stuff and put it in the
newspaper that maybe they'd leave us alone for a while; so I
made a statement that said stuff that Tim wasn't involved and
stuff like that.
Q. What other stuff like that?
A. That I didn't think he fit the like composite sketch and
things like that.
Q. Did you think he fit the composite sketch?
A. He fit the sketch; but from what I remember him saying, he
didn't fit the heighth description. He had always told us he
was 6' 2".
Q. You don't know how tall he actually is?
A. No.
Q. And did you ever actually issue this press statement?
A. No, I did not.
Q. What did you do with it?
A. I sat (sic) it on our desk in the house.
Q. What happened to it?
A. It was eventually taken by the FBI agents who raided our
house on the 1st of May.
Q. Is that the statement that says, in part, "From knowing
him, I believe in no way that he was responsible for this
crime"?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Why would you write that?
A. Because I wanted to distance myself from Tim.
Q. And what was -- why did you want to distance yourself from
McVeigh?
A. Because he had told us about what he was planning to do.
Q. What was your concern?
A. That we would be implicated, also, for knowing about it.
Q. After you had this confrontation with the FBI agents, what
was the next thing that you expected to happen?
A. Our house to be searched.
Q. Why did you think that?
A. Because we left on bad terms and there were other people's
houses that were getting searched at the time.
Q. Other people being who?
A. Terry Nichols.
Q. Did you take any precautions?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Explain that.
A. We had some Waco tapes that we gave to our neighbor, Jim,
and there was also a rifle that we gave to Jim.
Q. Explain why that happened and where they came from.
A. They came from our house, and we just wanted to get them
out of the house.
Q. But why?
A. Because the Waco tapes is why Tim did it.
Q. Where did the Waco tapes come from?
A. From our house.
Q. Where did you get them?
A. From Tim.
Q. And what about this gun?
A. It was one of the guns that was stolen.
Q. Why was there any concern about that gun?
A. I -- we just gave it to Tim -- Jim.
Q. But I mean, did you have other guns in the house?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Were the other guns stolen?
A. Yes, some of them were.
Q. Do you have any recollection as to why that gun was
selected to give to your neighbor?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Did you take any other precautions in anticipation of the
search by FBI agents?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask the agents to notify you in advance of the
search?
A. Yes. I believe Michael asked them that when I was there.
Q. And do you know why?
A. Because we didn't want like Kayla to be hurt in a search or
have to see like them coming in our house.
Q. Were you ever notified that the agents had obtained
authority to search your house?
A. Yes, we were.
Q. Do you recall when that occurred?
A. Yes. May 1, they called us and --
Q. Go ahead.
A. They called us and told us to come to like the Mojave
County sheriff's substation, which is right by our house, and
told us that they had a search warrant and they'd give it to us
there.
Q. And what happened?
A. Later, just a few minutes later, they called back again;
and I answered the phone, and they asked me to unlock the front
door so they didn't have to break it down. So we left shortly
after that and we went to the substation.
Q. Were you told why you had to leave the house?
A. No, but I thought it was just so Kayla could be safe,
wouldn't have to see anything.
Q. How long after you notified -- you were notified did you
actually leave your house?
A. About 10 minutes.
Q. And what did you do during those 10 minutes?
A. We got the dog and we got Kayla and we got everything and
left.
Q. Did you have any drugs in the house at the time you were
notified of the search?
A. Not actual drugs.
Q. What did you have that was not actual drugs?
A. We had a pipe that we had smoked marijuana in before. It
was like a little tinfoil pipe that we -- that was thrown away
probably like three days previously. We just had it in the
trash.
Q. And did you -- were you worried about the agents who would
search your house finding that pipe?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Because I didn't think they wanted us on drug charges.
Q. Did you, in fact, leave your house?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Tell us what you did.
A. We drove to the substation and I dropped Michael off, and I
drove Kayla to where my mother works; and my mom took Kayla to
her house, and then I went back and waited for Michael.
Q. Did you later find out what the agents had taken from your
house?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us.
A. They had taken our tools, things to that nature,
anti-government literature that we had in the house; and that's
about all I remember. Some pictures, also.
Q. Well, what about the trash?
A. Oh, yes. They had took the trash, too.
Q. Was that a concern?
A. No.
Q. Explain that.
A. I wasn't really like concerned about like a drug charge; I
was more worried about what was happening now.
Q. Did -- at the time of the search, were there still some of
the stolen guns in the closet or someplace in the house?
A. Yes, there were.
Q. Did the agents seize any of those guns?
A. No, they did not.
Q. Were you concerned about the agents finding the stolen
guns?
A. Yes.
Q. Why didn't you do anything to get rid of them?
A. Because at the time we were under surveillance, and we
couldn't really like walk outside with all the guns to get rid
of them; so we just left them in the house and took the chance
that they wouldn't come back stolen.
Q. After McVeigh was arrested during this time when you
anticipated your house would be searched, did you have any
concerns that your telephone was being tapped?
A. Yes.
Q. What were your concerns?
A. We thought it was tapped like from the very beginning when
they showed up.
Q. Did you continue to use your phone?
A. Yes.
Q. Even though you suspect it was tapped?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you later find out that in fact your phone was tapped?
A. Yes.
Q. How much later?
A. Oh, a long time later.
Q. Were your conversations more guarded than usual as a result
of your concern?
A. Not really.
Q. Why not?
A. Because we were lying to everybody.
Q. What do you mean by that?
A. We were telling everybody the same lies that we were
telling the FBI: that we didn't think Tim had anything to do
with it.
Q. Did you say anything or do you know that anything was said
during these telephone conversations to indicate that you
suspected you were being tapped?
A. Yes.
Q. What?
A. We said -- I said stuff like the phone is being tapped,
like listening two ways. Once when Norma was -- I was recorded
on her answering machine. I called Norma and her answering
machine was going, and we like had a discussion about how the
like phone was being tapped two ways.
Q. Norma is your friend?
A. Yes.
Yes. Sorry.
Q. Did you lie to people other than the FBI and the news --
you didn't lie to the news reporters, but you prepared the
draft press release that contained lies. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. You said that you were not concerned about having your
telephone tapped because you were lying to everyone anyway.
A. Yes.
Q. Who else did you lie to?
A. My parents, Michael's parents, our friends, Matt and
Michelle; Norma. Pretty much everybody we had contact with.
Q. What lies did you tell these people?
A. That we didn't think Tim was involved.
Q. In addition to suspecting your phones were tapped, did you
suspect that the FBI had other means of surveillance on you?
A. Yes. We thought our house was bugged, also.
Q. Any others?
A. We thought like at sometime that our car -- my mom's car
was bugged, and we also thought our Jeep was bugged.
Q. Any other means of surveillance you suspected?
A. No. We were always like under constant surveillance when
we went anywhere. There was always agents following us, but
nothing other than that.
Q. Were they obvious?
A. Yes.
Q. So you could see that you were being followed wherever you
would go?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall the period of time that that surveillance was
conducted?
A. Pretty much right after the bombing until we came to
Oklahoma.
Q. Okay. We'll get to that trip to Oklahoma in a moment,
so -- but this was for a period of --
A. About a month.
Q. Did you ever try to find a bug or hidden microphone in your
house?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Were you successful?
A. No.
Q. Did you later learn that in fact there was a bug in your
house?
A. Yes.
Q. And have you listened to tape recordings of conversations
that you had both -- by telephone that were wiretapped and in
your house that were recorded by means of a hidden microphone?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And in any of those conversations, is there any indication
that someone is looking for the hidden microphone?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. Do you recall that conversation?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was it that looked for the microphone?
A. I had talked about how I had previously looked for the
microphone.
Q. Do you now know when the microphone was placed in your
house?
A. Yes, I do. In the first of May, when they went in for the
search.
Q. After your house was searched, did you have any further
contact with the FBI agents?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall that contact?
A. They came to give us our subpoenas.
Q. Can you explain that for us, please.
A. First, the agent came by to subpoena Michael, and they --
he talked with Michael for a little while; and then a couple
days later, they subpoenaed me and they changed Michael's date.
Q. And not everyone in here is familiar what you mean by "they
subpoenaed me," so explain.
A. They subpoenaed us to talk at the grand jury in Oklahoma
City.
Q. All right. And so this was for your personal appearance in
Oklahoma City.
A. Yes.
Q. You were compelled to travel to Oklahoma City to appear
before a grand jury?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall the date that you were initially required to
appear?
A. Yes. May 18.
Q. Of course, 1995. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. At that time, did you have an attorney?
A. No, I did not.
Q. What was your response to the subpoena?
A. We were scared.
Q. What did you do?
A. We came to Oklahoma City and we obtained lawyers.
Q. When did you leave?
A. I believe it was on the 16th of May.
Q. Why was it you were scared when you received the grand jury
subpoena?
A. Because things were getting much more serious.
Q. Do you recall how you travelled to Oklahoma City?
A. Yes. We drove.
Q. Tell us about that trip to Oklahoma City when you were
subpoenaed.
A. We drove to Oklahoma City on the 16th, and I think we
stayed somewhere outside Oklahoma City that night, just a few
miles outside. The next morning, we like got up and we drove
into Oklahoma City. We went out to breakfast and we discussed
like if we should come forward and what we should do.
Q. This is you and your husband, Michael?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you come to any resolve?
A. Yes. We wanted to get lawyers and correct our statements.
Q. So what did you do?
A. We got a motel room in Oklahoma City and we called like two
FBI agents and had them come out to the motel.
Q. Tell us what happened.
A. They got there, and we told them that we wanted to correct
our statements.
Q. What caused you to want to change your statement?
A. Because I had to testify the next day, and I didn't want to
have to lie on the stand. I wanted to like come forward and
say what I knew.
Q. Again, did you know at that time that you could refuse to
testify to anything that might tend to incriminate you?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you consider that an option?
A. Not really. I thought that if I did that, I'd be placed in
jail.
Q. So tell us what happened, then, after you called the
agents.
A. They came out and we talked to them for a few minutes; and
then we asked the agents to leave. And then me and Michael
discussed between ourselves again like if we should really talk
to them and what we should do.
Then the agents came back about an hour later, and we
began to correct our statements.
Q. How long did you talk to the agents?
A. It was for a while. An hour or so. I'm not really sure on
the time.
Q. And then what happened?
A. One of the agents called and contacted a lawyer.
Q. Why?
A. Because I had requested a lawyer for the previous -- or the
next day.
Q. The next day was what?
A. My grand jury like subpoena day.
Q. Okay. So I take it you had asked the agent for a lawyer?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that right?
And who did the agent contact?
A. Mack Martin was appointed to represent me, and he called me
that night.
Q. So you talked to an attorney that evening from the motel
room?
A. Yes. Me and Michael did.
Q. Now, don't tell us what your attorney told you, because
that's a privileged communication; but as a result of your
conversation with your attorney, what happened?
A. We stopped talking to the agents, and I went to see the
attorney the next morning.
Q. Again, don't tell us about your conversation with your
attorney, but what happened after that?
A. We -- I talked with the attorney, and we decided to meet
with the U.S. Government like prosecutors and tell them what I
knew.
Q. You were scheduled for the grand jury the following day; is
that right?
A. Yes.
Q. That same morning you met with an attorney?
A. Yes.
Q. And was that attorney appointed to represent you?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Did you appear before the grand jury that day?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Why not?
A. Because I -- I'm not sure, really. I just didn't.
Q. You turned the matter over to your attorney to handle?
A. Yes.
Q. And you said that after you were represented by an
attorney, then you had meetings with government officials. Is
that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And during those meetings, were you interviewed?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Were there any terms or conditions to those interviews that
you or your attorney required?
A. Yes. They were under proffer letters.
Q. Explain the arrangement to the jury, if you would.
A. That means that I couldn't be prosecuted for what I told
them at that moment.
Q. And when you met with the government officials, was your
attorney present?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Did you provide truthful information during those meetings?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you eventually provide information to the grand jury?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Do you remember when that was?
A. I believe it was the 8th of August, 1995.
Q. So between May and August of '95, what happened during that
period of time?
A. We were back and forth from Kingman to Oklahoma City, and
we were meeting with government officials.
Q. And after you testified before the grand jury, what
happened?
A. I went home to Kingman, Arizona.
Q. Did your husband go home?
A. No, my husband did not go home.
Q. What happened to him?
A. He was taken into federal custody.
Q. Had he been indicted by the grand jury?
A. Yes -- no, he hadn't -- yeah -- well, I guess he had, but
it was like on different charges, not the charges of the
bombing.
Q. When you testified before the grand jury, was there any
kind of condition under which you testified?
A. Yes. I testified under immunity.
Q. Can you describe what your understanding of immunity is?
A. Anything I say like can't be used against me, unless I
don't tell the truth.
Q. And what happens if you don't tell the truth?
A. I'd be prosecuted for perjury.
Q. And are you testifying here today also under an order of
immunity?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. How did that come about?
A. I went this morning and got a grant of immunity.
Q. When you say you went, sounds like you went to a store.
A. I went in front of a judge this morning and got a grant of
immunity.
Q. You went before Judge Matsch?
A. No.
Q. Tell us about the experience.
A. I went up there and my lawyer talked for me, and I got
immunity.
Q. Okay. Your lawyer -- you just nodded to -- he's in the
courtroom today?
A. Yes.
Q. You mentioned that prior to the search of your house, you
and your husband had thrown away -- I think you described it's
a tinfoil pipe you had used to smoke marijuana. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And that that was in the trash when the FBI agents seized
your trash.
A. Yes.
Q. I believe you said you weren't concerned because the least
of your worries was a drug possession charge. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you used any illegal drugs since you and your husband
travelled to Oklahoma City to appear before the grand jury back
in May of 1995?
A. No, I have not.
Q. Had you used any illegal drugs before that?
A. Yes.
Q. How frequently had you used illegal substances?
A. At what time?
Q. Well, you tell us.
A. Probably in '95, I had used like drugs on a weekly basis;
but before that, it was less frequent.
Q. What kind of drugs have you used?
A. Speed or methamphetamine and marijuana. I have did acid a
few times, and I had taken mushrooms once.
Q. What are mushrooms?
A. They're hallucinogenic drugs.
Q. When did you take mushrooms?
A. While I was in high school once.
Q. Only once?
A. Yes.
Q. Acid, you said you used a few times?
A. Yes, probably about five times.
Q. When was the last time?
A. Oh, probably in 1993.
Q. And you said you used marijuana.
A. Yes.
Q. With what regularity?
A. Every few months.
Q. You also said that you used speed or methamphetamine.
That's the same -- that's the same drug?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. How often did you use speed?
A. In 1995, I used it probably weekly. Before that, every
couple weeks.
Q. Okay.
A. Monthly.
Q. Pardon me?
A. Every couple weeks, or monthly before that.
Q. You referred to 1995; but you indicated you've not used it
since your trip to Oklahoma City, which was May of '95?
A. Yes. The early part of 1995.
Q. Why did you stop using drugs?
A. Because things in my life got a lot seriouser (sic) once I
travelled to Oklahoma City.
Q. Why was that?
A. Because of everything that was happening and because of the
bombing.
Q. Did you find it fairly easy to lie to the FBI agents in
your meetings with them in Kingman?
A. No, not really, because all the whole time I wanted to tell
the truth.
Q. Why didn't you tell the truth?
A. Because I was scared for my family.
Q. And for yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. What were you afraid might happen to you?
A. That like we might be prosecuted because we knew something
about it.
Q. When did you first meet me?
A. In probably June of '95.
Q. Was your attorney present?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. And approximately how many times have we met since then?
A. Approximately ten, give or take a few.
Q. Has your attorney been present at most of those meetings?
A. Yes, most of them.
Q. And what have we done when we've met?
A. You've questioned me various times, like direct questions,
just like this. We've also went over like all the 302's.
Q. What are 302's?
A. The FBI reports of what I said to them. We went over the
transcripts and the tapes of both the phone and the house bug,
and we went over our financial records.
Q. Okay. We're going to talk about some of your financial
records in a minute because -- Why are we going to do that?
A. Because they reflect some dates.
Q. Have you ever met with any of the attorneys representing
Mr. McVeigh?
A. No, I have not.
Q. Why not?
A. Because my lawyers advised me not to.
Q. You indicated that you have reviewed some of your
financial -- personal financial records --
A. Yes.
Q. -- before you arrived here today.
I'm going to show you some of those records; but
first, I think the first exhibit -- I'm going to get some
assistance here. Do you have a folder of exhibits in front of
you?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. The first exhibit in your folder should be Government's
Exhibit 241.
A. Yes.
Q. Would you look through that.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you recognize it?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is that?
A. It's my check register.
MR. HARTZLER: Your Honor, I move the admission of
Government's Exhibit 241.
MR. NIGH: May we have just a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. JONES: No objection.
THE COURT: 241 received.
MR. HARTZLER: Could we publish that to the jury?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Now, did you review your check register and some other
financial records to assist you in recalling certain dates?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you remember that you explained to us that McVeigh had
come back in September of 1994, after you and Michael had
received the letter in which he said that he was prepared to
take action.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall that?
And do you recall that you testified that there was a
meeting in your living room in which McVeigh said that he was
going to bomb a federal building without identifying the
building?
A. Yes.
Q. Right?
Can you better tell us the time that that meeting or
the date that that meeting took place by reference to this
exhibit, Government's Exhibit 241?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. Please explain that.
A. Okay. Because on 9-16, there is an ATM withdrawal for $120
from our account.
Q. Okay.
A. It's to reimburse Tim for an electric deposit from when he
lived in the block house in Golden Valley.
Q. He lived there after your wedding in July and stayed with
you and then moved in August of 1994.
A. Yes.
Q. So this was a month after he left the area?
A. Yes.
Q. Go ahead.
A. We like -- I went to the electric company, and I had them
send the deposit to his mail drop, I think; and then when Tim
got there, he signed over the checks to us and we gave him cash
for it.
Q. Okay. And this record that's in front of you, in front of
the jury, assists your memory of the dates because of what?
A. Because it says there was a withdrawal on 9-16 for Tim for
an electric deposit.
Q. Okay. This may be a little tricky, and I'm not the one to
assist; but there is a pen on your -- can you pick that up and
just use it to circle what you are referring to on this
exhibit?
A. Do it directly on the computer?
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Underneath --
THE WITNESS: Whoa. How do I erase that?
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. We've had that problem before. Click the pen and try it
again more slowly.
Well, you can do it faster than that.
Okay. Okay. And can you -- it's a little dark on my
screen. Can you read the entire entry that you just circled?
A. Yes. It says, "ATM, 9-16 withdrawal, Tim elec. deposit for
$120."
Q. Okay. Thank you. And the 9-16 is consistent with your
memory of the time that McVeigh returned to Kingman for a few
days after you and Michael had received the letter. Is that
right?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Okay. I'd like to show you now the next exhibit in your
folder, which should be Government's Exhibit -- without showing
it to the jury. Just put that aside and pick up the next one,
248. It may not be the next in order. It should be a
photograph. Do you see that photograph?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. When is the first time you saw that photograph?
A. About two days ago.
Q. And it's not a photograph that you've taken?
A. No, it's not.
Q. Can you identify the person in that photograph?
A. Yes. It's Tim McVeigh.
MR. HARTZLER: Are we on the screen? I didn't mean to
be.
I move the admission of Government's Exhibit 248.
MR. JONES: No objection.
THE COURT: 248 received.
MR. HARTZLER: Is it on the screen now?
Could we publish it to the jury?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. HARTZLER: Thank you.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. You told us that when you -- I believe -- why don't you
remind me when it was that McVeigh had arrived with the scruffy
appearance.
A. When he came the first time in October.
Q. This is the time he arrived with Nichols?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was following the telephone call to look for a
storage unit?
A. Yes.
Q. I believe you said that he was wearing a bandana and you
described the bandana.
A. Yes.
Q. Does this appear to be the bandana that he was wearing?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And when you saw him, did he have on sunglasses?
A. The second time I saw him, when he came to pick up
something out of the car, he did, I believe.
Q. You did not take this photograph, obviously, since you only
saw it two days ago. Right?
A. No, I did not take this.
Q. And do you know where this photograph comes from?
A. No, I do not.
Q. I believe you said that he had a scruffy appearance on this
occasion in October of '94 when he arrived with Nichols.
A. Yes.
Q. Is his appearance in this photograph similar to the
appearance that you saw?
A. His face was a lot -- his facial hair was a lot more grown
out at the time when I seen him, but this is the same outfit.
Q. All right. This is a -- when he arrived with this
appearance, this scruffy appearance, different than in the
photograph but with the Harley Davidson bandana, that's the
week that you and McVeigh and your husband met in your living
room and he described in detail his bomb plans. Is that right?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And are you able by reference to any of your own personal
records to better date that time period?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. What would you need to refer to?
A. My GM card statement shows like when I cash-advanced my
credit card for the gun that we bought at the gun show.
Q. Look at the next exhibit in your folder. You have
Government's Exhibit 240.
A. Yes.
Q. And 240A?
A. Yes.
Q. What are those?
A. My GM card statement. One is a statement that I actually
paid the credit card from, and the other is like a statement
with the top portion still attached.
MR. HARTZLER: I move the admission of Government's
Exhibit 240 and 240A.
MR. JONES: No objection.
THE COURT: They are received, 240 and 240A.
MR. HARTZLER: And may we publish?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Looking first at I think 240A -- I'm sorry -- it's 240 --
does that reflect your name and your address as of that date?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. In October of 1994? Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And again, trying to use that tricky light pen, could you
draw a circle around the entry that reflects the information
that assists you in dating this visit by McVeigh?
Good job.
I'm not sure we can zoom in on that, but can you read
across the line?
A. Do you want me to read the credit card number?
Q. No, no, you can --
A. It says, "Posting date of 10-13, expiration" -- or
"Transaction date of 10-9, cash, First Interstate Bank,
Kingman, Arizona, $600."
Q. And this reflects a cash withdrawal that you made?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Do you recall making that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you recall the date of the -- the day of the week that
you did that?
A. It was on a Sunday, I believe.
Q. And that's the money that you withdrew for what purpose?
A. To buy a Mini-14 at the gun show.
Q. For how much?
A. $600.
Q. And tell us again: That gun show was the gun show in
Kingman?
A. Yes, that Tim had a table at.
Q. Now, did you make that withdrawal on the same date that you
purchased that gun?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did that gun show on a weekend come before, or after the
meeting that you had with McVeigh when he diagrammed his bomb
plan for you and your husband?
A. A few days after.
Q. The gun show was after the incident where he diagrammed --
A. Yes.
Q. -- the bomb. Very well.
I believe that you said that McVeigh returned after
that --
A. Yes.
Q. -- early October, and you recall that date because you know
that you and your husband purchased a Jeep on Halloween of
1994 --
A. Yes.
Q. -- correct?
And the next time you saw McVeigh, not the next time
you had a telephone conversation, but the next time you saw
him, I believe you said, was in December of 1994, when you met
him at a motel.
A. Yes.
Q. And that's the incident when you had the blasting caps and
there was an exchange of a rifle stock for a Mini-14, or
something like that.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you review your records and find any entry that assists
you in dating that meeting?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. In addition to your husband's birthday?
A. Yes.
Q. What was that record?
A. The record that we wrote a check to Wal-Mart on that day.
Q. So it's the same check register we looked at a moment ago?
A. Yes.
Q. Same page?
A. No.
Q. Well, can you refer us to the page? How many pages into
the document?
A. On the 12th page, I believe.
Q. Okay.
MR. HARTZLER: We're going to publish that page, your
Honor, with your permission.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Again, using the light pencil, which you're now adept at,
can you circle the entry that reflects the date that you went
to Wal-Mart?
Well, you were adept at it.
Here you go.
A. I saved it.
Q. And could you read across the line?
A. Yes. 1612 was the check number, dated 12-14.
Q. And that's the date that you went to the Wal-Mart?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Also the day before your husband's birthday?
A. Yes, it is. It says, "Wal-Mart, 15.95."
Q. Do you recall what it was you purchased at Wal-Mart?
A. Yes. Tape; and I believe there was wrapping paper, also.
Q. And did that purchase come to 15.95, as you recall?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you look in your folder and find Government's Exhibit
196.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have that exhibit in front of you?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you identify that?
A. Yes. It's the Mojave Inn that we met Tim at.
MR. HARTZLER: I move the admission of Government's
Exhibit 196.
MR. JONES: No objection.
THE COURT: 196 received, and you may publish it.
MR. HARTZLER: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. I think you have to draw back from the -- there you go.
Please tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what
we're looking at in this photograph.
A. We're looking at the entrance of the Mojave Inn; and in the
background, there is the rooms.
Q. And do you recall which room it was that McVeigh rented?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Point it out with the light stick.
A. It's the corner room right here on the end.
Q. And again, this Mojave Inn is the motel that you and
Michael visited in December of 1994?
A. Yes.
Q. Had the meeting in which there was an exchange of coins and
a stock and you wrapped the blasting caps. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Your next exhibit should be another photograph. Do you see
that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. It's Government's Exhibit No. 135. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And can you describe what's in that?
A. Yes. It's a picture of blasting caps.
Q. Is there anything in those -- the blasting caps depicted
there that's different than the blasting caps that you saw?
A. No, there is not.
Q. But you have no way of knowing whether those are the ones
that you wrapped, do you?
A. No.
MR. HARTZLER: Your Honor, I move it for demonstrative
purposes only, Government's Exhibit 135.
MR. JONES: Your Honor, we object.
THE COURT: Let me see the exhibit.
Objection sustained.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. I believe you said that it was in approximately February,
the first half of February, before your daughter Kayla's
birthday in 1995 that McVeigh had come to you while he was
living in a motel and asked to borrow your typewriter.
A. Yes.
Q. He then returned and showed you a completed driver -- fake
driver's license. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. With the name Robert Kling?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. I want to show you or ask you to look at
Government's Exhibit 224.
A. Yes.
Q. See that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And do you see a driver's license form, a blank form -- not
a completed driver's license, but a blank form -- similar to
what you saw when he gave you the one that had been
typewritten?
A. Yes.
MR. HARTZLER: Your Honor, I'd move the admission
of -- pardon me. I need to ask some other questions.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. You had also indicated that you saw other identification
forms in your house that had been on the desk for a matter
of -- for some time. Is that right?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Are those similar to the forms that you observed?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Is there anything different about the forms you are looking
at than the ones that you saw in your house?
A. Yes. They're not in color.
Q. Well, you have copies. That's why.
MR. HARTZLER: Your Honor, may we approach and show
her the originals?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Yes, these are the same.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Those appear to be the same forms?
A. Yes.
MR. HARTZLER: I move the admission of Government's
Exhibit 224.
MR. JONES: We object, your Honor.
THE COURT: I don't understand. They appear to be the
same form. Is that what you're saying?
THE WITNESS: Yes, they are the same forms.
THE COURT: That's different.
MR. HARTZLER: They're --
THE COURT: Which is it? Are these the same forms?
THE WITNESS: They appear to be the same forms. They
look just like the ones.
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Finally, I want to show you what's been marked as
Government's Exhibit 263. Can you look in your folder and find
that.
A. Yes.
Q. What is that?
A. It's a picture of the Imperial Motel.
MR. HARTZLER: I move the admission of Government's
Exhibit 263.
MR. JONES: May I have just a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. JONES: No objection.
THE COURT: 263 is received.
You may publish it.
MR. HARTZLER: Thank you.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Again, using your light pen, can you show -- first of all,
this is the motel that McVeigh was staying in -- well, you tell
us whether this motel McVeigh was staying in.
A. This is the last motel that I saw Tim at.
Q. This is the motel from which he departed to Kansas, from
the Kingman area?
A. Yes, in April.
Q. In April of '95?
A. Yes.
Q. How long prior to the bombing did you see him?
A. A week, maybe.
Q. And this is the place that you and Michael went and handed
back the book --
A. Yes.
Q. -- that you described.
Does this picture reflect the room that he was staying
in?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Can you use your light pen and circle that room?
A. It was the corner room, right there, on the -- it was the
corner room on the top floor.
Q. All right. Thank you. You can put that aside.
You testified here today that McVeigh told you about a
robbery that he intended to commit or have Nichols commit in
support of the bombing. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you testified that he gave you tremendous amount of
detail about his plans to commit a bombing in Oklahoma City?
MR. JONES: If your Honor please, I'm going to object
to the summary; leading.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. HARTZLER: Thank you.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Did you or Michael react to any of this information as it
was communicated to you?
A. React in which way? What do you mean?
Q. Did you say anything?
A. No.
Q. Did he ever ask you for your help?
A. Yes. He asked Michael.
Q. Did Michael say he was willing to help?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did you ever say anything to indicate that you were not
willing to help?
A. That I was not willing to help? No, I never said anything.
Q. Did you ever say anything to him to indicate that you did
not approve of this plan?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Did you ever say anything to indicate you disapproved of
his plan?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever say anything to indicate that you approved of
his plan?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you approve of his plan?
A. No.
Q. Why didn't you say anything?
A. Because I guess on some level, I -- Tim was my friend and I
thought that he wasn't capable of it at that time. I don't
know.
Q. He told you that he had the materials. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. He diagrammed the bomb. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. He told you what his target was. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. He indicated he was capable, didn't he?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Why did you think he wasn't?
A. Because I guess on some level I was in denial that he
really was capable of this.
Q. You recognize today that you could have stopped this from
happening, do you not?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you feel responsible?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Why do you think you didn't stop it?
A. I don't know. I mean, I wish I could have stopped it now.
If I could do it all over again, I would have.
|
